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Posted: 1/23/2018 3:32:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those German paratroopers that took Crete. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 3:36:20 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 1/23/2018 3:51:38 PM EDT
[#3]
I think a distinction needs to be made between pre gunpowder and after. I'd also say pre stirrup and after.
Tech impacts warfare. Success is also the true measure of effectiveness. pre gunpowder footsoldiers as a unit? Romans. pre stirrup cavalry? Macedonian companions. stirrup cavalry? Mongols. Individual pre gunpowder fighting solo? Knight. Gun toting modern infantry? WWII US Army and Marines, both of the Pacific theatre. ETA: Honorable mention, Spanish Conquistadors |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 4:15:07 PM EDT
[#4]
ZULU....they grew up to be warriors.
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Posted: 1/23/2018 4:18:40 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ZULU....they grew up to be warriors. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 4:36:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Greek culture was already warrior focused, don't let all the philosophy and "sciences" fool anyone, compared to outsiders, the Greeks were seen as nothing more than completely warlike barbarians, warriors. Among them the Spartans were the most martial, their entire culture was devoted entirely to war. Not to the science of producing a hoplite army, but to producing warriors. Spartan society wasn't designed to dominate in hoplite vs hoplite warfare, that's where the disparity comes from, the confusion. Spartiates and Spartan society wasn't geared to creating super soldiers, merely a warrior culture. So if not for hoplite vs hoplite, why did Sparta do it? Necessity. Early on Sparta conquered its neighbor, Messenia. The population was completely enslaved by the Spartans, turned into essentially a permanent class of field hands, serfs. However, as any culture who practices large scale slavery can attest, revolts are always a pressing concern. And it was that threat, constant worry about slave uprisings, plus normal Doric martial culture, plus the freedom of no longer having to individually sow or plow or harvest, that allowed the Spartans to focus on warfare and martial training. Thus the laws of the possibly mythical Lycurgus, who the Spartans believed was the one who instituted all the reforms that transformed their society into the martial state it became. The point that a few other successful Greek city states could be victorious in battle, later even against Spartan hoplites, while essentially doing it all as weekend warriors has some truth to it. But for many hundreds of years the Spartans were essentially unbeatable on land; so while the Athenians might be able to defeat the Persians without resorting to Spartan measures, when fighting the Spartans themselves on land they were largely losing. Even in those times when the Spartans did lose battles, it was rarely a significant loss and often there were some rather large extenuating circumstances involved. It wasn't until they were getting beat fair and square, mano e mano, that their power really started waning. But a lot of that had to do with social problems inside their own society. Land ownership issues coupled with declining number of full Spartiates. More successful slave revolts. Massive loss of life in the 5th Century BC earthquakes that they never really recovered from. Want to see how successful Spartans were and their lifestyle? After the peace with Athens following their defeat, when the Tyrants still ran Athens and democracy was banished, the Spartans opened up the agoge to select families of the elite of Athens. And a shit load of them took it up, sending their children to Sparta to get that training. It wasn't boot camp in the sense that it was training them to fight conventional wars, it was simply the most extreme form of child rearing available to the open classes. While any Greek could independently raise their child near identically to the Spartan Agoge, the latter was state run; family WAS NOT ALLOWED TO RAISE THEIR OWN SONS. Only the state was allowed. It was the same with infanticide. Something all Greek peoples did (basically all ancient did it), with the Spartans it too was a state prerogative; the parents had zero say, the Euphors, elected officials, made the call whether or not to toss the baby into a gorge for the wolves to eat. Spartans were the least free Greeks out there, a more miserable, son-of-a-bitch group of people in history are hard to find. The closest comparison to them are the North Koreans. While great warriors, they were horrible human beings. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 4:46:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ummm with the exception of the Spartans, weren't the Greeks farmers a lot of the time and only mustered armies as needed? |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 4:52:07 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm going to go with every warrior, most of whom are largely unknown to history, who laid down their life for their people.
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Posted: 1/23/2018 4:53:43 PM EDT
[#9]
I'll go with the knights templar since all the discussion is on either spartans or modern SOF. In part because they were completely nuts.
