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Posted: 3/24/2022 3:57:02 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm a fan of PCCs and I've never shot basic ball that was better than 6-7 MOA at 100 and those were reasonably careful shots. A handgun? Nope... I'm a 9mm pcc/pistol-braced whore, but having done drills using a P365 XL with optic, 100 meters was easy. I'm no pistolero marksman either, but I was just doing mag changes and a few FTE/FTF drills, including some movement using a steel silhouette target at a 100 meters and it was almost 100% hits. For me, the optic makes all the difference in the world. My son was doing drills for his SWAT try-outs using his Staccato P with optic on a steel silhouette at 50 meters and there were no misses. Now, would I engage another shooter at 100 meters with just a handgun? Likely not, I would much rather use cover and/or break contact; gunfights are no longer my occupational hazard. However, if an active shooter had me pinned down would I dissuade him from getting any closer? Yep. Optics on pistols make 100 meter hits a much, much higher probability for average shooters, I'm proof. ROCK6 |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 3:59:15 AM EDT
[#2]
A pistol can be drawn much more quickly to make some hits. The skilled pistol shooter would win if drawing/retreving is part of the game within 50 yards.
Guns already in hands --- a rifle has significant advantages at any distance. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 4:08:59 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In my scenario, the engagement is in "city street distances." Maybe 50m tops. The ambush is hasty and unplanned. Both sides are surprised before shots start getting fired. For this scenario? Hell no. If I'm doing the ambushing, sure. Otherwise, I'm possibly slinging a few suppressive rounds as I do a hasty retreat to cover, but no way am I engaging someone skilled with a rifle where I just have a pistol, even if I at Jerry's level. ROCK6 |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 7:59:47 AM EDT
[#4]
Some of you guys don't seem to be understanding the jist of the question.
I'm not asking if you can beat several rifle shooters at 200m. Get the 200m out of your heads. Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. And the question isn't whether you can beat them, but whether you can survive. Even putting down a couple suppressive shots, or shoot one or two, while you run away, hide, retreat, is a part of the equation here. Anyways, I think the question has been answered, and it corresponds with everything we all generally assume. I just wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 8:14:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And the question isn't whether you can beat them, but whether you can survive. Even putting down a couple suppressive shots, or shoot one or two, while you run away, hide, retreat, is a part of the equation here. Anyways, I think the question has been answered, and it corresponds with everything we all generally assume. I just wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong. Survival is subjective until you're shot, but in general, you use the gun you brought with you. If facing a superior weapon or multiple threats with rifles, getting out of the AO ASAP or finding a very defendable position with cover as you call for backup is the right answer. The other subjective part is the skill of the threat...the vast majority of thugs are not very well trained, but some gun-enthusiast, whacko active shooter could be quite capable of ventilating you off hand at 50 to 100 meters...you will have to assume your rifle-armed threat is more than capable and take appropriate actions. Maybe 0.001% of the population are skilled and experienced enough to take on one or multiple rifle-armed threats with a handgun; I suspect only about 0.001% of that 0.001% would likely survive...excluding your Hollywood heroes. Again, for "me", I'm putting down some suppressive fire as a unass the area, seeking cover and an escape route. ROCK6 |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 9:15:22 AM EDT
[#6]
I knew a guy that was in the USBP that could consistently hit a man sized target COM with a pistol.
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Posted: 3/24/2022 9:17:47 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keanu Reeves has spent 6 months and many tens of thousands of rounds training under Taran Butler. When you have the money to afford that kind of ammo and training, it's not much of a surprise. He's definitely better than most shooters on this forum. As for Lucas, the only evidence I have for him is what I've seen on his channel. The dude seems accurate and fast. I would buy instruction from him if I could. ETA: Here's a vid of Keanu Reeve's training. https://youtu.be/SEoMh_Z7FFs You can find a handful of guys at your local USPSA club level match that would crush Botkin. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 9:19:40 AM EDT
[#8]
200m with a pistol?
