Kel-Tec’s secret is out: The KS7 shotgun and CP33 pistol are here - Page 6

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Kel-Tec’s secret is out: The KS7 shotgun and CP33 pistol are here (Page 6 of 9)

Posted: 1/15/2019 12:01:25 PM EST

[#1]

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They sure love the "space age" grid on their grips.

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Ripe for stippling or traction tape.
I've used the pebbled rubber texture on a couple, in the grooves of my PF9, and over the whole thing on my RFB. No complaints.

Posted: 1/15/2019 12:03:01 PM EST

[#2]

Kel-Tec makes awesome starting points for movie/TV sci-fi prop guns.

Posted: 1/15/2019 12:22:28 PM EST

[#3]

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So you're looking at something like a B&T USW then...

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No. Yes?

I think the part that's interesting to me is the railed top-cover on the Pistol, Comp, Charging Handle, and the factory gas pedal.

I'm actually wondering why this hasn't been done to produce what I'd call a "Carry Optics" handgun. With the prevalence of the "Roland Special", I figured that we'd be seeing a lot more factory options on making handguns more than contact distance fighting weapons.

Posted: 1/15/2019 12:26:47 PM EST

[#4]

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That could be another side of it. When you are in a business of making things that could be categorically banned, essentially overnight, you don't want to carry a boat load of inventory, and you don't want to have millions in new equipment and tooling that you would then have to re-purpose or sell at a loss.

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My interest is in their long-term success because I'd like to own more of their guns. Some people get their jimmies rustled when you tell it like it is but blowing sunshine up a company's ass doesn't get anyone anywhere.

That could be another side of it. When you are in a business of making things that could be categorically banned, essentially overnight, you don't want to carry a boat load of inventory, and you don't want to have millions in new equipment and tooling that you would then have to re-purpose or sell at a loss.

If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

Posted: 1/15/2019 12:37:28 PM EST

[#5]

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That's hilarious. Didn't understand my sig line I see.

What do making knives and grenades have to do with producing plenty of brand new civilian handguns for sale? Yeah, not a damn thing. Bunch of people sound like Dave Ramsey acolytes with the "debt is bad in all circumstances, mmmkay!"

Debt is financial leverage. Kel-Tec royally fucked up by not taking on some good ol' fashioned leverage to expand production years ago. They could have already paid it off and be making profits in spades. Now they continue to produce what amounts to prototype firearms, most of which will never be seen out in the wild by the majority of people.

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Anyone can look on Google and see that Kel tec has a rotating production line. They do this so they can evenly produce enough numbers of their entire product line without gaps of years between them. They try to meet demand, but the fact is they don't have to. All their guns are going to sell.

Do you understand this basic fact? They run an extremely successful business regardless of whether or not you're not happy that you can't get their shit when you want it.

Impatient people like you are why Magpul no longer releases information about what they may be producing in the future. It's also why they don't post on this forum very often anymore. Many companies have followed this because of people like you on this forum.

Oh I'm so sorry for offending their sensibilities. Why is it that if I want a Glock 17, 19, 26 or whatever else model they're making, I can go just about anywhere and buy one brand new? How about S&W? Or Sig?

How is it that these other gun manufacturers can do it but Kel-Tec can't figure it out?

ETA: to address this idiotic argument and thinly veiled shot at me for being impatient - who gives a shit about what you define as extremely successful? If they're not meeting demand consistently, then they're missing out on potential revenue and it's pretty obvious it's A LOT of revenue they're missing. Also, it turns away a lot of potential customers as well if they want your product but can't get it. They move on and look elsewhere. Again, lost revenue. Yeah, great business decision.

Massive Police and military contracts is how other companies can do it. Not to mention most of those other companies produce other things as well. For example Glock mak grenades and knives, and all kinds of tools and military gadgets. Other companies also have signed production and contracts to fill for other companies for parts they don't have the capacity to produce.

Even Ruger has a lot of police and military contracts, and do metal casting for parts that aren't even related to guns for other companies.

Kel tecs entire market, nearly anyway, is civilian.

you could've at least use that huge brain of yours to figure that one out.

DeVry University business degrees aren't real business degrees.

That's hilarious. Didn't understand my sig line I see.

What do making knives and grenades have to do with producing plenty of brand new civilian handguns for sale? Yeah, not a damn thing. Bunch of people sound like Dave Ramsey acolytes with the "debt is bad in all circumstances, mmmkay!"

Debt is financial leverage. Kel-Tec royally fucked up by not taking on some good ol' fashioned leverage to expand production years ago. They could have already paid it off and be making profits in spades. Now they continue to produce what amounts to prototype firearms, most of which will never be seen out in the wild by the majority of people.

Risk vs reward? Are they making enough profits for what they need? What's the risk if they do take on the debt? I can see if they see slow steady growth without debt w/ sufficient profit where they wouldn't follow your plan. Lots of gun companies go under that way. That leverage can kill you or force you out of your company when someone else gets it.

Posted: 1/15/2019 12:45:19 PM EST

[#6]

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If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

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Have you ever worked for a privately owned manufacturing company?
I do.
It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops.

Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales.

