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Posted: 9/20/2018 11:44:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fargo007:
How should he have holstered his shotgun? Or is self defense in your world limited to only certain firearms? How did they ascertain that the enraged man was in fact, unarmed? You are denying them their right to defend themselves because they are holding firearms. You didn't answer my question: Since they did have firearms in their hands, what acts of violence do you believe they have to tolerate before they can use those firearms? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fargo007:
Originally Posted By TX03RUBI: No I’m not saying because they had guns they were looking for a fight. I’m saying because they arrived guns in hand they were looking for a fight. If you go looking to confront an individual that is unarmed, then keep the fucker holstered or don’t do it at all. Or is self defense in your world limited to only certain firearms? How did they ascertain that the enraged man was in fact, unarmed? You are denying them their right to defend themselves because they are holding firearms. You didn't answer my question: Since they did have firearms in their hands, what acts of violence do you believe they have to tolerate before they can use those firearms? It takes a special kind of stupid to antagonize and threaten two men who are armed. Yet, here we are. 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/20/2018 11:45:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Most of my response earlier is just Texas law, but...
We do believe in freedom. But I absolutely think brandishing a weapon should be a crime. If that's in fact what they did, then they should face those consequences. General rule in TX is that you shouldn't clear the holster until you have cause to use the gun. Doesn't mean you have to use it once it is out though. I dunno how long they had the pistol out but it seemed as if he was just walking around with it. As for the long gun... Long guns are a little tricky since they are at best, slung over a shoulder. I support the right to carry them I just think in many situations they are a poor choice. Think of it this way... Your neighbor hates something you did and walks up to your driveway with a shotgun in his hand. Wouldn't your immediate thought be how to defend yourself? The shirtless Yahoos may not have done anything illegal, but they made a series of poor choices which escalated the situation or at least, failed to de-escalate it. 1- engaged with a crazy man 2- possibly used the threat of force to enforce trash rules (guns in hand while accosting him) 3- failed to leave the scene when they could have done so safely They decided that they were willing to kill over a trash violation essentially. Should they have to deal with the crazy orange guys bullshit? No, but there were a lot of other options available besides a showdown. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. Everyone involved with this situation was a dumbass, although the biggest dumbass was the orange shirt guy. |
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Posted: 9/20/2018 11:46:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Holy shit
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Posted: 9/20/2018 11:46:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slick556:
:20 "Come closer to me, I'm gonna kill ya :33 "point it at me, motherfucker! Point it at me! (Saying this while stepping towards the old guy with his fist balled up and jerking his arm back) :37 Take your swing :45 "I will kill you dead, I promise, you're both dead. :50 "Ahh, I doubt it" :55 "You're in a alley with a fucking shotgun, you piece of shit. I'm going to kill you" :58 "I doubt it" 1:00 "First of all; If you're gonna show this video to the cops, you might want to stop saying you're gonna kill us" 1:03 "Oh no! I don't give a fuck! I will fucking Kill you! 1:05 "back off" 1:10 "pull that gun one more time, I'll put a bullet through your head" Approximately 30 seconds of old guy saying "Take your swing" and Orange dude saying "Point it at me" 1:30 "You're a dead man" 1:30 "I doubt it" 1:38 "You're a bitch and I'm gonna kill you too" 1:39 "Fuck you, cocksucker" 1:40 "Fuck you, you little faggot" And something else I couldn't make out 1:45 "jagoff" 1:48 "You're dead" 1:50 A couple "Ahh doubt it" and a "better quit threaten" 1:55 "Gimme that gun" mumbling "Gimme the baseball bat" 2:00 "if you come within 3 foot of me I'm gonna kill ya" 2:10 "You're dead" https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html Dude was armed and a baseball bat will kill a mother fucker. https://ktxs.com/news/abilene/caught-on-camera-abilene-father-son-kill-neighbor-over-trash Murder charges and the DA hasn't seen the video yet? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slick556:
:20 "Come closer to me, I'm gonna kill ya :33 "point it at me, motherfucker! Point it at me! (Saying this while stepping towards the old guy with his fist balled up and jerking his arm back) :37 Take your swing :45 "I will kill you dead, I promise, you're both dead. :50 "Ahh, I doubt it" :55 "You're in a alley with a fucking shotgun, you piece of shit. I'm going to kill you" :58 "I doubt it" 1:00 "First of all; If you're gonna show this video to the cops, you might want to stop saying you're gonna kill us" 1:03 "Oh no! I don't give a fuck! I will fucking Kill you! 1:05 "back off" 1:10 "pull that gun one more time, I'll put a bullet through your head" Approximately 30 seconds of old guy saying "Take your swing" and Orange dude saying "Point it at me" 1:30 "You're a dead man" 1:30 "I doubt it" 1:38 "You're a bitch and I'm gonna kill you too" 1:39 "Fuck you, cocksucker" 1:40 "Fuck you, you little faggot" And something else I couldn't make out 1:45 "jagoff" 1:48 "You're dead" 1:50 A couple "Ahh doubt it" and a "better quit threaten" 1:55 "Gimme that gun" mumbling "Gimme the baseball bat" 2:00 "if you come within 3 foot of me I'm gonna kill ya" 2:10 "You're dead" https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html As tempers flare, Box steps in between her husband and John Miller. Howard’s brother has handed him a baseball bat by this time, but he never swung it, his wife said.
