If you're a professing Christian and deny creationism your Biblical foundation is gone.

I agree with you

You wouldn't know.

Personally, I don't really bother trying to reconcile YEC with the scientific data because:

1. Practically, it makes no difference in my day to day life.

2. While I was taught about YEC as a concept so I was informed about it, my family's beliefs have tended towards a bit of God as a great tinkerer. He is fully capable of building a universal Rube Goldberg machine.

Pretty much all of them.

Gee, I wonder who loves to see Christians squabbling over stuff that makes zero difference to their salvation, but merely distracts them from more important things.

Yes they’re all wrong , mostly because, like you , they’re all Atheists
They’re such geniuses , they believe nothing created everything

I think it is an important conversation.
I've seen plenty of people turned away from religion by illogical conclusions promulgated by people with shallow thought and insistence that what what Mrs Tanner told them in second grade is the ultimate truth and word of God which can never be questioned or you will burn for an eternity.

Except that many of those scientists are religious. Astronomy itself is rooted in religion.

You can believe in the big bang and also that it is just a more detailed explanation of God said let there be light.

The Big Bang theory aligns perfectly with "Let there be light"

It's exactly what someone would look for the prove Genesis 1:3.

Georges Lemaître a Catholic priest is credited with first proposing the theory.

You can’t quantify what a day means in Genesis.  Therefore, the first man created by God could’ve come about billions of years after the creation of Earth.  Heck, Adam could very well have been created from a pre-existing hominid.

Or maybe the Christian Identity guys in Harrison, AR, are right:  Adam was the first “White” man.  That leaves room for the OE folks as well.

Seriously though, I’ll give you there is room to consider Intelligent Design, but young earth theories are in the same folder as the flat earth theory.  But it doesn’t matter; focus on the stuff that saves your soul.

straining gnats and swallowing camels

I'll go with "both are compromised."

There is a big problem with this view.  Incest is a repulsive sexual perversion condemned by God.  If you have to claim God sanctions such evil, there is, perhaps, an issue with your viewpoint, and alternatives should be considered.

In my view, the YEC are, in fact, approximately correct about the age of Adam and Eve (somewhere around 6000 BC).  However, Adam and Eve not the first humans on Earth.  In the story of Adam and Eve, Adam is described as a farmer, and Seth a herdsman.  Some of their descendants are described as metalworkers, living in tents and so on.  They lived in Mesopotamia (modern Iraq).

This does not fit in with the origins of the first human beings, who lived in Africa, only used stone tools, and did not have agriculture for hundreds of thousands of years.

The setting of the story of Adam and Eve does fit in pretty well with the end of the stone age / beginning of the bronze age... people were learning metalworking, and building some of the first cities of Earth.  In my view, Adam and Eve were the Patriarch and Matriarch of the Mesopotamian civilizations, rather than the only people on Earth... kind of like how Abraham is the "Father" of the Jews and Arabs, but not their only ancestor.

This is speculation on my part, but Adam and Eve may have been the first people on Earth to have a relationship with God, and the Fall is the story of the loss of this relationship.  Their descendants intermarried with the other people in the Mesopotamian plain, and were the progenitors of the Mesopotamian civilizations.  No need for incest.  In fact, the ruins of one of oldest cities on Earth is located near the possible location of the garden of Eden in Iraq.

We regularly consume animals of similar stature to a camel and if the gnats are in your house you should probably deal with them.

The way to the garden is guarded by cherubims. This almost seems to imply it is an other worldly realm. My only sort of nit pic there

There you go.  This guy gets it.

What if god is just some programmer named jesus and satan is just another guy in the next cubical running sims as well

They jokingly bicker about who has the better sim with more devoted npc's.

If we were in a sim would the person who created it be the same as a god?

There are many reason, I suppose, why the young leave, yours could be an addition to others.

if we are just a simulation who/what created base reality?

sim theory is just extra steps

Just stop with this " you trolling??" nonsense.

it should really serve as an indication to you.

One thing the YEC ignore is that ancient cultures across the world used lunar cycles to mark time. People translating the old scriptures into our language don't. So Methuselah would be in his late 70s early 80s which is still old. Instead of going "ah some definitions have changed due to human language barriers and advancements" they will shoe horn every little thing to justify that every word is exact and must be taken literally instead of realizing there are absolutely translation errors but if you believe the main message none of that nuance matters anyway.

