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OH, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:27:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SpaceGuy]
[#1]
 If you've watched the oscars and just heard the news... |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:27:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Aside from the incoherent ramblings of the potatus, nobody is advocating US military involvement as far as I know. A bunch of us want to provide Ukraine with all the supplies they want, but THEY'RE the ones to do the fighting. Sending military supplies and equipment to proxy wars is a time-honored tradition for bqth sides. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: It's a shame that the dysfunctional cheerleader vibe in this thread made you feel like a "pussy" for not discounting the very real threat of a nuclear exchange. There is a reason the most responsible architects of American foreign policy were absolutely adamant that direct conflict between the United States should NEVER be allowed to occur. I'm not aware of any war games envisioning such a scenario that ended happily. If anybody knows of one that didn't end in a nightmarish nuclear exchange, absolutely post a link. INRE: Ukraine not being worth a bucket of warm spit, you're not wrong in failing to find a compelling national security interest worth going to war over in Ukraine. As far as I can tell there isn't one. George Kennan himself thought eastward expansion of NATO to be a dangerous folly. So basically you are in good company. Aside from the incoherent ramblings of the potatus, nobody is advocating US military involvement as far as I know. A bunch of us want to provide Ukraine with all the supplies they want, but THEY'RE the ones to do the fighting. Sending military supplies and equipment to proxy wars is a time-honored tradition for bqth sides. OK. I understand what you are not seeing. You are completely ignoring the effects of the sanctions. I don't know if you have seen this or not. Watch it and ponder the implications. If Russian refineries are destroyed by the sanctions, we might as well have hit them with cruise missiles. The effect is the same. I'd be happy to hear that there is nothing here and he is totally talking out his ass--but he is pretty well respected.  Russian Refineries' Reduced Runs |
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LA, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:30:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By j_hooker: Not that I really care, but it kinda appears there hands are tied behind their back. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By j_hooker: Originally Posted By Kuhndog: We went to Kyiv, but something went wrong ... Fresh shots from one n.p. in the Kiev region. Judging by the Colorado ribbon caste, one of the dead pig dogs is a Kadyrovite. @LastBP 🛡 | @UA_struggle 🇺🇦 Dead Russian - no gore Not that I really care, but it kinda appears there hands are tied behind their back. Same thing I saw but I didn’t want to bias anyone. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:30:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By aeroworksxp: Yeah looks like you are right. But holy shit that is a can of worms. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/327887/SmartSelect_20220327-231436_Brave_jpg-2328822.JPG  https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/327887/SmartSelect_20220327-231553_Brave_jpg-2328823.JPG https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army Don't over think it. The Russians were offering genocide so it makes sense they would take what ever Germany was offering. |
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SD, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:31:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ISEEYOU2: What stolen election ??? 2016 when Putin helped Trump !!! This site needs an iq test for membership. Id wager your shoe size is larger. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:33:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Aside from the incoherent ramblings of the potatus, nobody is advocating US military involvement as far as I know. A bunch of us want to provide Ukraine with all the supplies they want, but THEY'RE the ones to do the fighting. Sending military supplies and equipment to proxy wars is a time-honored tradition for bqth sides. Oh..... well that's different if it's just the president talking about it 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:36:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: Great, Adolph. Read Article 5 of the NATO Charter, and understand if any NATO signatories come under attack you will get fucking chimp-stomped by every piece of First World military technology the Free World has to offer. If you need a list of signatories, just ask. Have a nice night.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:36:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: How is the "restoration of the USSR" going to happen if they can't even competently achieve a victory over Ukraine? If they can't even maintain logistics to support their forces in a neighboring country? Given what is (apparently) known--explain how they are going to take over Poland and the Baltics? Answer--they cant. But what they CAN do is torch the military installations of the free world and every major city with nuclear weapons. That they CAN do. So stop worrying about shit that CAN'T happen and start worrying about shit that CAN happen. Cuz that'd be great. What I see as a goal or as possible doesn't matter. What Putin sees is what matters. We can't affect his view toward Ukraine, he sees it as rightfully his. If Ukraine defeats this invasion, is Putin going to nuke people who didn't attack Russia? Are you arguing that we should embargo aid to Ukraine so that Russia can win so he won't nuke us? I guess you are. You are not the only one to say just give Russia Ukraine, don't support their right of self-determination. You're advocating that might makes right. Some of us disagree with that. |
