User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:24:42 AM EDT
http://vimeo.com/84713706
Link to 5 infrared cameras recording the crash. 30 knot tailwind and 8000ft airport make for a very bad setup. Jet bounces about 50 feet up in the air before crashing into a fireball. One way in, one way out of that airport, this aircraft aborted landings 3 times before it crashed. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:34:17 AM EDT
[#1]
that was rough to watch..hard to imagine anyone in control after that first hit
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:36:06 AM EDT
[#2]
I assume it is mountains that make it one way in and one way out? I thought a fundamental principal of controlled flight was to land and take off into the wind.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:36:38 AM EDT
[#3]
See the body language of one of the ground workers in the last clip.
Wonder if the pilot was determined to land, or had a lot of pressure not to divert from the back. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:40:30 AM EDT
[#4]
That is was a Challenger 600, not a Learjet.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:41:47 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is a Challenger 600, not a Learjet. this. Details... who needs 'em. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:42:55 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I assume it is mountains that make it one way in and one way out? I thought a fundamental principal of controlled flight was to land and take off into the wind. In Google maps terrain view it doesn't look impossible to approach from the other direction. But IDK for sure. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:46:44 AM EDT
[#7]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:48:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this. Details... who needs 'em. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That is a Challenger 600, not a Learjet. this. Details... who needs 'em. "The Challenger 600 began as Bill Lear’s LearStar 600 intercontinental tri-jet design. The rights to the project were purchased by Canadair Ltd in 1976, and the CL-600 went through a difficult period of development as it evolved into the twin turbofan Challenger." Not too far off the mark. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:57:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Looks like it hit the ground hard.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:58:24 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
See the body language of one of the ground workers in the last clip. Wonder if the pilot was determined to land, or had a lot of pressure not to divert from the back. I'm guessing B. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 5:59:02 AM EDT
[#11]
Are there no other airports they could have diverted to?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:02:10 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I assume it is mountains that make it one way in and one way out? I thought a fundamental principal of controlled flight was to land and take off into the wind. It is possible to land both directions, but very uncommon. You land up valley, you takeoff down valley. It is not uncommon to land with ten knots or less tailwind, but more than that, and you need to be looking at different options. The pilot tried the dive for the deck maneuver, and hit nosewheel first. Should have gone around at that point. Bad decision making. Bad aviating |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:03:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are there no other airports they could have diverted to? Bunch of them. You always have a divert plan when going to ASE |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:04:01 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are there no other airports they could have diverted to? Grand Junction, Rifle, Eagle |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:07:13 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like it hit the ground hard. He lost lift with the tail wind and skipped off the runway. The second hit was the fireball. The last vid shows pretty well he was struggling for control. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:07:43 AM EDT
[#16]
Thats not a Lear
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:08:03 AM EDT
[#17]
After the bounce it looked like a jet-propelled rock the way the ass pitched up.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:16:47 AM EDT
[#18]
When the jet skips hard off the runway the pilot is clearly trying to dive to the deck but my guess is that the 30 knot tailwind lifted the back end of the aircraft and put the plane in a near nose-down attitude, and then it augered into the deck.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:20:24 AM EDT
[#19]
It appears he tried to force it down, bounced, and then made the 2nd critical mistake ......... continuing to try and force it down.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:27:47 AM EDT
[#20]
If I was rich enough to afford to fly in a jet like that, I would be more than happy to divert to another field and pay cab-fair to get where I was going.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:36:58 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I was rich enough to afford to fly in a jet like that, I would be more than happy to divert to another field and pay cab-fair to get where I was going. Some folks of privilege won't do things a commoner would do. I'll be curious as to what any cockpit recordings will reveal. Assuming of course a jet like this has black boxes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:38:55 AM EDT
[#22]
Camera 5 shows the landing portion. I can't tell what happens just before first contact but it is possible that for some reason the nose goes down enough to initiate a porpoising chain of events. There may be two bounces with the last (or a third) resulting in the larger elevation gain and stall/"nosedive" into the ground.
