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Posted: 6/17/2023 11:54:02 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've shot an STI before... it was nice. Was it work $2k+? Not for me. Perhaps for some. As an instructor I would say most people are better off with $2,000 in training and a modern $500 pistol that requires less maintenance. If you're a serious competitor and money is no object... go for it. I've shot STIs as well, and shelled out $2,500-3k on handguns. I approve of this message. In fact, one of my buddies used to shoot a bit better than me; but he was a family guy and had a limited budget so he was forced into the $500 pistol and spent his extra cash on training and ammo instead. I certainly spent a lot on training and ammo; but the amount I spent trying to get better than him with equipment would have definitely been better spent on training. After 20 years, he's now a lot better than me; but age is finally letting me catch up to him. |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 12:19:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: When the vast majority of people are not capable of firing a handgun accurately anyway, why spend the scratch for a Staccato when a Glock 19 is more accurate than most of us and way cheaper? Didn't know what a staccato or why posters was making a big deal about one in the thread with a video clip with the police at the robbery suspect's appt shooting. Now maybe I'll find out in this thread. |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 2:11:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is what I meant earlier about how 1911s will draw you into making excuses for them. Not that you should be making excuses for any other type of gun.  I was very clear in stating, the Prodigy .in particular .is considered trash by many. It isn't. I own STI, Atlas, Wilson, Les Baer, and several custom shop versions. How is replacing anything on a 1911 any different than replacing a factory trigger on a Glock with an Apex trigger as an example? It isn't. I have spent more time working on Glocks, M&P and SIGs than any 1911/2011 I own. |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 6:53:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh look, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit either? I was very clear in stating, the Prodigy .in particular .is considered trash by many. It isn't. I own STI, Atlas, Wilson, Les Baer, and several custom shop versions. How is replacing anything on a 1911 any different than replacing a factory trigger on a Glock with an Apex trigger as an example? It isn't. I have spent more time working on Glocks, M&P and SIGs than any 1911/2011 I own. |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 7:58:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you ever thought of just only running the Glocks? That way all your concentration is on one platform. You could sell the Staccatos and buy a ton of ammo for your Glocks. Years of Glocks only, then a couple years of Staccato only. Then back to Glocks for 2-3 years, now back to Staccato's, for good. Kept a couple Glocks in storage. |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 8:00:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you are going to over spend on a 9mm 1911, be a man. Buy an Atlas. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/209044/IMG_20230615_134039178_HDR_jpg-2853378.JPG Atlas is a great company, great guns, great service but after owning a couple, then having to cancel the Ares (After they botched the frame coatings), no longer interested. I feel they're better suited for competition vs duty/ hard use. They get too cute. Staccato kinda like the Glock of 2011. |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 8:01:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because it's a lot nicer to shoot than a Glock, it's fancy compared to a Glock, the steel frame version basically doesn't move, etc But I still carry a G19 every day. It's a flex like most shit here.... |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 8:06:10 PM EDT
[#8]
staccatos are the double stack 1911's for the poors
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Posted: 6/17/2023 8:18:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atlas is a great company, great guns, great service but after owning a couple, then having to cancel the Ares (After they botched the frame coatings), no longer interested. I feel they're better suited for competition vs duty/ hard use. They get too cute. Staccato kinda like the Glock of 2011. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you are going to over spend on a 9mm 1911, be a man. Buy an Atlas. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/209044/IMG_20230615_134039178_HDR_jpg-2853378.JPG Atlas is a great company, great guns, great service but after owning a couple, then having to cancel the Ares (After they botched the frame coatings), no longer interested. I feel they're better suited for competition vs duty/ hard use. They get too cute. Staccato kinda like the Glock of 2011. Were there other problems aside from the frame coating issue? Are you saying the Staccato is better suited for duty/ hard use or that 2011's aren't suitable for that use at all? |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 8:24:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Atlas is a great company, great guns, great service but after owning a couple, then having to cancel the Ares (After they botched the frame coatings), no longer interested. I feel they're better suited for competition vs duty/ hard use. They get too cute. Staccato kinda like the Glock of 2011. I knew you’d be back. 
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Posted: 6/17/2023 10:37:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: staccatos are the double stack 1911's for the poors Lol no They are the cheapest decent 2011 option. The 2011 for the poors is not an apt analogy. I don't even think you get the concept of "the poors". The poors would say muh PSA dagger just as gud |
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Posted: 6/17/2023 10:38:56 PM EDT
[#12]
I say that having shot several Atlas pistols which make my Stacatto gay.