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THA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:36:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Glock63: This site needs an iq test for membership. Id wager your shoe size is larger. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Glock63: Originally Posted By ISEEYOU2: What stolen election ??? 2016 when Putin helped Trump !!! This site needs an iq test for membership. Id wager your shoe size is larger.  Some much needed levity |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:40:48 PM EDT
[#10]
An IQ test
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USA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:41:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: OK. I understand what you are not seeing. You are completely ignoring the effects of the sanctions. I don't know if you have seen this or not. Watch it and ponder the implications. If Russian refineries are destroyed by the sanctions, we might as well have hit them with cruise missiles. The effect is the same. I'd be happy to hear that there is nothing here and he is totally talking out his ass--but he is pretty well respected.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7cKB3WczsQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: It's a shame that the dysfunctional cheerleader vibe in this thread made you feel like a "pussy" for not discounting the very real threat of a nuclear exchange. There is a reason the most responsible architects of American foreign policy were absolutely adamant that direct conflict between the United States should NEVER be allowed to occur. I'm not aware of any war games envisioning such a scenario that ended happily. If anybody knows of one that didn't end in a nightmarish nuclear exchange, absolutely post a link. INRE: Ukraine not being worth a bucket of warm spit, you're not wrong in failing to find a compelling national security interest worth going to war over in Ukraine. As far as I can tell there isn't one. George Kennan himself thought eastward expansion of NATO to be a dangerous folly. So basically you are in good company. Aside from the incoherent ramblings of the potatus, nobody is advocating US military involvement as far as I know. A bunch of us want to provide Ukraine with all the supplies they want, but THEY'RE the ones to do the fighting. Sending military supplies and equipment to proxy wars is a time-honored tradition for bqth sides. OK. I understand what you are not seeing. You are completely ignoring the effects of the sanctions. I don't know if you have seen this or not. Watch it and ponder the implications. If Russian refineries are destroyed by the sanctions, we might as well have hit them with cruise missiles. The effect is the same. I'd be happy to hear that there is nothing here and he is totally talking out his ass--but he is pretty well respected. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7cKB3WczsNow, I think the sanctions are a legitimate concern. Especially when there seems to be little effort to get actual information and news to the Russian people or speak to them like Reagan did. Without that, we're just helping them motivate the population against us. Not smart IMO. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:41:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: What other choice do they have? Serious question. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:41:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: What other choice do they have? Serious question. Sign a ceasefire? Make peace and move your orcs back to their lines? Seriously, I love how the end of the world is being talked about because god forbid Putin losses a “special operation”. As if USA hasn’t been run off in embarrassment before. O jeez, Putin’s ego is all hurt and bruised. Give him Ukraine’s east... or capital... or the whole of Ukraine to soothe the wild teddy bear. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:43:34 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MannyRibera: Sign a ceasefire? Make peace and move your orcs back to their lines? Seriously, I love how the end of the world is being talked about because god forbid Putin losses a “special operation”. As if USA hasn’t been run off in embarrassment before. O jeez, Putin’s ego is all hurt and bruised. Give him Ukraine’s east... or capital... or the whole of Ukraine to soothe the wild teddy bear. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MannyRibera: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: What other choice do they have? Serious question. Sign a ceasefire? Make peace and move your orcs back to their lines? Seriously, I love how the end of the world is being talked about because god forbid Putin losses a “special operation”. As if USA hasn’t been run off in embarrassment before. O jeez, Putin’s ego is all hurt and bruised. Give him Ukraine’s east... or capital... or the whole of Ukraine to soothe the wild teddy bear. BUT MUH NUKULAR WARRRR! |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:43:42 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryETA I know sarcasm doesn't translate well in text...but I laid it on pretty thick just in case. Oh well. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:47:10 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MannyRibera: Sign a ceasefire? Make peace and move your orcs back to their lines? Seriously, I love how the end of the world is being talked about because god forbid Putin losses a "special operation". As if USA hasn't been run off in embarrassment before. O jeez, Putin's ego is all hurt and bruised. Give him Ukraine's east... or capital... or the whole of Ukraine to soothe the wild teddy bear. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MannyRibera: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: What other choice do they have? Serious question. Sign a ceasefire? Make peace and move your orcs back to their lines? Seriously, I love how the end of the world is being talked about because god forbid Putin losses a "special operation". As if USA hasn't been run off in embarrassment before. O jeez, Putin's ego is all hurt and bruised. Give him Ukraine's east... or capital... or the whole of Ukraine to soothe the wild teddy bear. They could even sign the agreement in Munich.  |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:50:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: BUT MUH NUKULAR WARRRR! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: Originally Posted By MannyRibera: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: What other choice do they have? Serious question. Sign a ceasefire? Make peace and move your orcs back to their lines? Seriously, I love how the end of the world is being talked about because god forbid Putin losses a “special operation”. As if USA hasn’t been run off in embarrassment before. O jeez, Putin’s ego is all hurt and bruised. Give him Ukraine’s east... or capital... or the whole of Ukraine to soothe the wild teddy bear. BUT MUH NUKULAR WARRRR! If we don't stop Putin today there could be a broken down Russian tank in your front yard tomorrow |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:50:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lieh-tzu]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: OK. I understand what you are not seeing. You are completely ignoring the effects of the sanctions. I don't know if you have seen this or not. Watch it and ponder the implications. If Russian refineries are destroyed by the sanctions, we might as well have hit them with cruise missiles. The effect is the same. I'd be happy to hear that there is nothing here and he is totally talking out his ass--but he is pretty well respected. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7cKB3WczsTrade and economic sanctions are also a long tradition. For Russia to say now that they are equal to a nuclear attack is disingenuous, as are most of the pronouncements from Moscow. "Oh no, they have nukes, so we have to give them everything they want" is not and never has been viable foreign policy. ETA - Putin baked this cake. Nobody forced him to it. He can stop the sanctions, stop the death at any time. Putin's failure to consider bad outcomes isn't our fault, nor do we owe him anything for his failures. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:51:04 PM EDT
[#19]
this thread
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:51:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: It's a shame that the dysfunctional cheerleader vibe in this thread made you feel like a "pussy" for not discounting the very real threat of a nuclear exchange. There is a reason the most responsible architects of American foreign policy were absolutely adamant that direct conflict between the United States should NEVER be allowed to occur. I'm not aware of any war games envisioning such a scenario that ended happily. If anybody knows of one that didn't end in a nightmarish nuclear exchange, absolutely post a link. INRE: Ukraine not being worth a bucket of warm spit, you're not wrong in failing to find a compelling national security interest worth going to war over in Ukraine. As far as I can tell there isn't one. George Kennan himself thought eastward expansion of NATO to be a dangerous folly. So basically you are in good company. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By zukguy: Maybe I'm being a pussy here, but I sure wish we had some actual adults to walk us down from the cliff. This shit is getting worse every time Biden opens his mouth, and we're not just talking about a fist fight. We need to step back from this shit, this isn't our fight. Support Ukraine with whatever they need, but we need to stay out of it. That includes even talking about it, sense that stupid mother fucker can't even do that right. I'd rather not have my entire family nuked because two old assholes get in a pissing contest about dick size. It's a shame that the dysfunctional cheerleader vibe in this thread made you feel like a "pussy" for not discounting the very real threat of a nuclear exchange. There is a reason the most responsible architects of American foreign policy were absolutely adamant that direct conflict between the United States should NEVER be allowed to occur. I'm not aware of any war games envisioning such a scenario that ended happily. If anybody knows of one that didn't end in a nightmarish nuclear exchange, absolutely post a link. INRE: Ukraine not being worth a bucket of warm spit, you're not wrong in failing to find a compelling national security interest worth going to war over in Ukraine. As far as I can tell there isn't one. George Kennan himself thought eastward expansion of NATO to be a dangerous folly. So basically you are in good company. Yeah I mean, the horse is out of the barn now, so rooting for Ukraine to keep stacking Ruskies with ATGMs. But assuming we survive this, a serious examination of US foreign policy - and how it may have precipitated this crisis - is needed. It almost certainly wont though. It will probably just be explained away as 'mad vlad got mad' with no other context. |
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:55:16 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryChokey, your posts in this thread are gold. Don't let the commentariat drag you down. 