This is another example of my attitude that sometimes you have to accept delays. Go somewhere else and land then return to Aspen when the weather is better. Sure that is inconvenient but by not doing that, one pilot dies, the plane is destroyed and the delay happens anyway. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:53:54 AM EDT
[#23]
A good illustration of why it is inadvisable to land nose gear first. And if you do? The call is "go around, go around thrust, flaps 20 (or 8)". Because if you try to ride it out you end up like this guy.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:54:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When the jet skips hard off the runway the pilot is clearly trying to dive to the deck but my guess is that the 30 knot tailwind lifted the back end of the aircraft and put the plane in a near nose-down attitude, and then it augered into the deck. Lol. No. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 6:59:08 AM EDT
[#25]
2/3 of the pilots on board survived.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:03:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol. No. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When the jet skips hard off the runway the pilot is clearly trying to dive to the deck but my guess is that the 30 knot tailwind lifted the back end of the aircraft and put the plane in a near nose-down attitude, and then it augered into the deck. Lol. No. To expound, the aircraft appeared to experience a porpoise (most likely from trying to fly it onto the runway in the first place due to the wicked ground speed, rather than allowing the aircraft to settle to the runway on the mains.) This is when the nosewheel hits first and the aircraft bounces back into the air. It is nearly impossible to "save" a porpoised landing as the aircraft's configuration, motion, and energy just don't work out. Upon reaching the apex of the first bounce, you can pull a little, porpoising even more the next bounce, or pull a lot and make a hard landing. The only acceptable response to a porpoise is to go around. Even in light training aircraft, with sturdy gear that are designed to get beat up by students, you may only get two, maybe three bounces before you are going to do some damage. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:08:00 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To expound, the aircraft appeared to experience a porpoise (most likely from trying to fly it onto the runway in the first place due to the wicked ground speed, rather than allowing the aircraft to settle to the runway on the mains.) This is when the nosewheel hits first and the aircraft bounces back into the air. It is nearly impossible to "save" a porpoised landing as the aircraft's configuration, motion, and energy just don't work out. Upon reaching the apex of the first bounce, you can pull a little, porpoising even more the next bounce, or pull a lot and make a hard landing. The only acceptable response to a porpoise is to go around. Even in light training aircraft, with sturdy gear that are designed to get beat up by students, you may only get two, maybe three bounces before you are going to do some damage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When the jet skips hard off the runway the pilot is clearly trying to dive to the deck but my guess is that the 30 knot tailwind lifted the back end of the aircraft and put the plane in a near nose-down attitude, and then it augered into the deck. Lol. No. To expound, the aircraft appeared to experience a porpoise (most likely from trying to fly it onto the runway in the first place due to the wicked ground speed, rather than allowing the aircraft to settle to the runway on the mains.) This is when the nosewheel hits first and the aircraft bounces back into the air. It is nearly impossible to "save" a porpoised landing as the aircraft's configuration, motion, and energy just don't work out. Upon reaching the apex of the first bounce, you can pull a little, porpoising even more the next bounce, or pull a lot and make a hard landing. The only acceptable response to a porpoise is to go around. Even in light training aircraft, with sturdy gear that are designed to get beat up by students, you may only get two, maybe three bounces before you are going to do some damage. That's the best I can see what happened too. We will never know unfortunately. I have all of ten hours into my private pilots license so I know dick. But, I do not know to try to land when porpoising! I also don't know anything about heavy tailwind landings yet, so that's something I'm going to read up on. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:08:43 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only acceptable response to a porpoise is to go around. Even in light training aircraft, with sturdy gear that are designed to get beat up by students, you may only get two, maybe three bounces before you are going to do some damage. Go around is certainly the #1 solution on the initial nose first hit. However, if the pilot is skilled and has enough runway, you can add power, stabilize the flight and still land. Consider that a modified go around. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:13:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Just crashing jets Americans won't crash.
 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/05/aspen-plane-crash_n_4546029.html Three souls on board; I am amazed only one fatality and two injured. Flight originated in Mexico. All three on board were pilots and Mexican nationals. The plane was owned by the Bank of Utah. I wonder if there are rabbit holes, and if so, where they all lead. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:14:52 AM EDT
[#30]
Some more data, windshear reports of 20 kt gain on 2-3 mile final, the plane had previously aborted approach a few times prior to the crash
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:16:16 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just crashing jets Americans won't crash.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/05/aspen-plane-crash_n_4546029.html Three souls on board; I am amazed only one fatality and two injured. Flight originated in Mexico. All three on board were pilots and Mexican nationals. The plane was owned by the Bank of Utah. I wonder where all the rabbit holes lead. Oh for fuck's sake, like that has fuck all to do with fuck all. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:20:06 AM EDT
[#32]
I'm pretty sure there is no going around at Aspen. The mountains off the end of the runway go from 7800' to 13,000' pretty quickly. I know that the missed approach for the RNAV calls for an early turn out back up the valley. It's a one way in, one way out place. Put 30kts of tailwind on that... not a chance. Poor life choice. Get-there-itis combined with absolutely HAVING to stick the landing on one try... and that's what we get.
