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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:10:37 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a hard button actually, If I were to be training on a gun that won't be using it would make it harder for me to shoot to defend with. So yes, you are suggesting this exact thing. I have already stated to train and compete with the best that I can afford. Training on harder stuff that will not be used to do the other things does make it harder and not smarter. I master muscle memory with the 40/60. A worse trigger becomes not fun to shoot, so my skills would perish because I'd no longer want to be shooting such a useless piece of dead weight. Rather counterintuitive to suggest what you're saying because I would no longer want to participate. Do you want us to be proficient with what we are going to carry and compete with and to be fun that motivates us to get out there? Or do you want us to feel like it's a job that no one wants to do, a pained chore to that we won't care to remember, and ends up being not done and prolonged to the point where perishable skills suffer because of it? Choose wisely because those are the only two outcomes which is the reality here. Imagine your skills being so bad that a stock gun is a useless piece of dead weight. But I guess when doing anything that takes effort is too hard for you, then this is where you end up Mom...More hotpockets  More hot pockets! |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:14:15 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it's not. Doing hard things makes easy things easier faster. Doing easy things takes a very long time to make easy things easier. Yes, it is. Doing it harder makes it it harder to do period. And not smart because I am training to muscle memory one thing, but am going to use better more efficient to defend and compete without training to get it as muscle memory? That's a real asinine thing to suggest by wanting us to be sadistic to ourselves. Please don't suggest this to me ever again because I cannot take anyone seriously when they are being unreal. Doing easy things makes it easier for there to be any continuity, like a trigger to become one with. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:17:37 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, it is. Doing it harder makes it it harder to do period. And not smart because I am training to muscle memory one thing, but am going to use better more efficient to defend and compete without training to get it as muscle memory? That's a real asinine thing to suggest by wanting us to be sadistic to ourselves. Please don't suggest this to me ever again because I cannot take anyone seriously when they are being unreal. Doing easy things makes it easier for there to be any continuity, like a trigger to become one with. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, it's not. Doing hard things makes easy things easier faster. Doing easy things takes a very long time to make easy things easier. Yes, it is. Doing it harder makes it it harder to do period. And not smart because I am training to muscle memory one thing, but am going to use better more efficient to defend and compete without training to get it as muscle memory? That's a real asinine thing to suggest by wanting us to be sadistic to ourselves. Please don't suggest this to me ever again because I cannot take anyone seriously when they are being unreal. Doing easy things makes it easier for there to be any continuity, like a trigger to become one with. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:22:41 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Imagine your skills being so bad that a stock gun is a useless piece of dead weight. But I guess when doing anything that takes effort is too hard for you, then this is where you end up Mom...More hotpockets  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ust_Er_oX5AImagine, your false narrative being so false that you create BS out of thin air to argue over the very mountain you had created, and when it's being called out as it's being seen as, to then mock and attack another person. Who's paying for my guns and kit? That's the one who gets the final say in this matter, not YOU, a nobody to me. And just hearing this being said over and over is hard for you to take as well. It's why we're even at this current spat where you end up being continually reminded that you are no one's authority figure. Go back to your mother's basement, I agree. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:22:52 PM EST
[#5]
Is this the only action pic from a non LARP'ing environment?
