User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 8:51:36 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was under the impression that steel, being harder than brass, is much more likely to crack, even after a single firing. I don't think I could bring myself to trust steel reloads. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Boxer primed steel cases would be easily reloadable. Though they probably wouldn't last nearly as long as brass... Or maybe they would, considering primer pocket life as a limiting factor. I was under the impression that steel, being harder than brass, is much more likely to crack, even after a single firing. I don't think I could bring myself to trust steel reloads. sshhhh, GD ain't got time for numbers and fizaks. Building bird houses in shop class is considered the top choice for higher free electives in high school. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 8:52:44 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aluminum cases are the way to go. They are: 1: Lighter than both steel and brass. 2: More brass-like in case behavior under pressure than steel, and thus a better replacement for brass than steel. 3: Cheaper finished product than brass or steel. 4: Not prone to rust like steel. 5: Easier to work than steel. Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 8:55:26 AM EST
[#3]
Heat.
Brass helps shed heat. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 8:56:44 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Aluminum cases are the way to go. They are: 1: Lighter than both steel and brass. 2: More brass-like in case behavior under pressure than steel, and thus a better replacement for brass than steel. 3: Cheaper finished product than brass or steel. 4: Not prone to rust like steel. 5: Easier to work than steel. Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.
Polymer cases are inherently ill suited to bottlenecked cartridges. Also, the weight difference versus aluminum is insignificant. Why develop polymer which still doesn't work and offers no weight advantage when Frankford Arsenal had working aluminum 5.56 cases in the 1960s? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:01:13 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Older 05 is brass, newer ones are spun steel Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We still use steel in some of the larger calibers. When I was in from 93-97 25mm was steel cased. 40mm is steel, 105 is brass Older 05 is brass, newer ones are spun steel yep, but oddly enough the new IR Ilum is brass. Also unrelated...we fired a bunch of this the other day. Loaded in the early 70s. The brass canisters(in the background) were all fucked up looking. Kind of funny since I thought that 548 was obsolete/replaced by 913 & 927 and we are shooting stuff that still has the X on them. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:03:50 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
sshhhh, GD ain't got time for numbers and fizaks. Building bird houses in shop class is considered the top choice for higher free electives in high school.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Boxer primed steel cases would be easily reloadable. Though they probably wouldn't last nearly as long as brass... Or maybe they would, considering primer pocket life as a limiting factor. I was under the impression that steel, being harder than brass, is much more likely to crack, even after a single firing. I don't think I could bring myself to trust steel reloads. sshhhh, GD ain't got time for numbers and fizaks. Building bird houses in shop class is considered the top choice for higher free electives in high school.
Snark less, read more: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/362084_Reloading_Wolf_Tula_steel_cases__________________A_work_in_progress.html There are other examples of folks reloading steel cases. It is possible, just less than ideal. 90% of the bitch-factor relates to Berdan priming. Boxer primed steel would remove that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:07:54 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They're still there. "Brass pickers" as the range ops/support contractors called 'em: "Don't fuck with the brass pickers, they kill you for a shell casing or a sabot petal." I never saw the HMMWVs but they do hide in the impact area waiting for lulls in the firing so they can run out and grab whatever they can. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
On Fort Hood in the 80's we were on a life fire range shootin 20MM Vulcans. After a couple tracks had maneuvered downrange firing from several points, they turned around and came back to the starting point. A Humvee came up out of the impact area, in full view of all of us, and a couple guys jumped out and shoveled the brass into the back. After collecting several thousand rounds of spent 20MM they went back into the impact area. No one would follow them into there. We were shut down and could not fire on them, we asked to though. Later we were told that there were several HUMVEE S that were missing and presumed stolen. The belief was that the scavenger families that lived on the edges of post had the Hummvee s stashed in the Permanant no entry impact areas and that is who we watched take all that brass. Without the US Army, those folks would have starved. They're still there. "Brass pickers" as the range ops/support contractors called 'em: "Don't fuck with the brass pickers, they kill you for a shell casing or a sabot petal." I never saw the HMMWVs but they do hide in the impact area waiting for lulls in the firing so they can run out and grab whatever they can. WTF is this? 
