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Posted: 12/29/2021 6:09:37 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good video, makes sense for the cause. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pS17RPgqfI Wow |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 6:11:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The localizer approach to 27 is a LOC-D, so even though it's pointed at the runway, it's a circling approach, and circling to 27R isn't authorized at night. It looks like the RNAV approach to 9L isn't authorized for category C and D aircraft, and I'm betting the LR-35 is a CAT C airplane. So that leaves the RNAV 17 as the only usable approach. It's been posted elsewhere that the company minimum runway length for landing was 5,000', 17 isn't that long, so they had to use 09L/27R. I'd agree that San Diego would have been the better option. Thanks for this, I'm still learning how to read an approach plate. In view of this data, if visibility was a problem for the visual approach (and from the videos etc. as well as the ATC audio, it appears it was) they should have diverted to someplace with an instrument approach to a runway of suitable length. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 6:11:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: San Diego Gillespie Field Tower cleared the flight to land on runway 17. At 19:11 the flight contacted ATC, cancelling their IFR clearance and requesting to land on runway 27R. It was approved. The flight crew then requested the runway lights to be turned up, to which the controller replied that “they are at a 100% now”. The pilot requesting clearance to land then screaming “…oh shit! oh shit!,” before the transmission went silent. Oh shit is said to be about the universal last words of most pilots in a crash.. read that somewhere 30 years ago when I was taking flying lessons. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 6:13:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn. That scream at the end was rough. Yeah I'm glad I didn't listen. 
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:04:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “Explosion There is no fixed definition of an explosion. https://shepherd.caltech.edu/EDL/projects/JetA/Glossary.html There are definitions of explosions, but it's still pedantic and entirely beside the point. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:13:42 PM EDT
[#6]
On a medical jet, does 2 crew / 2 pax mean 2 pilots and 2 medics/patients?
Or can it mean one pilot, one medic, one patient and one family member? In other words, are the medical workers considered crew or pax? |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:56:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On a medical jet, does 2 crew / 2 pax mean 2 pilots and 2 medics/patients? Or can it mean one pilot, one medic, one patient and one family member? In other words, are the medical workers considered crew or pax? They’re not technically considered “flight crew” AFAIK. Depending on the conversation and setting, they might still be described as crew. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:57:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On a medical jet, does 2 crew / 2 pax mean 2 pilots and 2 medics/patients? Or can it mean one pilot, one medic, one patient and one family member? In other words, are the medical workers considered crew or pax? For the civilian world they are not considered aircrew as I understand. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:58:40 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: This was already covered by the rubes so I guess you didn't catch it. Runway 17 would have put them closer to their hangar. The prevailing theory is that they wanted the longer runway due to wet conditions. I can totally buy that having seen a Lear 35 eat up a 8500ft runway in daytime dry conditions. I joined the thread around page 6-8 so I probably missed a lot. With nearly 2000 PIC in them, flying a fleet of them, and being responsible for over 40 pilots of them…I’ve never seen that. But, I can believe they wanted the longer runway. Quoted: The localizer approach to 27 is a LOC-D, so even though it's pointed at the runway, it's a circling approach, and circling to 27R isn't authorized at night. It looks like the RNAV approach to 9L isn't authorized for category C and D aircraft, and I'm betting the LR-35 is a CAT C airplane. So that leaves the RNAV 17 as the only usable approach. It's been posted elsewhere that the company minimum runway length for landing was 5,000', 17 isn't that long, so they had to use 09L/27R. I'd agree that San Diego would have been the better option. It’s in an odd spot. In that configuration REF would have been close to 115 leaving it right on the border of B/C depending on how comfortable you are with a low REF. They could have shot a straight in to 09L and still been well under the max tailwind component. I suspect this will be a case of “this is how we’ve always done it.” Given the weather mins, number of approaches available, and their familiarity with that airport they wouldn’t have considered an alternate. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 9:45:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it indicates the opposite. He felt like it was in the bag. Comfortable, maybe to the point of complacency. I wonder if what he thought they were closer to the airport than they were and mistook some other ground lights for runway. Lots of ifs just sorry for the pilot, passengers and families. Thankfully no one on the ground was injured or killed. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 9:52:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if what he thought they were closer to the airport than they were Since the accident is the PIC tightening up the turn to intercept the final approach course, the more likely scenario is that he thought they were further away from the airport than they actually were. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 10:11:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Is this guy correct in his argument that small jet pilots aren't trained properly for this sort of scenario? Any pilots care to weigh in on this?