You'd be better served to crawl to cover and exfil. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 9:20:08 AM EDT
[#9]
With an RMR and supported position I can hit 50% man sized steel targets at 75 yards with a Glock 19. Not sure I could do it under stress.
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Posted: 3/24/2022 9:26:56 AM EDT
[#10]
You be surprised how easy it is to hit out to a 100 yd…with a handgun… I have hit a 10 in steel target at 200…. With……Please forgive me a 9mm… |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 11:33:05 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As long as the pistol is chambered in 9mm Luger, you can be very effective. Can’t wait to see your next retarded post |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 11:35:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of you guys don't seem to be understanding the jist of the question. I'm not asking if you can beat several rifle shooters at 200m. Get the 200m out of your heads. Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. And the question isn't whether you can beat them, but whether you can survive. Even putting down a couple suppressive shots, or shoot one or two, while you run away, hide, retreat, is a part of the equation here. Anyways, I think the question has been answered, and it corresponds with everything we all generally assume. I just wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong. The only way you survive is if you take off running and they don’t chase you. If you stay and try to take them out you most likely would not make it out alive |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 11:38:22 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I knew a guy that was in the USBP that could consistently hit a man sized target COM with a pistol. No idea what distance you are talking about, but was that target moving around left and right up and down like a person not wanting to be shot would be moving? And was that target shooting back? If not then who the fuck cares what a guy you saw did on the range. This is right up there with the guy bragging he shot a rabbit. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 11:41:47 AM EDT
[#14]
I enjoyed watching a guy kneeling on the ground with a lever rifle fighting multiple pistol-armed baddies bouncing on horseback in 1883.
If caught in a similar predicament, I've made a note to get down off the damn horse and find something resembling cover before they close. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 12:11:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Going up against multiple attackers that are armed with rifles by yourself is a difficult task, no matter what you're armed with.
Multiple bad guys with rifles against even Jerry Miculek, he dies 99% of the time. The other 1% he's able to run away. Not saying he doesn't get 1-2 of the attackers, but this isn't the movies. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 12:17:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of you guys don't seem to be understanding the jist of the question. I'm not asking if you can beat several rifle shooters at 200m. Get the 200m out of your heads. Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. And the question isn't whether you can beat them, but whether you can survive. Even putting down a couple suppressive shots, or shoot one or two, while you run away, hide, retreat, is a part of the equation here. Anyways, I think the question has been answered, and it corresponds with everything we all generally assume. I just wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong. I think it’s you that misunderstand. Regardless of the range you’re dead 99.9% of the time. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 12:17:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A pistol can be drawn much more quickly to make some hits. The skilled pistol shooter would win if drawing/retreving is part of the game within 50 yards. Guns already in hands --- a rifle has significant advantages at any distance. I think a pistol might have an advantage at very close distances. Certainly a pistol is better when the distance is zero, where the attacker is physically striking you and you are shooting point blank But otherwise I agree with your point. Pistols also have the advantage of being the gun you have. Even at home at night I have a pistol in the nightstand while my rifle is in the closet. I can get the pistol ready in 10 seconds or so, without getting out of bed. It would take me maybe a minute to get the rifle ready. Big difference if glass just broke and I hear footsteps running up the stairway! |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 12:20:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You be surprised how easy it is to hit out to a 100 yd…with a handgun… I have hit a 10 in steel target at 200…. With……Please forgive me a 9mm… Hitting is one thing, ballistics is entirely another. FWIW, I've made hits at a 10" gong at 100 too, with just iron sights. But no one was shooting back at me making it not stressful and I had all the time in the world at a target that was out in the open and not moving. You'd be surprised too that that what you could do before which was easily for you, may be incredibly hard. Mortal two way range with no hearing protection at targets moving and using cover and concealment? Best way to problem solve all of this is to know real limitations and either fight your way to that rifle that hopefully has a can on it so you can gain every edge possible, or unass your position and live to "fight" another day as the fight you'd be in against rifleman wouldn't be fair at all for you. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 12:23:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: So this question is in regards to self-defense, crisis, or literally any situation that might come up. I know most people recommend the rifle, and for good reason. But let's say in this hypothetical, we are talking about an exceptionally skilled pistol shooter. Someone on the level of Jerry Miculek, Keanu Reeves, Taran Butler, Lucas Botkin, or other such high skilled shooters who specialize in pistol training. One can, with training, hit a man sized target at 200m. And one can train to hit multiple close range targets in succession. So could a person who trains exclusively with a pistol, and has attained that level of proficiency, effectively defend himself against multiple opportunists armed with rifles? How well would someone like Jerry Miculek handle himself against an ambush by a group of AR15 wielding thugs if he were armed with just a Glock and multiple magazines? ETA: My question is not assuming a 200m engagement distance. I stated that as an example of pistol potential accuracy. In my scenario, the engagement is in "city street distances." Maybe 50m tops. The ambush is hasty and unplanned. Both sides are surprised before shots start getting fired. ETA: Some of you guys don't seem to be understanding the jist of the question. I'm not asking if you can beat several rifle shooters at 200m. Get the 200m out of your heads. Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. And the question isn't whether you can beat them, but whether you can survive. Even putting down a couple suppressive shots, or shoot one or two, while you run away, hide, retreat, is a part of the equation here. Anyways, I think the question has been answered, and it corresponds with everything we all generally assume. I just wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong. Miculec would put bullets on target shockingly fast. At closer distances he would be tearing them apart before they knew what happened, depending entirely on how determined they are to kill him and how good/lucky they are. If they showed up specifically to kill him it would be a lot different than if they showed up thinking they were going to scare him into giving up his wallet. If it was an ambush, they would open up on him before he knew he was in a gun fight. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 12:42:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: So this question is in regards to self-defense, crisis, or literally any situation that might come up. I know most people recommend the rifle, and for good reason. But let's say in this hypothetical, we are talking about an exceptionally skilled pistol shooter. Someone on the level of Jerry Miculek, Keanu Reeves, Taran Butler, Lucas Botkin, or other such high skilled shooters who specialize in pistol training. One can, with training, hit a man sized target at 200m. And one can train to hit multiple close range targets in succession. So could a person who trains exclusively with a pistol, and has attained that level of proficiency, effectively defend himself against multiple opportunists armed with rifles? How well would someone like Jerry Miculek handle himself against an ambush by a group of AR15 wielding thugs if he were armed with just a Glock and multiple magazines? ETA: My question is not assuming a 200m engagement distance. I stated that as an example of pistol potential accuracy. In my scenario, the engagement is in "city street distances." Maybe 50m tops. The ambush is hasty and unplanned. Both sides are surprised before shots start getting fired. ETA: Some of you guys don't seem to be understanding the jist of the question. I'm not asking if you can beat several rifle shooters at 200m. Get the 200m out of your heads. Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. And the question isn't whether you can beat them, but whether you can survive. Even putting down a couple suppressive shots, or shoot one or two, while you run away, hide, retreat, is a part of the equation here. Anyways, I think the question has been answered, and it corresponds with everything we all generally assume. I just wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong. So you mean if a guy at 200m gets ambushed by a bunch of Jerry Miculeks with pistols at 50m and all the guy has is a rifle? Yeah he dead. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 1:10:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. OP, have you spent any time in the hood?. Rounding a corner and seeing hood rats do hood rat things; drug deal, burglary, whatever, is not uncommon. Heck I once drove up on a bank robbery. If your 50 yards away, the goblins don't care about you. Keep your head down and get off the X. Do not draw attention. Use a brisk walk until out of sight, then run if you need to. Call the cops once in a safe place. The last thing I would do in that situation is go for a gun. Run Hide Fight. It's a thing. I know for a fact I can hit a 3" x 7.5" steel ram offhand with a pistol at 100 yards using a tricked out 22 and decent ammo. I have hit IPSC targets at 100 yards with a full size pistol and 9mm ball. I have never tried 200 yards with a pistol, but I am game. I suppose I could give them a fight if it really came down to it. I would try to split them up. I would put evasion, concealment, and cover to good use. Still my only real chance would be to keep moving until help arrives or they break contact. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 1:27:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s not really true. Most shootings last 3-5 seconds. They are decided by what you have on you in that time. If you have time to get a rifle, you have time to call 911. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: smart people use a pistol to fight their way to their rifle. That’s not really true. Most shootings last 3-5 seconds. They are decided by what you have on you in that time. If you have time to get a rifle, you have time to call 911. But do the police get there in time to save you? |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 1:32:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Assuming the rifle shooters are reasonably competent? Pistol shooter is dead.