They just let them go and accept it? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:10:47 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You do know we recycle our brass don't you? We pick our brass up in a war zone? As in after a firefight? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:11:14 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Aluminum cases are the way to go. They are: 1: Lighter than both steel and brass. 2: More brass-like in case behavior under pressure than steel, and thus a better replacement for brass than steel. 3: Cheaper finished product than brass or steel. 4: Not prone to rust like steel. 5: Easier to work than steel. Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.
Assuming a combat load of 300 rounds (heavy for most, light for some, just roll with me here), aluminum cases would save almost 2lbs of weight. Not huge, but not tiny. You could carry two more mags for the same weight. And yes, for the engineers, this factors in thicker case walls for aluminum cases. Not just density conversion. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:18:41 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WTF is this?
They just let them go and accept it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
On Fort Hood in the 80's we were on a life fire range shootin 20MM Vulcans. After a couple tracks had maneuvered downrange firing from several points, they turned around and came back to the starting point. A Humvee came up out of the impact area, in full view of all of us, and a couple guys jumped out and shoveled the brass into the back. After collecting several thousand rounds of spent 20MM they went back into the impact area. No one would follow them into there. We were shut down and could not fire on them, we asked to though. Later we were told that there were several HUMVEE S that were missing and presumed stolen. The belief was that the scavenger families that lived on the edges of post had the Hummvee s stashed in the Permanant no entry impact areas and that is who we watched take all that brass. Without the US Army, those folks would have starved. They're still there. "Brass pickers" as the range ops/support contractors called 'em: "Don't fuck with the brass pickers, they kill you for a shell casing or a sabot petal." I never saw the HMMWVs but they do hide in the impact area waiting for lulls in the firing so they can run out and grab whatever they can. WTF is this?
They just let them go and accept it? Why do you hate neckbeards?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:26:21 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Assuming a combat load of 300 rounds (heavy for most, light for some, just roll with me here), aluminum cases would save almost 2lbs of weight. Not huge, but not tiny. You could carry two more mags for the same weight. And yes, for the engineers, this factors in thicker case walls for aluminum cases. Not just density conversion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Aluminum cases are the way to go. They are: 1: Lighter than both steel and brass. 2: More brass-like in case behavior under pressure than steel, and thus a better replacement for brass than steel. 3: Cheaper finished product than brass or steel. 4: Not prone to rust like steel. 5: Easier to work than steel. Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.
Assuming a combat load of 300 rounds (heavy for most, light for some, just roll with me here), aluminum cases would save almost 2lbs of weight. Not huge, but not tiny. You could carry two more mags for the same weight. And yes, for the engineers, this factors in thicker case walls for aluminum cases. Not just density conversion. Alumunium has odd long term storage behavior. I have 15 yr old blazer 9mm. There is a white powder creeping up the brass bullets, from the Al casings. They fire fine, but I'm guessing it's Aluminum oxide. Wonder what that's doing to barrel erosion... I wonder if brass has better long term storage? Then again, maybe it's just rubbings of the white plastic tray they are in - not sure
I imagine with steel the concern is reliability in hot chambers & extraction. Steel tends to get "sticky", and expands when hot. Get a failure to extract with a steel case and you better find a cleaning rod. With brass, it has a little spring back after the firing pressure expansion, so a lot easier to extract. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:27:07 AM EST
[#12]
.mil really needs caseless ammo
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:29:39 AM EST
[#13]
The story a year or 2 ago is that Obama no longer allowed US companies to reuse the brass for civilian market. All gets sold to China.
