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Its almost as though for his entire life the people who could own land were oppressing him.

That tends to have an effect on a person.

You can see the same thing in this country.

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Hahaha, what?

Who's oppressing who here? Who's being deprived of land here?

Please...by all means.

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I'll try to speak simply.

Why do you think blacks in the united states overwhelmingly, historically, vote for politicians who care little for property rights generally?

I'd submit its due in large part to the treatment of blacks as property. And the prohibition on blacks owning property in many places.

Its endemic. Why should I care about property? My ancesters were property.

Why should Mandela care about property? The people with the property were the same ones depriving him of his basic human rights.

I'm not calling the mindset correct, by any means. I can just see how that mindset is bred.

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I'll try to speak simply.

Why do you think blacks in the united states overwhelmingly, historically, vote for politicians who care little for property rights generally?

I'd submit its due in large part to the treatment of blacks as property. And the prohibition on blacks owning property in many places.

Its endemic. Why should I care about property? My ancesters were property.

Why should Mandela care about property? The people with the property were the same ones depriving him of his basic human rights.

I'm not calling the mindset correct, by any means. I can just see how that mindset is bred.

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Only white people are supposed to get pissed at evil governments stamping on their rights.  

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I for one am not saying they should not have fought, I'm saying the  way they went about it was very much worse than what they were fighting against. Remember, the ANC were responsible the the very gruesome murders of as many black men women and especially children as they were for the whites they killed.

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Mandela bad does not equal blacks deserve apartheid either, which is what the pointy hat brigade is selling.  

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But, you cannot say that the average South African is not better off today than they were before the regime change.  Clearly the economy and general health of the people of SA are much better, people are free-er, sounds like a great place to raise a family.

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But, you cannot say that the average South African is not better off today than they were before the regime change.  Clearly the economy and general health of the people of SA are much better, people are free-er, sounds like a great place to raise a family.

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I'm talking historically. Try to keep up. This mindset didn't pop up overnight.

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If UN troops invaded New York would you murder your neighbor and rape his wife because you wanted to be the resistance leader not him?  That a more apt comparison of what this fake "freedom fighter" did.

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Maybe you should kick the Amish off their land at gunpoint next and take it over.  

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Live free in a shit hole or as a slave in a first world nation?  

His political affiliation doesn't actually matter to me, nor what happened to country after it overthrow its oppressive regime.  Not for the purposes of figuring out if Mandela was a bad guy.  If the ends don't justify the means, then you can't judge the means by the ends either.  You can judge him on what he did, and it'd be a damn good idea to include the why, which doesn't include Communism, and find reasons to condemn him.  Which is what you've largely done, and that's perfectly fine.   But to say that things turned out badly afterward and that makes him a bad person isn't wise.  After all, the French Revolution turned out to be a nightmare.  Do you judge the Revolution itself based on what came after?

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Wow.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the Africans were pretty content in keeping things the way they were 'pre-colonization,' whether they were 'primatives,' or not?  Same with the Native Americans in America.  That is to say they weren't overtly asking for anybody's help.

I mean, they had been pretty much been living the same way and flourishing, for what...10,000+ years?

Chris

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I'll try to speak simply.



Why do you think blacks in the united states overwhelmingly, historically, vote for politicians who care little for property rights generally?



I'd submit its due in large part to the treatment of blacks as property. And the prohibition on blacks owning property in many places.



Its endemic. Why should I care about property? My ancesters were property.



Why should Mandela care about property? The people with the property were the same ones depriving him of his basic human rights.



I'm not calling the mindset correct, by any means. I can just see how that mindset is bred.

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Do you know who John Brown was?
 

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Especially this. Contrary to popular belief Apartheid was about all about freedom.

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Where people of a certain color were literally sub-human before the law, killed with impunity by police, and subject to show trials over trumped up charges.

