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With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need... I do. It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops. Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales. |
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By the way, not a huge fan of the KSG, but that KS7 looks pretty awesome (size and weight of an MP5A2!) and if KelTec manages to get these on dealers' shelves in quantity and retailing at or under $400.00, they will do very well on them. Think of them as a Shockwave competitor. I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing... View Quote |
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Dealers aren't making shit for profit on the sale price of a vehicle. Apples to oranges. All the money in cars is in dealer/manufacturer financing. That's why they'll give you a better price if you agree to finance through them. Nobody is saying Kel-Tec should be playing follow the leader with neckbeards on GunBroker. We're saying they should do a little research before establishing their MSRP and what their dealer pricing is going to be based on what they're able to supply. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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It's not that simple. Remember that most of the guns are sold by dealers to the final customer. So when dealers have inventory on the shelves they purchased for $1000.00 wholesale, and then Kel-Tec drops the price to $800.00 (for example), the dealer takes a bath on that item in inventory and thinks twice before stocking any more Kel-Tec products. Nobody is saying Kel-Tec should be playing follow the leader with neckbeards on GunBroker. We're saying they should do a little research before establishing their MSRP and what their dealer pricing is going to be based on what they're able to supply. |
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Quoted: You have a business degree, and you think that kel tec doesn't have a successful business plan? Laughable. You clearly do not have a business degree. if you don't understand what side of the economy producers of goods are on. The wealth side. They create wealth. Kel Tec successfully accomplishes that according to their established, controlled-growth model. Its so simple that even someone without a business degree can get it, so what is your excuse? They execute their plan according to their model in accordance with their corporate values. You don't understand that, Mr. Business Degree? Sounds like you have a BS in Business, but it isn't a degree. View Quote They can do whatever they want. I am also free to point out where they can and should be doing better. If you set a business plan goal of 5% growth when 50% growth was easily attainable with little risk, that would be terrible goal setting. You grow, you create more jobs, and create more wealth for more people. So kind of silly for you to think I don't understand wealth creation. My point is they could have been creating more for more people all the while making more customers. It all goes hand in hand. |
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What would be a reasonable time frame for 'getting ahold of'? I'm totally fine with them not having a zillion units produced before release day. But it's been shown over and over again in this thread that lack of production, delays, etc. etc. have plagued almost every gun they've ever launched. The poster above me waited a year before getting 2 different guns from them. Would that kind of delay in availability fly if we were talking about Glock, Sig, or S&W? Magpul got justifiably hammered on the ACR debacle and that was their first foray into firearm manufacturing and correct me if I'm wrong, their last. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR. I'm all about this new plinker! Just being realistic about my chances of owning one and pointing how how Kel-Tec could rectify the issue through standard, proven, sound business principles relied upon for a very long time. |
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You were making it out like KelTec was alone in the way they delivered product and they are not. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure either the 42 or 43 was all but unobtanium long after they announced it. While maybe not spread out I as long as KelTec Glock absolutely goes through huge dry spells as well but I don't hear you commenting on their business model. I forgot one of the best examples from my first list Springfield. I remember having dealers that did their stocking dealer program for 1911's and still didn't have all their product when the promo rolled around the next year. M1As were the same way. You still haven't answered my question about which gun you weren't or aren't able to get ahold of or was it just a made up premise? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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If I really sat down I could actually make a pretty big list including all the big boys. They have all had similar incidents. One I remember vividly was the Ruger gold labels or just about anything made prior to the last decade Barrett everything at one point or another Desert Tech as mentioned Taurus 500 s&w Remington 105cti Like I said I could sit down with a few industry people and make a list a mile long. I forgot one of the best examples from my first list Springfield. I remember having dealers that did their stocking dealer program for 1911's and still didn't have all their product when the promo rolled around the next year. M1As were the same way. You still haven't answered my question about which gun you weren't or aren't able to get ahold of or was it just a made up premise? |
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Quoted: So, you'd rather their products be true vapor ware, completely unavailable & not for sale, until they have a full 10,000 unit production run crated up for distributors, likely adding 6mos-1yr to the release timeline? Because that's how the big companies do it. For a company like KT known for teething pains, I should think that scenario would be downright terrifying, and could possibly sink entire product lines (Remington R51, *cough-cough*). Great way to piss off distributors as well, when early guns with problems start sitting on their shelves not moving, unless they go to the trouble of a full-scale recall. User 'beta testing' is arguably a more ethical way of getting product onto market, even if it doesn't lend you a halo of "perfect competent badassness" --if that's a foregone conclusion regardless due to your price point & production choices, it's madness to proceed otherwise. View Quote |