The way he's making this sound, it's a training failure of absolutely epic proportions that is going to get many more pilots killed if something isn't done about it: (Note: skip ahead to 32 seconds if you don't want to hear the pilot's scream)  Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 10:14:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this guy correct in his argument that small jet pilots aren't trained properly for this sort of scenario? Any pilots care to weigh in on this? The way he's making this sound, it's a training failure of absolutely epic proportions that is going to get many more pilots killed if something isn't done about it:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pS17RPgqfINo. He’s 100% incorrect. I do about 8 circles a year in the sim. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 10:36:47 PM EDT
[#14]
EL CAJON, Calif. – The remaining two victims killed in this week’s jet crash in unincorporated El Cajon were identified Wednesday by the San Diego County Medical Examiner’s Office.
 The office said Julian Jorge Bugaj, 67, and Douglas James Grande, 45, died when their Learjet 35A aircraft crashed Monday night in the 1200 block of Pepper Drive. They were identified using “special fingerprinting” techniques, according to a county spokesman. Two other victims, Tina Ward and Laurie Gentz, were not named by the office, but have been confirmed as victims by organizations linked to them. In a brief summary provided by the office, the process continues to identify Ward and Gentz — both listed as Jane Doe — before notifying their families. They expect the two cases will take longer to resolve with one that possibly could be identified by dental records by the end of the week and the other requiring DNA testing that can take “several months.” Gentz was identified Wednesday morning as the local union president for Massachusetts-based International Association of EMTs and Paramedics, the organization said in a social media post. Video  Victims of East County San Diego plane crash identified by colleagues, medical examiner |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 11:40:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://fox5sandiego.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2021/12/Plane-crash-day-3-122921-e1640823419322.jpg?strip=1 The office said Julian Jorge Bugaj, 67, and Douglas James Grande, 45, died when their Learjet 35A aircraft crashed Monday night in the 1200 block of Pepper Drive. They were identified using “special fingerprinting” techniques, according to a county spokesman. In a brief summary provided by the office, the process continues to identify Ward and Gentz — both listed as Jane Doe — before notifying their families. They expect the two cases will take longer to resolve with one that possibly could be identified by dental records by the end of the week and the other requiring DNA testing that can take “several months.” Snipped quote. Holy shit, that's what you know it was bad. 
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Posted: 12/29/2021 11:49:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for this, I'm still learning how to read an approach plate. In view of this data, if visibility was a problem for the visual approach (and from the videos etc. as well as the ATC audio, it appears it was) they should have diverted to someplace with an instrument approach to a runway of suitable length. I mentioned that the San Diego airport was 12 miles away with a 9400 foot runway...roughly 4000 feet longer than their intended runway 27R (R = right). |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:36:28 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. He’s 100% incorrect. I do about 8 circles a year in the sim. MEM or JFK? IMHO simulators are horrible for learning circling approaches. All my "recent" type ratings are limited to VFR circling, and I'm more than fine with that. I don't have any desire to fly a circle to minimums in a CAT D airplane. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:41:56 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mentioned that the San Diego airport was 12 miles away with a 9400 foot runway...roughly 4000 feet longer than their intended runway 27R (R = right). That sure would have made more sense On a side note, are there any “easy” airports in the San Diego area? |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:44:06 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MEM or JFK? IMHO simulators are horrible for learning circling approaches. All my "recent" type ratings are limited to VFR circling, and I'm more than fine with that. I don't have any desire to fly a circle to minimums in a CAT D airplane. Do the airlines even sim circle approaches? I would think corporate pilots would spend more time on them then the airline folks. I'm a little outta my lane, but I do think the airline guys and gals sim specific approaches into airports they fly in... whatever that river visual into DCA is, "slam dunk" into DAL (that a real thing?). There was a controller save at BOS on an ILS circle a couple years ago. Fuck IDK. I would never want to fly a real mins circle either. Watching T38s fly them is fun though. Throw some money down if they will over shoot final or not. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:44:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That sure would have made more sense On a side note, are there any “easy” airports in the San Diego area? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I mentioned that the San Diego airport was 12 miles away with a 9400 foot runway...roughly 4000 feet longer than their intended runway 27R (R = right). That sure would have made more sense On a side note, are there any “easy” airports in the San Diego area? I don't think so, it's so crowded there. Even NAS North Island is funny with frequent tailwinds because you can't approach to the west. I was there a few months ago and our crew had a new co that had an eye-opening bit of flying compared to what she has to deal with in flyover. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:52:37 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do the airlines even sim circle approaches? I would think corporate pilots would spend more time on them then the airline folks. I'm a little outta my lane, but I do think the airline guys and gals sim specific approaches into airports they fly in... whatever that river visual into DCA is, "slam dunk" into DAL (that a real thing?). There was a controller save at BOS on an ILS circle a couple years ago. Fuck IDK. I would never want to fly a real mins circle either. Watching T38s fly them is fun though. Throw some money down if they will over shoot final or not. The commuter airline I grew up at did circling approaches to minimums, and we were checked on them in the sim twice a year. I’ve done more ILS 27, circle 18R at MEM than I care to remember. At my current shop, we don’t circle below VFR minimums, 1000/3. So we don’t do them in the sim. We do the river visual 19 at DCA during initial qual, mostly for P-56 awareness and avoidance. None of the other interesting approaches, like the expressway (now stadium) visual for 31 at LGA. A circle in the sim isn’t usually flown by reference to the ground, like it would be in the airplane. The older sims are especially bad with that. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:57:09 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the saddest things we ever had to do in the USAF Air Rescue business was go out and pick up what was left. Did that once. A-6E crash into the Columbia. The SAR guys ended up taking his body back to base. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:57:13 AM EDT
[#23]
20 or so years back I did a lot of circling approaches at circling minimums. I worked for a literal fly by night 135 cargo outfit. Sketchy as hell. A few years later I had a newly minted CE500 type and single pilot exemption letter. Flying a top of the line Encore+ as a single pilot. God as far as I was concerned. Flew an approach to the circling mins for the first time like I had done in the sim doing my SPE ride and while on the downwind that shitty night I decided that was fucking retarded. I haven’t done it since. Straight in or we go to a different hotel bar to talk about it.
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Posted: 12/30/2021 1:12:14 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do the airlines even sim circle approaches? I would think corporate pilots would spend more time on them then the airline folks. I'm a little outta my lane, but I do think the airline guys and gals sim specific approaches into airports they fly in... whatever that river visual into DCA is, "slam dunk" into DAL (that a real thing?). There was a controller save at BOS on an ILS circle a couple years ago. Fuck IDK. I would never want to fly a real mins circle either. Watching T38s fly them is fun though. Throw some money down if they will over shoot final or not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: MEM or JFK? IMHO simulators are horrible for learning circling approaches. All my "recent" type ratings are limited to VFR circling, and I'm more than fine with that. I don't have any desire to fly a circle to minimums in a CAT D airplane. Do the airlines even sim circle approaches? I would think corporate pilots would spend more time on them then the airline folks. I'm a little outta my lane, but I do think the airline guys and gals sim specific approaches into airports they fly in... whatever that river visual into DCA is, "slam dunk" into DAL (that a real thing?). There was a controller save at BOS on an ILS circle a couple years ago. Fuck IDK. I would never want to fly a real mins circle either. Watching T38s fly them is fun though. Throw some money down if they will over shoot final or not. Can't speak on all airlines but at mine we have to demonstrate a circling maneuver at VFR mins on the type ride. That's pretty much it. I can't recall ever doing one otherwise. I also cannot imagine a pilot willing to conduct such a maneuver in an A-330. I also can't recall ever seeing us fly into any place that doesn't have either an ILS, VOR or more than likely some form of RNAV approach. The hairier the place the more likely it'll be an RNAV-RNP with full guidance. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 1:25:03 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 20 or so years back I did a lot of circling approaches at circling minimums. I worked for a literal fly by night 135 cargo outfit. Sketchy as hell. A few years later I had a newly minted CE500 type and single pilot exemption letter. Flying a top of the line Encore+ as a single pilot. God as far as I was concerned. Flew an approach to the circling mins for the first time like I had done in the sim doing my SPE ride and while on the downwind that shitty night I decided that was fucking retarded. I haven’t done it since. Straight in or we go to a different hotel bar to talk about it. This mentality would save a lot of lives. Are there times that rules need to be bent? Sure. But mostly...not worth it. Aviating has dangers that most people aren't aware of and the speed at which life goes from status quo to death is seconds, if not milliseconds. Anyone who has ever spun out in a turn in a car, due to speed, water or ice, and was shocked that it happened....imagine the same thing in the air, with a fireball as the result, not just a sudden stop in a muddy field. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 1:31:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Fire in the hole 0:39
 Investigators return to the El Cajon airplane crash scene, victims identified |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 1:40:41 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryInteresting. I have never heard or seen anything about blowing pressure vessels at a crash site before. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:57:35 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MEM or JFK? IMHO simulators are horrible for learning circling approaches. All my "recent" type ratings are limited to VFR circling, and I'm more than fine with that. I don't have any desire to fly a circle to minimums in a CAT D airplane. MEM. I’ve done JFK too, even ICT if I recall correctly. I fully expect circles to go away after these two crashes. In March I go to school on a new jet so we will see if we train for them in initial. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 4:26:31 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryWhat? I've worked a couple plane crashes and I have never seen that. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 5:34:54 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This Doesnt need to be aired Really, why not? Sometimes I do not understand non critical thinking. You do not need nor shoot firearms, riite. JHC |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 5:42:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe it was yet another instrument approach then circle to land casualty. They kill so many pilots in unforgiving fast aircraft. This |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 6:19:09 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about that plane the guy jumped out of and filmed? I mean, the plane crashed with no pilot,right? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Actually... Planes don't crash. A pilot crashed a plane he was piloting. How about that plane the guy jumped out of and filmed? I mean, the plane crashed with no pilot,right? But did it explode? Eta: posted before seeing delta's warning. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 6:46:14 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Snipped quote. Holy shit, that's what you know it was bad. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://fox5sandiego.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15/2021/12/Plane-crash-day-3-122921-e1640823419322.jpg?strip=1 The office said Julian Jorge Bugaj, 67, and Douglas James Grande, 45, died when their Learjet 35A aircraft crashed Monday night in the 1200 block of Pepper Drive. They were identified using “special fingerprinting” techniques, according to a county spokesman. In a brief summary provided by the office, the process continues to identify Ward and Gentz — both listed as Jane Doe — before notifying their families. They expect the two cases will take longer to resolve with one that possibly could be identified by dental records by the end of the week and the other requiring DNA testing that can take “several months.” Snipped quote. Holy shit, that's what you know it was bad. In case you are not up on this kind of thing, there are not a lot of plane crashes that are "good," in terms of human remains. Let me assure you that what happens to human bodies in plane crashes tends to be..."not pretty." And so as not to deal with all the mental imagery again right now, I'll just leave it at that. 