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:23:27 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "1911" is a big category but let me tell you my thoughts. I used to carry and shoot full size 1911s quite a bit. Basically there are so many issues with 1911s that a slightly better trigger isn't really worth it. Probably the biggest Glock fans are the hardcore 1911 shooters. The US Army's Delta Force used to just run hand-built 1911s but went over to Glocks. You don't have to re-stake a plunger tube, tune a grip safety, tune an extractor, worry about weak mag springs, etc. For practical carry 1911s are extremely heavy and you can find that the thumb safety has been inadvertently swiped off if you're using a leather IWB holster. The Staccato actually fixes several issues with the 1911 like going to an integral plunger tube, which is nice. But has the superior doublestack 9mm 1911 already been invented and is it called the CZ-75, particularly the latest variants like the Shadow 2? Just a question. I thought my 1911 was awesome and since I had been practicing a ton with it, surely it would perform far better than my Gen 2 G22. The range results showed that I was shooting both about the same, and the old Gen 2 G22 in .40 isn't supposed to be that easy to shoot. Here is a good article: http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3563#more-3563 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I can consistently shoot my STI better than my 226 and a lot better than I can shoot a glock 26 especially if it is at 50+ yards and/or a smaller target. Why is it that pretty much nobody at the top level shoots a stock glock? Something similar to my Edge is so much easier to shoot than a Glock 17. Basically there are so many issues with 1911s that a slightly better trigger isn't really worth it. Probably the biggest Glock fans are the hardcore 1911 shooters. The US Army's Delta Force used to just run hand-built 1911s but went over to Glocks. You don't have to re-stake a plunger tube, tune a grip safety, tune an extractor, worry about weak mag springs, etc. For practical carry 1911s are extremely heavy and you can find that the thumb safety has been inadvertently swiped off if you're using a leather IWB holster. The Staccato actually fixes several issues with the 1911 like going to an integral plunger tube, which is nice. But has the superior doublestack 9mm 1911 already been invented and is it called the CZ-75, particularly the latest variants like the Shadow 2? Just a question. I thought my 1911 was awesome and since I had been practicing a ton with it, surely it would perform far better than my Gen 2 G22. The range results showed that I was shooting both about the same, and the old Gen 2 G22 in .40 isn't supposed to be that easy to shoot. Here is a good article: http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3563#more-3563 Yeah but when a 1911 style gun runs it's amazing. Your post seems to be focused on a fighting gun and I have no problem admitting that a glock type gun or CZ75 is better for that. A tuned CZ type gun is fantastic and is closer to a 2011 than a glock in my opinion. That being said there's a reason you see so many 2011 guns at the top levels of competition shooting. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:24:12 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this the only action pic from a non LARP'ing environment? https://64.media.tumblr.com/1c344aa18f4ff97203114749b06ae496/264adc36feb0ad35-3c/s640x960/3db16e3954d1bc10445e3ee16109bf7cbcc27971.jpg Idk looks like a LARP |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:26:19 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I can no longer take you seriously. I mean that actually happened a few pages back, but still. That whole not taking serious thing between us pages ago is mutual then. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:29:16 PM EST
[#9]
I was like "WTF is a Staccato?" Then I looked them up and realized it's STI. LOL.
I drive by there all the time; my sister-in-law lives a mile or two from them. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:36:27 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That whole not taking serious thing between us pages ago is mutual then. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And I can no longer take you seriously. I mean that actually happened a few pages back, but still. That whole not taking serious thing between us pages ago is mutual then. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:38:49 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Idk looks like a LARP Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is this the only action pic from a non LARP'ing environment? https://64.media.tumblr.com/1c344aa18f4ff97203114749b06ae496/264adc36feb0ad35-3c/s640x960/3db16e3954d1bc10445e3ee16109bf7cbcc27971.jpg Idk looks like a LARP Those poor bastards were in Portland fighting zombies with shit ROE. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:49:49 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is okay just buy some MBX mags you can get over the hump easy Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know nothing about shooting and people need $2,500 worth of gear instead of learning on stock guns Damn, my new P226 X-Five was only $2,400 and will be stock from the time I pick it up to when I get home  I guess I’ll have to throw it out and hide my shameIt is okay just buy some MBX mags you can get over the hump easy MBX makes P226 mags? |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:52:12 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MBX makes P226 mags? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know nothing about shooting and people need $2,500 worth of gear instead of learning on stock guns Damn, my new P226 X-Five was only $2,400 and will be stock from the time I pick it up to when I get home I guess I’ll have to throw it out and hide my shameIt is okay just buy some MBX mags you can get over the hump easy MBX makes P226 mags? Pretty sure. They even make Glock mags. Brb |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:52:37 PM EST
[#14]
You guys need to stop engaging with that clown from McCainville.
"Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic." This was the original retarded argument. A $500 Glock with $1000 or $1500 worth of stuff to compare to a Staccato- if you lack the mental capacity to understand that a MOS cut Glock costs incrementally the same as the optic cut Staccato, and the light and holsters and all that shit cost the same, and even ignoring that factory magazines are like 1/4 the cost on the Glock, the sunburned brain from the Grand Canyon state thinks most people will spend $1000 or something on triggers and God knows what else to try and accomplish what a Staccato does... |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 8:58:52 PM EST
[#15]
1st and second place at today's match were both shooting Staccatos with SRO.