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Gives me hope there will be an RDB "arm pistol." It is *JUST* under 13.5" from the trigger shoe to the rear of the receiver when no buttpad is mounted. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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By the way, not a huge fan of the KSG, but that KS7 looks pretty awesome (size and weight of an MP5A2!) and if KelTec manages to get these on dealers' shelves in quantity and retailing at or under $400.00, they will do very well on them. Think of them as a Shockwave competitor. I'm a little surprised there isn't an obvious way to mount an optic, but there may be something I'm not seeing... |
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https://i.imgur.com/RG0BS1U.gif So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: LOL, people that say Kel-Tec should take on debt don't realize George Kelgren has had a handful gun companies go bankrupt due to over-expansion over his career. If KT can expand without loans (they are undeniably expanding, btw; a hundred RDBs on Gunbroker yet they are still backordered on parts since they are all allocated to assembled weapons being made as fast as they can) and not suffer for missing out on large-order contracts/deals either, that's an unkillable business model. So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research. |
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CP33 looks neat. Too bad this is kel-tec we're talking about.
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I would say you'd see all but the major players go kaput. Glock, S&W, Sig, etc. would stick around due to .gov/LEO contracts but they'd still have to cut way back and sell off a lot of assets to downsize. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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My interest is in their long-term success because I'd like to own more of their guns. Some people get their jimmies rustled when you tell it like it is but blowing sunshine up a company's ass doesn't get anyone anywhere. |
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With Kel-Tec's popularity over the last decade coupled with low interest rates, they missed the boat on growing and providing much more of their sought after products to willing customers. If you grew when you had the opportunity, struck while the iron was hot if you will, you had the opportunity to pay off the debt make some significant retained earnings for future expansion (if desired), more money to stakeholders in the interim, and if it goes tits up down the road at some point as is possible with anything, at least you stacked the cash high when you could. Guns get banned, Kel-Tec goes under and their major stakeholders end up with giant nest eggs. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need... I do. It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops. Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales. |
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Can you guys stop arguing economics and get back to appreciating the fact keltec is making a QUAD STACK .22LR. View Quote |
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It really looks unbalanced as a full length rifle. SBR would be perfect. I wish they would do a pistol with a tailhook mod 1. ETA pics of SBR (not mine) https://i.redd.it/ytukka4sv2f11.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I've got one of those. I'm seriously pondering the idea of cutting it down to 10" or so. Sounds like about 90% of the velocity still and it would look/handle a lot better. ETA pics of SBR (not mine) https://i.redd.it/ytukka4sv2f11.jpg |
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I took an entrepreneurship class at WSU at one point. They had a bunch of the local guys who have made it big. George Ablah, at least one of the Carney brothers (Pizza Hut), George Ablah and some others IIRC. The one thing I got from most of them was they have almost all crashed and gone bankrupt multiple times. It's part of the game. What sets them apart is starting something new, trying again, and managing the risk to the level they can handle. It sounds to me like Kel-tec has hit that point. Steady consistent growth sounds good to me. We've been seeing a lot of gun companies who were doing "safe" growth as everything was hot who discovered it really wasn't safe. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Quoted: LOL, people that say Kel-Tec should take on debt don't realize George Kelgren has had a handful gun companies go bankrupt due to over-expansion over his career. If KT can expand without loans (they are undeniably expanding, btw; a hundred RDBs on Gunbroker yet they are still backordered on parts since they are all allocated to assembled weapons being made as fast as they can) and not suffer for missing out on large-order contracts/deals either, that's an unkillable business model. So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research. |
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You seem inordinately absorbed with how Mr. Kel-tec runs his private, successful (and increasingly growing) company. You get fired from there or work for a competitor? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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If it all came crashing down via outright ban, it's all fucked anyway whether you're small or large. The only way you survive in that scenario is supplying to .gov. And if you didn't take the opportunity to GROW, you won't be winning any .gov contracts because you can't supply what they need... I do. It's different when you're all in with no shareholders to help absorb any drops. Our owner doesn't take out loans if he can help it, and it's worked out pretty well for everyone so far, 4 divisions, ~150M annual sales. No I've never worked in the firearms industry. Apparently some people can't disengage their fanboydom long enough to understand some healthy criticism. They go into full white knight mode. |
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Cherry picking drive-by. Go back and quote the whole tree.