Posted: 1/15/2019 12:51:21 PM EST

[#7]

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If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

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My interest is in their long-term success because I'd like to own more of their guns. Some people get their jimmies rustled when you tell it like it is but blowing sunshine up a company's ass doesn't get anyone anywhere.

That could be another side of it. When you are in a business of making things that could be categorically banned, essentially overnight, you don't want to carry a boat load of inventory, and you don't want to have millions in new equipment and tooling that you would then have to re-purpose or sell at a loss.

If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

In an outright ban they're virtually all fucked. Keltec makes enough different stuff they could adapt w/ anything short of an outright ban, and w/o the debt load they have a chance to do that.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:19:30 PM EST

[#8]

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In an outright ban they're virtually all fucked. Keltec makes enough different stuff they could adapt w/ anything short of an outright ban, and w/o the debt load they have a chance to do that.

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I personally would like to see a new run if the su-16 series but the c/CA models. Also with an mlok handguard in place of the bipod.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:20:04 PM EST

[#9]

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In an outright ban they're virtually all fucked. Keltec makes enough different stuff they could adapt w/ anything short of an outright ban, and w/o the debt load they have a chance to do that.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
My interest is in their long-term success because I'd like to own more of their guns. Some people get their jimmies rustled when you tell it like it is but blowing sunshine up a company's ass doesn't get anyone anywhere.

That could be another side of it. When you are in a business of making things that could be categorically banned, essentially overnight, you don't want to carry a boat load of inventory, and you don't want to have millions in new equipment and tooling that you would then have to re-purpose or sell at a loss.

If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

In an outright ban they're virtually all fucked. Keltec makes enough different stuff they could adapt w/ anything short of an outright ban, and w/o the debt load they have a chance to do that.

I would say you'd see all but the major players go kaput. Glock, S&W, Sig, etc. would stick around due to .gov/LEO contracts but they'd still have to cut way back and sell off a lot of assets to downsize.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:24:26 PM EST

[#10]

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I have a feeling that demand would drop off quickly as MSRP increased, based on the name on the side alone.
They are still trying to build a quality reputation.
If Kelgren is happy making the margins he is making, then who am I to complain? Yes, he could probably expand and bump production with more margin per unit up front, but
I could still buy what I want from them, it just takes some looking or patience on certain things.
I told my gun shop to order an RFB the day after they were announced, and one showed up a month or so later, sub 500 SN, sub $1400. I bought it.

As opposed to DesertTech, who handled their MDR launch completely differently and are still floundering to get out a serviceable rifle.

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These guns (various models) get snapped up and re-sold when they are first released.

KSGs were going for 1800 on gun broker. Which, for the number of guns available, was the market price.

Keltec can grab that profit, or leave it to the speculators who get lucky for resale. Either way, the market price gets set by the market.

They can always drop the price once there are lots of them later. Nobody on the consumer side would know the difference, other than the profit goes to KT rather than some neckbeard.

It's a goddamn simple concept, charge more when there are only a few.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:26:04 PM EST

[#11]

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Have you ever worked for a privately owned manufacturing company?
I do.
It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops.

Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

Have you ever worked for a privately owned manufacturing company?
I do.
It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops.

Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales.

With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:27:15 PM EST

[#12]

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Quoted:
These guns (various models) get snapped up and re-sold when they are first released.

KSGs were going for 1800 on gun broker. Which, for the number of guns available, was the market price.

Keltec can grab that profit, or leave it to the speculators who get lucky for resale. Either way, the market price gets set by the market.

They can always drop the price once there are lots of them later. Nobody on the consumer side would know the difference, other than the profit goes to KT rather than some neckbeard.

It's a goddamn simple concept, charge more when there are only a few.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

I have a feeling that demand would drop off quickly as MSRP increased, based on the name on the side alone.
They are still trying to build a quality reputation.
If Kelgren is happy making the margins he is making, then who am I to complain? Yes, he could probably expand and bump production with more margin per unit up front, but
I could still buy what I want from them, it just takes some looking or patience on certain things.
I told my gun shop to order an RFB the day after they were announced, and one showed up a month or so later, sub 500 SN, sub $1400. I bought it.

As opposed to DesertTech, who handled their MDR launch completely differently and are still floundering to get out a serviceable rifle.

These guns (various models) get snapped up and re-sold when they are first released.

KSGs were going for 1800 on gun broker. Which, for the number of guns available, was the market price.

Keltec can grab that profit, or leave it to the speculators who get lucky for resale. Either way, the market price gets set by the market.

They can always drop the price once there are lots of them later. Nobody on the consumer side would know the difference, other than the profit goes to KT rather than some neckbeard.

It's a goddamn simple concept, charge more when there are only a few.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:30:30 PM EST

[#13]

It's not that simple. Remember that most of the guns are sold by dealers to the final customer.

So when dealers have inventory on the shelves they purchased for $1000.00 wholesale, and then Kel-Tec drops the price to $800.00 (for example), the dealer takes a bath on that item in inventory and thinks twice before stocking any more Kel-Tec products.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:33:37 PM EST

[#14]

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It's not that simple. Remember that most of the guns are sold by dealers to the final customer.

