Winchester's new 350 Legend cartridge 35-223 AR compatible - Page 10

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Winchester's new 350 Legend cartridge 35-223 AR compatible (Page 10 of 11)

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:13:04 PM EST

[#1]

Quote History

Quoted:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Do not use .223 cases in .350 Legend chambers!

The .350 has a larger diameter case just ahead of the extractor groove making it a rebated rim cartridge. Case head separation is a possibility using .223 brass.

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This could doom it. Especially for hand loaders. That, and no shoulder to head space on seems to be a potential problem in a semi. Cool sounding performance, but it would seem to be maybe, kind of, AR compatible. Pretty cool in a short bolt rifle though.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:15:06 PM EST

[#2]

Quote History

Quoted:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Do not use .223 cases in .350 Legend chambers!

The .350 has a larger diameter case just ahead of the extractor groove making it a rebated rim cartridge. Case head separation is a possibility using .223 brass.

View Quote

Oh, that's awesome.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:28:39 PM EST

[#3]

Have we heard any pricing yet?

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:30:16 PM EST

[#4]

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Quoted:
Get a Giraud. Spendy, but I fucking love trimming now. My wife got me one for Christmas.

I wish I would have bit the bullet so to speak and gotten one years ago. I really do.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

The less time I spend trimming brass the more time I spend making spent brass.

It's also annoying as hell.

Get a Giraud. Spendy, but I fucking love trimming now. My wife got me one for Christmas.

I wish I would have bit the bullet so to speak and gotten one years ago. I really do.

The Giraud "headspaces" on the shoulder though. This cartridge doesn't have one.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:31:56 PM EST

[#5]

Proprietary brass is a bad idea.

This is just different enough to cause problems.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:32:43 PM EST

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
This could doom it. Especially for hand loaders. That, and no shoulder to head space on seems to be a potential problem in a semi. Cool sounding performance, but it would seem to be maybe, kind of, AR compatible. Pretty cool in a short bolt rifle though.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Do not use .223 cases in .350 Legend chambers!

The .350 has a larger diameter case just ahead of the extractor groove making it a rebated rim cartridge. Case head separation is a possibility using .223 brass.

This could doom it. Especially for hand loaders. That, and no shoulder to head space on seems to be a potential problem in a semi. Cool sounding performance, but it would seem to be maybe, kind of, AR compatible. Pretty cool in a short bolt rifle though.

Ok so hand loaders can’t fire form and have to buy brass. This is no different than other cartridges.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:34:23 PM EST

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:

Winchester got it right in appealing to straight wall state hunters right out of the gate. This will be *the* deer cartridge for kids (and adults tired of big bore recoil) in those states.

As for the rest of the gun owning crowd, the .357 tag put on any new cartridge draws attention.

Add bolt and semi auto long gun chamberings into the mix? Boom.

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I'm in it for the bolt gun and deer hunting.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:34:34 PM EST

[#8]

So Winchester just redid the old .351 Self-Loading cartridge?
Even right down to the proprietary cartridge case.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:35:02 PM EST

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted: This could doom it. Especially for hand loaders. That, and no shoulder to head space on seems to be a potential problem in a semi. Cool sounding performance, but it would seem to be maybe, kind of, AR compatible. Pretty cool in a short bolt rifle though.

View Quote

Given CMMG claims they worked w/ Winchester on the development of the cartridge, and they have already announced an AR and a magazine, it would seem solidly AR compatible. A rebated rim has not proven an issue in the .458 SOCOM and several other cartridges in semi-autos. Just makes brass more expensive, but gives more case capacity. I'm wondering how fast you could get light .380 FMJs up to.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:36:53 PM EST

[#10]

I just want a big honking .35 cal subsonic for some reason. I'll think of a good reason later.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:39:47 PM EST

[#11]

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Quoted:
Oh, that's awesome.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Do not use .223 cases in .350 Legend chambers!

The .350 has a larger diameter case just ahead of the extractor groove making it a rebated rim cartridge. Case head separation is a possibility using .223 brass.

Oh, that's awesome.

No shit. That will kill it.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:42:47 PM EST

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:
I just want a big honking .35 cal subsonic for some reason. I'll think of a good reason later.

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This is one of the more appealing reasons, out of several. I've said I would never buy a can, but this changes things.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:43:31 PM EST

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
No shit. That will kill it.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Do not use .223 cases in .350 Legend chambers!

The .350 has a larger diameter case just ahead of the extractor groove making it a rebated rim cartridge. Case head separation is a possibility using .223 brass.

Oh, that's awesome.

No shit. That will kill it.

No it won't.

Posted: 2/2/2019 5:53:28 PM EST

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:

Ok so hand loaders can’t fire form and have to buy brass. This is no different than other cartridges.