Anyone else recall that? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:34:25 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On Fort Hood in the 80's we were on a life fire range shootin 20MM Vulcans. After a couple tracks had maneuvered downrange firing from several points, they turned around and came back to the starting point. A Humvee came up out of the impact area, in full view of all of us, and a couple guys jumped out and shoveled the brass into the back. After collecting several thousand rounds of spent 20MM they went back into the impact area. No one would follow them into there. We were shut down and could not fire on them, we asked to though. Later we were told that there were several HUMVEE S that were missing and presumed stolen. The belief was that the scavenger families that lived on the edges of post had the Hummvee s stashed in the Permanant no entry impact areas and that is who we watched take all that brass. Without the US Army, those folks would have starved. HO-LEE SHIT!!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:36:45 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Aluminum cases are the way to go. They are: 1: Lighter than both steel and brass. 2: More brass-like in case behavior under pressure than steel, and thus a better replacement for brass than steel. 3: Cheaper finished product than brass or steel. 4: Not prone to rust like steel. 5: Easier to work than steel. Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:47:22 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We pick our brass up in a war zone? As in after a firefight? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You do know we recycle our brass don't you? We pick our brass up in a war zone? As in after a firefight?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:55:18 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.mil really needs caseless ammo
http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad189/Thedevil08/LG%20Defense%20Systems/caseless_round2.jpg Because cookoffs are awesome. Especially before the firearm even makes it into battery.
The only G11 rounds (squares?) that worked even half-assed were the ones with cast HITP. Those compressed-powder propellant charges cooked off with a sneeze or exposure to direct sunlight.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 9:58:41 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Steel can be recycled as well, and you can pick it up with a magnet, no need to bend over  ETA I see I was beaten why several seconds  |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:01:05 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Boxer primed steel cases would be easily reloadable. Though they probably wouldn't last nearly as long as brass... Or maybe they would, considering primer pocket life as a limiting factor. I thought steel cases chewed up reloading dies. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:01:28 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What would I do with my Privates who need extra duty? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Steel can be recycled as well, and you can pick it up with a magnet, no need to bend over
ETA I see I was beaten why several seconds Take away their magnets?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:09:41 AM EST
[#21]
".mil really needs caseless ammo"
- as noted by another poster cookoffs can be a problem. The other limitation is accuracy (or lack thereof). Solution: Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, please. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:12:27 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Steel rusts Brass just tarnishes Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You do know we recycle our brass don't you? You can recycle or re-use steel as well.
Steel rusts Brass just tarnishes Both are forms of oxidation. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:18:47 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: sshhhh, GD ain't got time for numbers and fizaks. Building bird houses in shop class is considered the top choice for higher free electives in high school. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Boxer primed steel cases would be easily reloadable. Though they probably wouldn't last nearly as long as brass... Or maybe they would, considering primer pocket life as a limiting factor. I was under the impression that steel, being harder than brass, is much more likely to crack, even after a single firing. I don't think I could bring myself to trust steel reloads. sshhhh, GD ain't got time for numbers and fizaks. Building bird houses in shop class is considered the top choice for higher free electives in high school. Massive fail. The mild steel used in cartridge casings is just as "soft" as brass, however it doesn't expand quite as much. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:20:10 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
".mil really needs caseless ammo" - as noted by another poster cookoffs can be a problem. The other limitation is accuracy (or lack thereof). Solution: Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, please. If I remember correctly, it also has to be vacuum packed and it gets "stale" if it's opened and not used, especially in humid conditions. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:20:25 AM EST
[#25]
The French use steel cased 556 for their FAMAS rifles.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:23:18 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Floor buffers MUST stay!!!!! I've gotten and seen many a bruise from riding floor buffers Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It would make it too easy on privates when it comes to policing up a range after shooting all day, they could just use a magnet on wheels and not have to scrounge around on their hands and knees Sure, next thing you know, you're going to want to get rid of the floor buffers. Floor buffers MUST stay!!!!! I've gotten and seen many a bruise from riding floor buffers before lights out the announcement "put you boots on your locker".. every night fire guards buffing blasted some joe's boots who left their stuff on the ground... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:25:09 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because cookoffs are awesome. Especially before the firearm even makes it into battery. The only G11 rounds (squares?) that worked even half-assed were the ones with cast HITP. Those compressed-powder propellant charges cooked off with a sneeze or exposure to direct sunlight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: .mil really needs caseless ammo http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad189/Thedevil08/LG%20Defense%20Systems/caseless_round2.jpg Because cookoffs are awesome. Especially before the firearm even makes it into battery. The only G11 rounds (squares?) that worked even half-assed were the ones with cast HITP. Those compressed-powder propellant charges cooked off with a sneeze or exposure to direct sunlight. Problem solved, use an open-bolt system. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:28:11 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe it gets melted down...think recycled aluminum cans. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You do know we recycle our brass don't you? Never seen re-man or reloaded ammo in inventory. Do tell us more..... I believe it gets melted down...think recycled aluminum cans. It is sold of as scrap surplus or sometimes sold for reloading...but in 1,000+ lb lots. GovtLiquidation carries a bunch of it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:39:15 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is sold of as scrap surplus or sometimes sold for reloading...but in 1,000+ lb lots. GovtLiquidation carries a bunch of it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You do know we recycle our brass don't you? Never seen re-man or reloaded ammo in inventory. Do tell us more..... I believe it gets melted down...think recycled aluminum cans. It is sold of as scrap surplus or sometimes sold for reloading...but in 1,000+ lb lots. GovtLiquidation carries a bunch of it. Arfcom needs a warehouse to store all that brass. Maybe a forklift or two for Aimless.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:43:15 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WTF is this?
