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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:35:37 PM EDT
[#1]
The mental gymnastics to justify not using a RDS and/or a light blow my mind. This must have been what this site would have been like in the early 90’s when rifle red dots were first coming into vogue.
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:40:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If nothing else, an RDS will exaggerate out how good or not good of a pistol shooter a person is. It's not a shortcut to anything, in my opinion. Every flinch, pull, jerk or squeeze will be literally on display right there in front of you, impossible to not notice. You will definitely know when you have exceeded your speed limit. Yes. And it shows you exactly what you are doing wrong. Then you can make corrections. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:42:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, what?  Agreed, that number is laughable for being "a lot" for anybody remotely into serious shooting. I was shooting 10k+ per year when I was really into USPSA, and that was still just as a hobby. ETA: Also, as you correctly point out, the whole "it will take a long time to retrain" is indeed complete bullshit. It took me an insignificant amount of time to adapt to dots. I also swap back and forth between dots and irons with zero issues. My experience, so obviously it will vary. My “retraining” consisted of an afternoon of dry firing every once in a while. Then next day I went and shot. “Wow, neat. I should have done this sooner” End of 40 year long and 2 million round retraining story. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:44:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Buy whatever you like. Don't have a red dot pistol but plan on it. Wow, you posted something that's actually on point. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:48:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Serious question: Do you shoot competitively? Because I know scores of shooters who are faster and more accurate with a MRDS across a spectrum of skill levels even at seven yards. In fact, I am one of them. I was when I was a B-Class and I still am as a GM. It may only be a consistent quarter to a half second on a drill and it may just be less Charlie’s over the course of a training evolution, but the difference is there. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Where he is off the mark is where he is making the politically correct statement "everyone should try them." Few people are very well served by plunking $300 - $500 into electronics that are going to sit atop a CCW piece. Red dots on pistols and red dots on rifles are two totally different animals, and folks who try to argue otherwise clearly don't have much time on either platform. Rifles have 2+ points of contact, much better eye relief, and single points of aim (dots) work exceptionally well when you are dealing with a trajectory that allows for +/- 3" from 0 to about 225 yards. I have yet to see any shooter, pro or otherwise, who is faster, consistently, 7 yards and in, with a red dot on a pistol. Nearly every shooter I've seen is MUCH more accurate with a dot from 10+ yards out, and most are faster as well, many significantly so. That is different from rifles, where a dot is often faster at ALL distances. Dots also make it much easier to train new/low roundcount shooters. That fact alone is likely driving the massive adoption by LE and MIL. But for most folks, in the CCW arena, they are a liability, despite the wild claims from the keyboard commando crowd. So for me, it really comes down to what I expect to do with a handgun, and what distances I reasonably expect to be engaging things. Serious question: Do you shoot competitively? Because I know scores of shooters who are faster and more accurate with a MRDS across a spectrum of skill levels even at seven yards. In fact, I am one of them. I was when I was a B-Class and I still am as a GM. It may only be a consistent quarter to a half second on a drill and it may just be less Charlie’s over the course of a training evolution, but the difference is there. Just out of curiosity. What ranking were you when you started to use optics and when you switched what division did it bring you up to? |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:49:51 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, what? Agreed, that number is laughable for being "a lot" for anybody remotely into serious shooting. I was shooting 10k+ per year when I was really into USPSA, and that was still just as a hobby. ETA: Also, as you correctly point out, the whole "it will take a long time to retrain" is indeed complete bullshit. It took me an insignificant amount of time to adapt to dots. I also swap back and forth between dots and irons with zero issues. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As an aside, I was a little surprised with his statement about “I’ve put a LOT of rounds through these guns” that he’s owned in some cases for years. Come to find out it’s about 20k rounds for all of them. I don’t really consider that a lot of someone who’s entire life revolves around shooting or even a serious hobbyist. Wait, what? Agreed, that number is laughable for being "a lot" for anybody remotely into serious shooting. I was shooting 10k+ per year when I was really into USPSA, and that was still just as a hobby. ETA: Also, as you correctly point out, the whole "it will take a long time to retrain" is indeed complete bullshit. It took me an insignificant amount of time to adapt to dots. I also swap back and forth between dots and irons with zero issues. Yeah. I'm not a great shooter, but I'm better than average, my round count is well over 20k and I use dots. 