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Oh please GTFO of here. You better be a John fucking Browning, a Rockefeller or Warren mothefriking Buffet. If it is so easy and obvious why the fuck all these gun companies fail including those backed by large Capital Investments fail? He may not be doing it how YOU want it but don't come here and preach he's a failure. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'm sorry Sir White Knight! Argument from authority much? I don't have to be John Browning to level legitimate criticisms regarding business decisions. View Quote Do you have anything else productive to contribute besides complaining about how you would do it differently? |
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That guy's also forgetting (maybe doesn't even know) that we've been in a firearms Golden Age for over 15 years, unprecedented since perhaps John Browning's time of mass-industrialization in the US. Planning a business model around that, especially after living through the 80s & 90s, is monumentally stupid. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Quoted: LOL, people that say Kel-Tec should take on debt don't realize George Kelgren has had a handful gun companies go bankrupt due to over-expansion over his career. If KT can expand without loans (they are undeniably expanding, btw; a hundred RDBs on Gunbroker yet they are still backordered on parts since they are all allocated to assembled weapons being made as fast as they can) and not suffer for missing out on large-order contracts/deals either, that's an unkillable business model. So you just made my point. The guy doesn't really have a great track record. And you said it yourself, OVER-EXPANSION. That's piss poor planning/market research. |
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Strike while the iron is hot -- which means to take an advantage of an opportunity as soon as it exists. It's monumentally stupid to let that 15 year window pass you by without gettin' while the gettin's good. Nobody has refuted any of the legitimate criticisms I've laid down like their pricing model being out of whack with their supply curve. The only thing they can come up with is "well they have their guns priced where they want them to be priced! Derpty derp!" View Quote |
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I like Keltec (the company) for it's true innovations and I have always really liked the one Keltec I own, a P3AT, but you about hit the nail square on the head. Cracked up reading what you did there. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Pretty ugly. But at least they'll only build 4 of them. Introduced at SHOT 2019: Shipping Q3 '19. Two will go out to YouTubers in July. One of these will end up in Recoil in August. October 2019: Shipping Q1 '20. Three examples will go out to internet bloggers December '19. SHOT 2020: Shipping Q4 2020 Nothing is said until SHOT 2021... Then: Shipping Q2 '21 Seven show up on Gunbroker around November for preorder at twice MSRP. Only one will ever be delivered. Nothing is mentioned at SHOT 2022. Press release goes out in May 2022 that they are shipping, finally. Nine will go out to dealers in Twin Falls, Idaho; Reno, Nevada; some place in the panhandle of Florida and there's a rumor one was spotted in Ohio. SHOT 2023: They're being pimped again with KelTec reps swearing that the "bugs have been worked out and they're ready to ship Q2 of 2023!" They quietly disappear from the website in September 2023. |
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In hindsight, maybe it would have been good. With the way the firearms industry goes hot/cold you're betting your company when you expand to quickly. You also run into more QC issues w/ fast growth. It's been mentioned that one issue w/ playing games w/ prices is dealers getting stuck w/ product they can't move when you drop it. That's a good way to get them to stop selling it. It's obvious you're less worried about risk (with someone else's money/company) than they are. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Strike while the iron is hot -- which means to take an advantage of an opportunity as soon as it exists. It's monumentally stupid to let that 15 year window pass you by without gettin' while the gettin's good. Nobody has refuted any of the legitimate criticisms I've laid down like their pricing model being out of whack with their supply curve. The only thing they can come up with is "well they have their guns priced where they want them to be priced! Derpty derp!" |
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We get it, you would do it differently. Do you have anything else productive to contribute besides complaining about how you would do it differently? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'm sorry Sir White Knight! Argument from authority much? I don't have to be John Browning to level legitimate criticisms regarding business decisions. Do you have anything else productive to contribute besides complaining about how you would do it differently? |