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Posted: 12/30/2021 7:13:02 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But did it explode? Eta: posted before seeing delta's warning. LOL He ran that T-craft out of gas on purpose. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 7:17:24 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is this guy correct in his argument that small jet pilots aren't trained properly for this sort of scenario? It would take too long to explain why Gryder's wrong. He's technically kinda right about a minor point (that there's no industry-standard Vapp Maneuvering Speed), but in the big picture conceptually he's wrong...and he thinks the entire industry is wrong for not thinking his minor point isn't the biggest, most important thing in the history of aviation. The bottom line is, those guys are not at the bottom of a smoking hole simply because they were not trained to use Gryder's Magic Airspeed. There is a judgment/decisionmaking error-chain occurring well before Gryder's magic airspeed that got them into the position where they tried to turn tighter than their jet could perform. Lear guys: what's the normal runway lateral displacement for downwind? From the data plots so far, they were less than a mile from the 27 centerline at the downwind's widest point. This seems too tight to me, but most of my small jet experience is in Cat D and E aircraft. By my estimation, something like 1 1/4 or 1.5 miles is a more appropriate pattern size when below the normal VFR pattern altitude, but that's a guess based on slightly faster airplanes. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 7:37:56 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if what he thought they were closer to the airport than they were and mistook some other ground lights for runway. As a non-pilot, complete layperson, I would think the debris field being so compact would completely debunk this somewhat GD-aviation expert idea he mistook the street as the runway. If he was landing and at the last second realized, wait a sec this isn't the airport environment, the debris would be scattered for a long distance considering his speed. Yet, the debris shown in the video is basically as if the aircraft dropped straight down. Further, if you watch the video from the nest camera with the ATC radio transcripts overlaid, you can see he's clearly circling and then rapidly descending as he starts saying oh shit. Complete layperson so if I'm wrong the pros can laugh and point at me but I keep reading this "maybe he was trying to land on the street" and kinda thinking "wtf". |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 8:09:08 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a non-pilot, complete layperson, I would think the debris field being so compact would completely debunk this somewhat GD-aviation expert idea he mistook the street as the runway. If he was landing and at the last second realized, wait a sec this isn't the airport environment, . That is not the implication of the pilot mistaking a road for the runway. The mistake would be thinking he was further away from the actual runway than he really was, which caused him to make the abrupt turn when he saw the actual runway. The cause of the accident from an aerodynamic perspective is a stall/spin, not an unintentional landing attempt on the wrong surface. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 8:27:18 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for this, I'm still learning how to read an approach plate. In view of this data, if visibility was a problem for the visual approach (and from the videos etc. as well as the ATC audio, it appears it was) they should have diverted to someplace with an instrument approach to a runway of suitable length. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The localizer approach to 27 is a LOC-D, so even though it's pointed at the runway, it's a circling approach, and circling to 27R isn't authorized at night. It looks like the RNAV approach to 9L isn't authorized for category C and D aircraft, and I'm betting the LR-35 is a CAT C airplane. So that leaves the RNAV 17 as the only usable approach. It's been posted elsewhere that the company minimum runway length for landing was 5,000', 17 isn't that long, so they had to use 09L/27R. I'd agree that San Diego would have been the better option. Thanks for this, I'm still learning how to read an approach plate. In view of this data, if visibility was a problem for the visual approach (and from the videos etc. as well as the ATC audio, it appears it was) they should have diverted to someplace with an instrument approach to a runway of suitable length. Hindsight is always perfect. Remember this pilot was working for an employer. It's a med flight, so there is always the pressure of scheduled treatment and seriously ill people. When the weather is clear, blue and 22, the situation is easy. When it is zero-zero, the decision is easy. The devil is in the details. He was very close on his downwind. For bugsmashers, that's not a big deal. For Cat C and D aircraft who have to fly a standard traffic pattern, it's a very big deal. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 8:35:11 AM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 12/30/2021 8:59:57 AM EDT
[#40]
We should probably change our circle mins at our organization to 1000/3.
I'm going to have a conversation with our leadership about this. Circling in the sim at MEM or JFK just doesn't prepare crews well for doing that at mins at a real airport. Especially at an airfield with very little area lighting or too much lighting. Add to that an unforgiving aircraft and some aircrew fatigue and it's a dangerous situation, potentially. Used to actually circle more back in the 90's or early 2000's. Sometimes after an NDB approach at night. A couple of times it was "interesting". At least back then we were in the King Air and she's a wonderful and forgiving aircraft. The proliferation of RNAV approaches to each end of nearly every runway in the country have made the circle a rare event. I bet it's been almost 20 years since I've flown a circle out of an approach at a destination airport on a trip. It's always in the sim or sometimes in the King Air if we take our check ride in the aircraft itself. Never in the jet so far. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 11:39:12 AM EDT
[#41]
Those of you in the know mention "over shoot" with the circle approach technique. Is this term used because 1) pilot needs to have more speed to do this turn, and 2) runway may not be long enough to handle that increase speed?