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Posted: 6/17/2023 10:43:04 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:42:12 AM EDT
[#14]
Because my Atlas hasn’t arrived yet
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Posted: 6/18/2023 1:22:39 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you ever thought of just only running the Glocks? That way all your concentration is on one platform. You could sell the Staccatos and buy a ton of ammo for your Glocks. Have you ever thought of giving your schtick a rest? He could keep both and run both and probably has more ammo than you or me both, it really is ignorant to think that people don't have enough ammo. And sticking to just one platform is redundantly boring and not fun and makes shooting feeling like a chore and not fun anymore. Plus it's good to be well rounded because muscle memory dispels the sticking to only one type of gun myths. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 1:28:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've shot an STI before... it was nice. Was it work $2k+? Not for me. Perhaps for some. As an instructor I would say most people are better off with $2,000 in training and a modern $500 pistol that requires less maintenance. If you're a serious competitor and money is no object... go for it. As an instructor your job is to drum up business, so of course you'd say that. Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic. I see nothing wrong with doing either, but both end up being costly. I will say that a bare bones no optic $500 gun is not going to beat a bare bones no optic 2011, and quite frankly I'd rather have the one that's going to give me every edge possible should the unfortunate happen. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 2:43:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic. Where are you pulling these numbers from? My EDC cost: M&P 2.0 Compact optics ready - $590 Apex Trigger - $180 (there's a $110 option if you want to save money) Apex semi drop-in barrel - $200 C&H optic plate - $50 (not strictly necessary - the gun comes with plastic plates) Total: $1020 I don't know what model of Staccato you're referencing, but I just looked up a C2 on their website, and it lists a base model at $2300 (and doesn't include any optic plates, so you'll have to add that cost). 2300-1020 = 1280 $1280 less (44% of the Staccato's price) and I have an arguably better handgun for self defense. (not my thread) https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns/I-ll-make-my-own-Staccato-but-better-With-blackjack-and-hookers-/16-206013/ |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 9:06:24 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As an instructor your job is to drum up business, so of course you'd say that. Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic. I see nothing wrong with doing either, but both end up being costly. I will say that a bare bones no optic $500 gun is not going to beat a bare bones no optic 2011, and quite frankly I'd rather have the one that's going to give me every edge possible should the unfortunate happen. Box stock guns will be just fine for classes. There is no need to upgrade anything |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:24:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where are you pulling these numbers from? My EDC cost: M&P 2.0 Compact optics ready - $590 Apex Trigger - $180 (there's a $110 option if you want to save money) Apex semi drop-in barrel - $200 C&H optic plate - $50 (not strictly necessary - the gun comes with plastic plates) Total: $1020 I don't know what model of Staccato you're referencing, but I just looked up a C2 on their website, and it lists a base model at $2300 (and doesn't include any optic plates, so you'll have to add that cost). 2300-1020 = 1280 $1280 less (44% of the Staccato's price) and I have an arguably better handgun for self defense. (not my thread) https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns/I-ll-make-my-own-Staccato-but-better-With-blackjack-and-hookers-/16-206013/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic. Where are you pulling these numbers from? My EDC cost: M&P 2.0 Compact optics ready - $590 Apex Trigger - $180 (there's a $110 option if you want to save money) Apex semi drop-in barrel - $200 C&H optic plate - $50 (not strictly necessary - the gun comes with plastic plates) Total: $1020 I don't know what model of Staccato you're referencing, but I just looked up a C2 on their website, and it lists a base model at $2300 (and doesn't include any optic plates, so you'll have to add that cost). 2300-1020 = 1280 $1280 less (44% of the Staccato's price) and I have an arguably better handgun for self defense. (not my thread) https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns/I-ll-make-my-own-Staccato-but-better-With-blackjack-and-hookers-/16-206013/ I'm sure that's a great pistol build for carry and competition, but it's not a Staccato. Not even close. Unless you discount significant differences in: weight, trigger, and ergonomics. 87% of the Staccato Bros already have a polymer/striker fired gun with all the options they care about. And yet for whatever reason they didn't find it "Joost ass Gud" or "arguably better." |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 10:42:33 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Box stock guns will be just fine for classes. There is no need to upgrade anything Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As an instructor your job is to drum up business, so of course you'd say that. Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic. I see nothing wrong with doing either, but both end up being costly. I will say that a bare bones no optic $500 gun is not going to beat a bare bones no optic 2011, and quite frankly I'd rather have the one that's going to give me every edge possible should the unfortunate happen. Box stock guns will be just fine for classes. There is no need to upgrade anything Have you been to a gun store or gun show in the last 3-5 years? Easily 15-25% of pistols being sold are being sold with optics, optic cuts, or trigger upgrades. Boomers are enthusiastically selling Staccato and Shadow system modded Glocks to Fudds now. The future is now old man. You can still defend yourself with a Colt SAA... But virtually no one does. And if you end up defending yourself with an SAA, from criminals with Glocks, you are at a significant disadvantage. If you don't believe that better trigger, sights and capacity improve shooting performance, I don't know what to tell you. Yes, proficiency with lesser gear can trump someone who sucks with great gear. But why not be proficient with great gear? For most it's nothing but a motivator to improve. I'm old and cheap. I didn't want to switch to mrds on my pistols. I didn't want to spend $100 on a new trigger (fuck you Glock for your 3 decades of shitty triggers) But I did it to improve, and I have. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:26:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you been to a gun store or gun show in the last 3-5 years? Easily 15-25% of pistols being sold are being sold with optics, optic cuts, or trigger upgrades. Boomers are enthusiastically selling Staccato and Shadow system modded Glocks to Fudds now. The future is now old man. You can still defend yourself with a Colt SAA... But virtually no one does. And if you end up defending yourself with an SAA, from criminals with Glocks, you are at a significant disadvantage. If you don't believe that better trigger, sights and capacity improve shooting performance, I don't know what to tell you. Yes, proficiency with lesser gear can trump someone who sucks with great gear. But why not be proficient with great gear? For most it's nothing but a motivator to improve. I'm old and cheap. I didn't want to switch to mrds on my pistols. I didn't want to spend $100 on a new trigger (fuck you Glock for your 3 decades of shitty triggers) But I did it to improve, and I have. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:33:15 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you think General Patton was a joke? https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NPG-NPG_99_5 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Have you been to a gun store or gun show in the last 3-5 years? Easily 15-25% of pistols being sold are being sold with optics, optic cuts, or trigger upgrades. Boomers are enthusiastically selling Staccato and Shadow system modded Glocks to Fudds now. The future is now old man. You can still defend yourself with a Colt SAA... But virtually no one does. And if you end up defending yourself with an SAA, from criminals with Glocks, you are at a significant disadvantage. If you don't believe that better trigger, sights and capacity improve shooting performance, I don't know what to tell you. Yes, proficiency with lesser gear can trump someone who sucks with great gear. But why not be proficient with great gear? For most it's nothing but a motivator to improve. I'm old and cheap. I didn't want to switch to mrds on my pistols. I didn't want to spend $100 on a new trigger (fuck you Glock for your 3 decades of shitty triggers) But I did it to improve, and I have. https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NPG-NPG_99_5 With all that up close combat he did he must be really good with it. Usually when you see similar guns it's purely for the coolness factor obviously not the case here. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:36:54 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you think General Patton was a joke? https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NPG-NPG_99_5 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Have you been to a gun store or gun show in the last 3-5 years? Easily 15-25% of pistols being sold are being sold with optics, optic cuts, or trigger upgrades. Boomers are enthusiastically selling Staccato and Shadow system modded Glocks to Fudds now. The future is now old man. You can still defend yourself with a Colt SAA... But virtually no one does. And if you end up defending yourself with an SAA, from criminals with Glocks, you are at a significant disadvantage. If you don't believe that better trigger, sights and capacity improve shooting performance, I don't know what to tell you. Yes, proficiency with lesser gear can trump someone who sucks with great gear. But why not be proficient with great gear? For most it's nothing but a motivator to improve. I'm old and cheap. I didn't want to switch to mrds on my pistols. I didn't want to spend $100 on a new trigger (fuck you Glock for your 3 decades of shitty triggers) But I did it to improve, and I have. https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NPG-NPG_99_5 He is not a joke, he is a badass. He also would not be an idiot on the internet, claiming that the SAA was just as good, or a superior weapon to the 1911 in 1944. He wouldn't have been saying things like "there's no need" for this upgraded 1911 or Garand for the troops. Save your money. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 11:43:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With all that up close combat he did he must be really good with it. Usually when you see similar guns it's purely for the coolness factor obviously not the case here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Have you been to a gun store or gun show in the last 3-5 years? Easily 15-25% of pistols being sold are being sold with optics, optic cuts, or trigger upgrades. Boomers are enthusiastically selling Staccato and Shadow system modded Glocks to Fudds now. The future is now old man. You can still defend yourself with a Colt SAA... But virtually no one does. And if you end up defending yourself with an SAA, from criminals with Glocks, you are at a significant disadvantage. If you don't believe that better trigger, sights and capacity improve shooting performance, I don't know what to tell you. Yes, proficiency