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:52:53 PM EDT
[#7]
I don't feel like they add anything in close combat situations of 7 yards or in.
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:53:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Fuddsplaining why red dots are bad.
I couldn't take too much of that... When he decried how you have a big problem with red dots after the initial shot because you would then have to re-aquire the dot, I lol'd. So this phenomenon doesn't happen with irons? Right. There is nothing new in that video. "Muh irons are just as gud for self defense range" is derp. Sure 1-7, or 1-10 yards as he said, is the average for self defense. Why not be better-prepared in the event your scenario is not the average? I mean fuck we just had the good Samaritan with a major win at the mall. Not gonna comment on the rest. It's been done befo. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:54:42 PM EDT
[#9]
It's going to be funny when cheap pistols with cheap red dots become super widespread and people new to guns start with the dot. And never shoot iron sights. It's going to happen.
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:55:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just out of curiosity. What ranking were you when you started to use optics and when you switched what division did it bring you up to? It doesn't work that way. Classification in USPSA and IPSC is done per division. Divisions limit the use of optics, specifically for the reason that they offer a huge advantage. You don't get to take a score achieved with an Open gun and use it to get a Limited classification. But what you can do is look at raw scores in big matches, or even your own scores across divisions. That will show the clear edge that optics divisions have over irons divisions. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:56:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I shot my first MRDS handgun on Wednesday, as a part of the training curriculum for my new agency. I did 800+ draws on Wednesday, 300+ on Thursday, and a handful on Friday. With that amount of training, I can say, without a doubt, that I am MUCH faster with the red dot, from 15 yards and in. I am more accurate with iron sights. If you wanted me to shoot a quarter at 7 yards with no timer, I would take my iron sighted Glocks. If you put me on a timer and demanded A-zone hits, I am far faster with a red dot. I can officially say that for self defense, I co sider the red dot a game changer. It really should be considered cheating Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Serious question: Do you shoot competitively? Because I know scores of shooters who are faster and more accurate with a MRDS across a spectrum of skill levels even at seven yards. In fact, I am one of them. I was when I was a B-Class and I still am as a GM. It may only be a consistent quarter to a half second on a drill and it may just be less Charlie's over the course of a training evolution, but the difference is there. I am more accurate with iron sights. If you wanted me to shoot a quarter at 7 yards with no timer, I would take my iron sighted Glocks. If you put me on a timer and demanded A-zone hits, I am far faster with a red dot. I can officially say that for self defense, I co sider the red dot a game changer. It really should be considered cheating Can you post the times you got with irons vs the rds? I don't keep asking for times to be obtuse or a douche but to see the difference. When I shoot mrds on pistols I don't search for the dot on presentation but I'm still not breaking 1 second draws or 2 second bill drills. My splits times aren't any faster and my accuracy isn't any better untill I go farther than 25 yards. I'll do the black belt standard drill here and there and with irons I'm still getting the a zone at 25 yards between 1.6-1.8. the best I've gotten with a mrds is a 1.57. that's only 0.03 seconds faster than my best time with irons. That's not a game changer. It's just not a significant difference. As soon as my eyes can't see the sights I'll bite the bullet. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:57:07 PM EDT
[#12]
when is having options ever a bad thing?
