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Posted: 9/12/2018 4:05:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Without knowing what the burn characteristics of the powder are, weighing the powder load will not tell you anything. A number of years ago, a friend mistakenly loaded 2400 instead of 4198 in a 7mm TCU, the results were impressive. Fortunately the Thompson Center Contender is a VERY strong firearm, but he did stretch the frame. Commercial manufacturers do not use the same powders that we can normally purchase from our suppliers. They purchase to a general spec and test the powder prior to establishing a load. The stickers looked like what you would find on an 8lb bottle, but the kegs were much much bigger. Colors logos, all were the same. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 4:42:00 PM EDT
[#2]
We've run around 2,400,000rds of horn frontier through our full autos so far. I'm still buying it and that number is not including this month. No problems at all
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Posted: 9/12/2018 5:23:37 PM EDT
[#3]
How is the cam pin?
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Posted: 9/12/2018 6:59:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How is the cam pin? |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 10:36:04 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I worked at Federal Cartridge they had kegs and kegs of commercially labelled powder. The stickers looked like what you would find on an 8lb bottle, but the kegs were much much bigger. Colors logos, all were the same. This whole "mystery powder" thing never made much sense to me As if they get "unknown" powder in barrels, then have to experiment with it and eventually mix it with other unknown powders until they come up with some super secret elixir for a lot of ammo, then do it all again next go round. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 10:50:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I worked at Federal Cartridge they had kegs and kegs of commercially labelled powder. The stickers looked like what you would find on an 8lb bottle, but the kegs were much much bigger. Colors logos, all were the same. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 10:53:02 PM EDT
[#7]
I am just throwing this out there as I have only read the 1st, 5th, and 6th pages.
Everyone keeps mentioning powder amounts. If this load is a ball powder at or near maxium loads and it was hot (temperature) outside there's a possibility that pressures built up to an over charge load. Alliant ball powders are known for being temperature sensitive. Another issue Ive seen and heard about is how much carbon might have been built up in the leade or freebore area of the barrel. If it had not been cleaned properly or shot a bunch that day with different loads it can cause pressure spikes too. People who shoot rifle competition long enough see some weird things at times. To be honest without a metallurgy test and load testing on that lot of powder under similar circumstances its all guessing... |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 11:55:55 PM EDT
[#8]
With the Frontier ammo being relatively new to market, the prevalence of similar issues isn’t very encouraging.
Took minimal effort to compile the links below. All mention issues with blown primers. At least one other KB alleged. Quite a few complaints of “dud” rounds as well. https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/hornady-frontier-556-nato-55-grain-centerfire-rifle-ammunition https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/frontier-cartridge-centerfire-rifle-ammo https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-frontier-556-nato-ammunition-20-rounds-68-grain-bthp-match-2690fps-090255711608.do https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Hornady-Frontier-Possibly-loaded-hotter-than-193-AND-855-/16-727225/ http://www.nevadashooters.com/threads/hornady-frontier-hot-loads-weapon-failure.141146/ I’m pretty good about giving the benefit of the doubt. Maybe even a little more leniency for those companies who’ve established a good name for themselves. When it comes to ammo, Hornady and Federal have earned their “street cred”. But if this keeps up, they may have some splanin’ to do. ETA: Another instance to add to the above list. Frontier ammo and, this time, another KB (called out by backbencher)... https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/My-AR-exploded-in-my-face-today--Can-anyone-tell-me-why-/66-731445/ |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 12:22:12 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is Exactly what I figured This whole "mystery powder" thing never made much sense to me As if they get "unknown" powder in barrels, then have to experiment with it and eventually mix it with other unknown powders until they come up with some super secret elixir for a lot of ammo, then do it all again next go round. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 12:23:21 AM EDT
[#10]
I know its not, but project eldest son comes to mind.