Maybe if the pistol shooter is extremely skilled with actual combat experience and the guys with rifles are conscripts with minimal training. Look into the African mall terrorist attack and the ex-SAS commando who rescued people with a pistol. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 1:34:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can find a handful of guys at your local USPSA club level match that would crush Botkin. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Keanu Reeves has spent 6 months and many tens of thousands of rounds training under Taran Butler. When you have the money to afford that kind of ammo and training, it's not much of a surprise. He's definitely better than most shooters on this forum. As for Lucas, the only evidence I have for him is what I've seen on his channel. The dude seems accurate and fast. I would buy instruction from him if I could. ETA: Here's a vid of Keanu Reeve's training. https://youtu.be/SEoMh_Z7FFs You can find a handful of guys at your local USPSA club level match that would crush Botkin. I don’t believe it, otherwise YouTube would have camera crews following them around. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 1:35:26 PM EDT
[#25]
If I am understanding the question right. Two groups walk around a corner. And surprise, both groups are surprised. Group one Jerry group two random gang bangers (how many, less than 4 my money is on Jerry) with ars at less than 50yrd. Way I think it would go down, Jerry would get off several shots while getting back around the corner into cover. Most likely hitting at least 2 of the group in the process. Rando gang bangers wouldn't have gotten a shot off until he was already behind cover. There odds of survival go WAY down when they close and try to find Jerry and get him from his cover..... I would NOT want to be the first to be going around that corner to find Jerry, or following him into a building....
With a planed ambush. Money is on rifles EVERY time. With a well trained group, at the ready with carbines in hand, money is on the rifles. At distance, my money is on the rifles. BUT totally random, at less than 50 yrds, with surprise for both sides, with cover only 1-2 steps away for Jerry. Money is on the one with the most training, and proficiency. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 1:35:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: smart people use a pistol to fight their way to their rifle. Hang on ya'll gotta drive my car back to the house meet ya back here in an hour aight? You will not rise to the occasion you will fall to the level of your training. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 1:41:10 PM EDT
[#27]
If everyone in this hypothetical scenario is wearing body armor, then the pistol shooter is obviously at a HUGE disadvantage. I just wanted to add that to the equation, since civilian ownership of plates is obviously a lot more common these days.
To me, the hypothetical really comes down to the skill level. If a super-trained and incredibly skilled handgun shooter is up against a small group (say 3-4) of clueless morons who are holding loaded rifles, but are not well trained nor proficient with them, and the range is less than 50 yards - then yeah, the handgun user probably has a good chance of winning, since he can likely get hits on all of them. But, if we're talking about a small group of reasonably proficient and well-trained rifle shooters (especially with some sort of red dot optics), then he is probably fucked, because they can get a volume of accurate fire on him. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 1:50:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of you guys don't seem to be understanding the jist of the question. I'm not asking if you can beat several rifle shooters at 200m. Get the 200m out of your heads. Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. And the question isn't whether you can beat them, but whether you can survive. Even putting down a couple suppressive shots, or shoot one or two, while you run away, hide, retreat, is a part of the equation here. Anyways, I think the question has been answered, and it corresponds with everything we all generally assume. I just wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong. You should be competent with your tools of choice, but it's not nearly as important as decision-making ability and situational awareness under pressure, imo. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 3:04:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Assuming the rifle shooters are reasonably competent? Pistol shooter is dead. Maybe if the pistol shooter is extremely skilled with actual combat experience and the guys with rifles are conscripts with minimal training. Look into the African mall terrorist attack and the ex-SAS commando who rescued people with a pistol. If you're talking about Christian Craighead, he had a rifle. 