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:01:21 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ummm with the exception of the Spartans, weren't the Greeks farmers a lot of the time and only mustered armies as needed? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Greek culture was already warrior focused, don't let all the philosophy and "sciences" fool anyone, compared to outsiders, the Greeks were seen as nothing more than completely warlike barbarians, warriors. Among them the Spartans were the most martial, their entire culture was devoted entirely to war. Not to the science of producing a hoplite army, but to producing warriors. Spartan society wasn't designed to dominate in hoplite vs hoplite warfare, that's where the disparity comes from, the confusion. Spartiates and Spartan society wasn't geared to creating super soldiers, merely a warrior culture. So if not for hoplite vs hoplite, why did Sparta do it? Necessity. Early on Sparta conquered its neighbor, Messenia. The population was completely enslaved by the Spartans, turned into essentially a permanent class of field hands, serfs. However, as any culture who practices large scale slavery can attest, revolts are always a pressing concern. And it was that threat, constant worry about slave uprisings, plus normal Doric martial culture, plus the freedom of no longer having to individually sow or plow or harvest, that allowed the Spartans to focus on warfare and martial training. Thus the laws of the possibly mythical Lycurgus, who the Spartans believed was the one who instituted all the reforms that transformed their society into the martial state it became. The point that a few other successful Greek city states could be victorious in battle, later even against Spartan hoplites, while essentially doing it all as weekend warriors has some truth to it. But for many hundreds of years the Spartans were essentially unbeatable on land; so while the Athenians might be able to defeat the Persians without resorting to Spartan measures, when fighting the Spartans themselves on land they were largely losing. Even in those times when the Spartans did lose battles, it was rarely a significant loss and often there were some rather large extenuating circumstances involved. It wasn't until they were getting beat fair and square, mano e mano, that their power really started waning. But a lot of that had to do with social problems inside their own society. Land ownership issues coupled with declining number of full Spartiates. More successful slave revolts. Massive loss of life in the 5th Century BC earthquakes that they never really recovered from. Want to see how successful Spartans were and their lifestyle? After the peace with Athens following their defeat, when the Tyrants still ran Athens and democracy was banished, the Spartans opened up the agoge to select families of the elite of Athens. And a shit load of them took it up, sending their children to Sparta to get that training. It wasn't boot camp in the sense that it was training them to fight conventional wars, it was simply the most extreme form of child rearing available to the open classes. While any Greek could independently raise their child near identically to the Spartan Agoge, the latter was state run; family WAS NOT ALLOWED TO RAISE THEIR OWN SONS. Only the state was allowed. It was the same with infanticide. Something all Greek peoples did (basically all ancient did it), with the Spartans it too was a state prerogative; the parents had zero say, the Euphors, elected officials, made the call whether or not to toss the baby into a gorge for the wolves to eat. Spartans were the least free Greeks out there, a more miserable, son-of-a-bitch group of people in history are hard to find. The closest comparison to them are the North Koreans. While great warriors, they were horrible human beings. Farmers can be the most warlike people in the world. Ancient Greeks were. They farmed, at the same time they loved war, every summer was not only the harvest but also the campaign season. If they were healthy, they served and they mostly wanted to serve. Not only did it defend hearth and home, but it allowed the individual to gain reputation, riches, an eternal name for themselves. This was the real reason the Greeks dominated the Persians and other outsiders, they were simply much much more warlike than the Persians had become in the 5th-4th century BC. And when the Greeks themselves started losing that warlike quality, they too were subjugated by a new extremely martial people, the Macedonians. And when the Macedonians stopped being utterly warlike, they were conquered by the Romans, who were EXTREMELY martial people (and also farmers). It could and was argued that without something back home to defend, property, any full time warrior was thus a mercenary, who could usually not be trusted. Thus the only real warriors to be counted on were farmers. (Note, as a Southern plantation owner of the 1850s American could attest, being a farmer didn't mean doing nothing but backbreaking labor, the ancient farm was run largely through slave labor, regardless of the peoples or time, it was just how farming was done). |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:09:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going to go with every warrior, most of whom are largely unknown to history, who laid down their life for their people. 
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:12:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Polish troops at battle of Wizna. Few hundred guys held up like 40,000 Germans including tanks planes and artillery for 3 days.
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:27:05 PM EDT
[#13]
The mighty United States Army.
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:31:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Confederate soldier 
too bad they weren't better bad ass warriors, they could have won. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:35:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Want to talk history? What material support was Persia giving Sparta that allowed them to defeat the Athenians? It had nothing to do with ground combat, it was money to build ships. The battle of Leuctra was fought nearly 500 years after the reforms of Lycurgus. Half a millennium. And before that battle Spartan culture was already starting to collapse on itself; Leuctra was the result of that, not the start of it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
And after all that they still weren’t exactly leaps and bounds ahead of other Greek hoplites. At the battle of 300 champions they didn’t even win against Argos, 1 spartan left standing and 2 from Argos. I’m not saying they weren’t good, but they weren’t overall any better than their peers, as the mythos around them likes to claim. The only wall Sparta had was a "wall of men". Afterward when they didn't they got their teeth kicked in by a smaller army. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra Not saying that the Spartans weren't a formidable force, but there's a lot of myth around them. Most people quote the myths as opposed to the history. The battle of Leuctra was fought nearly 500 years after the reforms of Lycurgus. Half a millennium. And before that battle Spartan culture was already starting to collapse on itself; Leuctra was the result of that, not the start of it. At their height Sparta was the B squad that Persia used to destabilize the real threat in the region. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:35:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Facts and reading of history not your strong suit? It's ok, there's always shit posting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Confederate soldier
too bad they weren't better bad ass warriors, they could have won. 