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Posted: 9/13/2018 12:30:05 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the Frontier ammo being relatively new to market, the prevalence of similar issues isn’t very encouraging. Took minimal effort to compile the links below. All mention issues with blown primers. At least one other KB alleged. Quite a few complaints of “dud” rounds as well. https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/hornady-frontier-556-nato-55-grain-centerfire-rifle-ammunition https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/frontier-cartridge-centerfire-rifle-ammo https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/hornady-frontier-556-nato-ammunition-20-rounds-68-grain-bthp-match-2690fps-090255711608.do https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Hornady-Frontier-Possibly-loaded-hotter-than-193-AND-855-/16-727225/ http://www.nevadashooters.com/threads/hornady-frontier-hot-loads-weapon-failure.141146/ I’m pretty good about giving the benefit of the doubt. Maybe even a little more leniency for those companies who’ve established a good name for themselves. When it comes to ammo, Hornady and Federal have earned their “street cred”. But if this keeps up, they may have some splanin’ to do. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 2:25:55 AM EDT
[#12]
if your friend still has the blown primer'd brass, is there any other visible damage? like indentations or scratches?
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Posted: 9/13/2018 3:43:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Chance number one to stop shooting the ammo... Chance number two to stop shooting the ammo... Chance number three to stop shooting the ammo . Chance number four to stop shooting the ammo . Chance number Kaboom. I have only seen one kaboom but there were signs that something was wrong and with those primers being blown out that is a huge sign the ammo is over charged. I am glad you friend is okay but send those cart and the ammo back and ask for a replacement AR. The ammo manufacturer really screwed the Pooh on those carts Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here are a few empty cases we found after the Kaboom.https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/126115/20180909_215804-666944.JPG Chance number two to stop shooting the ammo... Chance number three to stop shooting the ammo . Chance number four to stop shooting the ammo . Chance number Kaboom. I have only seen one kaboom but there were signs that something was wrong and with those primers being blown out that is a huge sign the ammo is over charged. I am glad you friend is okay but send those cart and the ammo back and ask for a replacement AR. The ammo manufacturer really screwed the Pooh on those carts |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 3:51:02 AM EDT
[#14]
Tag for safety and more info.
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Posted: 9/13/2018 9:12:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Midway has a sale on Frontier Ammo 150 rounds for $42.99
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Posted: 9/13/2018 9:15:54 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Midway has a sale on Frontier Ammo 150 rounds for $42.99 |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 9:32:00 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Midway has a sale on Frontier Ammo 150 rounds for $42.99 |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 9:53:14 AM EDT
[#18]
If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this.
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:01:56 AM EDT
[#19]
I have shot around 300 or so rounds from Hornadys 55 grain hollow point match. It comes from the same frontier line of ammo and so far it has been a great load with no over pressure signs or anything abnormal.
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:40:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Looking at the pics.
The bolt carrier let go versus the bolt. I don't think it was an overcharged round. Gas is not blown back into the gun to open the bolt because it is piston and the bolt is still in the barrel extention. My guess, is the bolt carrier broke and when the piston gave it a punch and the bolt was not pulled out of battery. This is why I asked about the cam pin. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:47:09 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 28 cents a boom |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 12:31:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking at the pics. The bolt carrier let go versus the bolt. I don't think it was an overcharged round. How do you explain: 1. The massive ejector flow in the brass on previous rounds. 2. The blown primers This event was caused by case failure. The root cause of the case failure was either bad brass, or overpressure. "Overcharged" is a misnomer. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 12:34:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When the case fails - gasses enter the carrier in excess of what it was designed for. This is exactly what happens during an overpressure event. The bolt normally does not shear, but case failure results in damage to the areas that cannot be contained, such as the extractor, and venting gas into the firing pin channel. How do you explain: 1. The massive ejector flow in the brass on previous rounds. 2. The blown primers This issues was caused by case failure. The cause of the case failure was either bad brass, or overpressure. "Overcharged" is a misnomer. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 12:49:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here are a few empty cases we found after the Kaboom.https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/126115/20180909_215804-666944.JPG |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 1:07:05 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now come on, how good are your eyes that you can see empty primer pockets flinging quickly out of the corner of vision? Do you stop after every shot and walk 20 feet to inspect your brass? Bottom line - Those are the only signs you are going to get. If you start finding brass with heavy extractor wipes and blown primers that's as much prior warning as you are going to get from the mechanical side. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 1:47:54 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 5:31:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ditto Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 5:44:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP's buddy works so hard he doesn't even have time for ARFCOM, let alone calling ammo manufacturers while on the clock. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:10:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ditto Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:19:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My friend works as a first responder and owns his own business. He has very little time to take care of personal stuff. He said he would call them Friday. I will let you know any info, as soon as he let's me know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If *MY* gun had kaboomed, I'd have been on the phone Monday morning... so I'm a bit confused by the OP's friend's seeming lack of action on this. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:32:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Glad to hear your friend is ok
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:36:41 PM EDT
[#32]
I’m curious to know if there are a couple bullets stuck in the barrel.