They just let them go and accept it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
On Fort Hood in the 80's we were on a life fire range shootin 20MM Vulcans. After a couple tracks had maneuvered downrange firing from several points, they turned around and came back to the starting point. A Humvee came up out of the impact area, in full view of all of us, and a couple guys jumped out and shoveled the brass into the back. After collecting several thousand rounds of spent 20MM they went back into the impact area. No one would follow them into there. We were shut down and could not fire on them, we asked to though. Later we were told that there were several HUMVEE S that were missing and presumed stolen. The belief was that the scavenger families that lived on the edges of post had the Hummvee s stashed in the Permanant no entry impact areas and that is who we watched take all that brass. Without the US Army, those folks would have starved. They're still there. "Brass pickers" as the range ops/support contractors called 'em: "Don't fuck with the brass pickers, they kill you for a shell casing or a sabot petal." I never saw the HMMWVs but they do hide in the impact area waiting for lulls in the firing so they can run out and grab whatever they can. WTF is this?
They just let them go and accept it? Can't really stop them; you'd spend all your time chasing them around...like bop the weasel. I'm surprised more of them don't get killed/injured in their endeavors. Note that Soldier65 was talking about them stealing from the firing points...I'm talking about them going for expended ordnance down range...like sabot petals, cases dropped from aircraft, rocket bodies, you name it. They would get to the stuff before we could drive from Range Control out to inspect/score/repair targets. In fact, I think they would use the Range Control truck as their cue that it was "safe" to start scavenging. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:48:17 AM EST
[#31]
Why not follow them?
I'm amazed to hear this happens....bizarre. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 10:59:31 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Floor buffers MUST stay!!!!! I've gotten and seen many a bruise from riding floor buffers Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It would make it too easy on privates when it comes to policing up a range after shooting all day, they could just use a magnet on wheels and not have to scrounge around on their hands and knees Sure, next thing you know, you're going to want to get rid of the floor buffers. Floor buffers MUST stay!!!!! I've gotten and seen many a bruise from riding floor buffers I thought that riding a floor buffer was a grunt right of passage, like fucking a fat chick at closing time.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 11:19:54 AM EST
[#33]
WW2 era steel cases 45 had steel in the bullet jacket too. Sometimes they rust together.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 11:22:56 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Commies used brass to, but I've had better luck with their steel cased. <a href="http://s57.photobucket.com/user/tom2147/media/polishammo.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g235/tom2147/polishammo.jpg</a> Polish or Romanian? Looks like pure shit. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 11:30:09 AM EST
[#35]
Have you ever seen rusty steel cased ammo. It can get that way pretty quick in a humid environment.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 11:32:03 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you ever seen rusty steel cased ammo. It can get that way pretty quick in a humid environment. I've got a bucket full of spent AK casings that sort of say otherwise. They aren't rusty at all on the outside, where they are either coated in com bloc lacquer, or the newer wolf "polymer" coating.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 11:40:20 AM EST
[#37]
Brass and copper we have.