So when dealers have inventory on the shelves they purchased for $1000.00 wholesale, and then Kel-Tec drops the price to $800.00 (for example), the dealer takes a bath on that item in inventory and thinks twice before stocking any more Kel-Tec products.

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Get out of here with all that distributor relationship logic....

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:34:04 PM EST

[#15]

By the way, not a huge fan of the KSG, but that KS7 looks pretty awesome (size and weight of an MP5A2!) and if KelTec manages to get these on dealers' shelves in quantity and retailing at or under $400.00, they will do very well on them. Think of them as a Shockwave competitor.

I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing...

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:34:46 PM EST

[#16]

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https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/unturned-bunker/images/9/92/He's_right_you_know.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151210133445

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Quoted:

Quoted:

I have a feeling that demand would drop off quickly as MSRP increased, based on the name on the side alone.
They are still trying to build a quality reputation.
If Kelgren is happy making the margins he is making, then who am I to complain? Yes, he could probably expand and bump production with more margin per unit up front, but
I could still buy what I want from them, it just takes some looking or patience on certain things.
I told my gun shop to order an RFB the day after they were announced, and one showed up a month or so later, sub 500 SN, sub $1400. I bought it.

As opposed to DesertTech, who handled their MDR launch completely differently and are still floundering to get out a serviceable rifle.

These guns (various models) get snapped up and re-sold when they are first released.

KSGs were going for 1800 on gun broker. Which, for the number of guns available, was the market price.

Keltec can grab that profit, or leave it to the speculators who get lucky for resale. Either way, the market price gets set by the market.

They can always drop the price once there are lots of them later. Nobody on the consumer side would know the difference, other than the profit goes to KT rather than some neckbeard.

It's a goddamn simple concept, charge more when there are only a few.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/unturned-bunker/images/9/92/He's_right_you_know.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151210133445

However the problem is they hardly sell for 800-900 now. So matching neckbeards on GunBroker isn't a winning strategy.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:34:50 PM EST

[#17]

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It's not that simple. Remember that most of the guns are sold by dealers to the final customer.

So when dealers have inventory on the shelves they purchased for $1000.00 wholesale, and then Kel-Tec drops the price to $800.00 (for example), the dealer takes a bath on that item in inventory and thinks twice before stocking any more Kel-Tec products.

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Yup just like car manufacturers can’t sell to the public and the big profits from hard to get stuff is made by the dealers not the manufacturer.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:36:45 PM EST

[#18]

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Quoted:
It's not that simple. Remember that most of the guns are sold by dealers to the final customer.

So when dealers have inventory on the shelves they purchased for $1000.00 wholesale, and then Kel-Tec drops the price to $800.00 (for example), the dealer takes a bath on that item in inventory and thinks twice before stocking any more Kel-Tec products.

View Quote

It is simple. All the other major players have figured out an equilibrium (supply vs demand) price point for their guns as to not necessitate constant pricing changes. It just requires a little market research, which any company should be involved in to some degree. Know your customer.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:39:31 PM EST

[#19]

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With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

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Quoted:
If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

Have you ever worked for a privately owned manufacturing company?
I do.
It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops.

Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales.

With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

You realize that KelTec has ramped up production significantly over the last decade? Used to be you couldn’t find a Sub2k to save your life but now they’re out and available in different colors.

I’m not coming at this blind. I am sure you have a much broader knowledge of finance and business models. I sold guns for almost 10 ten years at both the retail and wholesale level. Been out of the game almost 6 years now. KelTec has certainly gotten much better than they were 10 years ago and I assume they will be better yet in another 10 years.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:39:42 PM EST

[#20]

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I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing...

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I wouldn't be surprised if the carry handle could be directly swapped for a KSG rail. The mount points look pretty much identical.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:50:10 PM EST

[#21]

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I wouldn't be surprised if the carry handle could be directly swapped for a KSG rail. The mount points look pretty much identical.

https://www.gearshout.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Kel-Tec-KS7-Shotgun-2019-photo-7.jpg

https://www.huntinggearguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/KelTec-KSG.jpg

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Quoted:
I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing...

I wouldn't be surprised if the carry handle could be directly swapped for a KSG rail. The mount points look pretty much identical.

https://www.gearshout.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Kel-Tec-KS7-Shotgun-2019-photo-7.jpg

https://www.huntinggearguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/KelTec-KSG.jpg

That might work really well. On the other hand, there are carry handle optics for an AR. Might be easy enough to mount one there.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:50:34 PM EST

[#22]

I will have that pistol. Haters be damned. Keltec has some really cool guns. I would, however, wait for Ruger to improve upon their design of it was guaranteed.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:50:44 PM EST

[#23]

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I wouldn't be surprised if the carry handle could be directly swapped for a KSG rail. The mount points look pretty much identical.

https://www.gearshout.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Kel-Tec-KS7-Shotgun-2019-photo-7.jpg

https://www.huntinggearguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/KelTec-KSG.jpg

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing...