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Posted: 9/14/2018 12:20:48 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My friend works as a first responder and owns his own business. He has very little time to take care of personal stuff. He said he would call them Friday. I will let you know any info, as soon as he let's me know. I agree though, if he can spare the time sooner than later I think it will go smoother for him with Hornady. Really interested to see what they say. I had a buddy who builds a lot of rifles take a look at the thread and his opinion was it’s the rifle, not the ammo. That’s my humble, non-scientific addition to the thread. 
I’m an ammo idiot, so I’ll leave it up to you experts to discuss! Glad your buddy wasn’t hurt, and thanks for sharing this. |
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Posted: 9/14/2018 8:49:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is Exactly what I figured This whole "mystery powder" thing never made much sense to me As if they get "unknown" powder in barrels, then have to experiment with it and eventually mix it with other unknown powders until they come up with some super secret elixir for a lot of ammo, then do it all again next go round. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: When I worked at Federal Cartridge they had kegs and kegs of commercially labelled powder. The stickers looked like what you would find on an 8lb bottle, but the kegs were much much bigger. Colors logos, all were the same. This whole "mystery powder" thing never made much sense to me As if they get "unknown" powder in barrels, then have to experiment with it and eventually mix it with other unknown powders until they come up with some super secret elixir for a lot of ammo, then do it all again next go round. |
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Posted: 9/14/2018 9:17:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Tagged for updates
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Posted: 9/16/2018 4:27:07 AM EDT
[#36]
Bump...
FWIW, I grabbed the Lot Numbers from all of the Frontier ammo I recently purchased. Compiled into a spreadsheet... 
My intent all along was to do accuracy testing and comparison. Since it was already going to be slow fire, I’ll be taking special care to note/log any pressure signs, failures, etc. I have 3 boxes of each of the 6 loadings. My plan with each box is to shoot 4 three shot groups, and 1 five shot group. I’ll spread the testing over multiple range trips; running through only one box of each loading per visit. All the data will be compiled and likely posted in a new thread. Given the (perceived) prevalence of issues with their new Frontier line, I’m measuring OAL and cartridge weight for all rounds in the first 6 boxes I’ll be working through. While I’m at it, I’m inspecting the cases as well. So far, visibly, nothing has looked out of the ordinary. And the OAL and cartridge weight numbers are fairly consistent; with OAL being well below the .223/5.56 maximum. The 55 gr. data is as follows (20 rounds averaged for each load): .223 HP Match Cartridge Weight: 176 gr. (high/low spread of 3 grains) OAL: 2.175” (high/low spread of .016”) 5.56 HP Match Cartridge Weight: 177 gr. (high/low spread of 2 grains) OAL: 2.191” (high/low spread of .015”) |
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Posted: 9/16/2018 5:36:04 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You got that backwards. It's still retarded but you did it wrong. |
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Posted: 9/16/2018 8:26:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what I paid for mine about a month ago from Midway. See my posts earlier in the thread. The ones I received from Midway have a different lot # format and different item # from the 150 round boxes others have bought elsewhere. Haven't shot any yet but I will this weekend out of a couple different uppers (11.5" 5.56, 16" 5.56 and 16" PredatAR). I'll be checking all of my brass and if all is well, I'll be buying more at that price.  Attached File Attached File18" LaRue Stealth, some minor ejector/extractor marks but that's pretty normal for any 5.56 loads from this barrel  Attached File16" factory built Stag (2009 vintage) CL barrel, no pressure signs  Attached File11.5" Stone Mountain Arsenal melonite barrel, 5.56 chamber, no pressure signs  Attached FileI feel safe shooting the 900 rounds of this that I have. |
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Posted: 9/16/2018 8:41:29 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am just throwing this out there as I have only read the 1st, 5th, and 6th pages. Everyone keeps mentioning powder amounts. If this load is a ball powder at or near maxium loads and it was hot (temperature) outside there's a possibility that pressures built up to an over charge load. Alliant ball powders are known for being temperature sensitive. Another issue Ive seen and heard about is how much carbon might have been built up in the leade or freebore area of the barrel. If it had not been cleaned properly or shot a bunch that day with different loads it can cause pressure spikes too. People who shoot rifle competition long enough see some weird things at times. To be honest without a metallurgy test and load testing on that lot of powder under similar circumstances its all guessing...  