Get out without it going completely to hell before the election?

That sounds good, but it is not true.  It is not the USMC vs SOCOM.  The Army follows the same TTPs.  Hate to break it to you.  Conventional army chains of command do this to themselves, and my higher did this to me.  More then once.

1.  If a unit is in contact, and we are talking about rolling CAS, maneuver forces, indirect, then roll immediately.  If someone is in the fight then rolling fighters is a no brainer.  

2. In this depiction it is hard to understand what SF is asking for. It looks like they are asking for medevac.
If you ask for  medevac then the commander may ask for the situation before launch.

Hit google and go to line six of the medvac nine line.

WARTIME (SECURITY OF PZ)
N - NO ENEMY TROOPS
P - POSSIBLE ENEMY
E - ENEMY IN AREA, PROCEED WITH CAUTION
X - ENEMY IN AREA, ARMED ESCORT REQUIRED

When you get past N, and head toward P,E,X, then someone with rank is wargaming risk to helicopter vs risk to patient.  

By the way, while medevacs are held in reserve, armed gunships are low density high demand and are always asked for.  So if you go to armed escort then it is going to take longer.May be a little; maybe a lot.

I find it interesting that Mattis said that he wouldn't launch until CAS was overhead.

3. What is relevant is that if you ask for medevac for an IED vs asking for medevac because you are getting hit by a hundred bad guys, risk to medevac is a factor.
You can also hit an IED and that can turn into a gunfight.  Which then slows the medevac as they may now get directed to wait for escort..

The TTP is you overcommit combat power, especially CAS and indirect, if you think you will need medevac.  Otherwise you may wait to secure the site before the birds come in.

You may even (gasp) conduct shows of force so you can tell higher the enemy is not in the area, to get the birds off the ground faster.


SOF sells books. Guys that write about SOF learn if you want access you will tell their side of the story.

There is an interview out with then COL Fox that stated the bomb was short by 2km.
If they knew it was a frat, knew the site was secure, but didn't call it up on the nine line and Mattis wouldn't launch medevac without a complete nine line, nothing to see here. Move along.
If they asked for maneuver forces or CAS thats a different story.

EDIT:

I find this interesting:



I reread this stuff and what I see is inaccurate reporting, specifically they didn't know if the troops were in contact.  (They were not)
If they had called back, asked if the troops were in contact, told "no" and reported that back. Mattis would have launched.
Provide the information the man asked you for. If line six was "N", get the answer to the question you are asked and the man will give you the asset your people need.

Yeah Sylvan, you ever heard of a 9 line?

That's Marine sorcery bullshit. Because, you know, Marines like to watch Army doggies die because were so much better.

 

And again.

Remember this was in the beginning. Not at some established point years later.

To know hatred of the USMC you must first join.

It's a love/hate relationship. Mostly hate.

He would've had a blast.

Cue dirty dancing soundtrack.

Yup, it occurred in November 2001. And I was there at KAF in March 2002 when one SEAL fell from a helicopter and the helicopter which came back for him was shot out of the air. They rushed in with no idea what they were facing and it turned out pretty badly for them. I don't fault them for doing so. Hell, sitting in the Brigade TOC and listening to it on the radio made me want to go. But, I can't fault General Matt is for wanting more info before sending in the QRF.

Another point to consider about the time in which it happened, is that it was very early in the GWOT and the military was still transitioning from a very risk averse organization to one more willing to accept risk.

You must not read his posts very often. Sylvan hates the military. The Marine Corps doesn't have a monopoly on the green weenie.

Meh. That kind of passionate hate is born from early love.  Similar to ex-wives.  

I also wouldn't say it's hate.  More not giving a fuck anymore about calling (as you see them) spades as spades.

Lang Vei.

I see that the whole "not knowing what the fuck you are talking about so you don't post" thing was only a formality prior to posting a half dozen times about things you don't know about.

Medevac should theoretically be launching for the first 5 lines...none of which include the enemy situation.

There is also very clear delineation between a 9-line medevac and a request for QRF.  You can have one without the other.  Both are non-negotiable once the unit on the ground requests them. Birds get launched, even if only to get direct comms with the unit on ground and figure it out there.  

With helicopters there are various considerations, such as whether they will land on a hot LZ or not.  Some units will, some wont.   If the troops are in contact they still always they get in the air and loiter with an offset in order to be on ground as fast as possible once the cherry/ice changes, as it often does.

If the situation is as such where the birds cannot land, QRF has most likely been requested.  This is to take control of the situation so that the bird can land.  QRF can land a couple KM away and walk in, medevac cant.




And if you truly had any idea of what you were talking about, you would understand that there are always mitigations for this with every helicopter movement in combat based on situation.  Otherwise no helicopters would ever land outside the wire, ever.

just as guilty is the battle captain who wouldn't grab his nuts and send the QRF anyway.

We have an entire officer corps which claims a willingness to die in battle but often won't, for whatever reason, show any willingness to end their career.

I don't do named ops.

My response was not directed toward Sylvan.  I should have quoted the post immediately before mine, but didn't due to its length.  It was sarcasm. Surely Sylvan knows all about a 9line. Certainly more than I do.

If you could show me the other 5 things where I post things I don't know about here, that'd be great. Otherwise admit it's hyperbole.

They can call it whatever the fuck they want. It was a fucking blast.

I remember the one when I was there.  I think it was Nad Ali.

Every fucking CH-47 and UAV disappeared for 3 weeks.

They killed 7 dudes, pretty sure they weren't taliban.  captured some rusted out bolt actions, and got a bunch of marines wounded to IEDs.  

"We thought there would be more taliban"

no shit.

Meanwhile a platoon of indigs, a squad of americans, a uav and some helos stacked 30 taliban in 2 hours in a completely repeatable TTP if we hadn't had our shit yanked away for a worthless CALFEX.

Keep your fun.  Anything with a name is already operating with a compromised OPORD and expired intel.  You are just waiting to die at that point.

whatever.  15 years later and the taliban control more territory in AFghanistan than they did in 2002.

That must be what winning looks like.  Ill shut up and color like the stupid unstrategical washed up retires on wed officer I am.

Congrats.

If it was sarcasm I apologize.  I didn't catch that, nor did the next poster.

Should I tell you about the time I had to drive 4 hours to bail out an Army EOD unit that didn't have the support they needed? Or should I tell you the significant impact Helmand province played in OEF? About how Marjeh and Sangin had the highest concentrations of enemy fighters in the country? I could, but you would probably fall back on opinions made in a vacuum with minimal first hand experience of one isolated event. Meh.

I would love to hear all about it.




They still do.  Im still not sure how a force that large failed to change that in the least.

Hey, if im wrong, I apologize, even if there was absolutely zero factors pointing to his comment being sarcasm.

And, no sadly Baghdad was pretty much my LOA in Iraq. Never got to experience the magical desert sands up further past.

Who Dares, Wins





I never could stand inaction.  Being a Warrior is not a safe profession.  Not to say you always run in "Leroy Jenkins" style.....but sometimes you have to be willing to charge the gates of hell.

Indeed.
Congratulations.  

Your blood pressure is about to go down and the cross section of your coronary arteries are about to go up (both good things)