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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:35:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A God that is endless. A planet in space and time that is endless. Doesn't really matter how old you think it is, and in the end has no bearing on your salvation. But party on |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:38:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is your faith so weak that it rests on such a narrow interpretation of the word and a total rejection of what Gid has revealed to man about history. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:39:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. "Yom" with an ordinal number with the words "evening and morning" means a literal 24 hour day. That's the way Christians have understood it for centuries upon centuries. 2. That is speculative at best, untrue at worst. You don't know what they really understood about these abstract concepts. But when the 4th commandment was given at Sinai, it says that God created in 6 days and rested the 7th. Do you really believe they would have been asking themselves, was it really 6 days or maybe it was really just long periods of time or whatever? As for secular science learning things about origins, well, I don't think they have learned all that much. 3. Red herring, what some Christians might or might not say isn't really relevant to the article...did you read it? I'm glad you left Catholicism, but whether the elements are literally the body and blood of Christ, doesn't have mush to do with whether Genesis is literal history. What is an hour to the one who made time? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:41:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is a day to a being that created the sun and the moon and the earth? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:42:53 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whether my faith is strong or weak is irrelevant to the discussion, The issue is, what is true. Arguing about me really isn't the point is it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Whether my faith is strong or weak is irrelevant to the discussion, The issue is, what is true. Arguing about me really isn't the point is it. Quoted: Quoted: I disagree, people in the "church" are trying pretty hard to undermine the idea that Genesis is history. The history of Adam and Eve and the fall, are the foundation on which the way of salvation is built. Death entered through Adam, but OE creationists have a real problem inserting billions of years into the bible narrative. If Genesis isn't literally true, the gospel falls. Is your faith so weak that it rests on such a narrow interpretation of the word and a total rejection of what God has revealed to man about history. Your saying the gospel falls if one narrow interpretation if genesis isn't literally true. I say that makes you a man of weak faith. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:43:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a big universe, God may well have set the pieces in motion all throughout it and is cranking out new life forms left and right constantly. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:45:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, what does that have to do with the topic. THE issue is what does the scripture say, is a day revealed to Adam a day or billions of years. How did Jesus view Genesis, as history or a myth, or poetic literature? It can be history and our understanding of it can be woefully inadequate. A day has no meaning in a universe with no earth or sun |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:45:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Found the root of the problem. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:47:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is an hour to the one who made time? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:48:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think so, that is speculative at best. No doubt, God has some more stuff to do, we just don't know about that stuff. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's a big universe, God may well have set the pieces in motion all throughout it and is cranking out new life forms left and right constantly. Have you considered your interpretation of the bible is speculative at best? God can do whatever he wants, why would he stop with life on one dinky little planet out of trillions upon trillions of stars with innumerable planets spinning around them? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:48:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And, somehow that means billions of years or something, something? It means we can not know. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:52:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your saying the gospel falls if one narrow interpretation if genesis isn't literally true. I say that makes you a man of weak faith. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:53:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It can be history and our understanding of it can be woefully inadequate. A day has no meaning in a universe with no earth or sun |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:53:42 PM EDT
[#14]
I'm an old universe creationist--very old.