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I just looked at the two saami diagrams, and it looks like 0.014 difference (larger) for the 350. Fireforming up the body and neck, that 14 thou would not be an issue. I am not sure I would risk expanding the base at the web that much. I have had cases separate at the top of the web (well above the base) and it is pretty uneventful, other than trying to get the top of the case out of the chamber. If the case lets go at the base, you will have zero "gasket" material left, and the gasses are likely to go into some unwanted places.

Posted: 2/2/2019 7:47:17 PM EST

[#15]

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Quoted: I just want a big honking .35 cal subsonic for some reason. I'll think of a good reason later.

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Burglars. Bears. Though you might go w/ the supers for the bears, just depends if you don't want to hurt their precious ears. Indoor burglars, I'd prefer big subs.

Posted: 2/2/2019 7:55:24 PM EST

[#16]

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Quoted:
No it won't.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Do not use .223 cases in .350 Legend chambers!

The .350 has a larger diameter case just ahead of the extractor groove making it a rebated rim cartridge. Case head separation is a possibility using .223 brass.

Oh, that's awesome.

No shit. That will kill it.

No it won't.

Yup. People who even know what fire forming is probably don't even make up 1% of the gun markets.

Posted: 2/2/2019 8:14:16 PM EST

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:

No shit. That will kill it.

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Not with FMJ starting at $9.99/box it won't.

Posted: 2/2/2019 8:20:56 PM EST

[#18]

If the factory ammo is $10/20rnd box, and it works and shoots as indicated, I don't care about the potential issues. Time will tell if they're real issues or not. (I don't buy new whiz bang stuff anyway so if I jump on this, and I want to, it will be in a year or two.)

Posted: 2/2/2019 8:32:12 PM EST

[#19]

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Quoted:

Ok so hand loaders can’t fire form and have to buy brass. This is no different than other cartridges.

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And Winchester will not be selling brass. A few pages back it was posted that they are only i terested in making factory ammo.

Posted: 2/2/2019 8:36:54 PM EST

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
And Winchester will not be selling brass. A few pages back it was posted that they are only i terested in making factory ammo.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Ok so hand loaders can’t fire form and have to buy brass. This is no different than other cartridges.

And Winchester will not be selling brass. A few pages back it was posted that they are only i terested in making factory ammo.

At first. Like every other caliber ever. Can you name any other caliber they make they don't sell brass for.

Posted: 2/2/2019 9:02:02 PM EST

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
This could doom it. Especially for hand loaders. That, and no shoulder to head space on seems to be a potential problem in a semi. Cool sounding performance, but it would seem to be maybe, kind of, AR compatible. Pretty cool in a short bolt rifle though.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Do not use .223 cases in .350 Legend chambers!

The .350 has a larger diameter case just ahead of the extractor groove making it a rebated rim cartridge. Case head separation is a possibility using .223 brass.

This could doom it. Especially for hand loaders. That, and no shoulder to head space on seems to be a potential problem in a semi. Cool sounding performance, but it would seem to be maybe, kind of, AR compatible. Pretty cool in a short bolt rifle though.

The 450 Bushmaster has the rebated rim and works fine in a semi platform . I think the case having more taper will help feeding also.

Posted: 2/2/2019 10:35:43 PM EST

[#22]

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Quoted:

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At what point is a straight wall case no longer straight wall?

If I am reading this correctly, the case is tapered by .012".

For comparison, here is .30 Carbine:

I see a .019" taper there.

On the flip side, does that taper help with headspacing?

Posted: 2/2/2019 10:48:48 PM EST

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:

At what point is a straight wall case no longer straight wall?

If I am reading this correctly, the case is tapered by .012".

For comparison, here is .30 Carbine:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k_HrKXROHfc/WLwHyAyME7I/AAAAAAAAMBQ/og_YIvbsr_8xFNFpNGPL6NsSufylF6XKgCLcB/s1600/30%2BCarbine%2BCase%2B%2526%2BChamber%2B-%2BCopy.jpg

I see a .019" taper there.

On the flip side, does that taper help with headspacing?

View Quote

Most "straight wall" cartridge states allow some straight taper rounds as well. IA allowing .45-70 and .444 Marlin being an example. By saying straight wall they're just keeping all bottleneck calibers out, like the scary, massively powerful .30-30.

Posted: 2/2/2019 11:02:52 PM EST

[#24]

The taper case "straight wall" feed better in bolt guns like the 450 BM . I built a 45 Raptor bolt gun and the loaded rounds were tough to get feeding right . This might be why Winchester went the way they did with brass ?

Posted: 2/2/2019 11:05:17 PM EST

[#25]

Quote History

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I have been dragging my heals on getting a big-bore AR.

The .300 kaboom issue, the .458 SOCOM bolt face relieved until it is almost gone.
The minuses kept adding up to the pluses.