I wouldn't be surprised if the carry handle could be directly swapped for a KSG rail. The mount points look pretty much identical.

https://www.gearshout.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Kel-Tec-KS7-Shotgun-2019-photo-7.jpg

https://www.huntinggearguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/KelTec-KSG.jpg

In a lot of their stuff that is usually the case. But sometimes they really want you to try and figure it out on your own instead of saying it. Which I hate but understand.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:51:30 PM EST

[#24]

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The KS7 is kind of interesting although recoil is probably pretty brutal I would think.

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I dunno, I had the Mossberg bullpup shotgun for a while and it was fun to shoot. Looked very similar to this KS7. One of the few guns I regret selling.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:52:21 PM EST

[#25]

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Yup just like car manufacturers can't sell to the public and the big profits from hard to get stuff is made by the dealers not the manufacturer.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
It's not that simple. Remember that most of the guns are sold by dealers to the final customer.

So when dealers have inventory on the shelves they purchased for $1000.00 wholesale, and then Kel-Tec drops the price to $800.00 (for example), the dealer takes a bath on that item in inventory and thinks twice before stocking any more Kel-Tec products.

Yup just like car manufacturers can't sell to the public and the big profits from hard to get stuff is made by the dealers not the manufacturer.

Dealers aren't making shit for profit on the sale price of a vehicle. Apples to oranges. All the money in cars is in dealer/manufacturer financing. That's why they'll give you a better price if you agree to finance through them.

Nobody is saying Kel-Tec should be playing follow the leader with neckbeards on GunBroker. We're saying they should do a little research before establishing their MSRP and what their dealer pricing is going to be based on what they're able to supply.

Posted: 1/15/2019 1:54:27 PM EST

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
You realize that KelTec has ramped up production significantly over the last decade? Used to be you couldn't find a Sub2k to save your life but now they're out and available in different colors.

I'm not coming at this blind. I am sure you have a much broader knowledge of finance and business models. I sold guns for almost 10 ten years at both the retail and wholesale level. Been out of the game almost 6 years now. KelTec has certainly gotten much better than they were 10 years ago and I assume they will be better yet in another 10 years.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need...

Have you ever worked for a privately owned manufacturing company?
I do.
It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops.

Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales.

With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs.

You realize that KelTec has ramped up production significantly over the last decade? Used to be you couldn't find a Sub2k to save your life but now they're out and available in different colors.

I'm not coming at this blind. I am sure you have a much broader knowledge of finance and business models. I sold guns for almost 10 ten years at both the retail and wholesale level. Been out of the game almost 6 years now. KelTec has certainly gotten much better than they were 10 years ago and I assume they will be better yet in another 10 years.

And I am definitely one that hopes they continue to progress because I like their stuff. I was only able to acquire a Sub2k in the last year for the reasons you stated. I would love a PMR-30 as well but can't find them other than used and only at a few select online dealers.

Posted: 1/15/2019 2:06:27 PM EST

[#27]

Blah my days of owning KT has long gone. Crappy QC and being the beta tester for KT is not for me.

Posted: 1/15/2019 2:12:17 PM EST

[#28]

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And I am definitely one that hopes they continue to progress because I like their stuff. I was only able to acquire a Sub2k in the last year for the reasons you stated. I would love a PMR-30 as well but can't find them other than used and only at a few select online dealers.

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Start at the top, work your way down. If it says "in stock" call or email to verify. Not that hard.

https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/pmr-30

This one says in stock at $318
https://www.deguns.net/kel-tec-pmr-30-22-wmr11/p?idsku=10542&utm_source=wikiarms

I saw at least a dozen of them for sale, new, at the local gun show a few weeks ago.

Posted: 1/15/2019 2:14:15 PM EST

[#29]

Whittaker is another fallback for me, they've even got the CMR-30 in stock...

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/store/shop?sorting=inventory_desc&d=amount:0:8000,count:-100:10000&searchTerm=pmr-30&list=false&paging=page:0,size:20,index:0

Posted: 1/15/2019 3:31:20 PM EST

[#30]

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Quoted:
You both replied so I'll reply to both of you:

If they don't want to raise debt to expand, fine. That still leaves them with their pricing model being completely wrong with respect to the demand curve. They should raise their prices and decrease demand commensurate with what they can supply. Per the chart below, they should be moving the price in the other direction from P1 to P, where point A is where the supply curve crosses, i.e. the number of units Kel-Tec can produce. And by the way, their profit margin on every unit sold would be significantly higher doing that without changing the number of units sold.

http://www.revisealevel.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Demand-Curve.png
https://i.stack.imgur.com/UBUfx.jpg

Thanks for attending today's lesson.

@zedsdeadbaby
@alaskanfire

View Quote

Wow, first week lesson of Economics 101.

I don't think you get it. Actually, I am 100% positive you don't get it.

They do not want to decrease demand. They are happy with their pricing.

They couldn't care less if they aren't making enough guns for YOU to be happy. People who want their guns are going to buy them.

They sell EVERY gun they make VERY quickly.

They DO NOT want to expand in a manner where they will lose their ass to a new gun law.

Kel Tec is run EXACTLY the way the owner wants to, and it is a very successful company. Its their corporate value and ethics.

People like you can't even wrap your heads around why Chik-Fil-A is closed on Sunday.

Posted: 1/15/2019 3:55:34 PM EST

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
Wow, first week lesson of Economics 101. -- and yet, you somehow missed the concept.