We can condemn him all we want for being a Marxist (it was kind of the de facto standard of anti-government movements in that era, so how much of a true-believer Marxist he really was is up for debate), but if gun owners or whites were kept under the government boot as sub-humans by force of law, you - and most of the people on this board condemning him as a terrorist - would be shooting people, slitting throats, and planting bombs in government offices too.

And if I recall, we had an era in our country where that was exactly the case.  All said and done, South Africa handled the whole problem of fixing that much more gracefully than we did.

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I wouldn't be a part of SA at any time, under any circumstances.

If I was, and someone bombed my shit because I was part of the problem, I suppose that's what happens.

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Face it, there are a lot of people with IQs under 80, who think that having a half dozen kids, having a free apartment, having free food, having free money to buy 'some' of the same shit working people have, without having to work 5 minutes for it, is a pretty good life.

It's really not that hard to fathom.

Chris

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Isn't kind of ironic for a guy living in country that couldn't put any more of a fight than spear throwing Africans could against the modern militaries of the time? If the US or Russia decided to act like the imperialist powers did in Africa wouldn't you end up in a shanty town and some Russia or American would be playing with your X Box and drinking your beer?  

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I agree with you.  Lots of parroting going around with little substance.

Here's a Wiki on the Umkhonto we Sizwe, which is the military/militant wing of the ANC, which was co-founded by Nelson Mandela.

MK military wing of the ANC

Here's an excerpt of N.M.'s I AM PREPARED TO DIE speech in 1961 about using violence:

""At the beginning of June 1961, after a long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I, and some colleagues, came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be unrealistic and wrong for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force.

This conclusion was not easily arrived at. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle, and to form Umkhonto we Sizwe. We did so not because we desired such a course, but solely because the government had left us with no other choice. In the Manifesto of Umkhonto published on 16 December 1961, which is exhibit AD, we said:

'The time comes in the life of any nation when there remain only two choices – submit or fight. That time has now come to South Africa. We shall not submit and we have no choice but to hit back by all means in our power in defence of our people, our future, and our freedom.'

Firstly, we believed that as a result of Government policy, violence by the African people had become inevitable, and that unless responsible leadership was given to canalise and control the feelings of our people, there would be outbreaks of terrorism which would produce an intensity of bitterness and hostility between the various races of this country which is not produced even by war. Secondly, we felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or take over the Government. We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer with violence."

Sounds pretty reasonable to me?

Here are some of the 'attacks' he carried out:

"In June 1961, Mandela sent a letter to South African newspapers warning the government that a campaign of sabotage would be launched unless the government agreed to call for a national constitutional convention.[5] Beginning on 16 December 1961, the campaign by Umkhonto we Sizwe with Mandela as its leader, launched bomb attacks on government targets and planned for possible guerrilla warfare.[6] The first target of the campaign was an electricity sub-station. Umkhonto we Sizwe undertook other acts of sabotage in the next eighteen months. The government alleged more acts of sabotage had been carried out and at the Rivonia trial the accused would be charged with 193 acts of sabotage in total.[7] The sabotage included attacks on government posts, machines, power facilities and crop burning.[5]"

How many US soldiers have been charged with murder during both the Irak and Afghanistan wars?

Shit happens in wars and innocents die, but that doesn't negate the moral validity of the campaign.

Chris

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History? Wolf. I guess your lieing to us when you don't mention mugabe, right?

How many white people have been killed since 1994 by blacks in SA?

What was the number of farms in SA in 1994 and what is it now?

Where in history did the labor of 200,000 black people feed 150,000,000 white people?

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Come on, you shit a brick every time a meter maid writes a ticket in America, but black guys getting clubbed, bitten and shot "well Mandela was a dick, so whatever"  

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Especially this. Contrary to popular belief Apartheid was about all about freedom.

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Of course not. Would you accept money and arms from commies just like black civil rights leaders? Or do you just shuffle and mutter yes massa.  

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Wooosh.  Right over your head.