“If you come within 3 feet of me, I’m going to kill you,” Miller tells Howard. Seconds later, two gunshots are heard. The video also shows Michael Miller firing the shotgun after the first two shots are fired. https://ktxs.com/news/abilene/caught-on-camera-abilene-father-son-kill-neighbor-over-trash KTXS reached out to Taylor County District Attorney Jim Hicks for a comment. He had not yet seen the video and asked us to send him a copy. 
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Posted: 9/20/2018 11:48:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eleventy:
If the two fat guys were replaced with clean-cut police officers, everyone here would be saying "good shoot;" even the Californians who are too embarrassed to display their state.  (I would have cheered as well, no shit.)
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Posted: 9/20/2018 11:49:56 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C-4: Thank you for the transcription! |
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Posted: 9/20/2018 11:56:37 PM EDT
[#7]
I'm just going to pop in and say not all people from Texas are like this.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/20/2018 11:58:36 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MaxxII:
Dead guy had mental health issues. I've never heard of Intermittent Explosive Disorder, but I'd bet money he's got multiple assault priors in his criminal history based solely on his response to the two armed tele-chubbies. Wife admitted he was armed with a baseball bat and threw at them after threatening them with death. I seriously doubt they are getting convicted of murder. I could easily see them getting off completely. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:02:51 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By poisontree:
I'm just going to pop in and say not all people from Texas are like this. 
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:05:23 AM EDT
[#10]
Appeared to be some of the walking cousins of the Peacocks in that alley encounter.
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:12:18 AM EDT
[#11]
Dude got shot in the head with the shot gun, daym.
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:13:36 AM EDT
[#12]
That guy was mentally off his rocker, his own posts in his facebook about him threatening to shoot his mailman.
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CT, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:27:41 AM EDT
[#13]
I'm surprised no one has asked: Screen names?
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:31:54 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By poisontree:
I'm just going to pop in and say not all people from Texas are like this. What the fuck ever! Anyone from west Texas knows that ain’t true
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:32:06 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryThank you.
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AB, CAN
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:32:58 AM EDT
[#16]
Amerika! They probably all sit down and watch football together.
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:33:36 AM EDT
[#17]
good shoot, 100% would watch video again
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NC, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:33:54 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Afterdark:
I'm surprised no one has asked: Screen names? |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:41:03 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Its clear in the video. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Originally Posted By DrJekell:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65: It was thrown after shots were fired. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:46:02 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714:
So, was he dead when he threw it? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714:
Originally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Originally Posted By DrJekell:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65: It was thrown after shots were fired. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:46:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ske714]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Furyataurus:
What a loon. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Furyataurus:
Originally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Holy shit.
Screenshots for those without FB: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/236039/1-677685.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/236039/2-677683.JPG
What a loon. With guns. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:49:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FieldGunner:
Amerika! They probably all sit down and watch football together. 
Canaderp! They probably all sit down and watch hockey together. Drinking swill Molson and bagged milk like a bunch of hosers. 
