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Posted: 7/3/2021 11:58:09 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AP use became very widespread in ETO you been listening to/reading some bad sources The suggestion and request that M-2 AP become the standard round, replacing M-2 Ball, came from the ETO. By 1945 this was supposed to happen but the end of the war derailed the plan. As a follow up to this, much M-2 AP was repacked post-war in to clips for the M-1 rifle. An old friend was a marksmanship instructor at Parris Island in the 1950s and told me almost all of the ammo his recruits shot there was M-2 AP, which was demonstrated to be more accurate than M-2 Ball. An old boss of mine was an ROTC cadet at Norwich University in the mid-1960s. He gave me an en-bloc clip of M-2 AP that he was issued there. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 11:59:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What looks wrong with it? I think it is just the shadows. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would be concerned if a WWII Garand didn't have lockbar sights.  I've always wondered about this one without the lockbar. New Georgia, 1943: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg/743px-SC180577t.jpg High-res: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg The very first one was a flush nut type, but came loose very easily. Thus the lockbar for the later Type 1 and Type 2. Explain the rifle on the right to me please. The action looks fucked up??? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg Oh ok, maybe that's it. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 12:01:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AP use became very widespread in ETO you been listening to/reading some bad sources Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Widely issued to the Infantry in the Pacific, but not in the European theater from what I have been told/read. AP use became very widespread in ETO you been listening to/reading some bad sources Don Burgett of A/506 implied in his book about the bulge that he ran 100% AP. Which made sense, if you think about it and Germans had any sort of cover. I reread Eugene Sledge’s book and was stunned that K/3/5 took 400 casualties in about two months. Okinawa was another world entirely |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 12:03:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: is that a Luger he's carrying? In the clamshell holster? Likely a Nambu. Of course we don’t know what’s actually INSIDE that holster.  It greatly influenced the post-war design of the Sturm-Ruger Standard .22 pistol (and the subsequent Mk.I, Mk.II, etc.) In both profile and mechanical operation. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 12:20:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the clamshell holster? Likely a Nambu. Of course we don’t know what’s actually INSIDE that holster. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Type_A_Model_1902_Grandpa_Nambu.jpg It greatly influenced the post-war design of the Sturm-Ruger Standard .22 pistol (and the subsequent Mk.I, Mk.II, etc.) In both profile and mechanical operation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: is that a Luger he's carrying? In the clamshell holster? Likely a Nambu. Of course we don’t know what’s actually INSIDE that holster. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Type_A_Model_1902_Grandpa_Nambu.jpg It greatly influenced the post-war design of the Sturm-Ruger Standard .22 pistol (and the subsequent Mk.I, Mk.II, etc.) In both profile and mechanical operation. .. I'm a dummythanks, sorry... I didn't even think about Marine/pacific... just assumed a full protection holster like that would be a luger.. interesting Ruger history... it looks to have many similar features.. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 1:26:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aren't there pines on Okinawa? yes there are pine trees in Okinawa . |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 1:58:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What makes you think that (unless I'm missing something like M2 AP stenciled on the bando)?  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 2:16:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Looks like the guy on teh left has the 3 pocket grenade pouch?
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Posted: 7/3/2021 2:26:26 PM EDT
[#9]
why do they not have the cartridge belt on ? was it junk or they just didn't like the re load time or what? maybe 80rds on the belt so weight?
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Posted: 7/3/2021 3:00:23 PM EDT
[#10]
From my studies on the topic, the amount of light skinned vehicles & the like employed by the Germans meant that the US .mil classified WW2 as an "armored battlefield" scenario - so the default issue .30-cal ammo was to be the M2 AP round, with FMJ relegated for stateside training and other duties
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Posted: 7/3/2021 3:29:34 PM EDT
[#11]
The M1911 pistol looks like it is still wrapped in the plastic waterproof bag.