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Posted: 3/24/2022 3:14:16 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of you guys don't seem to be understanding the jist of the question. I'm not asking if you can beat several rifle shooters at 200m. Get the 200m out of your heads. Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. And the question isn't whether you can beat them, but whether you can survive. Even putting down a couple suppressive shots, or shoot one or two, while you run away, hide, retreat, is a part of the equation here. Anyways, I think the question has been answered, and it corresponds with everything we all generally assume. I just wanted to know if my assumptions were wrong. If that is the case, Ima fuck up some gang bangers. They cant hit shit. |
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Posted: 3/24/2022 3:24:50 PM EDT
[#31]
I hope the pistol shooter has a bunch of mags, because he's going to need to lay down some serious fire to keep numerous attackers with rifles at bay.
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Posted: 3/25/2022 7:05:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t believe it, otherwise YouTube would have camera crews following them around. You’re easily impressed. Botkin is only an A-Class and when he actually competes he doesn’t even perform too well against other A-Class shooters. If you have any decent well of local talent you’ll have some M’s at locals. Hell, I’m a GM and I’m a weekend warrior with a day job. There’s a reason why people who are out there doing it don’t take him seriously. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 7:18:40 PM EDT
[#33]
You could start a World War
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Posted: 3/25/2022 7:19:25 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 3/25/2022 8:22:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP, have you spent any time in the hood?. Rounding a corner and seeing hood rats do hood rat things; drug deal, burglary, whatever, is not uncommon. Heck I once drove up on a bank robbery. If your 50 yards away, the goblins don't care about you. Keep your head down and get off the X. Do not draw attention. Use a brisk walk until out of sight, then run if you need to. Call the cops once in a safe place. The last thing I would do in that situation is go for a gun. Run Hide Fight. It's a thing. I know for a fact I can hit a 3" x 7.5" steel ram offhand with a pistol at 100 yards using a tricked out 22 and decent ammo. I have hit IPSC targets at 100 yards with a full size pistol and 9mm ball. I have never tried 200 yards with a pistol, but I am game. I suppose I could give them a fight if it really came down to it. I would try to split them up. I would put evasion, concealment, and cover to good use. Still my only real chance would be to keep moving until help arrives or they break contact. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Think distances within 50m. This isn't a planned ambush. You walked around the corner on a city street and startled a bunch of well armed gang bangers who are in progress of committing a burglary or some other form of activity. OP, have you spent any time in the hood?. Rounding a corner and seeing hood rats do hood rat things; drug deal, burglary, whatever, is not uncommon. Heck I once drove up on a bank robbery. If your 50 yards away, the goblins don't care about you. Keep your head down and get off the X. Do not draw attention. Use a brisk walk until out of sight, then run if you need to. Call the cops once in a safe place. The last thing I would do in that situation is go for a gun. Run Hide Fight. It's a thing. I know for a fact I can hit a 3" x 7.5" steel ram offhand with a pistol at 100 yards using a tricked out 22 and decent ammo. I have hit IPSC targets at 100 yards with a full size pistol and 9mm ball. I have never tried 200 yards with a pistol, but I am game. I suppose I could give them a fight if it really came down to it. I would try to split them up. I would put evasion, concealment, and cover to good use. Still my only real chance would be to keep moving until help arrives or they break contact. This. Unless maybe you own the business being robbed, why on earth would you go to guns in this scenario - and even if it was your business, it's still not a good idea. You have insurance, right? If you don't draw, then to the bad guys you're just some random pedestrian, so why would they be trying to kill you from that far away? This scenario doesn't really make sense. |
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Posted: 3/25/2022 9:16:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: smart people use a pistol to fight their way to their rifle. and whatever back up is available |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 1:29:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOh wait for what? Terrible ballistics compared to a rifle? Hasn't anyone ever taught you that just because you can, never means that you always should? Oh wait. Ya. That part. |
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