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:56:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sophistry? No, I was just trying to give him an honest answer. Some Christians I have known, do and have believed in a flat earth. I think they are wrong, but they are still brethren to me. I guess, Harry and I are the trolls these days. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ah ha! Your dialog here is increasingly resembling that of a modified flatearf/bigfeet stealth-troll. Smug rhetoric and sophistry galor! Enjoy your narcissistic endeavor.  I think Harry actually is somewhat sincere in his beliefs mostly (if you are indeed not one in the same). Your attempt to equate yourself with him to establish some kind of credibility is suspect. Your persona however? nah...The form and syntax of your argument is garden variety trolling that has become pervasive on forums across the internetz. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:56:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you considered your interpretation of the bible is speculative at best? God can do whatever he wants, why would he stop with life on one dinky little planet out of trillions upon trillions of stars with innumerable planets spinning around them? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:58:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It means we can not know. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:58:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Metal illness", that just sounds so...secular. Anyway, did you read the article. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: YEC is mental illness, you can't ignore all the evidence that the world has been around for more than a few thousand years because your flawed interpretation of the Bible says otherwise. I get faith, and I respect faith, but YEC believers have been convinced by false preachers to accept as faith something as ridiculous as a flat earth. No I did not. Science tells me you are wrong, scripture also tells me your interpretation is wrong. Common sense and observing the world we live in also tells me you are wrong. I pray that you escape whatever cult you live in that makes you believe such nonsense. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:59:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think Harry actually is somewhat sincere in his beliefs mostly (if you are indeed not one in the same). Your persona however? nah... Your attempt to equate yourself with him to establish some kind of credibility is suspect. The form and syntax of your argument is garden variety trolling that has become pervasive on forums across the internetz. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 10:59:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's actually the opposition, it's the foundation of a very much hopeful life. Which of the many versions is the infallible one? Insisting on infallibility of scripture (and not merely of message, i.e. just that essential to salvation) is absolutely ludicrous. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:02:16 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: … There are other ways, but I'm not that good at explaining them, I understand what more learned men are saying, I just can't explain it well. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: AThe young earth creationism article said young earth creationism is true. I don't need to read the article. That article made you a young earth creationist? Again how can you tell what's literal and what isn't? Well you sure didn’t take iggy1337 seriously because his father was a more learned man in geology. I’m a Christian and a scientist (physicist) and know several others. And the same science that leads to engineering feats (what you call “operationalized science”) is the same science that negates the YE. Unless it was made to look old when it was created. In which case, God wants us to believe it’s that old. And…… it doesn’t matter because it’s not a matter of salvation (as someone pointed out) and it doesn’t have anything to do with our values and morality. A lot of crackpot ideas are enabled by word games/semantics to make any case. Almost like a legal loophole. At the end of the day, things are what they are, regardless of amazing mental gymnastics. A physicist would never talk about certain “theories” the way crackpots do. They can dismiss it on a whim, cuz it’s a theeeeory, and move on with their bizarro case. Relatively is still a theory, but it accurately describes a lot and allows us to do engineering feats like satellite orbits and timing. It also goes against YE stuff. Now it could be “wrong”, but it works where we’ve applied it so it’s not all wrong. So if you’re going to replace it with something it still needs to do everything relatively did, correctly, and then some. Social science theories on the other hand, feel free to dismiss those :-) |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:03:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Logically the Gospel falls if Adam didn't literally exist and didn't literally fall. The truth of a young earth or a multi billion year old earth plays heavily into that narrative. The truth matters. God didn't reveal His plan to us so we could just brush it off, and say well, it doesn't really matter if Genesis is myth or not, let's just believe the secularist on origins, they're totally squared away. Adam existing and falling is not dependant on the timeline within which he did or for that matter if hominids existed before him. The bible also seems to reference other people beyond adam and his direct descendants. Like who was Cain or Seth's wives? Why did God mark Cain so other wouldn't kill him if it was just adam eve cain, able(dead)... Maybe these were the first with souls and consciousness created to be perfect in Gods image but fell short... |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:05:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God's way definitely can confound the wise of this world. God used the term "yom" and evening and morning. Supposedly moses wrote Genesis and used the word yom. How does a timeless all powerful being explain the creation of the universe in a way man can explain it to other men? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:07:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, I'm don't count myself that "we" of yours. I think the scriptures are pretty clear on that. They aren't though. Your understanding of them leads you to believe you have some definitive answer when it is not given. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:10:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, you win, you've found me out, I'm a troll, I'm insincere. OK Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think Harry actually is somewhat sincere in his beliefs mostly (if you are indeed not one in the same). Your persona however? nah... Your attempt to equate yourself with him to establish some kind of credibility is suspect. The form and syntax of your argument is garden variety trolling that has become pervasive on forums across the internetz. Your pseudo-sarcastic responce is telling, Thanks for being sort of honest. 
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:18:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am ignorant of where in the bible a straightforward ~complete chronology of the world can be found. Is there a simple case to be made from scripture? (asked in earnest) There is: 
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:19:50 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no problem with operational science, the kind that makes stuff, that's different from historical "science" that generally tries to determine origins, that I have a problem with. 