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Posted: 7/3/2021 3:34:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Widely issued to the Infantry in the Pacific, but not in the European theater from what I have been told/read. I wonder if it was because of all the palm logs that the Japanese Imperial Army used in building fortifications? IIRC that shit could soak up even heavy arty like it was a sponge. And the Japs knew how to make a fortification with it like nobody on the planet. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 3:39:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've always wondered about this one without the lockbar. New Georgia, 1943: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg/743px-SC180577t.jpg High-res: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg He probably “liberated” it from the Army. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 4:06:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it says AP on the bando Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I am fairly certain that bandoleer of ammo is M2 AP. What makes you think that (unless I'm missing something like M2 AP stenciled on the bando)? An M1 rifleman had ten clips to a cartridge belt (and in the magazine photo he's wearing a pistol belt), and six to a bandoleer. https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_368,al_c,q_95/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.webp https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_393,al_c,q_95/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.webp |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 4:07:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He probably "liberated" it from the Army. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've always wondered about this one without the lockbar. New Georgia, 1943: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg/743px-SC180577t.jpg High-res: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg He probably "liberated" it from the Army. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 4:12:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So why does the military and "tactical trainers" all discourage the chicken wing arm while shooting? Seemed to work for these Marines. The nearly pathological obsession about "chicken wing this" and "chicken wing that" seems to have come from the MOUT training in the early part of the Iraq WOT training. When many young Marines and Army Infantry had to worry about stacking up on doors and entry and evrrry thang. My instructors, as post Korean/Vietnam people, only really cared about "forming a pocket," something which really helped you on the shooters line in National Match competitions. The worries of the most modern urban combat soldiers had not made it into the training at the last time I took instruction with a long arm. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 4:18:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryLooks like the same ammo we collected off the Haitians after we landed post-invasion that never happened. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 4:29:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Squaring up your shooting stance...Your plates face perpendicular the the bad guys...Like a tank orienting its front slope towards a threat where its armor is the thickest. Chicken winging is old school, square range Steel/wood rifle technique. Depending on the scenario, both are tool in the tool box. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So why does the military and "tactical trainers" all discourage the chicken wing arm while shooting? Seemed to work for these Marines. Squaring up your shooting stance...Your plates face perpendicular the the bad guys...Like a tank orienting its front slope towards a threat where its armor is the thickest. Chicken winging is old school, square range Steel/wood rifle technique. Depending on the scenario, both are tool in the tool box. That and I imagine that with the amount of trigger time the WWII guys had more than a few were crack shots chicken wing or not. I imagine the 30 cal battle rifles of all sides were serious weapons in the right hands. I have a yugo M48 8mm Mauser for example that's a dream to shoot and super accurate, I'd damn sure not want someone to be shooting at me with one. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 4:32:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My grandfather was in the Pacific during WWII. He was a Sargent in the Philippines, and carried a 1928 Thompson. My grandmother always told me a story where a local walked up to him, grabbed his arm and said "Good koykoy" or something to that effect. Suppose to mean "good meat". Unfortunately that is the only things i know about what my grandfather did in WWII. you can get his service records from Vet-Recs and get some more info. My grandfather was Army in the same area in 44-45 |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 5:03:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've always loved how combat troops come up with their own improvised kits and loadouts. WW2 was the epitome of this and paratroopers were masters. Check out this 501st, 101st Airborne captain during Operation Market Garden. 1911 hanging on an improvised belt, an extra pocket sewn on his right jacket sleeve, his helmet shell has non-standard replacement straps, it appears he may have cut his liner A-yokes down, and, most interestingly, he has little dots on his left sleeve. My theory on those dots is that they're snaps for removable rank chevrons, though that seems a bit unlikely seeing that he's an officer. ????? But I don't know what else they'd be. https://i.imgur.com/5XozTgT.jpg I could be wrong, but the dots/marks on his sleeve look like the double-sewn spots at the tips of where sergeant stripes would have been. Battlefield promotion perhaps? ETA. Eh. Looking at it again, idunno. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 5:06:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KC-130 FLT ENG: Not Marines. Soldiers in the 96th Infantry division on Okinawa. Thank you for the correction. Fixed. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 5:08:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: is that a Luger he's carrying? |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 5:21:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Explain the rifle on the right to me please. The action looks fucked up??? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would be concerned if a WWII Garand didn't have lockbar sights. I've always wondered about this one without the lockbar. New Georgia, 1943: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg/743px-SC180577t.jpg High-res: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg The very first one was a flush nut type, but came loose very easily. Thus the lockbar for the later Type 1 and Type 2. Explain the rifle on the right to me please. The action looks fucked up??? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg Looks to me the bolt is locked open. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 5:52:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What makes you think that (unless I'm missing something like M2 AP stenciled on the bando)? An M1 rifleman had ten clips to a cartridge belt (and in the magazine photo he's wearing a pistol belt), and six to a bandoleer. https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_368,al_c,q_95/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.webp https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_393,al_c,q_95/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.webp Since when does 10x8 = 88? New math? |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 6:04:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since when does 10x8 = 88? New math? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What makes you think that (unless I'm missing something like M2 AP stenciled on the bando)? An M1 rifleman had ten clips to a cartridge belt (and in the magazine photo he's wearing a pistol belt), and six to a bandoleer. https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_368,al_c,q_95/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.webp https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_393,al_c,q_95/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.webp Since when does 10x8 = 88? New math? 10x8 in the bandolier and one clip of 8 in the rifle. 88 |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 6:10:29 PM EDT
[#27]
My grandfather was Army in the Pacific. Talked about how bad Saipan and Okinawa were.