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:57:22 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 3/27/2022 11:59:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Trade and economic sanctions are also a long tradition. For Russia to say now that they are equal to a nuclear attack is disingenuous, as are most of the pronouncements from Moscow. "Oh no, they have nukes, so we have to give them everything they want" is not and never has been viable foreign policy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: OK. I understand what you are not seeing. You are completely ignoring the effects of the sanctions. I don't know if you have seen this or not. Watch it and ponder the implications. If Russian refineries are destroyed by the sanctions, we might as well have hit them with cruise missiles. The effect is the same. I'd be happy to hear that there is nothing here and he is totally talking out his ass--but he is pretty well respected. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7cKB3WczsTrade and economic sanctions are also a long tradition. For Russia to say now that they are equal to a nuclear attack is disingenuous, as are most of the pronouncements from Moscow. "Oh no, they have nukes, so we have to give them everything they want" is not and never has been viable foreign policy. Nevermind. Have a great night. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:00:28 AM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:01:11 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: If we don't stop Putin today there could be a broken down Russian tank in your front yard tomorrow Oh god I hope so, I need a project to keep me busy. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:01:55 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: Your lips to God's ears. How does the world get Russia to (and safely past) that moment of compete capitulation without Putin committing a nuclear suicide-by-cop? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By Balu: It's a bunch of hot air. You guys are correct in interpreting what they're saying but it's just the posturing of an already defeated country with delusions of grandeur. Like a toad that puffs itself up to scare away a large predator, they just talk big but are actually collapsing in slow motion. Like I said before Russian imperial adventurism must be stopped with this conflict and not later. The world has allowed them to start wars and invade countries with impunity way too long. This shit needs to end now. If that's the end of the Russian state, well sucks to be them. Your lips to God's ears. How does the world get Russia to (and safely past) that moment of compete capitulation without Putin committing a nuclear suicide-by-cop? The post above yours by planemaker describes it pretty accurately. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:03:14 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:04:36 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: Ah. There it is. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:04:50 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Chokey, your posts in this thread are gold. Don't let the commentariat drag you down. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Chokey, your posts in this thread are gold. Don't let the commentariat drag you down. Agreed. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:05:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Balu]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheAlmightyYak: In such a scenario, maybe Putin would settle for just the Eastern Regions (NY, NJ, RI, MA, etc…) For some, that might actually be an improvement anyways ETA - more seriously, anything lately on Putin’s “phase 2” objectives since phase 1 supposedly completed? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheAlmightyYak: Originally Posted By Tuco22: Its pretty sad. In such a scenario, maybe Putin would settle for just the Eastern Regions (NY, NJ, RI, MA, etc…) For some, that might actually be an improvement anyways ETA - more seriously, anything lately on Putin’s “phase 2” objectives since phase 1 supposedly completed? No idea since the whole phase 1 talk is pure bullshit they're making up on the fly. Their actual objectives were to steamroll Ukraine in a few days, force Zelensky to flee or kill him, and install a puppet government. They failed to achieve all of those objectives LOL |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:09:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Unfortunately that's unrealistic. Hindsight being being 20/20 #1 should have been carried out with ruthless single-mindedness. Russia was never going to be our friend just like Germany never will be but you're right that it didn't have to go down the way it did. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:14:55 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Veccio: Their choices are either they leave Ukraine OR they continue escalation and lose even more of their people and remaining treasure with nothing really to show for it afterwards. Putin's gamble for all the resources of Ukraine has failed, Russia cannot win Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Veccio: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: What other choice do they have? Serious question. Be wary of old men with no fucks left to give. With his narcissism and ego, he simply cannot back down. He has to carry this out or go out in a blaze of glory trying. He can win in Ukraine, it will just take measures that we wouldn't contemplate. He, however, is likely willing to take those steps. Crazy fucker might just be right too, the west might pussy out and let it slide. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:15:07 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpaceGuy: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FO58-DrXsAAsrGQ?format=jpg&name=small If you've watched the oscars and just heard the news...  Attached File |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:15:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: What other choice do they have? Serious question. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Birddog15: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