I don't think you get it. Actually, I am 100% positive you don't get it. -- oh I get it. You and Kel-Tec don't get it.

They do not want to decrease demand. They are happy with their pricing. -- so they're happy with pissing off potential customers. Got it. Smart move.

They couldn't care less if they aren't making enough guns for YOU to be happy. People who want their guns are going to buy them. -- how many times do I have to say it. I am one who wants their guns. There are a bunch of other people like me who want them and can't get them. Again, shitty attitude to have for long-term success.

They sell EVERY gun they make VERY quickly. -- that's what happens when demand vastly outweighs supply. They sell toilet paper and bottled water really quickly before a hurricane. Still doesn't mean what they're doing is smart business

They DO NOT want to expand in a manner where they will lose their ass to a new gun law. -- could have already expanded years ago. No ass lost. Low interest rates, demand was there for the product. Very low risk. Huge opportunity missed.

Kel Tec is run EXACTLY the way the owner wants to, and it is a very successful company. Its their corporate value and ethics. -- so you're basically making the point they are doing things poorly because they want to. And "very successful company" by what metric? Market share? Profit margin? Retained earnings? Keeping it's owner off welfare?

People like you can't even wrap your heads around why Chik-Fil-A is closed on Sunday. -- and yet they can still meet demand the other 6 days of the week.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
You both replied so I'll reply to both of you:

If they don't want to raise debt to expand, fine. That still leaves them with their pricing model being completely wrong with respect to the demand curve. They should raise their prices and decrease demand commensurate with what they can supply. Per the chart below, they should be moving the price in the other direction from P1 to P, where point A is where the supply curve crosses, i.e. the number of units Kel-Tec can produce. And by the way, their profit margin on every unit sold would be significantly higher doing that without changing the number of units sold.

http://www.revisealevel.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Demand-Curve.png
https://i.stack.imgur.com/UBUfx.jpg

Thanks for attending today's lesson.

@zedsdeadbaby
@alaskanfire

Wow, first week lesson of Economics 101. -- and yet, you somehow missed the concept.

I don't think you get it. Actually, I am 100% positive you don't get it. -- oh I get it. You and Kel-Tec don't get it.

They do not want to decrease demand. They are happy with their pricing. -- so they're happy with pissing off potential customers. Got it. Smart move.

They couldn't care less if they aren't making enough guns for YOU to be happy. People who want their guns are going to buy them. -- how many times do I have to say it. I am one who wants their guns. There are a bunch of other people like me who want them and can't get them. Again, shitty attitude to have for long-term success.

They sell EVERY gun they make VERY quickly. -- that's what happens when demand vastly outweighs supply. They sell toilet paper and bottled water really quickly before a hurricane. Still doesn't mean what they're doing is smart business

They DO NOT want to expand in a manner where they will lose their ass to a new gun law. -- could have already expanded years ago. No ass lost. Low interest rates, demand was there for the product. Very low risk. Huge opportunity missed.

Kel Tec is run EXACTLY the way the owner wants to, and it is a very successful company. Its their corporate value and ethics. -- so you're basically making the point they are doing things poorly because they want to. And "very successful company" by what metric? Market share? Profit margin? Retained earnings? Keeping it's owner off welfare?

People like you can't even wrap your heads around why Chik-Fil-A is closed on Sunday. -- and yet they can still meet demand the other 6 days of the week.

I get it. You're butthurt I'm in here pointing out with BASIC ECONOMICS AND BUSINESS FINANCE 101 lessons that show how poorly Kel-Tec's decision making is. And yet, here you are essentially saying "they want it to be that way."

Posted: 1/15/2019 3:59:47 PM EST

[#32]

Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR.

Posted: 1/15/2019 4:38:19 PM EST

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR.

View Quote

That you'll likely never get your hands on.

I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time.

Posted: 1/15/2019 4:45:31 PM EST

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
That you'll likely never get your hands on.

I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR.

That you'll likely never get your hands on.

I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time.

Which gun do they make can’t you get ahold of.

Posted: 1/15/2019 4:53:54 PM EST

[#35]

I had to wait a year to get my PMR and my CMR.

Big fucking deal.

I didn't show up at my dealer on release day and just say fuck kel-tec when they weren't in stock

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:00:42 PM EST

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
Which gun do they make can't you get ahold of.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR.

That you'll likely never get your hands on.

I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time.

Which gun do they make can't you get ahold of.

What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last.

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:09:51 PM EST

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last.

View Quote

Magpul doesn't sell firearms. Bushmaster/Remington stuffed that one.

Glock, Sig and S&W haven't announced a "new" design in how long?
New calibers/finishes/night sights don't count.
The engineering/product planning for all of those brands is copy/paste. They also have more capital because they are larger and have (gasp) shareholders.

You want a bad launch? Look at Desert Tech with the MDR. Nothing KelTec has ever launced approaches that level of circus shenanigans. And that rifle costs twice as much as anything Keltec has ever produced.

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:25:58 PM EST

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR.

That you'll likely never get your hands on.

I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time.

Which gun do they make can't you get ahold of.

What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last.