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Posted: 6/25/2023 9:00:38 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MBX makes P226 mags? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I know nothing about shooting and people need $2,500 worth of gear instead of learning on stock guns Damn, my new P226 X-Five was only $2,400 and will be stock from the time I pick it up to when I get home I guess I’ll have to throw it out and hide my shameIt is okay just buy some MBX mags you can get over the hump easy MBX makes P226 mags? You're right I'm wrong they don't |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 9:04:58 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You deny that doing hard things makes easier things easier faster. That's a fundamental principle of the entire world. It's real hard to take that seriously. No, I deny false narratives. Which is not a fundamental thing for the entire world unless tyrants are pushing for it. It really is hard to not take anyone seriously when pushing for making life harder when the technology is right there to do it smartly with. Who's side are you on, the fudds? Because wanting me to make it harder to defend myself with by training on a platform that is both harder and not fun, not worth my time and money because it's pants on head stupid, is not trying to succeed with my end goals of surviving a home invasion or an attack with feral beings and using the best equipment possible that I can afford to do so with. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 9:07:17 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, I deny false narratives. Which is not a fundamental thing for the entire world unless tyrants are pushing for it. It really is hard to not take anyone seriously when pushing for making life harder when the technology is right there to do it smartly with. Who's side are you on, the fudds? Because wanting me to make it harder to defend myself with by training on a platform that is both harder and not fun, not worth my time and money because it's pants on head stupid, is not trying to succeed with my end goals of surviving a home invasion or an attack with feral beings and using the best equipment possible that I can afford to do so with. Are you drinking 
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Posted: 6/25/2023 9:19:16 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You guys need to stop engaging with that clown from McCainville. "Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic." This was the original retarded argument. A $500 Glock with $1000 or $1500 worth of stuff to compare to a Staccato- if you lack the mental capacity to understand that a MOS cut Glock costs incrementally the same as the optic cut Staccato, and the light and holsters and all that shit cost the same, and even ignoring that factory magazines are like 1/4 the cost on the Glock, the sunburned brain from the Grand Canyon state thinks most people will spend $1000 or something on triggers and God knows what else to try and accomplish what a Staccato does... I never once voted for that clown, that was your snowbird clowns from your clown state who did this  The argument was not retarded, but the ones who came in afterwards to continuously troll and be disingenuous were bringing the retardation. Meaning you just admitted the lack of mental capacity to understand the differences between the two that you lumped together and not me, and then added the BS attacks from your freezer burned brain along with more things that I had never said, due to lack of the lights being on up in that dome of yours and still nobody is home. How about you give actual advice that doesn't engage me at all warranting a response? I know that this is going to be hard on you since you project what you hate about yourself into me and why you are quick to insult when unprovoked, but at least try to give it some effort. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 9:19:53 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you drinking Is this what you are doing? It would explain a lot then. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 9:19:56 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You guys need to stop engaging with that clown from McCainville. "Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic." This was the original retarded argument. A $500 Glock with $1000 or $1500 worth of stuff to compare to a Staccato- if you lack the mental capacity to understand that a MOS cut Glock costs incrementally the same as the optic cut Staccato, and the light and holsters and all that shit cost the same, and even ignoring that factory magazines are like 1/4 the cost on the Glock, the sunburned brain from the Grand Canyon state thinks most people will spend $1000 or something on triggers and God knows what else to try and accomplish what a Staccato does... I had to go back and double check his "math." Glock MOS of any model $650 Zev Fulcrum Trigger $268 PMM Micro Comp & Barrel $360 SLR Magwell $99 Aimpoint ACRO P2 $599 FCD ACRO MOS Plate $72 Taran tactical magazine baseplates $40 and since it's on every magazine that they brought with them, that number goes up. So we are at $2084 (sic - your numbers add up to $2088) and that's IF there's only one TT baseplates and IF there's nothing else like sights were changed, etc. $2300 - 2084 = $216 and that's IF there's nothing else but I highly doubtr that as well since they already went there. I can't even with this comparison. A barrel and comp are completely unnecessary upgrades for the Glock and he's included $599 in his comparison for the optic that the Staccato doesn't come with  The Staccato P which is the most common model sold(optics ready, with the unthreaded stainless bull barrel and standard grip) is also $2499, not $2300. You are talking about a REAL delta between a Staccato P and this gucci Glock 17 of $1370, if they are both(or not) equipped with the Acro. Talk about gunslinger math