Shoulda waited until morning. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:20:21 AM EDT
[#33]
As a teenager taking my first lessons in a faded yellow J3 that was older than my parents, I vividly remember my flight instructor discussing landing conditions and that there was no shame to be had in aborting.
He looked over at me and said, "Just remember son, in the long standing battle between the Earth and flying machines, the Earth has yet to lose." |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:20:31 AM EDT
[#34]
A Canadair Challenger 601 corporate jet, registered N115WF, was destroyed in a landing accident at Aspen-Pitkin County Airport, CO (ASE). The airplane came to rest upside down on runway 15. The right hand wing had broken off and a fire erupted. There were two crewmembers and a passenger onboard. One crewmember was fatally injured; the other crewmember and passenger received serious injuries.
Flightaware data show that Challenger N115WF arrived at Tucson International Airport, AZ (TUS) about 08:47 MST following a flight from Toluca (TLC), Mexico. The airplane then departed at 10:04 MST, bound for Aspen, CO. Audio from the Aspen Tower frequency shows N115WF being cleared to land about 12:10 but the flight executed a missed approach: "Missed approach November one one five Wiskey Fox .. Thirty three knots of tailwind." Other flights had also reported low level windshear and a gain of 5-20 knots on approach. Following the missed approach procedure, N115WF was again cleared to land about 12:20: "November one one five Wiskey Foxtrot wind three three zero at one six, runway one five cleared to land. One minute average three two zero, one four, gust two five." This clearance was confirmed by N115WF: "Roger one one five Wiskey Fox." On the second landing attempt N115WF briefly touched down on the runway, then bounced into the air and descended rapidly impacting with the ground at midfield. The last automated weather report before the accident read: KASE 051853Z 31009G28KT 270V360 9SM HZ FEW035 BKN046 OVC050 M11/M20 A3007 RMK AO2 PK WND 33028/1851 SLP243 T11111200 $ 18:53 UTC (11:53 LT): Wind 310 degrees at 9 knots, gusting to 28 knots; wind variable between 270 and 360 degrees; Visibility: 9 miles in haze; few clouds at 3500 feet AGL, broken clouds at 4600 feet AGL, overcast cloud deck at 5000 feet AGL; Temperature: -11?C, Dew point -20?C; pressure 30.07 inches Hg. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:22:51 AM EDT
[#35]
COC 1. Knock it off. ~ JW777
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:23:36 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just crashing jets Americans won't crash.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/05/aspen-plane-crash_n_4546029.html Three souls on board; I am amazed only one fatality and two injured. Flight originated in Mexico. All three on board were pilots and Mexican nationals. The plane was owned by the Bank of Utah. I wonder if there are rabbit holes, and if so, where they all lead. You'd be amazed at the stupid shit "professional" American pilots have done. In this same type of aircraft, no less. Waaaay dumber shit than what this video shows. Google Northwest Airlink flight 3701 for starters. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:26:05 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
COC 1. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:26:48 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'd be amazed at the stupid shit "professional" American pilots have done. In this same type of aircraft, no less. Waaaay dumber shit than what this video shows. Google Northwest Airlink flight 3701 for starters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just crashing jets Americans won't crash.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/05/aspen-plane-crash_n_4546029.html Three souls on board; I am amazed only one fatality and two injured. Flight originated in Mexico. All three on board were pilots and Mexican nationals. The plane was owned by the Bank of Utah. I wonder if there are rabbit holes, and if so, where they all lead. You'd be amazed at the stupid shit "professional" American pilots have done. In this same type of aircraft, no less. Waaaay dumber shit than what this video shows. Google Northwest Airlink flight 3701 for starters. Or google United 173. I was on that flight. "Check the fuel level? Ain't nobody got time for that...." |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:27:27 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm pretty sure there is no going around at Aspen. The mountains off the end of the runway go from 7800' to 13,000' pretty quickly. I know that the missed approach for the RNAV calls for an early turn out back up the valley. It's a one way in, one way out place. Put 30kts of tailwind on that... not a chance. Poor life choice. Get-there-itis combined with absolutely HAVING to stick the landing on one try... and that's what we get. Shoulda waited until morning. Good God, NO! You can go around at Aspen. A twin jet will out climb any terrain at any airport, provided you don't start 2/3 down the runway. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:27:51 AM EDT
[#40]
They shouldn't make jet fuel so flammable.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:33:58 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DERP Yeah, because you know the regulations allow you to operate a US registered aircraft in the united states with a foreign pilot certificate... yeah you totally knew that
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:35:07 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