If I really sat down I could actually make a pretty big list including all the big boys. They have all had similar incidents. One I remember vividly was the Ruger gold labels or just about anything made prior to the last decade
Barrett everything at one point or another
Desert Tech as mentioned
Taurus 500 s&w
Remington 105cti

Like I said I could sit down with a few industry people and make a list a mile long.

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:33:59 PM EST

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
Magpul doesn't sell firearms. Bushmaster/Remington stuffed that one.

Glock, Sig and S&W haven't announced a "new" design in how long?
New calibers/finishes/night sights don't count.
The engineering/product planning for all of those brands is copy/paste. They also have more capital because they are larger and have (gasp) shareholders.

You want a bad launch? Look at Desert Tech with the MDR. Nothing KelTec has ever launced approaches that level of circus shenanigans. And that rifle costs twice as much as anything Keltec has ever produced.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last.

Magpul doesn't sell firearms. Bushmaster/Remington stuffed that one.

Glock, Sig and S&W haven't announced a "new" design in how long?
New calibers/finishes/night sights don't count.
The engineering/product planning for all of those brands is copy/paste. They also have more capital because they are larger and have (gasp) shareholders.

You want a bad launch? Look at Desert Tech with the MDR. Nothing KelTec has ever launced approaches that level of circus shenanigans. And that rifle costs twice as much as anything Keltec has ever produced.

Also if you pay attention to their previous launches these two products should hit shelves fast.

The ksg, PMR/CMR, and rdb were slow to market. The gen2 sub 2k was not. Neither were the variations to the ksg. These two guns are based on existing technology and likely have shared parts with other models. I suspect they will be on shelves close to the projected timetable.

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:39:43 PM EST

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
That you'll likely never get your hands on.

I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR.

That you'll likely never get your hands on.

I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time.

If the reviews are good I'll get one. It's not that hard to get Keltec stuff. At first you pay above MSRP. Wait a bit for supply to catch up and you can find one if you look. I've never had an issue finding one if I was willing to pay market value. For me market value < MSRP generally so I wait a bit.

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:43:22 PM EST

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
If the reviews are good I'll get one. It's not that hard to get Keltec stuff. At first you pay above MSRP. Wait a bit for supply to catch up and you can find one if you look. I've never had an issue finding one if I was willing to pay market value. For me market value < MSRP generally so I wait a bit.

View Quote

Yep the CMR-30 I bought I found at sportsman warehouse for abound MSRP. It was literally less than a year after they started appearing "in the wild".

Not a long wait imo

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:53:23 PM EST

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yep the CMR-30 I bought I found at sportsman warehouse for abound MSRP. It was literally less than a year after they started appearing "in the wild".

Not a long wait imo

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Quoted:

Quoted:
If the reviews are good I'll get one. It's not that hard to get Keltec stuff. At first you pay above MSRP. Wait a bit for supply to catch up and you can find one if you look. I've never had an issue finding one if I was willing to pay market value. For me market value < MSRP generally so I wait a bit.

Yep the CMR-30 I bought I found at sportsman warehouse for abound MSRP. It was literally less than a year after they started appearing "in the wild".

Not a long wait imo

I've got one of those. I'm seriously pondering the idea of cutting it down to 10" or so. Sounds like about 90% of the velocity still and it would look/handle a lot better.

Posted: 1/15/2019 6:13:44 PM EST

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
Magpul doesn't sell firearms. Bushmaster/Remington stuffed that one.

Glock, Sig and S&W haven't announced a "new" design in how long?
New calibers/finishes/night sights don't count.
The engineering/product planning for all of those brands is copy/paste. They also have more capital because they are larger and have (gasp) shareholders.

You want a bad launch? Look at Desert Tech with the MDR. Nothing KelTec has ever launced approaches that level of circus shenanigans. And that rifle costs twice as much as anything Keltec has ever produced.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last.

Magpul doesn't sell firearms. Bushmaster/Remington stuffed that one.

Glock, Sig and S&W haven't announced a "new" design in how long?
New calibers/finishes/night sights don't count.
The engineering/product planning for all of those brands is copy/paste. They also have more capital because they are larger and have (gasp) shareholders.

You want a bad launch? Look at Desert Tech with the MDR. Nothing KelTec has ever launced approaches that level of circus shenanigans. And that rifle costs twice as much as anything Keltec has ever produced.

Didn't Glock launch the 42 and 43 within the last couple years? Those were radically different than previous offerings considering they were single stack.

Posted: 1/15/2019 6:14:57 PM EST

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:

If I really sat down I could actually make a pretty big list including all the big boys. They have all had similar incidents. One I remember vividly was the Ruger gold labels or just about anything made prior to the last decade
Barrett everything at one point or another
Desert Tech as mentioned
Taurus 500 s&w
Remington 105cti

Like I said I could sit down with a few industry people and make a list a mile long.

View Quote

And those companies should have received due criticism for fucking up product launches too.