"Yom" with the ordinate number attached has always meant a regular day. You are using words like evening and morning metaphorically without any contextual support. When the law given at Sinai, God told them to work 6 days and rest 1, mirroring the creation week, no where is it indicated that those days were long ages. And finally we get to the real problem of your view, "science" is your real authority, since you interpret the bible by it, not the other way around, interpret science by the infallible word.

That's an assertion without proof, the church did in fact for almost 2,000 years believe in a young earth and 6 days of creation.

Not a single translator of scripture, Hebrew and Greek scholars, see it that way.

It's a lie, and others haven't seen it that way. I don't even know this guy and all he's doing is making borderline false accusations.

If people don't want to participate, then don't. It's an issue in the church, and if they are unbelievers then just leave...it's simple.
If anyone is trolling, it would be guys like you, who say obnoxious things.

Your assertion that humans lived before Adam and Eve, is again, interpreting the scriptures by the science. Science is presumably your ultimate authority, not the Creator who was there and revealed infallibility what happened. According to, generally, atheistic science, humans go back 100K's to millions of years. I don't believe any of there bogus assertions.

I said sorry for the coloring book thing and vaguely tried to explain it.

To elaborate a bit further on my obnoxious statement, it was concepts like young earth creation blindly spouted by people in my youth which turned me away from faith for a long time.
Being able to look past that kind of dogma and evolve my own knowledge and understanding to something a bit more logically consistent has brought me back to faith.

I think it is a disservice to ignore logic and reason and handwave a ...simplistic explanation of scripture as the infallible word of God.

Incest didn't become a problem until later, when God outlawed it. Like I said before, ancient Hebrews were marrying their 1st cousins quite often, with the seeming approval of God.

depends...which of the million different translations are you referring to?

Which infallibility are we going with?
God created all of humankind or God created one man?

Why did God change his mind?

I've said it before but our pastor when I was going through confirmation was an elderly guy who could read multiple languages.   He said in an older version of the bible (I don't remember if he said greek or hebrew) it said period of time not day for the creation.   If you make that change where it's not 24 hour days I don't see why creation and big bang theory/evolution can't coexist.   Create the universe and let it run using a set of rules.

If you think something is your ultimate authority you will treat it as your ultimate authority and you will not subject it to any other authority. That's how UA's work.

I am pretty sure most modern day old earth creationists are such because they believe in the ultimate authority of science, which is idiotic, because experiment and observation by definition affirms the consequent (a wild fallacy) and can never get past the problem of induction. In short, it (science, observation + experiment) is always trying to divine the tea leave of particulars to tell you what the general is, which is impossible.

Science is still the functional religion of the west and america - though fauci and big pharma have given it a black eye of late.  Ironically, it has it's robes and people who hide behind the curtain speaking latin. Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor!

What version? Has it survived? This borderline, I knew a guy, who who a guy. There is a huge problem with inserting billions of years into the narrative. One of which, is that it makes reading Genesis 1 and 2, say what it doesn't really say. Days become billions of years.

this very much fits in with what I was saying earlier.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

why are we defining what a day is here if the concept of a day is known?
this is also before there was even a sun

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Here's why:



Evolution does not mean only "offspring inherets changes" ... it must and does mean when used in this context (all life evolved from) that *those changes can make that offspring change kind."

Evolution says "reproduces NOT its own kind."

God says "reproduces its own kind."

You cannot have both. It cannot work. You cannot make the two reconcile. You have to choose one or the other, or reject both.

Just one side note,  “Yom” can means 24 hour day, or specific time or age with a definite limit.

Just FYI
Not trying to be a an “actually” guy just wanted to point out the Hebrew because it is important.

Also the early church leaders debated and did not universally agree on age.  We are talking less than a few generations.

Once again I do not judge a Christian on young earth vs old.  All these debates about age of earth and eschatology really take away from valuable discussion on matters of eternal life.

Thank you, you are right..."science" has now just become the new religion of "Scientism". Atheistic scientists are just the latest high priests.

Good point on the problem of induction.  Atheists lack a logical world view but will never admit it:

How can you make universal claims about the future based on past experiences, given that the future might not necessarily resemble the past?  The only way is using circular logic of "that's the way it's always been".  Christians possess a foundational worldview that the future will be like the past based on God's revelation.

Scientism is the belief that science can logically make anything known.