If that first clip is from a pro Putin talk show, then I guess what he is saying is that it must either be total victory over Ukraine, or the end of Russia. Am I understanding that correctly? He's saying essentially that if "The Great Power known as Russia" TM can't subdue little Ukraine, then the mythos of Russian Power/ Greatness will be shattered irrevocably, and they will be on their way as a worthless power and heading toward the dustbin of history. Basically he's saying if they can't take Ukraine, any future threat against NATO or the US will seem utterly absurd. And it was their ability to threaten NATO/US that have Russia its Gravitas and domestic legitimacy for the last 70+ years. The perception of power *is* power . . . and the world's perception of Russia is that they couldn't knock over a lemonade stand run by a troop of girl scouts at this point. If they don't win definitively - total surrender without conditions - then they lose. Period. They are setting the stage for escalation. What other choice do they have? Serious question. Plenty; the best case is not escalation but just keep doing what they are doing until they can negotiate a 80/20 solution: 1. Crimea recognized as Russian territory 2. Ukraine commits to not join NATO or host offensive weapons (ABM, SRBM, Cruise, etc) 3. Donbass becomes 'autonomous' buffer state* (this the least important of the 2) Achieving 1+2 would actually be a substantial victory, especially if forecast out 40-50 years. Assuming of course that the west removes sanctions if Ukraine asks them too as part of the peace deal. Thats my biggest fear - Ukraine strikes a peace deal with Russia...and then the US/West says 'fuck that' and keeps the sanctions going, prompting Russia to continue the war. Thats when escalation is going to happen. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:16:13 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: “Oh man Ukraine shot guys in the leg that were bombing hospitals and killing kids and civies on purpose….I’m now rooting for them!” Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: Originally Posted By SlipperyTuna: Originally Posted By TheResurrector: Yep. As an Active Duty Soldier, I picture someone doing this to me after I am captured. Fuck Ukraine. I hope they all die. Cry more. “Oh man Ukraine shot guys in the leg that were bombing hospitals and killing kids and civies on purpose….I’m now rooting for them!” It's less about caring about their welfare and more about understanding that it's very counterproductive in the long term/big picture. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:24:07 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Nonsense. Russia needs to be curb-stomped in Ukraine. The reason is that by suffering a humiliating defeat of their conventional forces, the spectre of the all-mighty Russian bear disintegrates. Further, by allowing the sanctions to implode the Russian economy and, essentially, forcing them to become a larger North Korea, they will be unable to maintain any military capabilities *at all* whether they be conventional or nuclear. This is the best opportunity in a generation to take Russia off the playing field permanently. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By planemaker: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Or, it was Russia that could have and should have seen that outcome, but Putin drove out not only dissent, but voices of caution and prudence. To the extent that Russia is damaged in any way from this disaster, it was 100% self inflicted. And since we know Putin was motivated by imperialism and expansionism, thin was not caused by the West. That was always a phony narrative. Did you not see the maps, the boasting of going on to the Baltics and Poland? For the 8700th time, this wasn't about NATO, it was about the restoration of the USSR. How is the "restoration of the USSR" going to happen if they can't even competently achieve a victory over Ukraine? If they can't even maintain logistics to support their forces in a neighboring country? Given what is (apparently) known--explain how they are going to take over Poland and the Baltics? Answer--they cant. But what they CAN do is torch the military installations of the free world and every major city with nuclear weapons. That they CAN do. So stop worrying about shit that CAN'T happen and start worrying about shit that CAN happen. Cuz that'd be great. Nonsense. Russia needs to be curb-stomped in Ukraine. The reason is that by suffering a humiliating defeat of their conventional forces, the spectre of the all-mighty Russian bear disintegrates. Further, by allowing the sanctions to implode the Russian economy and, essentially, forcing them to become a larger North Korea, they will be unable to maintain any military capabilities *at all* whether they be conventional or nuclear. This is the best opportunity in a generation to take Russia off the playing field permanently. I mean, North Koreas economy is based on counterfiting $100 bills, selling meth, online hackers raiding bank accounts, and providing slave labor for chinese sweatshops. And they are able to maintain a Nuclear and ballistic missile program. Even a heavily sanctioned Russia will be able to keep up their nukes and delivery systems; someone will buy their oil and gas. And most of the expensive stuff is already paid for. Their conventional forces though are pretty fucked, at least until they set up a 'oil for chinese drones and PGMs' pipeline. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:39:12 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