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Posted: 6/25/2023 9:43:37 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had to go back and double check his "math." I can't even with this comparison. A barrel and comp are completely unnecessary upgrades for the Glock and he's included $599 in his comparison for the optic that the Staccato doesn't come with The Staccato P which is the most common model sold(optics ready, with the unthreaded stainless bull barrel and standard grip) is also $2499, not $2300. You are talking about a REAL delta between a Staccato P and this gucci Glock 17 of $1370, if they are both(or not) equipped with the Acro. Talk about gunslinger math I can't even with your logical fallacy argument either. You do not get to decide what is necessary and what isn't. And you put words into my mouth that I never mixed either with. Next. Did you check everywhere for this pricing to confirm or no? Next. Lots of IFS there, easy to disregard since we're being a bit out there. Next. Talk about a butthurt troll's failure at math, indeed. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 10:54:45 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had to go back and double check his "math." I can't even with this comparison. A barrel and comp are completely unnecessary upgrades for the Glock and he's included $599 in his comparison for the optic that the Staccato doesn't come with The Staccato P which is the most common model sold(optics ready, with the unthreaded stainless bull barrel and standard grip) is also $2499, not $2300. You are talking about a REAL delta between a Staccato P and this gucci Glock 17 of $1370, if they are both(or not) equipped with the Acro. Talk about gunslinger math He's either a troll or too mentally incompetent to have a discussion with. Just ignore. |
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Posted: 6/25/2023 11:11:11 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's either a troll or too mentally incompetent to have a discussion with. Just ignore. So you projected once more. Nice. Also, you never intended to have a discussion with me. You intended to argue poor math that is really on you, and then trolled all along up to and including now. When I had showed you your incompetence of the argument you were being disingenuous with, you started the attacks like the above. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:25:04 AM EST
[#25]
I would like some honest opinions.
For nearly two decades I’ve been an iron sight gen 3/4 Glock 19 shooter. All stock except trigger connector. I recently picked up a Zev oz9 with 507c and nearly all my drill (I’m a 2.25 bill drill times went down by 10-20% after learning the dot. How much more could I expect my times to improve with a staccato C2 after getting used to it? |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:39:33 AM EST
[#26]
43x mos and Shadow Systems MR920 cover all my carry needs outside of being in the woods, that being said I will eventually have a nice double stack 1911. Triggers are just so damn nice in them they allow me to shoot better.
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Posted: 6/26/2023 2:06:53 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who's side are you on, the fudds? Because wanting me to make it harder to defend myself with by training on a platform that is both harder and not fun, not worth my time and money because it's pants on head stupid, is not trying to succeed with my end goals of surviving a home invasion or an attack with feral beings and using the best equipment possible that I can afford to do so with. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 3:42:30 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude, Rudukai even said using a red dot equipped revolver made him a better shooter. Using equipment that demands perfection makes you better. Using equipment that makes it easy, might let you shout better, but it doesn't make you a better shooter. It just masks your flaws. When you use the hard equipment that demands flawless technique, you get better across the board. If all you can afford is the Staccato, cool, go about your business. But to deny that something like a Glock or revolver with a dot wouldn't make you a better shooter, even with the Staccato, that's just dumb. The basic fundamental of pressing a trigger to the rear carries over across all platforms. And it's easier to perfect that fundamental on guns that make it harder. It's easier to hide your flaws on guns that make it easier. Bud, I don't care what he does and using equipment that makes it easier for me is the future plus I don't GAF about these fLaWs that is being made into a gigantic mountain out of nothing. So when I skip the counterintuitive harder equipment that demands time and resources that is better spent elsewhere and where my focus should always be, I'll be indeed better across the board because using what makes me a better shooter "flaws" and all, is the only argument that I will allow to exist since it's my time and dime. Plus I don't ever recall asking for any help in this thread on how to shoot because none was needed  