Attached FileBefore:  Attached FileAfter:  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/16/2018 9:27:48 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here are some pictures of what I am describing. The before cleaning can raise pressure to over pressure levels. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRing-673823.JPG Before: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRingCleean-673835.JPG After: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/Scan10066-673826.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am just throwing this out there as I have only read the 1st, 5th, and 6th pages. Everyone keeps mentioning powder amounts. If this load is a ball powder at or near maxium loads and it was hot (temperature) outside there's a possibility that pressures built up to an over charge load. Alliant ball powders are known for being temperature sensitive. Another issue Ive seen and heard about is how much carbon might have been built up in the leade or freebore area of the barrel. If it had not been cleaned properly or shot a bunch that day with different loads it can cause pressure spikes too. People who shoot rifle competition long enough see some weird things at times. To be honest without a metallurgy test and load testing on that lot of powder under similar circumstances its all guessing... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRing-673823.JPG Before: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRingCleean-673835.JPG After: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/Scan10066-673826.JPG If ammo becomes dangerous because of some carbon buildup from normal shooting, then the ammo is still at fault. I don't care what other external factors play in. |
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Posted: 9/16/2018 11:49:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here are some pictures of what I am describing. The before cleaning can raise pressure to over pressure levels. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRing-673823.JPG Before: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRingCleean-673835.JPG After: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/Scan10066-673826.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am just throwing this out there as I have only read the 1st, 5th, and 6th pages. Everyone keeps mentioning powder amounts. If this load is a ball powder at or near maxium loads and it was hot (temperature) outside there's a possibility that pressures built up to an over charge load. Alliant ball powders are known for being temperature sensitive. Another issue Ive seen and heard about is how much carbon might have been built up in the leade or freebore area of the barrel. If it had not been cleaned properly or shot a bunch that day with different loads it can cause pressure spikes too. People who shoot rifle competition long enough see some weird things at times. To be honest without a metallurgy test and load testing on that lot of powder under similar circumstances its all guessing... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRing-673823.JPG Before: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/CarbonRingCleean-673835.JPG After: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/15008/Scan10066-673826.JPG If that were a real issue, we'd hear of it causing issues all the time. There are tons of people who never touch the barrels of their AR's, and dont have over pressure issues. |
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Posted: 9/17/2018 12:08:34 AM EDT
[#42]
Just in case these threads aren't cross-linked already:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/My-AR-exploded-in-my-face-today--Can-anyone-tell-me-why-/66-731445/ |
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Posted: 9/17/2018 2:24:26 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just in case these threads aren't cross-linked already: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/My-AR-exploded-in-my-face-today--Can-anyone-tell-me-why-/66-731445/ |
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Posted: 9/17/2018 2:51:01 PM EDT
[#44]
My friend just messaged me and Hornady asked him to send his upper and ammo in.
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Posted: 9/17/2018 3:11:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My friend just messaged me and Hornady asked him to send his upper and ammo in. |
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Posted: 9/19/2018 12:00:08 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good deal. Keep us updated. |
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Posted: 9/20/2018 12:19:06 AM EDT
[#47]
i will buy ammo, email me!
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Posted: 9/20/2018 8:35:04 AM EDT
[#48]
damn ammo
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Posted: 9/26/2018 8:10:09 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My friend just messaged me and Hornady asked him to send his upper and ammo in. |
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Posted: 10/7/2018 11:06:20 AM EDT
[#50]
My friend is still waiting to here from Hornady. They have his upper.
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