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:35:44 PM EDT
[#17]
According to feminists
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:37:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ummm with the exception of the Spartans, weren't the Greeks farmers a lot of the time and only mustered armies as needed? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Greek culture was already warrior focused, don't let all the philosophy and "sciences" fool anyone, compared to outsiders, the Greeks were seen as nothing more than completely warlike barbarians, warriors. Among them the Spartans were the most martial, their entire culture was devoted entirely to war. Not to the science of producing a hoplite army, but to producing warriors. Spartan society wasn't designed to dominate in hoplite vs hoplite warfare, that's where the disparity comes from, the confusion. Spartiates and Spartan society wasn't geared to creating super soldiers, merely a warrior culture. So if not for hoplite vs hoplite, why did Sparta do it? Necessity. Early on Sparta conquered its neighbor, Messenia. The population was completely enslaved by the Spartans, turned into essentially a permanent class of field hands, serfs. However, as any culture who practices large scale slavery can attest, revolts are always a pressing concern. And it was that threat, constant worry about slave uprisings, plus normal Doric martial culture, plus the freedom of no longer having to individually sow or plow or harvest, that allowed the Spartans to focus on warfare and martial training. Thus the laws of the possibly mythical Lycurgus, who the Spartans believed was the one who instituted all the reforms that transformed their society into the martial state it became. The point that a few other successful Greek city states could be victorious in battle, later even against Spartan hoplites, while essentially doing it all as weekend warriors has some truth to it. But for many hundreds of years the Spartans were essentially unbeatable on land; so while the Athenians might be able to defeat the Persians without resorting to Spartan measures, when fighting the Spartans themselves on land they were largely losing. Even in those times when the Spartans did lose battles, it was rarely a significant loss and often there were some rather large extenuating circumstances involved. It wasn't until they were getting beat fair and square, mano e mano, that their power really started waning. But a lot of that had to do with social problems inside their own society. Land ownership issues coupled with declining number of full Spartiates. More successful slave revolts. Massive loss of life in the 5th Century BC earthquakes that they never really recovered from. Want to see how successful Spartans were and their lifestyle? After the peace with Athens following their defeat, when the Tyrants still ran Athens and democracy was banished, the Spartans opened up the agoge to select families of the elite of Athens. And a shit load of them took it up, sending their children to Sparta to get that training. It wasn't boot camp in the sense that it was training them to fight conventional wars, it was simply the most extreme form of child rearing available to the open classes. While any Greek could independently raise their child near identically to the Spartan Agoge, the latter was state run; family WAS NOT ALLOWED TO RAISE THEIR OWN SONS. Only the state was allowed. It was the same with infanticide. Something all Greek peoples did (basically all ancient did it), with the Spartans it too was a state prerogative; the parents had zero say, the Euphors, elected officials, made the call whether or not to toss the baby into a gorge for the wolves to eat. Spartans were the least free Greeks out there, a more miserable, son-of-a-bitch group of people in history are hard to find. The closest comparison to them are the North Koreans. While great warriors, they were horrible human beings. Only they weren't farmers per se, they were more like plantation owners. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:37:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The mighty United States Army. But so far our history is pretty damn short. Back to back undefeated world war champs and all! |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:37:54 PM EDT
[#20]
i'd say romans or Folgore paratroopers in El Alamein, but i'm biased since i did extensive researches about those two. Anyway, if i have to choose from those you proposed, i'd say spartans (even if i don't like their omosexuals usages)
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:39:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Blackadder’s choice
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:43:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i'd say romans or Folgore paratroopers in El Alamein, but i'm biased since i did extensive researches about those two. Anyway, if i have to choose from those you proposed, i'd say spartans (even if i don't like their omosexuals usages) |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:44:14 PM EDT
[#23]
probably the ones that people keep writing books and making movies about such as
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:45:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
come on now...we're still arguing about whether or not the spartans were the great ancestors of bob ross....let's not bring the war of northern aggression into it just yet... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Confederate soldier
too bad they weren't better bad ass warriors, they could have won. 