And deny what again? I never said that a red dot wouldn't, quite the contrary. Please read slowly what I have written because again, you imagined me saying that in this thread. Pulling the trigger will go bang on all firearms, this isn't new and ignorant to to talk down like that. And just because they do go bang doesn't mean they will match POI with POA, because for a fact my AR's need less finger and my handguns need more finger so trigger finger placement really does matter. Doing it consistently on the same handgun that is hooked up for my uses means perfect muscle memory every and each time it is drawn. That means it's going to harder for me to use it if I only train with dead weight guns that have the utility of a paper weight. Also, it's easier for me to do it the way I know is in my best interests to do, meaning only I know what is best for me and what I need and don't need and that's a fact. Anyway... |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 4:38:42 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bud, I don't care what he does and using equipment that makes it easier for me is the future plus I don't GAF about these fLaWs that is being made into a gigantic mountain out of nothing. So when I skip the counterintuitive harder equipment that demands time and resources that is better spent elsewhere and where my focus should always be, I'll be indeed better across the board because using what makes me a better shooter "flaws" and all, is the only argument that I will allow to exist since it's my time and dime. Plus I don't ever recall asking for any help in this thread on how to shoot because none was needed And deny what again? I never said that a red dot wouldn't, quite the contrary. Please read slowly what I have written because again, you imagined me saying that in this thread. Pulling the trigger will go bang on all firearms, this isn't new and ignorant to to talk down like that. And just because they do go bang doesn't mean they will match POI with POA, because for a fact my AR's need less finger and my handguns need more finger so trigger finger placement really does matter. Doing it consistently on the same handgun that is hooked up for my uses means perfect muscle memory every and each time it is drawn. That means it's going to harder for me to use it if I only train with dead weight guns that have the utility of a paper weight. Also, it's easier for me to do it the way I know is in my best interests to do, meaning only I know what is best for me and what I need and don't need and that's a fact. Anyway... Anyway. Thank you for constantly arguing here. I wouldn't. I have too much self respect. But good for you dude. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 5:23:31 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyway. Thank you for constantly arguing here. I wouldn't. I have too much self respect. But good for you dude. Good point. I'm out. Thank you for reminding me to not suffer from fools. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 6:36:33 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's either a troll or too mentally incompetent to have a discussion with. Just ignore. Seems like the best policy 
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Posted: 6/26/2023 10:50:53 AM EST
[#32]
It's getting a little heated in here. PLEASE KNOCK OFF THE BICKERING BEFORE SOMEONE GETS IN TROUBLE.
Thanks. 
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Posted: 6/26/2023 11:29:41 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bud, I don't care what he does and using equipment that makes it easier for me is the future plus I don't GAF about these fLaWs that is being made into a gigantic mountain out of nothing. So when I skip the counterintuitive harder equipment that demands time and resources that is better spent elsewhere and where my focus should always be, I'll be indeed better across the board because using what makes me a better shooter "flaws" and all, is the only argument that I will allow to exist since it's my time and dime. Plus I don't ever recall asking for any help in this thread on how to shoot because none was needed And deny what again? I never said that a red dot wouldn't, quite the contrary. Please read slowly what I have written because again, you imagined me saying that in this thread. Pulling the trigger will go bang on all firearms, this isn't new and ignorant to to talk down like that. And just because they do go bang doesn't mean they will match POI with POA, because for a fact my AR's need less finger and my handguns need more finger so trigger finger placement really does matter. Doing it consistently on the same handgun that is hooked up for my uses means perfect muscle memory every and each time it is drawn. That means it's going to harder for me to use it if I only train with dead weight guns that have the utility of a paper weight. Also, it's easier for me to do it the way I know is in my best interests to do, meaning only I know what is best for me and what I need and don't need and that's a fact. Anyway... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Dude, Rudukai even said using a red dot equipped revolver made him a better shooter. Using equipment that demands perfection makes you better. Using equipment that makes it easy, might let you shout better, but it doesn't make you a better shooter. It just masks your flaws. When you use the hard equipment that demands flawless technique, you get better across the board. If all you can afford is the Staccato, cool, go about your business. But to deny that something like a Glock or revolver with a dot wouldn't make you a better shooter, even with the Staccato, that's just dumb. The basic fundamental of pressing a trigger to the rear carries over across all platforms. And it's easier to perfect that fundamental on guns that make it harder. It's easier to hide your flaws on guns that make it easier. Bud, I don't care what he does and using equipment that makes it easier for me is the future plus I don't GAF about these fLaWs that is being made into a gigantic mountain out of nothing. So when I skip the counterintuitive harder equipment that demands time and resources that is better spent elsewhere and where my focus should always be, I'll be indeed better across the board because using what makes me a better shooter "flaws" and all, is the only argument that I will allow to exist since it's my time and dime. Plus I don't ever recall asking for any help in this thread on how to shoot because none was needed And deny what again? I never said that a red dot wouldn't, quite the contrary. Please read slowly what I have written because again, you imagined me saying that in this thread. Pulling the trigger will go bang on all firearms, this isn't new and ignorant to to talk down like that. And just because they do go bang doesn't mean they will match POI with POA, because for a fact my AR's need less finger and my handguns need more finger so trigger finger placement really does matter. Doing it consistently on the same handgun that is hooked up for my uses means perfect muscle memory every and each time it is drawn. That means it's going to harder for me to use it if I only train with dead weight guns that have the utility of a paper weight. Also, it's easier for me to do it the way I know is in my best interests to do, meaning only I know what is best for me and what I need and don't need and that's a fact. Anyway... Anyways, it doesn't matter where your finger is. You just need to pull the trigger straight to the rear. I go from DA revolvers to 1911s without a hitch. People who say "I know what's best for me" are the worst patients. I mean, if you did then you wouldn't be a mess. Same goes for shooters. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 11:31:31 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would like some honest opinions. For nearly two decades I’ve been an iron sight gen 3/4 Glock 19 shooter. All stock except trigger connector. I recently picked up a Zev oz9 with 507c and nearly all my drill (I’m a 2.25 bill drill times went down by 10-20% after learning the dot. How much more could I expect my times to improve with a staccato C2 after getting used to it? I'd be pretty impressed if you're beating your 1.85 sec bill drill. That's smoking. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 11:47:11 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd be pretty impressed if you're beating your 1.85 sec bill drill. That's smoking. Sorry, what I meant was that I'm a 2.25 average bill drill after getting the zev. before was more like 2.60 with stock gen 4 glock 19 with irons. Only have had a couple sub 2 second bill drills in my life out of hundreds of attempts. I guess what i'm trying to get out of people is measurable improvements going from a "gucci glock" to a stacatto C2. I know everyone says "get a P" but I know I would never get myself to carry something that big. C2 would be absolute maximum. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:01:15 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, what I meant was that I'm a 2.25 average bill drill after getting the zev. before was more like 2.60 with stock gen 4 glock 19 with irons. Only have had a couple sub 2 second bill drills in my life out of hundreds of attempts. I guess what i'm trying to get out of people is measurable improvements going from a "gucci glock" to a stacatto C2. I know everyone says "get a P" but I know I would never get myself to carry something that big. C2 would be absolute maximum. Bill drills measure 3 things, Draw...that should not change based on the gun if you are using the same holster and can get a full grip on the gun Recoil control...It really should be a wash as you should easily be able to keep all shots in the A zone with any of these guns. Splits. You might be able to run faster split with a SAO if you ride the reset, but until you get sub .2 splits consistently, it really isn't a big deal Where did you gain the most amount of time when you went bone stock to gucci? Draw or Splits? |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:18:52 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah but when a 1911 style gun runs it's amazing. Your post seems to be focused on a fighting gun and I have no problem admitting that a glock type gun or CZ75 is better for that. A tuned CZ type gun is fantastic and is closer to a 2011 than a glock in my opinion. That being said there's a reason you see so many 2011 guns at the top levels of competition shooting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can consistently shoot my STI better than my 226 and a lot better than I can shoot a glock 26 especially if it is at 50+ yards and/or a smaller target. Why is it that pretty much nobody at the top level shoots a stock glock? Something similar to my Edge is so much easier to shoot than a Glock 17. Basically there are so many issues with 1911s that a slightly better trigger isn't really worth it. Probably the biggest Glock fans are the hardcore 1911 shooters. The US Army's Delta Force used to just run hand-built 1911s