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:23:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dad was a trained geologist. Thinking the earth is about 6000-1000 years old is just pretty loopy to be honest and not a indication of 'true faith'. Geologists believe that the rate things happen now, such as continental drift, has remained unchanged forever. It is the basis of all of their assumptions about the age if things. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:23:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well you sure didn't take iggy1337 seriously because his father was a more learned man in geology. I'm a Christian and a scientist (physicist) and know several others. And the same science that leads to engineering feats (what you call "operationalized science") is the same science that negates the YE. Unless it was made to look old when it was created. In which case, God wants us to believe it's that old. And it doesn't matter because it's not a matter of salvation (as someone pointed out) and it doesn't have anything to do with our values and morality. A lot of crackpot ideas are enabled by word games/semantics to make any case. Almost like a legal loophole. At the end of the day, things are what they are, regardless of amazing mental gymnastics. A physicist would never talk about certain "theories" the way crackpots do. They can dismiss it on a whim, cuz it's a theeeeory, and move on with their bizarro case. Relatively is still a theory, but it accurately describes a lot and allows us to do engineering feats like satellite orbits and timing. It also goes against YE stuff. Now it could be "wrong", but it works where we've applied it so it's not all wrong. So if you're going to replace it with something it still needs to do everything relatively did, correctly, and then some. Social science theories on the other hand, feel free to dismiss those :-) |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:24:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is an hour to the one who made time? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 1. "Yom" with an ordinal number with the words "evening and morning" means a literal 24 hour day. That's the way Christians have understood it for centuries upon centuries. 2. That is speculative at best, untrue at worst. You don't know what they really understood about these abstract concepts. But when the 4th commandment was given at Sinai, it says that God created in 6 days and rested the 7th. Do you really believe they would have been asking themselves, was it really 6 days or maybe it was really just long periods of time or whatever? As for secular science learning things about origins, well, I don't think they have learned all that much. 3. Red herring, what some Christians might or might not say isn't really relevant to the article...did you read it? I'm glad you left Catholicism, but whether the elements are literally the body and blood of Christ, doesn't have mush to do with whether Genesis is literal history. What is an hour to the one who made time? Significant and substancial to His plan. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:25:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Adam existing and falling is not dependant on the timeline within which he did or for that matter if hominids existed before him. The bible also seems to reference other people beyond adam and his direct descendants. Like who was Cain or Seth's wives? Why did God mark Cain so other wouldn't kill him if it was just adam eve cain, able(dead)... Maybe these were the first with souls and consciousness created to be perfect in Gods image but fell short... |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:26:21 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Supposedly moses wrote Genesis and used the word yom. How does a timeless all powerful being explain the creation of the universe in a way man can explain it to other men? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:30:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your pseudo-sarcastic responce is telling, Thanks for being sort of honest. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:39:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Jesus Christ OP, you and that Harry guy should get married or something.
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:39:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People that believe in the young earth fail to know how long Adam and eve were in the garden before the fall. Nobody knows how long they were there before the fall, could have been 69 billion years. From memory, Jewish rabbis hold that Eve had only been around for like 9 hours before she ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:42:51 PM EDT
[#36]
If the word yom is used to describe day meaning 24 hours in ancient hebrew. Then why also in genesis does it seem to offer an alternate definition of day? And the morning and evening were the first day. What hebrew words were uses there for morning and evening?
We had darkness night and light day but no earth spinning and no sun to light it and delineate. Why does the chronological order differ from gen 1 to gen 2? It's almost like two separate creation stories. What original text and translations were even used in your chinese printed king james version bible? Was this pre or post translation of the dead sea scrolls? Did you even actually read it or are you relying on creation.com and your kindergarten coloring books? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:44:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More speculation, hominids before Adam and Eve? Where in the scriptures do you see this, or did you get that idea from some other source? Who did cain and seth marry? |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:53:28 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the word yom is used to describe day meaning 24 hours in ancient hebrew. Then why also in genesis does it seem to offer an alternate definition of day? And the morning and evening were the first day. What hebrew words were uses there for morning and evening? We had darkness night and light day but no earth spinning and no sun to light it and delineate. Why does the chronological order differ from gen 1 to gen 2? It's almost like two separate creation stories. What original text and translations were even used in your chinese printed king james version bible? Was this pre or post translation of the dead sea scrolls? Did you even actually read it or are you relying on creation.com and your kindergarten coloring books? Look up the Genesis tablet / colophon / toledoth theories. It may be possible Moses only compiled earlier oral or written histories. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:53:43 PM EDT
[#39]
Scientists measure the age of all the universe to be about 14 billion years old. And 94 billion light years across.