We don't like that, but it's a part of reality.

I have opinions based on observation and experiment, I read my service manuals, but I now know that you can't rationally say "I know the truth of reality" on the basis of them.

This is why the whole evolution thing keeps creeping back into the church.

God has made creation so that we cannot know what's going on with the means available under the sun, apart from him, and apart from the knowledge he gave in revelation. We so very badly want to say otherwise that we will go chasing after patenly irrational ways of thinking.

We really don't know what the earth was like back at that juncture in time for the first two who lived in, The Garden of Eden."

The Bible states that it was a place that was naturally beautiful and a perfect environment for Adam and his wife Eve or the, "Mother of all living."

As far as man understands, these matters even today, we know of no such place on earth that is that accommodating to humans as it was back then.

There was no extreme weather there or much of a temperature variance as well.

There were no dangerous animals or poisonous or venomous creatures either.

It was also a place that was disease free and there was no sickness to be found anywhere in the specially designated location for man.

However, as it was in the garden, we really have nowhere on planet earth to compare it to today.

We do have modern science which tells us a place such as that has never existed on the earth since it's beginning and modern science may be right.

Until we start dealing with a potential supernatural condition or situation that may have been interfaced with what we have today.

Or the evolution of certain plants, animals, and weather conditions didn't happen quite in the timeframe that the Bible purports that it did.

If the fall of man and the fall of earth basically coincided together, then that transformation in itself was what we might consider to be a supernatural or very unusual series of events indeed.

And if this is an accurate description of that time, then it is not out of the realm of reasoning that at least, "The Garden of Eden" was in a state of supernatural overlay in that time until God decided otherwise.

The military angels sporting deadly weapons in my estimation were placed their to compel that first humans to stay away through a new emotion that they had previously received from the fall known to us today as fear.

And then at some point the garden didn't exist anymore and was gone.

There were only two who left the garden and not several or more already living in the diminished state that we live in today.

They had sexual relations through the same bloodline in order to proliferate, just as all animals will do today if left to their own.

There were no others available as God had made no others to get the line of mankind to proliferate.

People back in those times lived to be hundreds of years old.

They were capable of having children through sexual intercourse for several hundred years producing up to several dozen a piece until they could produce them no longer.

I also believe that humans who have certain genetic deformities today may be related to this action of the first two and there inability to branch out with other humans not of there own paticular and unique bloodline caricaturists.

I also estimate that the "Garden of Eden" existed only several to about twenty thousand years ago.

But, this should not be confused with the age of planet earth that is potentially very much older that that.

Possibly millions or billions of years old as science estimates and purports that it is

God cut the gordian knot for mankind with special revelation.

are we going with that infallible word or this one
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

Depending on how you view the approach, either (maybe both):


A) God is progressively "teaching" Humankind, so the strictures of behavior get tighter as we learn to behave.  So stuff that was OK/tolerated when we were a "younger" civilization is no longer tolerated as we get "older".  Hence, we go from "don't rape each other" to "do not cheat on each other" to "here's a list of close relatives, by blood or marriage, that you cannot marry".

and/or

B) As humans prove themselves incapable of behaving properly without specific instruction, the strictures get tightened (the "This is why we can't have Nice Things!!!" theory).  
Leviticus (which, of course, only governs the Jews) mandates that no man may marry the sister of his (living) wife....because Jacob did that and caused strife between Leah and Rachel (interfering in their natural relationship as sisters) because he openly preferred Rachel (to the point that God kept trying to get him to treat Leah fairly).


Note that, under Torah, Polygamy is still OK (although the Patriarchs only ever engaged in it for specific purposes, and it doesn't appear to have been otherwise very common), so long as you're not marrying anyone on the verboten list.....it's not practiced by modern Jews due to the Ashkenazism collectively accepting a Rabbinical ban on it about a thousand years ago, and while the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews didn't pay any attention to that, the majority of them now live in societies where Polygamy is banned and culturally deprecated.

Line them up and show how they contradict.

Don't just assume it and hope others agree.

my assertion would be that you are the one making incorrect assumptions.

I did not say they contradict themselves, only that your understanding/explanation is contradictory in reading both.

The big bang and whole evolution process follow a very similar path to the creation story Genesis.  

Light dark
Land, sea, sky formed next
Plants started growing
Life started in the water
Life moved to land
Humans came into existence