reports state they were three mexican nationals, coming to colorado to pick up family. prolly should stick to river crossings and underground tunnels. DU loves to come here and see this kind of shit. Grow up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:37:09 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good God, NO! You can go around at Aspen. A twin jet will out climb any terrain at any airport, provided you don't start 2/3 down the runway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm pretty sure there is no going around at Aspen. The mountains off the end of the runway go from 7800' to 13,000' pretty quickly. I know that the missed approach for the RNAV calls for an early turn out back up the valley. It's a one way in, one way out place. Put 30kts of tailwind on that... not a chance. Poor life choice. Get-there-itis combined with absolutely HAVING to stick the landing on one try... and that's what we get. Shoulda waited until morning. Good God, NO! You can go around at Aspen. A twin jet will out climb any terrain at any airport, provided you don't start 2/3 down the runway. He was a good ways down the 8000' runway. I'd have rather tried to go around myself, but I only fly slow planes. Even if there is only about 2 miles between the runway and 13,000' peaks. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:37:32 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They shouldn't make jet fuel so flammable. Amen brother. The Government tried to fix that. They failed.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:38:31 AM EDT
[#45]
Given that small aircraft crash the most and are most sensitive to environmental conditions, if I own one I'm not going to be looking for a pilot who is inclined to push the envelope of safety. I'm going to be looking to hire the pilot who seeks the lowest possible risk approach.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:38:35 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm pretty sure there is no going around at Aspen. The mountains off the end of the runway go from 7800' to 13,000' pretty quickly. I know that the missed approach for the RNAV calls for an early turn out back up the valley. It's a one way in, one way out place. Put 30kts of tailwind on that... not a chance. Poor life choice. Get-there-itis combined with absolutely HAVING to stick the landing on one try... and that's what we get. Shoulda waited until morning. It has to. FAA won't approve an instrument approach if they can't construct a viable missed approach procedure. If nothing else they'll just raise the minimum decision altitude to insure obstacle clearance on the second segment climb. But the missed approach point for this approach is 2.6 mikes from the runway threshold. So once you're over the numbers, if you can't stick the landing, you better be flyin a Saturn V. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:41:26 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has to. FAA won't approve an instrument approach if they can't construct a viable go around. If nothing else they'll just raise the minimum decision altitude to insure obstacle clearance on the second segment climb. But the missed approach point for this approach is 2.6 mikes from the runway threshold. So once you're over the numbers, if you can't stick the landing, you better be flyin a Saturn V. A missed approach is mucho mas different than a go around after the landing is botched like this. Maybe than plane could have safely aborted after the first hit. I do not know its climb abilities. From the post above, it looks like this was the third approach. One go around/missed approach is understandable. After the second, I wonder if they should have diverted. Ego or get there-itis in flying can be a killer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:42:14 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He was a good ways down the 8000' runway. I'd have rather tried to go around myself, but I only fly slow planes. Even if there is only about 2 miles between the runway and 13,000' peaks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm pretty sure there is no going around at Aspen. The mountains off the end of the runway go from 7800' to 13,000' pretty quickly. I know that the missed approach for the RNAV calls for an early turn out back up the valley. It's a one way in, one way out place. Put 30kts of tailwind on that... not a chance. Poor life choice. Get-there-itis combined with absolutely HAVING to stick the landing on one try... and that's what we get. Shoulda waited until morning. Good God, NO! You can go around at Aspen. A twin jet will out climb any terrain at any airport, provided you don't start 2/3 down the runway. He was a good ways down the 8000' runway. I'd have rather tried to go around myself, but I only fly slow planes. Even if there is only about 2 miles between the runway and 13,000' peaks. I've been into Aspen dozens of times. He could have gone around at the point of the first bounce, it's a no brainer. Pilots who don't have good instinct or experience will react to a bounce like that by pushing the nose down. Exactly the wrong move and timing, and that is the result. Jet are nothing like small recips when it comes to performance. |
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:42:47 AM EDT
[#49]
How many lost in that?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 1/22/2014 7:44:36 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
COC 1. Knock it off. ~ JW777 stay classy, troll. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