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Posted: 9/21/2018 12:58:30 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Bang bang... bat is thrown... bang bang. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Originally Posted By ske714:
Originally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Originally Posted By DrJekell:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65: It was thrown after shots were fired. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:01:25 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: Ah yes, I see it now. Either dad cant shoot, or he had a 9mm. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:12:37 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Afterdark:
I'm surprised no one has asked: Screen names? |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:12:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TDIllini:
Most of my response earlier is just Texas law, but... We do believe in freedom. But I absolutely think brandishing a weapon should be a crime. If that's in fact what they did, then they should face those consequences. General rule in TX is that you shouldn't clear the holster until you have cause to use the gun. Doesn't mean you have to use it once it is out though. I dunno how long they had the pistol out but it seemed as if he was just walking around with it. As for the long gun... Long guns are a little tricky since they are at best, slung over a shoulder. I support the right to carry them I just think in many situations they are a poor choice. Think of it this way... Your neighbor hates something you did and walks up to your driveway with a shotgun in his hand. Wouldn't your immediate thought be how to defend yourself? The shirtless Yahoos may not have done anything illegal, but they made a series of poor choices which escalated the situation or at least, failed to de-escalate it. 1- engaged with a crazy man 2- possibly used the threat of force to enforce trash rules (guns in hand while accosting him) 3- failed to leave the scene when they could have done so safely They decided that they were willing to kill over a trash violation essentially. Should they have to deal with the crazy orange guys bullshit? No, but there were a lot of other options available besides a showdown. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. Everyone involved with this situation was a dumbass, although the biggest dumbass was the orange shirt guy. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:15:51 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hosphemer:
Two to the chest with pistol, then the shotgun finished the job. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hosphemer:
Originally Posted By ske714: Ah yes, I see it now. Either dad cant shoot, or he had a 9mm. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:17:11 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TDIllini: In TX you aren't supposed to display a handgun in plain view of another person without it being secured by a holster. That is, unless you are trying to prevent another use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force. So if he strolled around the alley with the pistol out trying to impose his own will with the garbage situation, he has already committed a crime (brandishing). They're going to have to argue that his conduct was immediately necessary to prevent against imminent harm. And given the info we have so far I think he can make a case (orange t-shirt guy is probably unbalanced), but I don't think it is a strong one. All this is, is a case of two dumbasses colliding. Neither one was right. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:18:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Silver_Surfer]
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By HappyLife_NoWife:
Originally Posted By poisontree:
I'm just going to pop in and say not all people from Texas are like this.
http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1537468306077.gif  
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:18:52 AM EDT
[#30]
What did the Florida sheriff say in the press conference...? "Leave people alone, they will shoot you, a lot... grave yard dead."
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USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:23:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shockergd:
Looking at court records against the guy (Orange shirt) 16 criminal record hits Felony retaliation (Threatening someone, but dismissed) Harrasment Class A Criminal mischeif 7 thefts civil/family/probate 3 evictions 1 protection order The old guy Assault w/ deadly weapon in '77 (Reduced to minor level) 2 felony charges of theft in '79 (Dropped?) unlawful carrying of firearm in '79 (dropped) retaliation (I can't find whether these charges stuck or not). Mr Moustache chesthair No criminal or civil records i could find. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:25:17 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Doom85:
http://i.4cdn.org/k/1537487940814.png
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:29:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: perfectsilence]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MaxxII: Dead guy had mental health issues. I've never heard of Intermittent Explosive Disorder, but I'd bet money he's got multiple assault priors in his criminal history based solely on his response to the two armed tele-chubbies. Wife admitted he was armed with a baseball bat and threw at them after threatening them with death. I seriously doubt they are getting convicted of murder. I could easily see them getting off completely. Exhibit A. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:35:29 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SeanTX:
This. Father and son should ride the needle. Then revive them and make them ride it again for their fat asses going outside without shirts. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SeanTX:
Originally Posted By Poop3rscoop3r:
Fucking idiots all around. Father and son should ride the needle. Then revive them and make them ride it again for their fat asses going outside without shirts. @SeanTX |
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USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:38:57 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By akethan: Confronting someone with guns isn't standing your ground. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:41:18 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pcsutton:
The father seemed within his rights to use deadly force to defend himself...but junior may be fucked for escalating the conflict by grabbing his crotch and arguing with the aggressor. I've never heard of beating a shooting on the grounds of self defense after you contributed to escalating the situation. My money is on the father being 'no billed' and junior going away for 2nd degree murder. 99% of the time...it's a lot easier to just walk away. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pcsutton:
Originally Posted By SCW:
Ditto. They were completely non-threatening, just standing their ground. Other guy made repeated death threats. I've never heard of beating a shooting on the grounds of self defense after you contributed to escalating the situation. My money is on the father being 'no billed' and junior going away for 2nd degree murder. 99% of the time...it's a lot easier to just walk away. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:42:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bagofcrabs65: 3 feet? So you are telling me...if I take a gun outside..into an ally..and tell people to stay 3 feet away from me...and one them gets mad...and picks up a bat...I am ok the shoot the man with the bat? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:44:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phatmax:
I love how people on GD are utterly immune to adrenaline and reacting to violent stimulus. Someone rants about how they are going to attack you over and over...and the studly alpha only males on here won't tell them to put up or shut up. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phatmax:
Originally Posted By cryo_tech:
Even if he was a nut, they were coaxing him to attack. why? Fat stupid and retarded A couple guys who obviously lived a pretty sedentary life probably had very little experience with adrenal stress and their body's reaction to it. Of course they said dumb illogical shit and made mistakes, they were scared and their minds weren't working correctly because a lot of the blood that would ordinarily carry oxygen to their brain was currently collecting in their body core to protect them from going into shock after an anticipated injury. That is the physical science of it. The psychology of it is another matter, but basically they got blindsided by the guy not responding rationally when they pulled out guns and got caught in a mental loop of "WTF do I do NOW?" which was aggravated by the adrenaline making it hard for them to think. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:46:25 AM EDT
[#39]
What are you gonna do shoot me? Said the man who got shot dead. Can't tell if perfectly good shoot but darwin at his best.