Posted: 1/15/2019 6:17:33 PM EST

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
I get it. You're butthurt I'm in here pointing out with BASIC ECONOMICS AND BUSINESS FINANCE 101 lessons that show how poorly Kel-Tec's decision making is. And yet, here you are essentially saying "they want it to be that way."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/7797710-1x1-940x940.jpg

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
You both replied so I'll reply to both of you:

If they don't want to raise debt to expand, fine. That still leaves them with their pricing model being completely wrong with respect to the demand curve. They should raise their prices and decrease demand commensurate with what they can supply. Per the chart below, they should be moving the price in the other direction from P1 to P, where point A is where the supply curve crosses, i.e. the number of units Kel-Tec can produce. And by the way, their profit margin on every unit sold would be significantly higher doing that without changing the number of units sold.

http://www.revisealevel.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Demand-Curve.png
https://i.stack.imgur.com/UBUfx.jpg

Thanks for attending today's lesson.

@zedsdeadbaby
@alaskanfire

Wow, first week lesson of Economics 101. -- and yet, you somehow missed the concept.

I don't think you get it. Actually, I am 100% positive you don't get it. -- oh I get it. You and Kel-Tec don't get it.

They do not want to decrease demand. They are happy with their pricing. -- so they're happy with pissing off potential customers. Got it. Smart move.

They couldn't care less if they aren't making enough guns for YOU to be happy. People who want their guns are going to buy them. -- how many times do I have to say it. I am one who wants their guns. There are a bunch of other people like me who want them and can't get them. Again, shitty attitude to have for long-term success.

They sell EVERY gun they make VERY quickly. -- that's what happens when demand vastly outweighs supply. They sell toilet paper and bottled water really quickly before a hurricane. Still doesn't mean what they're doing is smart business

They DO NOT want to expand in a manner where they will lose their ass to a new gun law. -- could have already expanded years ago. No ass lost. Low interest rates, demand was there for the product. Very low risk. Huge opportunity missed.

Kel Tec is run EXACTLY the way the owner wants to, and it is a very successful company. Its their corporate value and ethics. -- so you're basically making the point they are doing things poorly because they want to. And "very successful company" by what metric? Market share? Profit margin? Retained earnings? Keeping it's owner off welfare?

People like you can't even wrap your heads around why Chik-Fil-A is closed on Sunday. -- and yet they can still meet demand the other 6 days of the week.

I get it. You're butthurt I'm in here pointing out with BASIC ECONOMICS AND BUSINESS FINANCE 101 lessons that show how poorly Kel-Tec's decision making is. And yet, here you are essentially saying "they want it to be that way."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/7797710-1x1-940x940.jpg

You have a business degree, and you think that kel tec doesn't have a successful business plan?

Laughable.

You clearly do not have a business degree. if you don't understand what side of the economy producers of goods are on.

The wealth side. They create wealth. Kel Tec successfully accomplishes that according to their established, controlled-growth model.

Its so simple that even someone without a business degree can get it, so what is your excuse?

They execute their plan according to their model in accordance with their corporate values.

You don't understand that, Mr. Business Degree?

Sounds like you have a BS in Business, but it isn't a degree.

Posted: 1/15/2019 6:35:33 PM EST

[#46]

Quote History

Quoted:
And those companies should have received due criticism for fucking up product launches too.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

If I really sat down I could actually make a pretty big list including all the big boys. They have all had similar incidents. One I remember vividly was the Ruger gold labels or just about anything made prior to the last decade
Barrett everything at one point or another
Desert Tech as mentioned
Taurus 500 s&w
Remington 105cti

Like I said I could sit down with a few industry people and make a list a mile long.

And those companies should have received due criticism for fucking up product launches too.

You were making it out like KelTec was alone in the way they delivered product and they are not. It’s been a while but I’m pretty sure either the 42 or 43 was all but unobtanium long after they announced it. While maybe not spread out I as long as KelTec Glock absolutely goes through huge dry spells as well but I don’t hear you commenting on their business model.

I forgot one of the best examples from my first list Springfield. I remember having dealers that did their stocking dealer program for 1911’s and still didn’t have all their product when the promo rolled around the next year. M1As were the same way.

You still haven’t answered my question about which gun you weren’t or aren’t able to get ahold of or was it just a made up premise?

Posted: 1/15/2019 6:36:36 PM EST

[#47]

Quote History

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The Sub2000's are a great example of that. I was interested in getting a Glock mag fed 9mm version a few years ago. I looked and looked and looked. The only one I ever saw in one of our LGS's was a .40 cal version with a $550 price tag. I passed because I wanted a 9mm. I came back about 2 weeks later and someone had bought it. I have yet to see an actual Gen 2 version.

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@Flysc check with 21:31 arms in Morris if that’s anywhere near you. They had some in stock around Christmas. 9mm glock mag versions.

Posted: 1/15/2019 6:38:09 PM EST

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:

I've got one of those. I'm seriously pondering the idea of cutting it down to 10" or so. Sounds like about 90% of the velocity still and it would look/handle a lot better.

View Quote

It really looks unbalanced as a full length rifle. SBR would be perfect. I wish they would do a pistol with a tailhook mod 1.

ETA pics of SBR (not mine)

Posted: 1/15/2019 6:40:41 PM EST

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:
Risk vs reward? Are they making enough profits for what they need? What's the risk if they do take on the debt? I can see if they see slow steady growth without debt w/ sufficient profit where they wouldn't follow your plan. Lots of gun companies go under that way. That leverage can kill you or force you out of your company when someone else gets it.