Steel? Well, there's only four foundries operating in the US. We couldn't build a WW II era battleship today if we wanted to. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 11:44:47 AM EST
[#38]
Because we are not a bunch of Godless Commies, that's why!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 11:51:45 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WW2 era steel cases 45 had steel in the bullet jacket too. Sometimes they rust together. We use steel in 9mm bullet jackets, but there's an outer layer of Tombac which protects the barrel and keeps the bullet from rusting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 12:05:11 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Steel? Well, there's only four foundries operating in the US. You're high. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 12:10:30 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sell it, not reload it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You do know we recycle our brass don't you? As in reload? No I honestly didn't. Sell it, not reload it. I thought maybe you cast it into balls. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 12:13:50 PM EST
[#42]
Brass is prefferd...
Metal case is cheaper..
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 12:20:40 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've always wondered why it wasn't as popular for ammo. I have shot CCI Blazer aluminum cased ammo before with zero problems out of a few pistols. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Aluminum cases are the way to go. They are: 1: Lighter than both steel and brass. 2: More brass-like in case behavior under pressure than steel, and thus a better replacement for brass than steel. 3: Cheaper finished product than brass or steel. 4: Not prone to rust like steel. 5: Easier to work than steel. Aluminum corrodes like a mofo, dude. And 9mm is not 5.56. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 12:27:13 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Alumunium has odd long term storage behavior. I have 15 yr old blazer 9mm. There is a white powder creeping up the brass bullets, from the Al casings. They fire fine, but I'm guessing it's Aluminum oxide. Wonder what that's doing to barrel erosion... I wonder if brass has better long term storage? Then again, maybe it's just rubbings of the white plastic tray they are in - not sure
I imagine with steel the concern is reliability in hot chambers & extraction. Steel tends to get "sticky", and expands when hot. Get a failure to extract with a steel case and you better find a cleaning rod. With brass, it has a little spring back after the firing pressure expansion, so a lot easier to extract. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Aluminum cases are the way to go. They are: 1: Lighter than both steel and brass. 2: More brass-like in case behavior under pressure than steel, and thus a better replacement for brass than steel. 3: Cheaper finished product than brass or steel. 4: Not prone to rust like steel. 5: Easier to work than steel. Lighter from a logistical standpoint, but not from a tactical standpoint. Who in the world is even gonna notice a difference in ounces on their gear? Logistical though, I can see the military saving money not just from the cost of materials, but from the costs of having to transport that stuff. Then again, Polymer cased ammo might be the better solution if the R&D companies can get the mixture of the plastic right.
Assuming a combat load of 300 rounds (heavy for most, light for some, just roll with me here), aluminum cases would save almost 2lbs of weight. Not huge, but not tiny. You could carry two more mags for the same weight. And yes, for the engineers, this factors in thicker case walls for aluminum cases. Not just density conversion. Alumunium has odd long term storage behavior. I have 15 yr old blazer 9mm. There is a white powder creeping up the brass bullets, from the Al casings. They fire fine, but I'm guessing it's Aluminum oxide. Wonder what that's doing to barrel erosion... I wonder if brass has better long term storage? Then again, maybe it's just rubbings of the white plastic tray they are in - not sure
I imagine with steel the concern is reliability in hot chambers & extraction. Steel tends to get "sticky", and expands when hot. Get a failure to extract with a steel case and you better find a cleaning rod. With brass, it has a little spring back after the firing pressure expansion, so a lot easier to extract. It's not the tray. Aluminum casings do this. (probably galvanic) Unless they anodized them or something (which probably wouldn't work very well since the loading process would probably compromise the anodize) it is a bad idea IMHO. I have fired brass cased ammo loaded in the 1890s that looked great, and have decade old aluminum cased pistol cartridges that are in very bad shape. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 1:00:01 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never seen re-man or reloaded ammo in inventory. Do tell us more..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You do know we recycle our brass don't you? Never seen re-man or reloaded ammo in inventory. Do tell us more..... Used to be that surplus military brass was the backbone of the civilian reloaded ammo business. I've shot thousands of round of Black Hills 5.56 reloads, most of which was in Lake City brass. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 1:07:43 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On Fort Hood in the 80's we were on a life fire range shootin 20MM Vulcans. After a couple tracks had maneuvered downrange firing from several points, they turned around and came back to the starting point. A Humvee came up out of the impact area, in full view of all of us, and a couple guys jumped out and shoveled the brass into the back. After collecting several thousand rounds of spent 20MM they went back into the impact area. No one would follow them into there. We were shut down and could not fire on them, we asked to though. Later we were told that there were several HUMVEE S that were missing and presumed stolen. The belief was that the scavenger families that lived on the edges of post had the Hummvee s stashed in the Permanant no entry impact areas and that is who we watched take all that brass. Without the US Army, those folks would have starved. 