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Posted: 7/3/2021 6:21:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you suffer over 100% casualties some shit goes by the wayside. how exactly, does that happen? |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 6:31:48 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What makes you think that (unless I'm missing something like M2 AP stenciled on the bando)? An M1 rifleman had ten clips to a cartridge belt (and in the magazine photo he's wearing a pistol belt), and six to a bandoleer. https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_368,al_c,q_95/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.webp https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_393,al_c,q_95/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.webp I recently snagged a USMC stenciled cartridge belt, empty clips though. neat stuff |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 6:38:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Explain the rifle on the right to me please. The action looks fucked up??? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg Doesn't look like anything is wrong with the limited amount of the action that you can see. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 6:59:55 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What makes you think that (unless I'm missing something like M2 AP stenciled on the bando)? An M1 rifleman had ten clips to a cartridge belt (and in the magazine photo he's wearing a pistol belt), and six to a bandoleer. https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_368,al_c,q_95/a137e0_ae2fadbd11a048de80877fee2aef815e~mv2.webp https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_393,al_c,q_95/a137e0_0052fdcaf0da467e8c14967eb45ea9b7~mv2.webp Some of those guys ditched the ammo belt and would carry loose enblocs in a demo bag like the other guy has on. They even made a version of the demo bag that was an ammo carrier/GP bag.  |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 7:02:45 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: why do they not have the cartridge belt on ? was it junk or they just didn't like the re load time or what? maybe 80rds on the belt so weight? He may be an officer or non com judging by the 1911, but some ditched the cartridge belt for a bag full of en blocs and bandoliers. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 7:10:35 PM EDT
[#33]
OP - Solid edit on the title of this thread. US Army more amphibious ops in WII than all the USMC.
To my USMC brothers - love you guys just a friendly remember. RLTW! |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 7:11:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryHis buddy's got a Satchel Charge slung over his shoulder. Big Bada-Boom. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 7:22:09 PM EDT
[#35]
What those men accomplished is amazing!!! What sadder is how our country is crapping all over their legacy.