we live in a society where people are used to charging their cell phones and laptops daily. When the next phase of red dot comes out with a usb charging port hopefully the fear of "what if the battery is dead" fades away. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:58:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's going to be funny when cheap pistols with cheap red dots become super widespread and people new to guns start with the dot. And never shoot iron sights. It's going to happen. It will never be the majority. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 9:59:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The answer for me is no. I watched the video and agree with him pretty much. Simplicity and not having a “bucket” on my hip (lmao) are pretty much my main reasons. Bucket? I don’t understand this comment. There’s very little difference between a holster for an iron sighted pistol and one with a dot. In fact in some cases they’re identical. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:00:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Starting from scratch I absolutely think it’s easier to go straight to an optic. Optic to irons is much easier than irons to optics. All of the work that you have to do to snap in with an optic directly translates to irons in a big way. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I watched it from beginning to end. He has some points... At close range, say 10 yards, a red dot may not be any better for self defense. A newbie in the field starting out with red dots instead of irons might have a better job acclimating to the red dot. Starting from scratch I absolutely think it’s easier to go straight to an optic. Optic to irons is much easier than irons to optics. All of the work that you have to do to snap in with an optic directly translates to irons in a big way. RON once posted that Marines qual higher with the acog and if they switch to irons they still qualify with higher scores than were seen before after learning to shoot with an acog. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:01:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Iron sights cant lighten up. RDS can. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lighten up.  Iron sights cant lighten up. RDS can. You've never heard of tritium? |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:01:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It will never be the majority. People probably said that about AR's. But I think it will.  Cheap, unobtrusive, light weight, and most importantly, cool. It'll be as widespread as cheap AR's with cheap Sig/Holosun red dots. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:01:40 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's going to be funny when cheap pistols with cheap red dots become super widespread and people new to guns start with the dot. And never shoot iron sights. It's going to happen. 
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:01:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you post the times you got with irons vs the rds? I don't keep asking for times to be obtuse or a douche but to see the difference. When I shoot mrds on pistols I don't search for the dot on presentation but I'm still not breaking 1 second draws or 2 second bill drills. My splits times aren't any faster and my accuracy isn't any better untill I go farther than 25 yards. I'll do the black belt standard drill here and there and with irons I'm still getting the a zone at 25 yards between 1.6-1.8. the best I've gotten with a mrds is a 1.57. that's only 0.03 seconds faster than my best time with irons. That's not a game changer. It's just not a significant difference. As soon as my eyes can't see the sights I'll bite the bullet. Are you only running basic drills, or actual courses of fire? The difference between dots and irons for simple close-in drills is indeed fairly minimal. The other 'fixed' aspects - like draw time - tend to dominate the overall time in such situations. If you get the same time for irons and dots running a 20-30 round run-and-gun course of fire, I will be very surprised. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:03:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryYep. It'll keep gaining popularity until it's basically the norm. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:04:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just out of curiosity. What ranking were you when you started to use optics and when you switched what division did it bring you up to? In USPSA was an A-Class Production and Limited when I started shooting Carry Optics. IDPA SSP/ESP MA. Classed up faster in CO, pretty much stopped shooting irons divisions and would only go back to Limited or Production every now and then to shoot classifiers but found I was just shooting irons far better with less time behind them. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:05:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesn't work that way. Classification in USPSA and IPSC is done per division. Divisions limit the use of optics, specifically for the reason that they offer a huge advantage. You don't get to take a score achieved with an Open gun and use it to get a Limited classification. But what you can do is look at raw scores in big matches, or even your own scores across divisions. That will show the clear edge that optics divisions have over irons divisions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just out of curiosity. What ranking were you when you started to use optics and when you switched what division did it bring you up to? It doesn't work that way. Classification in USPSA and IPSC is done per division. Divisions limit the use of optics, specifically for the reason that they offer a huge advantage. You don't get to take a score achieved with an Open gun and use it to get a Limited classification. But what you can do is look at raw scores in big matches, or even your own scores across divisions. That will show the clear edge that optics divisions have over irons divisions. You're right, I typed that wrong. "What division did it bring you up to" makes no sense. I meant ranking. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:06:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bucket? I don’t understand this comment. There’s very little difference between a holster for an iron sighted pistol and one with a dot. In fact in some cases they’re identical. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The answer for me is no. I watched the video and agree with him pretty much. Simplicity and not having a “bucket” on my hip (lmao) are pretty much my main reasons. Bucket? I don’t understand this comment. There’s very little difference between a holster for an iron sighted pistol and one with a dot. In fact in some cases they’re identical. Or actually smaller because of the rds cutout |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:07:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. It'll keep gaining popularity until it's basically the norm. Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. It'll keep gaining popularity until it's basically the norm. I changed the picture with a screen shot instead to show the price. I mean $369 for the gun and red dot? Not bad for a red dot starter gun to see if you like it. The whole thing is cheaper than just a Trijicon RMR 
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:09:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are great for long range shooting. I shoot steel at 100yds +. Up close and fast I like regular sights. Man I appreciate seeing this post…I still consider myself new to red dots on pistols, and thus, I don’t know if my observations are common amongst RDS shooters, or if it’s just me. Thus far, my opinion is that shooting for precision is more difficult for me than using my irons. As far as up close goes, I’m prolly not running my sights anyway, so that point is relatively moot. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:10:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you only running basic drills, or actual courses of fire? The difference between dots and irons for simple close-in drills is indeed fairly minimal. The other 'fixed' aspects - like draw time - tend to dominate the overall time in such situations. If you get the same time for irons and dots running a 20-30 round run-and-gun course of fire, I will be very surprised. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Can you post the times you got with irons vs the rds? I don't keep asking for times to be obtuse or a douche but to see the difference. When I shoot mrds on pistols I don't search for the dot on presentation but I'm still not breaking 1 second draws or 2 second bill drills. My splits times aren't any faster and my accuracy isn't any better untill I go farther than 25 yards. I'll do the black belt standard drill here and there and with irons I'm still getting the a zone at 25 yards between 1.6-1.8. the best I've gotten with a mrds is a 1.57. that's only 0.03 seconds faster than my best time with irons. That's not a game changer. It's just not a significant difference. As soon as my eyes can't see the sights I'll bite the bullet. Are you only running basic drills, or actual courses of fire? The difference between dots and irons for simple close-in drills is indeed fairly minimal. The other 'fixed' aspects - like draw time - tend to dominate the overall time in such situations. If you get the same time for irons and dots running a 20-30 round run-and-gun course of fire, I will be very surprised. I'm talking both. When I've done the same course of fire it's pretty minimal and flubbed reloads or other mistakes are far more important. People keep saying it's a game changer, I'm so much faster, etc but they're not shower how much faster. I used to shoot with mrds a lot and only occasionally so now. I'm certainly not anti mrds, quite the opposite. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:12:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you post the times you got with irons vs the rds? I don't keep asking for times to be obtuse or a douche but to see the difference. When I shoot mrds on pistols I don't search for the dot on presentation but I'm still not breaking 1 second draws or 2 second bill drills. My splits times aren't any faster and my accuracy isn't any better untill I go farther than 25 yards. I'll do the black belt standard drill here and there and with irons I'm still getting the a zone at 25 yards between 1.6-1.8. the best I've gotten with a mrds is a 1.57. that's only 0.03 seconds faster than my best time with irons. That's not a game changer. It's just not a significant difference. As soon as my eyes can't see the sights I'll bite the bullet. Again, if you asked me to shoot a quarter 10 times at 7 yards with no time limit, I'd would choose iron sights every day. But I have been handed a gun that I do not prefer (Glock 45) with a sighting system with which I've had no experience (RDS), and over the vast majority of drills, I've performed faster to such a degree that I can feel it without the shot timer. I do intend to add the shot timer into the mix soon, however |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:13:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In USPSA was an A-Class Production and Limited when I started shooting Carry Optics. IDPA SSP/ESP MA. Classed up faster in CO, pretty much stopped shooting irons divisions and would only go back to Limited or Production every now and then to shoot classifiers but found I was just shooting irons far better with less time behind them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just out of curiosity. What ranking were you when you started to use optics and when you switched what division did it bring you up to? In USPSA was an A-Class Production and Limited when I started shooting Carry Optics. IDPA SSP/ESP MA. Classed up faster in CO, pretty much stopped shooting irons divisions and would only go back to Limited or Production every now and then to shoot classifiers but found I was just shooting irons far better with less time behind them. So you went from a A class shooter to an A class shooter. Then as you shot more you got better? Then as even more time progressed and you shot more you went back to irons and you had progressed. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:19:33 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, I wasn't running a timer, because it's for work. I just know that after making some adjustments to my stance and draw, to accommodate and work with the red dot, I was noticeably faster for common drills. Again, if you asked me to shoot a quarter 10 times at 7 yards with no time limit, I'd would choose iron sights every day. But I have been handed a gun that I do not prefer (Glock 45) with a sighting system with which I've had no experience (RDS), and over the vast majority of drills, I've performed faster to such a degree that I can feel it without the shot timer. I do intend to add the shot timer into the mix soon, however Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Can you post the times you got with irons vs the rds? I don't keep asking for times to be obtuse or a douche but to see the difference. When I shoot mrds on pistols I don't search for the dot on presentation but I'm still not breaking 1 second draws or 2 second bill drills. My splits times aren't any faster and my accuracy isn't any better untill I go farther than 25 yards. I'll do the black belt standard drill here and there and with irons I'm still getting the a zone at 25 yards between 1.6-1.8. the best I've gotten with a mrds is a 1.57. that's only 0.03 seconds faster than my best time with irons. That's not a game changer. It's just not a significant difference. As soon as my eyes can't see the sights I'll bite the bullet. Again, if you asked me to shoot a quarter 10 times at 7 yards with no time limit, I'd would choose iron sights every day. But I have been handed a gun that I do not prefer (Glock 45) with a sighting system with which I've had no experience (RDS), and over the vast majority of drills, I've performed faster to such a degree that I can feel it without the shot timer. I do intend to add the shot timer into the mix soon, however I think for science you should pick like a half dozen drill and do each 2-3 times with bothe the rds and irons from similar carry positions and see where you're at. I recently took the last rmr I had on a handgun to use on a rifle. I'm still thinking about getting another one so I can do that test. I did it a few years ago when I was working at a range. It was kinda disappointed. I was hoping they were going to be a game changer. One of the drills I did was in the dark. It was an indoor range so I could have it pitch black. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:28:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Don’t have one yet and I shoot my irons pretty damn good but I’m not opposed to change and will be picking up a G45 for RDS and a Trijicon as a future purchase to see what all the hubbub is about.
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:32:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RDS look like a bunch of grapes. Bigger the dot, the more grapes there are. Irons, whether on a pistol or rifle, aren't a problem. Never have been. 1st time I bought an RDS, Burris XTS-135, I returned it because I thought the dot was defective. After the 3rd time returning it, I learned I had astigmatisms. Just imagine if you actually treated your vision disorder with something like a pair of Rx glasses. You'd be nearly superhuman. 
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:32:53 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you went from a A class shooter to an A class shooter. Then as you shot more you got better? Then as even more time progressed and you shot more you went back to irons and you had progressed. My match performance and placement immediately improved. You need to shoot five classifiers in order to be classed in USPSA so that takes awhile unless you shoot a special classifier match. When I classed in CO it was M. The performance difference was noticeable, particularly with any kind of technical shooting regardless of range. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:40:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My match performance and placement immediately improved. You need to shoot five classifiers in order to be classed in USPSA so that takes awhile unless you shoot a special classifier match. When I classed in CO it was M. The performance difference was noticeable, particularly with any kind of technical shooting regardless of range. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So you went from a A class shooter to an A class shooter. Then as you shot more you got better? Then as even more time progressed and you shot more you went back to irons and you had progressed. My match performance and placement immediately improved. You need to shoot five classifiers in order to be classed in USPSA so that takes awhile unless you shoot a special classifier match. When I classed in CO it was M. The performance difference was noticeable, particularly with any kind of technical shooting regardless of range. Ok, thanks. Its been a while since I shot actual uspsa matches. I competed 100% with a semi this year. It was nice to be a little higher in the rankings compared to shooting a revolver. Maybe by next year I'll suck it up and shoot a whole season with a rds and see what the scores look like. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:51:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Comparing visible light lasers to MRDSs as a trend. Not comparable. Why? Timers exist. Lasers never showed a performance advantage and are measurably inferior to aimed fire. The potential performance delta of a MRDS is measurable. Could you provide the performance data which you claim exists, and discuss conditions under which this was made? My perspective, force on force or limited visibility, you don't bring the weapon up as it obscures vision. Flashlight illuminates the potential target, identify a weapon or hostile intent, and it is gross muscle movement to put a laser on target. The Army has been teaching laser and NVG use from an underarm position for 30 years, and if you are used to that, there is simply less movement. With a RDS, light illuminates target, you have to move the RDS to your face to aim with it. It was Paul Howe that said there are people who train for speed but dont incorporate shoot/no shoot drills, and they are shooting faster then they aquire. Id agree a red laser is harder to see at long ranges, and broad daylight, but for home defense, you need a light, and you need to look at hands, and then aim. So you cant scan with the pistol up and a RDS has you transition from having it out of the way to aligning sights. Here's an example that contradicts you. https://pistolwizard.com/guides/red-dot-vs-laser I have a RDS on one pistol and it is more accurate at long range, and great for groups, and better for concealed carry and accurate if we are presenting and blasting cardboard and going for A-zone outdoors on sunny days. Try clearing at night, home defense, where you are using a light and incorporate shoot/no shoot and scanning for weapons. If you have data that includes that, I'm prepared to be educated and change my opinion. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:53:53 PM EDT
[#35]
I dumped the “front sight” method years ago for looking past the sights at the target. So I line up the 3 posts while watching the target in focus. It is a bit easier with the red dot I’ve used on a family member’s Walther, but I don’t have one myself, and haven’t gone out of the way to buy one yet. However, it’s academic for carry, even if faster technically during gun games.
For one, it adds bulk. This won’t work for regular pocket carry or concealment with normal fitting clothes. However, some wear clothing around their gun and it’ll be fine for those people. I don’t wear shirts 2 sizes too large, but not skin tight either. Even an IWB pistol with a RDS is going to look like a gun under my shirts. Two, there are so many more important concepts for civilian defensive shooting than the gun or sight type (aside from the obvious need to be reliable). Situational awareness, the ability to stay calm under pressure, retaining the element of surprise, etc. score higher. I don’t disagree on their speed or ease of use, but it really is splitting hairs for non-LE or non-mil work. I will buy one one of these days, because I do like them, but it’s nonsense to argue about a practical need for them. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 10:58:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Red dots and iron sights are for pussies. I close my eyes and use the Force.
This is just another useless argument where you get to play smarter than the other guy. F all that. Use whichever you prefer. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:04:09 PM EDT
[#37]
After being convinced that RDS are in fact the future. I dove in head first. And ZEV slide RMR my Glock 19. Now this boomer is a sworn advocate for RDS on a pistol.
I owe an apology to 45 Seventy and anyone else I may have ignorantly argued with. There is IMO no downside to a dot on your pistol. Only upsides. Could I effectively defend myself without a dot sure. But the time I have spent dry firing and taking training classes with one has shown me that target focus is better than front sight focus. I am not a world class competitor. But I am convinced the dot is king. Your milage may vary and to each their own. Me I'm not going back. Anyone know where I can get a slide for my 26? |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:04:43 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuddsplaining why red dots are bad. I couldn't take too much of that... When he decried how you have a big problem with red dots after the initial shot because you would then have to re-aquire the dot, I lol'd. So this phenomenon doesn't happen with irons? Right. There is nothing new in that video. "Muh irons are just as gud for self defense range" is derp. Sure 1-7, or 1-10 yards as he said, is the average for self defense. Why not be better-prepared in the event your scenario is not the average? I mean fuck we just had the good Samaritan with a major win at the mall. Not gonna comment on the rest. It's been done befo. Do you even know who Ken Hackathorn is or his background? You have zero clue what you are talking about, nor did you (and many of you) actually listen with an open mind or absorb what he said. Aside from him talking about the negatives (and positives) of people who think the RDS is the wheel. I think he really upset the 50-100rd every few months (if not 2-3x a year) at the indoor range crowd who thinks they are competent crowd. I do love when Ken picks on the AIWB crowd though, they get their dick all twisted. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:06:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have astigmatisms in both eyes. RDS aren't for me, either on pistols or rifles. I understand their appeal for some people, though. This is either a bullshit excuse or your eye doctor is as much of an idiot as Hackethorn. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:08:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... Try clearing at night where you are using a light and incorporate shoot/no shoot and scanning for weapons. If you have data that includes that, I'm prepared to be educated and change my opinion. Sage Dynamics' White Paper. Start on p. 45. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:10:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Lol. Old dude yelling at clouds.