but went over to Glocks. You don't have to re-stake a plunger tube, tune a grip safety, tune an extractor, worry about weak mag springs, etc. For practical carry 1911s are extremely heavy and you can find that the thumb safety has been inadvertently swiped off if you're using a leather IWB holster. The Staccato actually fixes several issues with the 1911 like going to an integral plunger tube, which is nice. But has the superior doublestack 9mm 1911 already been invented and is it called the CZ-75, particularly the latest variants like the Shadow 2? Just a question. I thought my 1911 was awesome and since I had been practicing a ton with it, surely it would perform far better than my Gen 2 G22. The range results showed that I was shooting both about the same, and the old Gen 2 G22 in .40 isn't supposed to be that easy to shoot. Here is a good article: http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=3563#more-3563 Yeah but when a 1911 style gun runs it's amazing. Your post seems to be focused on a fighting gun and I have no problem admitting that a glock type gun or CZ75 is better for that. A tuned CZ type gun is fantastic and is closer to a 2011 than a glock in my opinion. That being said there's a reason you see so many 2011 guns at the top levels of competition shooting. I think it's a little disingenuous to hint 1911s need constant maintenance. It's really not that much. For agencies yes I think it's probably to much but not for a single user. I'm surprised Dr Roberts baseline 1911 is a Pro. Don't get me wrong. I dream of owning a Pro some day but even today base Springfield's or Colt will do better then fine at around a grand. I actually rolled my eyes when I read that and I respect Dr Roberts greatly. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:20:43 PM EST
[#38]
Bill Drill side match winner this weekend at CO nats ran a 1.17 Bill I think.
That’s insanely fast. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:21:36 PM EST
[#39]
Draw to first shot remained consistent but split time improved so I guess that further refined my question to what improvement will SAO give me? Splits are .19 to .20 now.
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:25:39 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, what I meant was that I'm a 2.25 average bill drill after getting the zev. before was more like 2.60 with stock gen 4 glock 19 with irons. Only have had a couple sub 2 second bill drills in my life out of hundreds of attempts. I guess what i'm trying to get out of people is measurable improvements going from a "gucci glock" to a stacatto C2. I know everyone says "get a P" but I know I would never get myself to carry something that big. C2 would be absolute maximum. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd be pretty impressed if you're beating your 1.85 sec bill drill. That's smoking. Sorry, what I meant was that I'm a 2.25 average bill drill after getting the zev. before was more like 2.60 with stock gen 4 glock 19 with irons. Only have had a couple sub 2 second bill drills in my life out of hundreds of attempts. I guess what i'm trying to get out of people is measurable improvements going from a "gucci glock" to a stacatto C2. I know everyone says "get a P" but I know I would never get myself to carry something that big. C2 would be absolute maximum. Got it. You might be able to get a bit closer to 2 consistently. Is 0.1-.2 seconds worth 2-3 k? I regularly carry magnum revolvers and am perfectly confident I can handle any issue I might face with a gun that slows me down a half second on a bill drill. In fact I'm a big believer in not shooting faster than I can assess. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:27:19 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bill drills measure 3 things, Draw...that should not change based on the gun if you are using the same holster and can get a full grip on the gun Recoil control...It really should be a wash as you should easily be able to keep all shots in the A zone with any of these guns. Splits. You might be able to run faster split with a SAO if you ride the reset, but until you get sub .2 splits consistently, it really isn't a big deal Where did you gain the most amount of time when you went bone stock to gucci? Draw or Splits? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sorry, what I meant was that I'm a 2.25 average bill drill after getting the zev. before was more like 2.60 with stock gen 4 glock 19 with irons. Only have had a couple sub 2 second bill drills in my life out of hundreds of attempts. I guess what i'm trying to get out of people is measurable improvements going from a "gucci glock" to a stacatto C2. I know everyone says "get a P" but I know I would never get myself to carry something that big. C2 would be absolute maximum. Bill drills measure 3 things, Draw...that should not change based on the gun if you are using the same holster and can get a full grip on the gun Recoil control...It really should be a wash as you should easily be able to keep all shots in the A zone with any of these guns. Splits. You might be able to run faster split with a SAO if you ride the reset, but until you get sub .2 splits consistently, it really isn't a big deal Where did you gain the most amount of time when you went bone stock to gucci? Draw or Splits? When I'm rolling I'm hitting .2 splits with a DA k frame. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:28:56 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bill Drill side match winner this weekend at CO nats ran a 1.17 Bill I think. That’s insanely fast. That is awesome. Just out of pure curiosity I would love to see him shoot a bill drill right after that with something like a stock Glock 43x with iron sights. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:30:54 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Draw to first shot remained consistent but split time improved so I guess that further refined my question to what improvement will SAO give me? Splits are .19 to .20 now. Steve Anderson has posted 1.50 Bills with an unmodified PDP, I want to say with a .70 draw.. then that is .8 for the rest of the shots which equates to .16 splits. Granted the PDP has a pretty nice trigger for a striker gun. Isaac Lockwood does some even faster Bills and he uses a Bruce Gray P320. I think you could get your splits down a bit more with practice. Striker guns can run quite fast. Granted most don’t have OEM triggers. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:32:02 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bill Drill side match winner this weekend at CO nats ran a 1.17 Bill I think. That’s insanely fast. Wow I hover around 2  Attached FileA bit slower shooting magnums though  Bill drill with M19-3 shooting .357 magnum. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:33:52 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Steve Anderson has posted 1.50 Bills with an unmodified PDP, I want to say with a .70 draw.. then that is .8 for the rest of the shots which equates to .16 splits. Granted the PDP has a pretty nice trigger for a striker gun. Isaac Lockwood does some even faster Bills and he uses a Bruce Gray P320. I think you could get your splits down a bit more with practice. Striker guns can run quite fast. Granted most don’t have OEM triggers. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Draw to first shot remained consistent but split time improved so I guess that further refined my question to what improvement will SAO give me? Splits are .19 to .20 now. Steve Anderson has posted 1.50 Bills with an unmodified PDP, I want to say with a .70 draw.. then that is .8 for the rest of the shots which equates to .16 splits. Granted the PDP has a pretty nice trigger for a striker gun. Isaac Lockwood does some even faster Bills and he uses a Bruce Gray P320. I think you could get your splits down a bit more with practice. Striker guns can run quite fast. Granted most don’t have OEM triggers. I love watching people draw for 0.7-.9 shots. They're so efficient it almost looks slow |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:39:48 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I love watching people draw for 0.7-.9 shots. They're so efficient it almost looks slow I’m be watched a few videos where some guys were really letting go and it was fun. One was Todd Jarrett and I think Rob Leatham. They kept going back and forth to the point where I don’t think they were even getting sight pictures  kinda like the Taran from the waist stuff.
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Posted: 6/26/2023 12:46:01 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's getting a little heated in here. PLEASE KNOCK OFF THE BICKERING BEFORE SOMEONE GETS IN TROUBLE. Thanks. 10/16 pages are two clowns going back and forth. One of these two is habitual, and you guys do nothing to wrangle him in. I feel badly for anyone thinking this would be a staccato discussion, even in GD. Problem is, you ignore him in tech too. |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 1:01:00 PM EST
[#48]
Took my new C2 to the range to test out. It was already lubed still. Ran 300rds through it. 200rd of 124gr and 100rd of 115gr Norma ammo. Ran flawless and no issues.
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Posted: 6/26/2023 1:26:53 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Draw to first shot remained consistent but split time improved so I guess that further refined my question to what improvement will SAO give me? Splits are .19 to .20 now. You might be able to get them slightly lower, but you are really getting to a minimal gains for large efforts. Plus you might be near the limit that you can physically pull the trigger consistently. I will rarely be able to run .16 splits, but shoot with people that can do that on command. How are you splits out to 25 yards. More importantly, how are your transitions? Are they the same for targets splits? A lot of people are very slow on transitions, but try to make up time on their splits |
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Posted: 6/26/2023 1:33:34 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You might be able to get them slightly lower, but you are really getting to a minimal gains for large efforts. Plus you might be near the limit you can physically pull the trigger consistently. How are you splits out to 25 yards. More importantly, how are your transitions? Are they the same for targets splits? I need to to more transition work. I don't have enough data to say. I think my physical limit is about 1.80 as that is what i get when I allow myself to shoot anything on a n Ipsc target. I guess another metric is that I have a flyer about every 3 attempts. What I haven't mentioned already is that I perceive a lot less effort with the zev and before with a stock glock I had a bill drill flyer every other attempt. It sounds like the answer is that I just need to try one and decide if the bigger size and different battery of arms is worth it (and the cost). |
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