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I'm sorry Sir White Knight! Argument from authority much? I don't have to be John Browning to level legitimate criticisms regarding business decisions. Do you have anything else productive to contribute besides complaining about how you would do it differently? |
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Well the PMR-30 appears to be available in a few select places (none that I've ever bought from anyway) now but it's been out for how long? I had to wait forever to find a Sub 2k and was still only able to get in the Glock 19 grip instead of the 17. Others have obviously reported the KSG unobtainium but I understand that thing had performance issues anyways so it wasn't on my list. As far as I know the only gun they made that ever had decent availability was the PF-9. I'm not dogging on their products (KSG notwithstanding). They make good stuff. Sure you can find anecdotal examples from other manufacturers but they don't happen with the regularity it happens with Kel-Tec. Sure, the new Glocks are hard to get right at launch just like people camp out overnight for the new iPhones. I said earlier I can understand lack of availability around launch time. But when years go by and the trickle of product that comes out doesn't come close to meeting demand, it's a problem. I shouldn't have to get lucky to actually find one in stock somewhere or have to pay some idiot neckbeard 5x the price on GunBroker. I'd rather Kel-Tec fetch a better price. View Quote |
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I don't give a fuck about the haters.
My sub 2000 has run reliably out of the box since the day I bought it. One of the coolest guns I own. . . and of course I paid a $100 premium to get it early, but I think it was worth it. Not into the shotgun, but i'd buy that pistol if the price tag comes in around 500 |
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It must be your local area, because just yesterday I saw a PMR-30, CMR-30, KSG, and two Sub-2000s. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Well the PMR-30 appears to be available in a few select places (none that I've ever bought from anyway) now but it's been out for how long? I had to wait forever to find a Sub 2k and was still only able to get in the Glock 19 grip instead of the 17. Others have obviously reported the KSG unobtainium but I understand that thing had performance issues anyways so it wasn't on my list. As far as I know the only gun they made that ever had decent availability was the PF-9. I'm not dogging on their products (KSG notwithstanding). They make good stuff. Sure you can find anecdotal examples from other manufacturers but they don't happen with the regularity it happens with Kel-Tec. Sure, the new Glocks are hard to get right at launch just like people camp out overnight for the new iPhones. I said earlier I can understand lack of availability around launch time. But when years go by and the trickle of product that comes out doesn't come close to meeting demand, it's a problem. I shouldn't have to get lucky to actually find one in stock somewhere or have to pay some idiot neckbeard 5x the price on GunBroker. I'd rather Kel-Tec fetch a better price. If someone wanted either of those models in the past year, they could have had them with minimal looking. |
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Here's the KelTec way: Introduced at SHOT 2019: Shipping Q3 '19. Two will go out to YouTubers in July. One of these will end up in Recoil in August. October 2019: Shipping Q1 '20. Three examples will go out to internet bloggers December '19. SHOT 2020: Shipping Q4 2020 Nothing is said until SHOT 2021... Then: Shipping Q2 '21 Seven show up on Gunbroker around November for preorder at twice MSRP. Only one will ever be delivered. Nothing is mentioned at SHOT 2022. Press release goes out in May 2022 that they are shipping, finally. Nine will go out to dealers in Twin Falls, Idaho; Reno, Nevada; some place in the panhandle of Florida and there's a rumor one was spotted in Ohio. SHOT 2023: They're being pimped again with KelTec reps swearing that the "bugs have been worked out and they're ready to ship Q2 of 2023!" They quietly disappear from the website in September 2023. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Pretty ugly. But at least they'll only build 4 of them. Introduced at SHOT 2019: Shipping Q3 '19. Two will go out to YouTubers in July. One of these will end up in Recoil in August. October 2019: Shipping Q1 '20. Three examples will go out to internet bloggers December '19. SHOT 2020: Shipping Q4 2020 Nothing is said until SHOT 2021... Then: Shipping Q2 '21 Seven show up on Gunbroker around November for preorder at twice MSRP. Only one will ever be delivered. Nothing is mentioned at SHOT 2022. Press release goes out in May 2022 that they are shipping, finally. Nine will go out to dealers in Twin Falls, Idaho; Reno, Nevada; some place in the panhandle of Florida and there's a rumor one was spotted in Ohio. SHOT 2023: They're being pimped again with KelTec reps swearing that the "bugs have been worked out and they're ready to ship Q2 of 2023!" They quietly disappear from the website in September 2023. |