Thanks, |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 11:52:51 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those of you in the know mention "over shoot" with the circle approach technique. Is this term used because 1) pilot needs to have more speed to do this turn, and 2) runway may not be long enough to handle that increase speed? Thanks, Overshoot in this respect means that an aircraft was late in turning to line up with the runway it was intending to land on. One way to fix that is to just pull back harder and turn faster, but that increases your stall speed. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 11:56:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those of you in the know mention "over shoot" with the circle approach technique. Is this term used because 1) pilot needs to have more speed to do this turn, and 2) runway may not be long enough to handle that increase speed? Thanks, Caveat: I’m not any kind of expert. My understanding is that people sometimes fly the downwind leg too close to the runway and at a lower altitude. That forces a tighter turn to make it back 180 degrees onto the final approach or they won’t be lined up with the centerline of the runway. An aggressive turn increases the risk for an accelerated stall without enough altitude to recover. ETA: Knowledgeable poster responded above while I was typing. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 12:05:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hindsight is always perfect. Remember this pilot was working for an employer. It's a med flight, so there is always the pressure of scheduled treatment and seriously ill people. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 1:18:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those of you in the know mention "over shoot" with the circle approach technique. Is this term used because 1) pilot needs to have more speed to do this turn, and 2) runway may not be long enough to handle that increase speed? Thanks, Draw a straight line along the same axis as the runway, out toward the approach end and beyond. That is the "extended centerline". When turning onto the final approach path, you should really not be banking any more than a standard 30 degree bank, and you should be rolling out right on that line, lined up with the runway, right on that extended centerline. "Overshooting final" means you blew past that line making the turn. Increasing your bank angle to try and make a sharper turn to avoid overshooting that lineup, increases the load factor on the airplane which in turn increases the speed at which the airplane will stall. And generally during the approach you are already at a low airspeed. Sometimes you misjudge your distance from the centerline and begin the turn too late. Sometimes a tailwind picks up and pushes you past that extended centerline. Sometimes, your airspeed is higher than usual and so you don't begin your turn onto the centerline soon enough, overshooting your lineup. Regardless of how it happens, increasing your bank beyond the normal, and ham fisting the airplane trying to avoid the overshoot at low altitude and in a low energy state is a well known recipe for a unrecoverable stall/spin into the ground. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 1:29:57 PM EDT
[#46]
 Tragic plane crash on Pepper Drive, El Cajon California. Audio and video. 12/27/21  El Cajon Plane Crash December 27, 2021 Security Camera 
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Posted: 12/30/2021 1:43:42 PM EDT
[#47]
@SmilingBandit and @TheKill
Thanks for the reply. Very little aircraft knowledge but that was understandable. And to add a little to the thread just because. I've been in the aerospace manufacturing industry for 36+ years. We manufacture all major structural non-rotating components for most all jet engines: Front frames, Low/High Pressure Compressors (Titainium), Combustor/Diffuser Cases (Steel, NI, Rene, etc.), Turbine Rear Frames (Steel, Ni, etc.). Our plant is mostly all larger commercial and military jet engine components. The engine on the Leerjet 35A appears to be a Garrett/Honeywell AS TFE731-2. The components I listed above would be made by our sister plants across the US and Europe. Engine  Attached File Attached FileFor reference, these are the size of the engine components we manufacture: Big round components at the front, mid, and rear of this PW4000  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:36:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If he were "head down" he would have been inside the cockpit, but please do keep enlightening us all on your expert knowledge of flying. Head down as in looking out the left side trying to keep the airfield in sight while in the bank Just as asserted by several other well known pilots here |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:47:50 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Head down as in looking out the left side trying to keep the airfield in sight while in the bank Just as asserted by several other well known pilots here You keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means... But keep digging by all means. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:48:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryBottom pic. Is that's what's left of the plane? 
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