Reverse the expansion (shrink) of the universe at a rate of the speed of light. Do that for 14 billion years, the age of the universe, it would be found that the universe began at the tender size of 80 billion light years across. |
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Posted: 10/15/2023 11:59:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brother, I’m going to be brutally honest here. It is attitudes like yours that drive people interested in Christianity away from it. Being so vehemently against anyone and everyone that has a different perspective on something that isn’t fundamental to the teaching of Christ is purely driving a wedge where it isn’t needed. Paul mentions how to handle this in Romans 14. This is where I'm at. We're so busy beating each other up, we're losing the battle. I tend to lean to young-ish earth, but don't think the belief in a 6000 year age is critical to being saved. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:09:46 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus Christ OP, you and that Harry guy should get married or something. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:15:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From memory, Jewish rabbis hold that Eve had only been around for like 9 hours before she ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:19:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the word yom is used to describe day meaning 24 hours in ancient hebrew. Then why also in genesis does it seem to offer an alternate definition of day? And the morning and evening were the first day. What hebrew words were uses there for morning and evening? We had darkness night and light day but no earth spinning and no sun to light it and delineate. Why does the chronological order differ from gen 1 to gen 2? It's almost like two separate creation stories. What original text and translations were even used in your chinese printed king james version bible? Was this pre or post translation of the dead sea scrolls? Did you even actually read it or are you relying on creation.com and your kindergarten coloring books? And since you're just being obnoxious in your last sentence, I think we're done. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:20:47 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is where I'm at. We're so busy beating each other up, we're losing the battle. I tend to lean to young-ish earth, but don't think the belief in a 6000 year age is critical to being saved. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:21:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Scientists measure the age of all the universe to be about 14 billion years old. And 94 billion light years across. Reverse the expansion (shrink) of the universe at a rate of the speed of light. Do that for 14 billion years, the age of the universe, it would be found that the universe began at the tender size of 80 billion light years across. We can't even observe the entire universe, we don't know how big it is. The speed of light speed limit applies to things moving through local space not the actual expansion of space itself. Parts of the universe are moving away from each other much faster than the speed of light and we can actually see things which are more light years away from us than the universe is old. We are seeming to find some objects that would indicate the universe is even older. This of course is all predicated on the assumption that space time and objects even exist. Our understanding of space time entirely breaks down at plank scale or 10-33cm. All science is predicated on many assumptions. The more we science the slightly less assumptions we make but disproving any of those assumptions changes almost everything we think we know. |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:26:09 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know those Hebrew words, but it's pretty universally accepted by people who do know Hebrew, that that's what they mean. And since you're just being obnoxious in your last sentence, I think we're done. I just asked a question. Sorry but a lot of people never actually read the bible. They learn about adam and eve from crudely simplified versions intended to give children an understanding and listen to the same bible readings year in and year out with the same homilies passed down from one priest to the next and all of it is focused on the gospel not the old testament. Who did cain and seth marry? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:29:13 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's possible, I just don't think it was very long. In Genesis 1, God tells them to be fruitful and multiply, they would have had an innate understanding of what that meant, I think shortly thereafter they would have had sex and started to have children. We don't see the first children until after the fall. So. to insert 69 billion years into that is just arbitrary in my view. You are just inserting that they had children before the fall. Why doesn't the bible mention that? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:30:41 AM EDT
[#48]
Peter had something to say about false teachers. Set this thread's author aside.
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:31:15 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just asked a question. Sorry but a lot of people never actually read the bible. They learn about adam and eve from crudely simplified versions intended to give children an understanding and listen to the same bible readings year in and year out with the same homilies passed down from one priest to the next and all of it is focused on the gospel not the old testament. Who did cain and seth marry? |
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Posted: 10/16/2023 12:33:33 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are just inserting that they had children before the fall. Why doesn't the bible mention that? |
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