Holy shit. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 1:11:34 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't really stop them; you'd spend all your time chasing them around...like bop the weasel. I'm surprised more of them don't get killed/injured in their endeavors. Note that Soldier65 was talking about them stealing from the firing points...I'm talking about them going for expended ordnance down range...like sabot petals, cases dropped from aircraft, rocket bodies, you name it. They would get to the stuff before we could drive from Range Control out to inspect/score/repair targets. In fact, I think they would use the Range Control truck as their cue that it was "safe" to start scavenging. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
On Fort Hood in the 80's we were on a life fire range shootin 20MM Vulcans. After a couple tracks had maneuvered downrange firing from several points, they turned around and came back to the starting point. A Humvee came up out of the impact area, in full view of all of us, and a couple guys jumped out and shoveled the brass into the back. After collecting several thousand rounds of spent 20MM they went back into the impact area. No one would follow them into there. We were shut down and could not fire on them, we asked to though. Later we were told that there were several HUMVEE S that were missing and presumed stolen. The belief was that the scavenger families that lived on the edges of post had the Hummvee s stashed in the Permanant no entry impact areas and that is who we watched take all that brass. Without the US Army, those folks would have starved. They're still there. "Brass pickers" as the range ops/support contractors called 'em: "Don't fuck with the brass pickers, they kill you for a shell casing or a sabot petal." I never saw the HMMWVs but they do hide in the impact area waiting for lulls in the firing so they can run out and grab whatever they can. WTF is this?
They just let them go and accept it? Can't really stop them; you'd spend all your time chasing them around...like bop the weasel. I'm surprised more of them don't get killed/injured in their endeavors. Note that Soldier65 was talking about them stealing from the firing points...I'm talking about them going for expended ordnance down range...like sabot petals, cases dropped from aircraft, rocket bodies, you name it. They would get to the stuff before we could drive from Range Control out to inspect/score/repair targets. In fact, I think they would use the Range Control truck as their cue that it was "safe" to start scavenging. Sounds like stories I heard about the Clark AB air to ground gunnery range in the Philippines. Older pilots talked about the Filipinos running out onto the range between planes to grab the 20mm brass that the F-4C and F-4D 20mm gun pods and that the B-57Gs 20mm cannons would drop. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 1:15:07 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WTF is this? They just let them go and accept it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: On Fort Hood in the 80's we were on a life fire range shootin 20MM Vulcans. After a couple tracks had maneuvered downrange firing from several points, they turned around and came back to the starting point. A Humvee came up out of the impact area, in full view of all of us, and a couple guys jumped out and shoveled the brass into the back. After collecting several thousand rounds of spent 20MM they went back into the impact area. No one would follow them into there. We were shut down and could not fire on them, we asked to though. Later we were told that there were several HUMVEE S that were missing and presumed stolen. The belief was that the scavenger families that lived on the edges of post had the Hummvee s stashed in the Permanant no entry impact areas and that is who we watched take all that brass. Without the US Army, those folks would have starved. They're still there. "Brass pickers" as the range ops/support contractors called 'em: "Don't fuck with the brass pickers, they kill you for a shell casing or a sabot petal." I never saw the HMMWVs but they do hide in the impact area waiting for lulls in the firing so they can run out and grab whatever they can. WTF is this? They just let them go and accept it? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 1:19:48 PM EST
[#49]
It is one of the benefits of being a superpower.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/28/2014 1:23:02 PM EST
[#50]
I don't know but caseless ammo is right around the corner....Oh wait.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