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USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:46:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 40xb]
[#40]
(Edited -40xb)
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 1:51:53 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AzAgLover:
Being lawfully armed when someone threatens to kill you is. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AzAgLover:
Originally Posted By akethan:
Confronting someone with guns isn't standing your ground. If a 90 year old granny threatens to blow you away while holding onto her walker, you don't have a right whip out your Kel Tec and blow her away, claiming later, that she threatened to kill you. The requirement is that the belief that your life, or a 3rd party's life, is in imminent danger, or that grave bodily, to either, is imminent. This must be reasonable in the eyes of the jury. A jury of your peers, or the bench judge at your trial, as finders of fact and presumed to be reasonable people themselves, will decide that detail. Then there's the whole deal with brandishing (menacing) their firearms, but we can't see the beginning. While exhibiting grand stupidity, if Frick and Frack rolled up brandishing those weapons, dead guy might have the reasonable belief that his life was in imminent danger and therefore, grabbing a bat was reasonable, even against all odds and leading to his YouTube demise. Chris |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 2:06:42 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AzAgLover:
I wish the video continued on after the shooting, I enjoyed hearing the woman crying.  Failed To Load Title |
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USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 2:11:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Pike]
[#43]
At about 1:46 son looks to change grip and be thumbing the safety into the off position. He was also moving to get an angle on the guy. Note son did not have a round chambered until his dad fired...dad fires, son racks then boom.
With orange so insanely agitated and big, would they have been safe to just turn and walk away? Orange HAD threatened to take the old guy's gun and put a bullet through old guy's head at 1:08 (LiveLeak). |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 2:13:12 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Towely:
Originally Posted By AzAgLover:
I wish the video continued on after the shooting, I enjoyed hearing the woman crying.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjMQbzBhTb4 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 2:46:35 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C-4:
Thank you for the transcription! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By slick556:
:20 "Come closer to me, I'm gonna kill ya :33 "point it at me, motherfucker! Point it at me! (Saying this while stepping towards the old guy with his fist balled up and jerking his arm back) :37 Take your swing :45 "I will kill you dead, I promise, you're both dead. :50 "Ahh, I doubt it" :55 "You're in a alley with a fucking shotgun, you piece of shit. I'm going to kill you" :58 "I doubt it" 1:00 "First of all; If you're gonna show this video to the cops, you might want to stop saying you're gonna kill us" 1:03 "Oh no! I don't give a fuck! I will fucking Kill you! 1:05 "back off" 1:10 "pull that gun one more time, I'll put a bullet through your head" Approximately 30 seconds of old guy saying "Take your swing" and Orange dude saying "Point it at me" 1:30 "You're a dead man" 1:30 "I doubt it" 1:38 "You're a bitch and I'm gonna kill you too" 1:39 "Fuck you, cocksucker" 1:40 "Fuck you, you little faggot" And something else I couldn't make out 1:45 "jagoff" 1:48 "You're dead" 1:50 A couple "Ahh doubt it" and a "better quit threaten" 1:55 "Gimme that gun" mumbling "Gimme the baseball bat" 2:00 "if you come within 3 foot of me I'm gonna kill ya" 2:10 "You're dead" https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article218728710.html As tempers flare, Box steps in between her husband and John Miller. Howard’s brother has handed him a baseball bat by this time, but he never swung it, his wife said.
“If you come within 3 feet of me, I’m going to kill you,” Miller tells Howard. Seconds later, two gunshots are heard. The video also shows Michael Miller firing the shotgun after the first two shots are fired. https://ktxs.com/news/abilene/caught-on-camera-abilene-father-son-kill-neighbor-over-trash KTXS reached out to Taylor County District Attorney Jim Hicks for a comment. He had not yet seen the video and asked us to send him a copy. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 2:51:50 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Bang bang... bat is thrown... bang bang. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Originally Posted By ske714:
Originally Posted By CrawdadsRevenge:
Originally Posted By DrJekell:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65: It was thrown after shots were fired. |
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Posted: 9/21/2018 3:01:59 AM EDT
[#47]
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CT, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 3:34:03 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
thats been asked multiple times since page 3 or 4 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
Originally Posted By Afterdark:
I'm surprised no one has asked: Screen names? |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 3:36:37 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Afterdark:
Don't be expecting me to read! I'll go get my pappy and you'll be in trouble! |
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USA
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Posted: 9/21/2018 4:33:00 AM EDT
[#50]
Who’s the idiot that went inside to get a fucking baseball bat? Did he actually think that was going to help?
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