with lesser gear can trump someone who sucks with great gear. But why not be proficient with great gear? For most it's nothing but a motivator to improve. I'm old and cheap. I didn't want to switch to mrds on my pistols. I didn't want to spend $100 on a new trigger (fuck you Glock for your 3 decades of shitty triggers) But I did it to improve, and I have. https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NPG-NPG_99_5 With all that up close combat he did he must be really good with it. Usually when you see similar guns it's purely for the coolness factor obviously not the case here. Well the guy learned to shoot pistols over 100 years ago, and nothing has changed in the last 100 years in firearms tech or how they are used/carried, that would impact this discussion. Also we know for a fact that everyone who was ever in the military, is a master of pistols and pistol tech, because pistols have been the deciding factor in most wars. Anyone who knows anything about the military and doctrine can tell you that. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:40:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well the guy learned to shoot pistols over 100 years ago, and nothing has changed in the last 100 years in firearms tech or how they are used/carried, that would impact this discussion. Also we know for a fact that everyone who was ever in the military, is a master of pistols and pistol tech, because pistols have been the deciding factor in most wars. Anyone who knows anything about the military and doctrine can tell you that. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 12:45:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The world's most elite and selective military units shoot more than you, have seen combat more than you, and know more than you. They just use Glocks. A) Not all of them do B) Budget and maintenance costs are a thing You want to make IPSC relevant? Remove all the mag, caliber, box size stuff and just gove them a set budget per season that encompasses all your gear, ammo, and maintenance. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 2:06:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As an instructor your job is to drum up business, so of course you'd say that. Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic. I see nothing wrong with doing either, but both end up being costly. I will say that a bare bones no optic $500 gun is not going to beat a bare bones no optic 2011, and quite frankly I'd rather have the one that's going to give me every edge possible should the unfortunate happen. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've shot an STI before... it was nice. Was it work $2k+? Not for me. Perhaps for some. As an instructor I would say most people are better off with $2,000 in training and a modern $500 pistol that requires less maintenance. If you're a serious competitor and money is no object... go for it. As an instructor your job is to drum up business, so of course you'd say that. Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic. I see nothing wrong with doing either, but both end up being costly. I will say that a bare bones no optic $500 gun is not going to beat a bare bones no optic 2011, and quite frankly I'd rather have the one that's going to give me every edge possible should the unfortunate happen. How does a $500 Glock become a $1500 Glock for carry? Take the optic out because that's the same. Also the light. If you want, replace the sights. There's $150 on the high end. Then what? Maybe a trigger job? What's the new Glock performance trigger cost, like less than $100? Dang. That $500 glock just became $750. Which is what, $2000 less than an entry level 2011 like a Staccato? Is it going to shoot as well as a Staccato? Nope. Is it going to make a difference in the hands of a mid-level trained guy? Nope. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 2:43:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A) Not all of them do B) Budget and maintenance costs are a thing You want to make IPSC relevant? Remove all the mag, caliber, box size stuff and just gove them a set budget per season that encompasses all your gear, ammo, and maintenance. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 2:51:19 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 6/18/2023 2:52:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a friend who is in a top tier unit. He said they were endurance testing the new Hi Point 10mm but had to end up selecting the 380 because they already have the 380 carbines. Budget allowing they may acquire some Bersa Thunders, also in 380, for deep cover situations. You know, the funny part is any of those would work for a short-term solution. You'd need la lot of them to get through the pre-deployment workup though. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 2:52:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They look amazing. Does anyone here CC a staccato? Is there a sub compact version? Do they hold up well in dirt? Rain? And being dragged through the dirt again if it was in a OWB holster? Sounds like the same argument can be made about a Ferrari.(... except the part about how to carry a Ferrari.) People buy it for bling & 'cause it performs like a well oiled machine. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 3:21:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The world's most elite and selective military units shoot more than you, have seen combat more than you, and know more than you. They just use Glocks. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well the guy learned to shoot pistols over 100 years ago, and nothing has changed in the last 100 years in firearms tech or how they are used/carried, that would impact this discussion. Also we know for a fact that everyone who was ever in the military, is a master of pistols and pistol tech, because pistols have been the deciding factor in most wars. Anyone who knows anything about the military and doctrine can tell you that. 