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Quoted:

Anyone can look on Google and see that Kel tec has a rotating production line. They do this so they can evenly produce enough numbers of their entire product line without gaps of years between them. They try to meet demand, but the fact is they don't have to. All their guns are going to sell.

Do you understand this basic fact? They run an extremely successful business regardless of whether or not you're not happy that you can't get their shit when you want it.

Impatient people like you are why Magpul no longer releases information about what they may be producing in the future. It's also why they don't post on this forum very often anymore. Many companies have followed this because of people like you on this forum.

Oh I'm so sorry for offending their sensibilities. Why is it that if I want a Glock 17, 19, 26 or whatever else model they're making, I can go just about anywhere and buy one brand new? How about S&W? Or Sig?

How is it that these other gun manufacturers can do it but Kel-Tec can't figure it out?

ETA: to address this idiotic argument and thinly veiled shot at me for being impatient - who gives a shit about what you define as extremely successful? If they're not meeting demand consistently, then they're missing out on potential revenue and it's pretty obvious it's A LOT of revenue they're missing. Also, it turns away a lot of potential customers as well if they want your product but can't get it. They move on and look elsewhere. Again, lost revenue. Yeah, great business decision.

Massive Police and military contracts is how other companies can do it. Not to mention most of those other companies produce other things as well. For example Glock mak grenades and knives, and all kinds of tools and military gadgets. Other companies also have signed production and contracts to fill for other companies for parts they don't have the capacity to produce.

Even Ruger has a lot of police and military contracts, and do metal casting for parts that aren't even related to guns for other companies.

Kel tecs entire market, nearly anyway, is civilian.

you could've at least use that huge brain of yours to figure that one out.

DeVry University business degrees aren't real business degrees.

That's hilarious. Didn't understand my sig line I see.

What do making knives and grenades have to do with producing plenty of brand new civilian handguns for sale? Yeah, not a damn thing. Bunch of people sound like Dave Ramsey acolytes with the "debt is bad in all circumstances, mmmkay!"

Debt is financial leverage. Kel-Tec royally fucked up by not taking on some good ol' fashioned leverage to expand production years ago. They could have already paid it off and be making profits in spades. Now they continue to produce what amounts to prototype firearms, most of which will never be seen out in the wild by the majority of people.

Risk vs reward? Are they making enough profits for what they need? What's the risk if they do take on the debt? I can see if they see slow steady growth without debt w/ sufficient profit where they wouldn't follow your plan. Lots of gun companies go under that way. That leverage can kill you or force you out of your company when someone else gets it.

LOL, people that say Kel-Tec should take on debt don't realize George Kelgren has had a handful gun companies go bankrupt due to over-expansion over his career. If KT can expand without loans (they are undeniably expanding, btw; a hundred RDBs on Gunbroker yet they are still backordered on parts since they are all allocated to assembled weapons being made as fast as they can) and not suffer for missing out on large-order contracts/deals either, that's an unkillable business model.

Posted: 1/15/2019 6:45:12 PM EST

[#50]

Quote History

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These guns (various models) get snapped up and re-sold when they are first released.

KSGs were going for 1800 on gun broker. Which, for the number of guns available, was the market price.

Keltec can grab that profit, or leave it to the speculators who get lucky for resale. Either way, the market price gets set by the market.

They can always drop the price once there are lots of them later. Nobody on the consumer side would know the difference, other than the profit goes to KT rather than some neckbeard.

It's a goddamn simple concept, charge more when there are only a few.

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I have a feeling that demand would drop off quickly as MSRP increased, based on the name on the side alone.
They are still trying to build a quality reputation.
If Kelgren is happy making the margins he is making, then who am I to complain? Yes, he could probably expand and bump production with more margin per unit up front, but
I could still buy what I want from them, it just takes some looking or patience on certain things.
I told my gun shop to order an RFB the day after they were announced, and one showed up a month or so later, sub 500 SN, sub $1400. I bought it.

As opposed to DesertTech, who handled their MDR launch completely differently and are still floundering to get out a serviceable rifle.

These guns (various models) get snapped up and re-sold when they are first released.

KSGs were going for 1800 on gun broker. Which, for the number of guns available, was the market price.

Keltec can grab that profit, or leave it to the speculators who get lucky for resale. Either way, the market price gets set by the market.

They can always drop the price once there are lots of them later. Nobody on the consumer side would know the difference, other than the profit goes to KT rather than some neckbeard.

It's a goddamn simple concept, charge more when there are only a few.

They'd be charging more early on, to their most rabid fans, and give them (statistically/realistically) the least reliable guns of the run. There's a "don't piss off your customers" flip side to the supply & demand thing; KT offloading the high-pricing negatives for the first couple dozen units out of thousands onto some Gunbroker assholes 1) ensures that the most rabid fanboys can get one early on due to the high price, 2) allows the price to settle back down to around whatever they were blowing them out to distributors for without looking like they are unable to move their product (lot of folks were wondering if the ARX160 was being discontinued when the price was dropped).

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Kel-Tec’s secret is out: The KS7 shotgun and CP33 pistol are here (Page 6 of 9)

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