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Posted: 7/3/2021 7:24:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: how exactly, does that happen? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When you suffer over 100% casualties some shit goes by the wayside. how exactly, does that happen? |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 7:25:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would be concerned if a WWII Garand didn't have lockbar sights. They are out there |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 7:31:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are out there Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would be concerned if a WWII Garand didn't have lockbar sights. They are out there Few lockbars survive. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 8:03:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: how exactly, does that happen? A 225 man Marine rifle company loses seven Marines, killed and wounded. The next day it receives seven replacements. Repeat for two months. Maybe 15 Marines are still in the company unwounded that started the battle. All the rest of the original Marines and 200 of the replacements are hit. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 8:14:36 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've always wondered about this one without the lockbar. New Georgia, 1943: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg/743px-SC180577t.jpg High-res: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg The old flushnut rear sight...they sucked at keeping zero....that's why the lockbar was introduced. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would be concerned if a WWII Garand didn't have lockbar sights. I've always wondered about this one without the lockbar. New Georgia, 1943: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg/743px-SC180577t.jpg High-res: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/SC180577t.jpg The old flushnut rear sight...they sucked at keeping zero....that's why the lockbar was introduced. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 8:23:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP - Solid edit on the title of this thread. US Army more amphibious ops in WII than all the USMC. To my USMC brothers - love you guys just a friendly remember. RLTW! USMC -- more amphib landings under enemy fire than US Army  .... landings that actually count for bragging rights old boy. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 8:26:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's how it was for the Iraq invasion in 2003. People had all kinds of shit going on with their gear. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 8:39:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: USMC -- more amphib landings under enemy fire than US Army .... landings that actually count for bragging rights old boy. IDK Brother - watch the footage from the jump on Corrigador. And none in the ETO. Of course I am just busting balls ????. |
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Posted: 7/3/2021 11:02:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your 42 is probably all refurb except the receiver. Few lockbars survive. I picked up a March 45 SA this Spring at Anniston that was all original except for trigger group. Let's just say I was a bit excited. Some good things do come out of the Philippines. |
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Posted: 7/4/2021 12:39:41 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I picked up a March 45 SA this Spring at Anniston that was all original except for trigger group. Let's just say I was a bit excited. Some good things do come out of the Philippines. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your 42 is probably all refurb except the receiver. Few lockbars survive. I picked up a March 45 SA this Spring at Anniston that was all original except for trigger group. Let's just say I was a bit excited. Some good things do come out of the Philippines. I did the M1 Armor's Course in Dec 19. They had most of the Philippines there and had just started selling them. There were some gems in there. |
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Posted: 7/4/2021 1:34:53 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: USMC -- more amphib landings under enemy fire than US Army .... landings that actually count for bragging rights old boy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OP - Solid edit on the title of this thread. US Army more amphibious ops in WII than all the USMC. To my USMC brothers - love you guys just a friendly remember. RLTW! USMC -- more amphib landings under enemy fire than US Army .... landings that actually count for bragging rights old boy. North Africa-Torch Sicily-Husky Italy-Baytown Normandy-Overlord Then the Army AF ended the Pacific war with a couple of bombs. If we are talking about things that count. |
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Posted: 7/4/2021 3:02:38 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That and I imagine that with the amount of trigger time the WWII guys had more than a few were crack shots chicken wing or not. I imagine the 30 cal battle rifles of all sides were serious weapons in the right hands. I have a yugo M48 8mm Mauser for example that's a dream to shoot and super accurate, I'd damn sure not want someone to be shooting at me with one. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So why does the military and "tactical trainers" all discourage the chicken wing arm while shooting? Seemed to work for these Marines. Squaring up your shooting stance...Your plates face perpendicular the the bad guys...Like a tank orienting its front slope towards a threat where its armor is the thickest. Chicken winging is old school, square range Steel/wood rifle technique. Depending on the scenario, both are tool in the tool box. That and I imagine that with the amount of trigger time the WWII guys had more than a few were crack shots chicken wing or not. I imagine the 30 cal battle rifles of all sides were serious weapons in the right hands. I have a yugo M48 8mm Mauser for example that's a dream to shoot and super accurate, I'd damn sure not want someone to be shooting at me with one. Has some knucklehead tried to tell you the chicken wing hinders accuracy? The only issue with a chicken wing is it gives the enemy an extra spot to hit with bullets. It doesn't harm accuracy at all. |
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Posted: 7/4/2021 4:54:56 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Wat? Has some knucklehead tried to tell you the chicken wing hinders accuracy? The only issue with a chicken wing is it gives the enemy an extra spot to hit with bullets. It doesn't harm accuracy at all. Amen to that.  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/4/2021 6:27:44 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KC-130 FLT ENG: Not Marines. Soldiers in the 96th Infantry division on Okinawa. Not likely but could have been my father. |
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Posted: 7/4/2021 7:21:52 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: USMC -- more amphib landings under enemy fire than US Army .... landings that actually count for bragging rights old boy. It would be more useful to count the number of men landed in operations. The Army has nearly six times as many divisions in the Pacific, and for that matter the Army put 73,000 men across the beaches on June 6, 1944…a number equivalent to 1 in 9 of the men who served in the USMC during the entire war. |
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