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Posted: 6/18/2023 3:42:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They look amazing. Does anyone here CC a staccato? Is there a sub compact version? Do they hold up well in dirt? Rain? And being dragged through the dirt again if it was in a OWB holster? There is the CS, a Glock-26 sized version but a bit chunkier due to metal frame. However, that also makes it shoot easier even before the dramatically better trigger. As far as holding up, it's based on the 1911. So, it's not a shrinking violet by any means; but it isn't likely to hang with modern polymer pistols or be as cheap to fix when it does break. Mags are also a little more touchy as well. I'm projecting as I have nowhere near enough time with one to give an informed answer. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 5:07:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is the CS, a Glock-26 sized version but a bit chunkier due to metal frame. However, that also makes it shoot easier even before the dramatically better trigger. As far as holding up, it's based on the 1911. So, it's not a shrinking violet by any means; but it isn't likely to hang with modern polymer pistols or be as cheap to fix when it does break. Mags are also a little more touchy as well. I'm projecting as I have nowhere near enough time with one to give an informed answer. A properly build 2011 will hang with polymer pistol. I have several that were 60k when they were sold. Barrels had lost speed. But they were still very accurate and reliable. The key is having it properly build. |
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Posted: 6/18/2023 5:54:44 PM EDT
[#35]
I don't know why, but now I want one. Thanks a lot, fellas.
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Posted: 6/18/2023 6:04:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know why, but now I want one. Thanks a lot, fellas. Brother I converted two haters at Keystone this week. They were like okay screw you whiskers thanks a lot |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 1:12:57 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know why, but now I want one. Thanks a lot, fellas. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 1:23:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The world's most elite and selective military units shoot more than you, have seen combat more than you, and know more than you. They just use Glocks. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well the guy learned to shoot pistols over 100 years ago, and nothing has changed in the last 100 years in firearms tech or how they are used/carried, that would impact this discussion. Also we know for a fact that everyone who was ever in the military, is a master of pistols and pistol tech, because pistols have been the deciding factor in most wars. Anyone who knows anything about the military and doctrine can tell you that. 
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Posted: 6/19/2023 1:45:24 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where are you pulling these numbers from? My EDC cost: M&P 2.0 Compact optics ready - $590 Apex Trigger - $180 (there's a $110 option if you want to save money) Apex semi drop-in barrel - $200 C&H optic plate - $50 (not strictly necessary - the gun comes with plastic plates) Total: $1020 I don't know what model of Staccato you're referencing, but I just looked up a C2 on their website, and it lists a base model at $2300 (and doesn't include any optic plates, so you'll have to add that cost). 2300-1020 = 1280 $1280 less (44% of the Staccato's price) and I have an arguably better handgun for self defense. (not my thread) https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns/I-ll-make-my-own-Staccato-but-better-With-blackjack-and-hookers-/16-206013/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Also as a student who has taken these classes, that $500 pistol ends up becoming a $1,500 gun, even a $2,000 gun so now it's a $4,000 expenditure. Meanwhile the 2011 just runs with not much else needed, other than an optic. Where are you pulling these numbers from? My EDC cost: M&P 2.0 Compact optics ready - $590 Apex Trigger - $180 (there's a $110 option if you want to save money) Apex semi drop-in barrel - $200 C&H optic plate - $50 (not strictly necessary - the gun comes with plastic plates) Total: $1020 I don't know what model of Staccato you're referencing, but I just looked up a C2 on their website, and it lists a base model at $2300 (and doesn't include any optic plates, so you'll have to add that cost). 2300-1020 = 1280 $1280 less (44% of the Staccato's price) and I have an arguably better handgun for self defense. (not my thread) https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns/I-ll-make-my-own-Staccato-but-better-With-blackjack-and-hookers-/16-206013/ They're coming from people not owning or using the same things as you Glock MOS of any model $650 Zev Fulcrum Trigger $268 PMM Micro Comp & Barrel $360 SLR Magwell $99 Aimpoint ACRO P2 $599 FCD ACRO MOS Plate $72 Taran tactical magazine baseplates $40 and since it's on every magazine that they brought with them, that number goes up. So we are at $2084 and that's IF there's only one TT baseplates and IF there's nothing else like sights were changed, etc. $2300 - 2084 = $216 and that's IF there's nothing else but I highly doubtr that as well since they already went there. You may have a better gun for you, but that's for you. You're not taking the account for