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:45:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mongols, no one else even comes close. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:46:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nineteen double Medal of Honor Winners - CMOH Double Recipients https://i.imgur.com/iStgf9q.png |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:47:00 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:48:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Aristotele didn't understand how procreation works, then
i'm joking, of course, i think his thoughts are really fascinating, considering the time perios he lived in
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:49:58 PM EDT
[#29]
Consider who nation states would pay for services; the Vikings in the Byzantine empire, the Scots in Russia & Sweden or the Gurkhas for Britain are worth consideration
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:50:41 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:51:22 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Confederate soldier
too bad they weren't better bad ass warriors, they could have won. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:55:11 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We can do both. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/fightinghellfish/Photoshoppery/2ndplacewinner.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confederate soldier
too bad they weren't better bad ass warriors, they could have won. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/fightinghellfish/Photoshoppery/2ndplacewinner.jpg 
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:56:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Leuctra was a mere 75 years afte the Peloponnesian wars - which the poster I was responding to was talking about. At their height Sparta was the B squad that Persia used to destabilize the real threat in the region. The B squad...Drop the hyperbole and qualify first why the Peloponnesian War was ever even fought. Who ran the Peloponnesian League? Sure as shit wasn't the B squad. Who provoked the war and invaded whom? Sparta did. And who won the war? Sure as shit wasn't the Delian League, it was Sparta. Persian influence didn't win the war, it just helped secure Ionia, home to many Athenian allied city states. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:56:58 PM EDT
[#34]
I used to binge drink once in awhile with a Vietnam vet Marine. By all accounts, a badass dude himself. He said that those Korean marines over in Vietnam were the toughest fuckers he ever saw.
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:57:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Took 3 pages you guys are slipping
You can’t kill this mother fucker. He just wouldn’t die. Or quit.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:58:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aristotele didn't understand how procreation works, then i'm joking, of course, i think his thoughts are really fascinating, considering the time perios he lived in |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 5:59:08 PM EDT
[#37]
American SOF might be the best warriors in the history of the world. Because of America being the richest and most powerful militarily that's every existed. We can throw so much resources at equipping and training our best.
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:05:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Nobody picked these guys
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:06:01 PM EDT
[#39]
even if you and me can find even distusting having sex with another man, at that time it was normal..also Romans did not see homosexuals behaviours as wee see them now, and you can't say they were not great warriors! Even if it doesn't sounds good at all, at least to me, we have to admit that homosexuality is an innate behaviour of several mammals species (Apes and a lot of different animals have homosexual behaviours). Simply, our culture does not see homosexuality as a normal behaviour..
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:08:11 PM EDT
[#40]
Nor these guys
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:09:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote History |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:10:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And Leuctra was still 700 years after Lycurgus' reforms. And the height of Sparta wasn't at Leuctra, it was the tale end of the Peloponnesian War, when they were the undisputed masters of Greece. The B squad...Drop the hyperbole and qualify first why the Peloponnesian War was ever even fought. Who ran the Peloponnesian League? Sure as shit wasn't the B squad. Who provoked the war and invaded whom? Sparta did. And who won the war? Sure as shit wasn't the Delian League, it was Sparta. Persian influence didn't win the war, it just helped secure Ionia, home to many Athenian allied city states. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Leuctra was a mere 75 years afte the Peloponnesian wars - which the poster I was responding to was talking about. At their height Sparta was the B squad that Persia used to destabilize the real threat in the region. The B squad...Drop the hyperbole and qualify first why the Peloponnesian War was ever even fought. Who ran the Peloponnesian League? Sure as shit wasn't the B squad. Who provoked the war and invaded whom? Sparta did. And who won the war? Sure as shit wasn't the Delian League, it was Sparta. Persian influence didn't win the war, it just helped secure Ionia, home to many Athenian allied city states. So...Persian resources were given to Sparta & "just helped secure Ionia" you say? Yeah, no kidding. The Pelonnesian war was a sesaw war until Persian resources gave Sparta the upper hand. One generation after the peak of their strength the Spartans were getting their crap pushed in by a smaller Theban army while the Spartan relief army tucked tail and ran for their lives. You want to know what changed in that one generation? The B squad lost their support. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:10:42 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:11:09 PM EDT
[#44]
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3927954/british-soldier-drowns-isis-puddle-sbs-troops-mosul-iraq/
These guys are bad ass. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:12:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
According to feminists http://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/151124125522-xena-warrior-princess-super-169.jpg IMO medieval knights had a huge advantage over most of these pre-gun powder warriors/soldiers. Their platemail armor is a pretty huge advantage. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:13:11 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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Confederate soldier
too bad they weren't better bad ass warriors, they could have won. http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b250/fightinghellfish/Photoshoppery/2ndplacewinner.jpg 
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:14:05 PM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:25:40 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm going with this answer minus the unnecessary apostrophe. Gurkhas are NOT to be trifled with. I don't know what it is about them, but they seem to pack a hell of a lot of badass into a little bitty dude. I wouldn't want to fight one, much less a whole force of them. I'm glad they are on our side. |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:26:25 PM EDT
[#49]
 The Wisdom of Chiun, Master of Sinanju (Remo Williams: The Adventure Begins) |
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Posted: 1/23/2018 6:35:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nobody picked these guys https://papundits.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/islam-muslim-warriors_ac.jpg |
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