This round though, it is all pluses.
I can't wait to see how it does suppressed, now I am looking at .22lr, .223, .45acp, and .35 caliber cans.

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It should supress just like my 357AR does. It sounds great.

https://youtu.be/_mZNHLV_4B0

https://youtu.be/_mZNHLV_4B0

Posted: 2/2/2019 11:09:51 PM EST

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

The .357 Max is listed as having a maximum pressure of 40,000psi. The .350 Legend is 55,000.

Never assume.

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Correct. Those of us running the 357AR barrels from MDWS are running them at the 5.56 Nato pressures also. Currently my load that I am using for deer hunting is a 200GN Hornady FTX with a velocity of 1900fps. My plinking load is a 158 GN Hornady XTP HP with a velocity of 2191fps. I would expect to see the 350L performing similar.

Posted: 2/2/2019 11:17:08 PM EST

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

At what point is a straight wall case no longer straight wall?

If I am reading this correctly, the case is tapered by .012".

For comparison, here is .30 Carbine:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k_HrKXROHfc/WLwHyAyME7I/AAAAAAAAMBQ/og_YIvbsr_8xFNFpNGPL6NsSufylF6XKgCLcB/s1600/30%2BCarbine%2BCase%2B%2526%2BChamber%2B-%2BCopy.jpg

I see a .019" taper there.

On the flip side, does that taper help with headspacing?

View Quote

The taper has nothing to do with the headspacing. It headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge, similar to a 9mm Luger, or a 45ACP. The taper helps with feeding and extraction.

Posted: 2/2/2019 11:33:51 PM EST

[#28]

Well Lookie here...

Posted: 2/2/2019 11:40:39 PM EST

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
At first. Like every other caliber ever. Can you name any other caliber they make they don't sell brass for.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Ok so hand loaders can’t fire form and have to buy brass. This is no different than other cartridges.

And Winchester will not be selling brass. A few pages back it was posted that they are only i terested in making factory ammo.

At first. Like every other caliber ever. Can you name any other caliber they make they don't sell brass for.

If I remember correctly once the 'inventor' of a cartridge goes to SAAMI for approval they relinquish proprietary control.
Anyone can manufacture ammo & guns for the new cartridge. Expect the usual suppliers to start making guns, ammo & components once they see a potential market.

Posted: 2/3/2019 12:23:11 AM EST

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:

And Winchester will not be selling brass. A few pages back it was posted that they are only i terested in making factory ammo.

View Quote

Who cares, Starline will make all you want.

Posted: 2/3/2019 12:40:38 AM EST

[#31]

Quoted:

If I remember correctly once the 'inventor' of a cartridge goes to SAAMI for approval they relinquish proprietary control.
Anyone can manufacture ammo & guns for the new cartridge. Expect the usual suppliers to start making guns, ammo & components once they see a potential market.

View Quote

That is correct.

Quoted:

Who cares, Starline will make all you want.

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Winchester will sell brass it will just take a while.

Posted: 2/3/2019 12:43:56 AM EST

[#32]

Have we seen any prices for rifles, uppers and barrels yet?

Posted: 2/3/2019 7:21:29 AM EST

[#33]

CMMG is shooting for about a grand, MSRP?

Posted: 2/3/2019 9:18:08 AM EST

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
Oh, that's awesome.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

Do not use .223 cases in .350 Legend chambers!

The .350 has a larger diameter case just ahead of the extractor groove making it a rebated rim cartridge. Case head separation is a possibility using .223 brass.

Oh, that's awesome.

Oh well, next

Posted: 2/3/2019 9:36:36 AM EST

[#35]

Brass shows up in the market. Worse case I by a couple of boxes of factory ammo, and bamm I have brass. About the only exception to that historically is 5.7. Bullet selection is what is necessary. Great picture of an ammo box, but were do I spend my money to buy the bullets.

Posted: 2/3/2019 10:06:30 AM EST

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:

At what point is a straight wall case no longer straight wall?

If I am reading this correctly, the case is tapered by .012".

For comparison, here is .30 Carbine:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k_HrKXROHfc/WLwHyAyME7I/AAAAAAAAMBQ/og_YIvbsr_8xFNFpNGPL6NsSufylF6XKgCLcB/s1600/30%2BCarbine%2BCase%2B%2526%2BChamber%2B-%2BCopy.jpg

I see a .019" taper there.

On the flip side, does that taper help with headspacing?

View Quote

The walls of the cartridge are still straight. They just aren't parallel.

Posted: 2/3/2019 10:24:52 AM EST

[#37]

No prices on CMMG's website. Mike had told me off camera that the prices will be inline with the current series of rifles, 100, 200, and 300 Resolute Series.