Stop being poor. Put a red dot on your pistol. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:13:33 PM EDT
[#42]
For the most part he is correct - and I certainly don’t agree with everything Hackathorn says.
There are some people like me that a dot provides a huge benefit and is the reason I went to open division decades ago. I don’t have a dominant eye. At all. With irons, leaving both eyes open I see two overlapping sight pictures. While I’ve learned proficiency and shoot irons very well, the dot will ALWAYS be faster for me since I’m really shooting with one eye closed down. I do plan on putting a dot on my Hellcat Pro and practicing with it. Learning the new dots shouldn’t take long since they are very low compared to the mounts and C-more sights I’m used to - especially with the no plate mounting like the Hellcat. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:23:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could you provide the performance data which you claim exists, and discuss conditions under which this was made? My perspective, force on force or limited visibility, you don't bring the weapon up as it obscures vision. Flashlight illuminates the potential target, identify a weapon or hostile intent, and it is gross muscle movement to put a laser on target. The Army has been teaching laser and NVG use from an underarm position for 30 years, and if you are used to that, there is simply less movement. With a RDS, light illuminates target, you have to move the RDS to your face to aim with it. It was Paul Howe that said there are people who train for speed but dont incorporate shoot/no shoot drills, and they are shooting faster then they aquire. Id agree a red laser is harder to see at long ranges, and broad daylight, but for home defense, you need a light, and you need to look at hands, and then aim. So you cant scan with the pistol up and a RDS has you transition from having it out of the way to aligning sights. Here's an example that contradicts you. https://pistolwizard.com/guides/red-dot-vs-laser I have a RDS on one pistol and it is more accurate at long range, and great for groups, and accurate if we are just presenting and blasting cardboard and going for A-zone outdoors on sunny days. Try clearing at night where you are using a light and incorporate shoot/no shoot and scanning for weapons. If you have data that includes that, I'm prepared to be educated and change my opinion. Without actually taking you out to a range and showing you on a timer the easiest way to demonstrate is to point to what Open Division shooters are running. Visible light lasers are legal in USPSA Open and IDPA CO yet statistically zero people use them. I say statistically zero because I’m sure someone out there is using them, but I’ve never seen it. Hell, I’ve never even heard of it. In a venue in which people will throw obscene amounts of money in order to gain fractions of seconds over the course of a day, why is that? Easy… because they do not add anything in terms of performance. Why? You have no user feedback unless you’re already on target. Even in the scenarios you’re describing they’re slower and I only say that because I’ve done it with both. Hell, even with a rifle they’re slower. A visible light laser is legal in PCC Division and I use one for that application, however, it is only useful in an extremely narrow range of circumstances which don’t translate well to the real world. Typical start position is “stock on belt, muzzle downrange”. If I can start lazing steel and get a round off at the buzzer around 0.3-ish seconds it’s money. I’ll even pull a double on paper if it’s an open target within 5 meters or so because that’s usually good for 0.6-ish seconds for two Alphas. But anything on paper beyond that it’s faster to use aimed fire and actually bring the rifle up to your shoulder because if you’re reliant upon the laser you’re getting a lot of muzzle movement so your split times are going to be up to double what they would be otherwise. Without the artificial construct of a defined start position it’s just an ounce of dead weight on the gun. Visible light lasers gargle ballsack on an industrial scale. There’s a reason nobody really considers them a viable option outside of TV and movies. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:26:06 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you even know who Ken Hackathorn is or his background? You have zero clue what you are talking about, nor did you (and many of you) actually listen with an open mind or absorb what he said. Aside from him talking about the negatives (and positives) of people who think the RDS is the wheel. I think he really upset the 50-100rd every few months (if not 2-3x a year) at the indoor range crowd who thinks they are competent crowd. I do love when Ken picks on the AIWB crowd though, they get their dick all twisted. I know who he is. I’ve talked to him a number of times and I have a lot of respect for him. But he’s wrong about some things. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:33:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually doing force on force with pistols makes me want a red dot forever. Also double forever at night. Trying to shoot in a zero light environment is what put me on my path to a dot on my pistol. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:37:19 PM EDT
[#46]
The red dot on pistols may be good for some of you city guys but mine have been useless about half of the times ive needed them. Too much SXS dust or running outside to smoke a yote in the livestock only to have it fog up everything from the sudden temperature change. not anymore.