others and what else is out there. And having come back from a combat pistol only match, I will tell you that even all of that, an iron sighted Staccato C2 was beating everyone else and the only reason that guy with the Staccato came in second? Because he was beaten by another Staccato C2 owner who had an RMR on it and nothing else but the gun that came to him from the factory. I didn't click on thread, I cannot take anything serious with it being titled that way. But anyways, now I want a Staccato even more now, and am willing to sell off a good bit of my handguns if that's what it takes to get one if need be. Edit, also add $332 for a Surefire X300 Turbo, thanks to a guy that thought he was going to have an effective counter argument to discredit me, but actually helped my argument even more and had discredited himself by not doing the math correctly. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 1:51:15 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Box stock guns will be just fine for classes. There is no need to upgrade anything That's not true, just an opinion and there are also various stages of classes from beginners to advanced shooters to take. And anyone who says that there is no need for anything is someone I generally stop listening to, because 9,999 times out of 10,000, they really don't know what a person really needs or doesn't need and are just opining a personal opinion of theirs based on the unknown in hopes that that they can influence someone and pretty much setting them up for failure IMO based on past experiences with those telling me what I didn't and did need. They were wrong and a life lesson was learned to ignore these types. YMMV |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 1:54:06 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The world's most elite and selective military units shoot more than you, have seen combat more than you, and know more than you. They just use Glocks. Appeals to muh authorities. That's stupid to rebuttal with. Makes you look uneducated because you cannot form a coherent argument to debate with and that's just sad. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 2:00:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does a $500 Glock become a $1500 Glock for carry? Take the optic out because that's the same. Also the light. If you want, replace the sights. There's $150 on the high end. Then what? Maybe a trigger job? What's the new Glock performance trigger cost, like less than $100? Dang. That $500 glock just became $750. Which is what, $2000 less than an entry level 2011 like a Staccato? Is it going to shoot as well as a Staccato? Nope. Is it going to make a difference in the hands of a mid-level trained guy? Nope. Did you even think this through before posting? Nope. Did you take the time to do the math properly even before posting a thoughtless visceral post? Nope. And will a highly trained person with an even better performing gun going to be performing even better? Yup. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 2:02:09 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The world's most elite and selective military units shoot more than you, have seen combat more than you, and know more than you. They just use Glocks. Pistols other than Glocks are in use by Tier 1 Units |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 2:29:12 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pistols other than Glocks are in use by Tier 1 Units |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 2:30:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brother I converted two haters at Keystone this week. They were like okay screw you whiskers thanks a lot I was down at Austin at Best of the West when I came across my first STI. I already had two custom Hi-Powers over the $2k mark and a lot of time shooting them. That STI though, was just like "I'd like bullet holes to appear here" and it did. The thing is, every time I switched between Glocks and Hi-Powers, I needed about 500 rounds to readjust to the new trigger. And the Hi-Powers are maintenance intensive compared to the Glocks. So, my thought is the STI/Staccato is so easy to shoot, you won't understand a lot of your flaws until you grab a stock pistol. And if you are shooting a lot, it likely won't be cheap to maintain either. I could have literally bought multiple, nice pistols for what I've spent on Hi-Power replacement parts. The Glock 26 I bought in 2000 is still running and the only part replaced on it is a factory recall recoil spring assembly that cost me nada. And if I'd been carrying the Hi-Power, I'll likely shoot you you two inches low, left of where I intended to shoot ypu. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 2:35:47 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was down at Austin at Best of the West when I came across my first STI. I already had two custom Hi-Powers over the $2k mark and a lot of time shooting them. That STI though, was just like "I'd like bullet holes to appear here" and it did. The thing is, every time I switched between Glocks and Hi-Powers, I needed about 500 rounds to readjust to the new trigger. And the Hi-Powers are maintenance intensive compared to the Glocks. So, my thought is the STI/Staccato is so easy to shoot, you won't understand a lot of your flaws until you grab a stock pistol. And if you are shooting a lot, it likely won't be cheap to maintain either. I could have literally bought multiple, nice pistols for what I've spent on Hi-Power replacement parts. The Glock 26 I bought in 2000 is still running and the only part replaced on it is a factory recall recoil spring assembly that cost me nada. And if I'd been carrying the Hi-Power, I'll likely shoot you you two inches low, left of where I intended to shoot ypu. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 2:59:25 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was down at Austin at Best of the West when I came across my first STI. I already had two custom Hi-Powers over the $2k mark and a lot of time shooting them. That STI though, was just like "I'd like bullet holes to appear here" and it did. The thing is, every time I switched between Glocks and Hi-Powers, I needed about 500 rounds to readjust to the new trigger. And the Hi-Powers are maintenance intensive compared to the Glocks. So, my thought is the STI/Staccato is so easy to shoot, you won't understand a lot of your flaws until you grab a stock pistol. And if you are shooting a lot, it likely won't be cheap to maintain either. I could have literally bought multiple, nice pistols for what I've spent on Hi-Power replacement parts. The Glock 26 I bought in 2000 is still running and the only part replaced on it is a factory recall recoil spring assembly that cost me nada. And if I'd been carrying the Hi-Power, I'll likely shoot you you two inches low, left of where I intended to shoot you. The average person whom isn't arguing worthless minutia isn't thinking to wanting a gun that would show their flaws, they're thinking about buying, a gun that gives them every edge possible to win a gunfight should it happen. It's not supposed to be a fair fight where we both have the same model of gun, the same caliber, and walk ten paces in the opposite directions of each other then turn and fire. I do get what you are saying but a Model 10 revolver DA will indeed show my flaws but an easier to shoot semiauto will save my life more efficiently than that Model 10. So choosing between the two, I am going to carry that semiauto each and every time over the Model 10 because if you're not cheating, then you really aren't trying to win that gunfight. But am puzzled by that statement about the trigger finger needing to adjust to the other gun. I shoot all of my guns the same way with more finger that's on the dip joint and the impacts are always centered but I do have to take into account if that gun uses a center or a six hold on it's sights but lately with red dots becoming the next evolution for most, that problem too is going away like the dodo bird. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 7:50:45 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The average person whom isn't arguing worthless minutia isn't thinking to wanting a gun that would show their flaws, they're thinking about buying, a gun that gives them every edge possible to win a gunfight should it happen. It's not supposed to be a fair fight where we both have the same model of gun, the same caliber, and walk ten paces in the opposite directions of each other then turn and fire. I do get what you are saying but a Model 10 revolver DA will indeed show my flaws but an easier to shoot semiauto will save my life more efficiently than that Model 10. So choosing between the two, I am going to carry that semiauto each and every time over the Model 10 because if you're not cheating, then you really aren't trying to win that gunfight. But am puzzled by that statement about the trigger finger needing to adjust to the other gun. I shoot all of my guns the same way with more finger that's on the dip joint and the impacts are always centered but I do have to take into account if that gun uses a center or a six hold on it's sights but lately with red dots becoming the next evolution for most, that problem too is going away like the dodo bird. Well, the Hipower has a long, light reset. So shooting it fast (and it will indeed shoot fast) means squeezing hard with your off hand to nullify sympathetic grip tendencies and slapping that trigger like it owes you money. My Glocks are a heavier (stock) trigger with a shorter reset. They're lighter generally and more top heavy as a result. So, switching between the platforms takes some time for me to get used to. Switching from Hi-Power to Glock is easy. The other way around, not so much. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 9:04:02 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brother I converted two haters at Keystone this week. They were like okay screw you whiskers thanks a lot Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't know why, but now I want one. Thanks a lot, fellas. Brother I converted two haters at Keystone this week. They were like okay screw you whiskers thanks a lot The P looks pretty sweet. |
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Posted: 6/19/2023 9:08:45 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Appeals to muh authorities. That's stupid to rebuttal with. Makes you look uneducated because you cannot form a coherent argument to debate with and that's just sad. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The world's most elite and selective military units shoot more than you, have seen combat more than you, and know more than you. They just use Glocks. Appeals to muh authorities. That's stupid to rebuttal with. Makes you look uneducated because you cannot form a coherent argument to debate with and that's just sad. Why do you have to start arguments in every thread? |
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