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It's .22lr and 30rd mags It looks like just a .22lr version of the PMR30 View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Im buying that CP33 as soon as i can get one. View Quote Lyrics In the year 2525, if man is still alive If woman can survive, they may find In the year 3535 Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lie Everything you think, do and say Is in the pill you took today In the year 4545 You ain't gonna need your teeth, won't need your eyes You won't find a thing to chew Nobody's gonna look at you In the year 5555 Your arms hangin' limp at your sides Your legs got nothin' to do Some machine's doin' that for you In the year 6565 You won't need no husband, won't need no wife You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too From the bottom of a long glass tube In the year 7510 If God's a coming, He oughta make it by then Maybe He'll look around Himself and say Guess it's time for the judgment day In the year 8510 God is gonna shake His mighty head He'll either say I'm pleased where man has been Or tear it down, and start again In the year 9595 I'm kinda wonderin' if man is gonna be alive He's taken everything this old earth can give And he ain't put back nothing Now it's been ten thousand years Man has cried a billion tears For what, he never knew, now man's reign is through But through eternal night, the twinkling of starlight So very far away, maybe it's only yesterday In the year 2525, if man is still alive If woman can survive, they may find |
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oh good, thats finally coming out! obamma kinda ruined 22lr for me though.... if ammo was 2.5 cents again... or a bit more (2019 dollars) (it probably is, im just mad bro) View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So what caliber is the CP33? 22LR or 22mag? Didint see it listed. If 22LR they have my attention. It looks like just a .22lr version of the PMR30 I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep. |
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This in bold. Anyone remember the ramline, short double stack 30rd 10/22 mags? I do, they didn't feed for shit! Making a quad stack magazine that reliably feeds 22lr will take some voodoo magic that no other manufacture has mastered... View Quote |
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I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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So what caliber is the CP33? 22LR or 22mag? Didint see it listed. If 22LR they have my attention. It looks like just a .22lr version of the PMR30 I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep. |
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I've seen PSA selling PMR's and Sub 2000's for extended periods of time. If someone wanted either of those models in the past year, they could have had them with minimal looking. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Well the PMR-30 appears to be available in a few select places (none that I've ever bought from anyway) now but it's been out for how long? I had to wait forever to find a Sub 2k and was still only able to get in the Glock 19 grip instead of the 17. Others have obviously reported the KSG unobtainium but I understand that thing had performance issues anyways so it wasn't on my list. As far as I know the only gun they made that ever had decent availability was the PF-9. I'm not dogging on their products (KSG notwithstanding). They make good stuff. Sure you can find anecdotal examples from other manufacturers but they don't happen with the regularity it happens with Kel-Tec. Sure, the new Glocks are hard to get right at launch just like people camp out overnight for the new iPhones. I said earlier I can understand lack of availability around launch time. But when years go by and the trickle of product that comes out doesn't come close to meeting demand, it's a problem. I shouldn't have to get lucky to actually find one in stock somewhere or have to pay some idiot neckbeard 5x the price on GunBroker. I'd rather Kel-Tec fetch a better price. If someone wanted either of those models in the past year, they could have had them with minimal looking. |
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The Econ/biz-running debate has made this thread totally suck.
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Quoted: I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep. View Quote Quoted:
The Econ/biz-running debate has made this thread totally suck. View Quote |
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Where the hell did you find that? Don’t think I’ve seen it sub 4 cents. It was done till you ran your keyboard View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: I bought a case of CCI minimags for less than 2.5cpr. Plenty of 22 available, stack it deep. Quoted:
The Econ/biz-running debate has made this thread totally suck. |
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