Attached File

Posted: 2/3/2019 10:50:23 AM EST

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
CMMG is shooting for about a grand, MSRP?

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I can see that for msrp on a complete rifle but the street price needs to be lower and after its met the new product demand the msrp needs to come down. To me a big attraction is that it needs so few mods to a 5.56 that I expect the price to be very close to a 5.56 rifle.

Posted: 2/3/2019 10:54:08 AM EST

[#39]

Anyone with half a brain can install a barrel on an AR upper and have a 350 legend for the price of the parts.

Posted: 2/3/2019 12:55:12 PM EST

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well Lookie here...

https://wdm2.blob.core.windows.net/winchester/products/symbol/sup350/images/sup350-boxshot-front-large.png

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That does it, I'm building one later this summer!

Posted: 2/3/2019 1:25:09 PM EST

[#41]

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Quoted:
That does it, I'm building one later this summer!

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Well Lookie here...

https://wdm2.blob.core.windows.net/winchester/products/symbol/sup350/images/sup350-boxshot-front-large.png

That does it, I'm building one later this summer!

The lower I've been saving for a .300 blackout might have to wait a few more months. I need a piston upper and I'm going to have a nice "pistol"

Posted: 2/5/2019 3:18:46 PM EST

[#42]

MGM is listing 350 Legend barrels now. Available to ship in April if you have a contender or encore. $510 after I spec'd it out (16", threaded with pic rail).

Posted: 2/5/2019 3:36:13 PM EST

[#43]

I. Can't. Wait. To. Try. This.

I already have my first video title picked out lol

Posted: 2/5/2019 3:45:22 PM EST

[#44]

Well I wasn't going to be fire forming brass anyway.

I'm still in at this point.

Posted: 2/5/2019 3:58:51 PM EST

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
MGM is listing 350 Legend barrels now. Available to ship in April if you have a contender or encore. $510 after I spec'd it out (16", threaded with pic rail).

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I really wish there was a company that built similar barrel and had as many options for less money. I really want a 357 or maybe 9mm barrel for my encore but they are so spendy. It's hard to spend as much as a whole gun on the barrel.

Posted: 2/5/2019 4:02:01 PM EST

[#46]

Really hope X-Caliber picks up blanks and reamers for this

Posted: 2/5/2019 4:12:49 PM EST

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:

I really wish there was a company that built similar barrel and had as many options for less money. I really want a 357 or maybe 9mm barrel for my encore but they are so spendy. It's hard to spend as much as a whole gun on the barrel.

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Bullberry is the only other company I know of. I bought a 9mm barrel from Ed's Contenders, still need to get it threaded though. I think a 9mm or 357 for an encore is a custom only type deal.

Posted: 2/5/2019 4:45:49 PM EST

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
Bullberry is the only other company I know of. I bought a 9mm barrel from Ed's Contenders, still need to get it threaded though. I think a 9mm or 357 for an encore is a custom only type deal.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

I really wish there was a company that built similar barrel and had as many options for less money. I really want a 357 or maybe 9mm barrel for my encore but they are so spendy. It's hard to spend as much as a whole gun on the barrel.

Bullberry is the only other company I know of. I bought a 9mm barrel from Ed's Contenders, still need to get it threaded though. I think a 9mm or 357 for an encore is a custom only type deal.

I think that 357 Maximum were made for a short time and there might have been a tiny number of 357's but they got killed early on. I wish I would have found one before we lost the TC Custom shop because I don't remember them being too expensive.

Posted: 2/5/2019 5:02:09 PM EST

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:

I think that 357 Maximum were made for a short time and there might have been a tiny number of 357's but they got killed early on. I wish I would have found one before we lost the TC Custom shop because I don't remember them being too expensive.

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I've heard that their barrels were a mixed bag, but MGM and bulberry get nothing but praise from what I've seen. I want a 45acp, 45lc and this 350 legend to go with my 9mm. All I'm interested in is suppressed subs.

Posted: 2/5/2019 5:49:22 PM EST

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:
I really wish there was a company that built similar barrel and had as many options for less money. I really want a 357 or maybe 9mm barrel for my encore but they are so spendy. It's hard to spend as much as a whole gun on the barrel.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
MGM is listing 350 Legend barrels now. Available to ship in April if you have a contender or encore. $510 after I spec'd it out (16", threaded with pic rail).

I really wish there was a company that built similar barrel and had as many options for less money. I really want a 357 or maybe 9mm barrel for my encore but they are so spendy. It's hard to spend as much as a whole gun on the barrel.

Unnecessary to go with this caliber in the TC platrorm unless you really want this round. I can't imagine an extra tenth inch of case length making a big difference. .357 Max barrels can be had lightly used for $200 or less.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Winchester's new 350 Legend cartridge 35-223 AR compatible (Page 10 of 11)

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