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:47:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The red dot on pistols may be good for some of you city guys but mine have been useless about half of the times ive needed them. Too much SXS dust or running outside to smoke a yote in the livestock only to have it fog up everything from the sudden temperature change. not anymore. Tell me don’t shoot with both eyes open without saying you don’t shoot with both eyes open. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:47:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you even know who Ken Hackathorn is or his background? A fudd like Jeff Cooper. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:51:40 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just out of curiosity. What ranking were you when you started to use optics and when you switched what division did it bring you up to? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where he is off the mark is where he is making the politically correct statement "everyone should try them." Few people are very well served by plunking $300 - $500 into electronics that are going to sit atop a CCW piece. Red dots on pistols and red dots on rifles are two totally different animals, and folks who try to argue otherwise clearly don't have much time on either platform. Rifles have 2+ points of contact, much better eye relief, and single points of aim (dots) work exceptionally well when you are dealing with a trajectory that allows for +/- 3" from 0 to about 225 yards. I have yet to see any shooter, pro or otherwise, who is faster, consistently, 7 yards and in, with a red dot on a pistol. Nearly every shooter I've seen is MUCH more accurate with a dot from 10+ yards out, and most are faster as well, many significantly so. That is different from rifles, where a dot is often faster at ALL distances. Dots also make it much easier to train new/low roundcount shooters. That fact alone is likely driving the massive adoption by LE and MIL. But for most folks, in the CCW arena, they are a liability, despite the wild claims from the keyboard commando crowd. So for me, it really comes down to what I expect to do with a handgun, and what distances I reasonably expect to be engaging things. Serious question: Do you shoot competitively? Because I know scores of shooters who are faster and more accurate with a MRDS across a spectrum of skill levels even at seven yards. In fact, I am one of them. I was when I was a B-Class and I still am as a GM. It may only be a consistent quarter to a half second on a drill and it may just be less Charlie’s over the course of a training evolution, but the difference is there. Just out of curiosity. What ranking were you when you started to use optics and when you switched what division did it bring you up to? WTF would his class go up when he enters a harder division? Someone going from production to another division may have better hit factors due to less mag changes, major scoring, an optic, etc. but their percentile in that division will likely be similar. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 11:58:02 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My match performance and placement immediately improved. You need to shoot five classifiers in order to be classed in USPSA so that takes awhile unless you shoot a special classifier match. When I classed in CO it was M. The performance difference was noticeable, particularly with any kind of technical shooting regardless of range. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So you went from a A class shooter to an A class shooter. Then as you shot more you got better? Then as even more time progressed and you shot more you went back to irons and you had progressed. My match performance and placement immediately improved. You need to shoot five classifiers in order to be classed in USPSA so that takes awhile unless you shoot a special classifier match. When I classed in CO it was M. The performance difference was noticeable, particularly with any kind of technical shooting regardless of range. Another thing I have noticed a huge difference on now is stage layout at matches. Compared to a decade ago, I’m seeing way more range and accuracy required on stages, and less obvious targets to find and not fail to engage. The courses are laid out seemingly to make the difference between high capacity optics shooters even more than they used to be. |
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