the kicker: https://i.ibb.co/4V7WSg4/Screen-Shot-2022-03-27-at-9-17-03-PM.png There's some scary stuff in there. While authoritarian Russia is bad for the world, chaotic and destabilized Russia is bad, too. Global peace and stability need a stable, FREE, Russia. And the US can't impose that from outside, or even help much. Theres a parallel universe where in 1991, after the collapse of the USSR, the US launched a Marshal Plan 2.0 for Russia, and permanently defeated this enemy by making them a friend, ala Germany and Japan post-1945. In that parallel universe, Russia was a key partner in the Global War on Terror, and in 2022 Russia integrated with the EU and is helping a the US + EU Contain China. Our 3 greatest mistakes post cold war: 1. Not pivoting to crush China post tiannamen / collapse of USSR 2. Not making Russia a friend, but instead re-creating them as an enemy 3. Invading Iraq, squandering most of the US's Unipolar moment/post9/11 goodwill and destabilizing the mideast There is no alternate reality where the west sends hundreds of billions of dollars to rebuild Russia. That’s our current reality. Most of the ability for Russia to project power over the past 30 years is because the west has been financing it through oil & gas, investments in technology, and manufacturing. We might have been better off letting them collapse. FYI, #1 and #2 are mutually exclusive. Not to mention that #1 would have led to the WW3 you’re trying to avoid. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:39:22 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: I mean, North Koreas economy is based on counterfiting $100 bills, selling meth, online hackers raiding bank accounts, and providing slave labor for chinese sweatshops. And they are able to maintain a Nuclear and ballistic missile program.  Attached File |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:51:05 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Plenty; the best case is not escalation but just keep doing what they are doing until they can negotiate a 80/20 solution: 1. Crimea recognized as Russian territory 2. Ukraine commits to not join NATO or host offensive weapons (ABM, SRBM, Cruise, etc) 3. Donbass becomes 'autonomous' buffer state* (this the least important of the 2) Achieving 1+2 would actually be a substantial victory, especially if forecast out 40-50 years. Assuming of course that the west removes sanctions if Ukraine asks them too as part of the peace deal. Thats my biggest fear - Ukraine strikes a peace deal with Russia...and then the US/West says 'fuck that' and keeps the sanctions going, prompting Russia to continue the war. Thats when escalation is going to happen. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Birddog15: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
If that first clip is from a pro Putin talk show, then I guess what he is saying is that it must either be total victory over Ukraine, or the end of Russia. Am I understanding that correctly? He's saying essentially that if "The Great Power known as Russia" TM can't subdue little Ukraine, then the mythos of Russian Power/ Greatness will be shattered irrevocably, and they will be on their way as a worthless power and heading toward the dustbin of history. Basically he's saying if they can't take Ukraine, any future threat against NATO or the US will seem utterly absurd. And it was their ability to threaten NATO/US that have Russia its Gravitas and domestic legitimacy for the last 70+ years. The perception of power *is* power . . . and the world's perception of Russia is that they couldn't knock over a lemonade stand run by a troop of girl scouts at this point. If they don't win definitively - total surrender without conditions - then they lose. Period. They are setting the stage for escalation. What other choice do they have? Serious question. Plenty; the best case is not escalation but just keep doing what they are doing until they can negotiate a 80/20 solution: 1. Crimea recognized as Russian territory 2. Ukraine commits to not join NATO or host offensive weapons (ABM, SRBM, Cruise, etc) 3. Donbass becomes 'autonomous' buffer state* (this the least important of the 2) Achieving 1+2 would actually be a substantial victory, especially if forecast out 40-50 years. Assuming of course that the west removes sanctions if Ukraine asks them too as part of the peace deal. Thats my biggest fear - Ukraine strikes a peace deal with Russia...and then the US/West says 'fuck that' and keeps the sanctions going, prompting Russia to continue the war. Thats when escalation is going to happen. That's a completely untenable end state for Ukraine. Why would they even consider a "deal" like that? They would be fools to agree to anything less than the restoration of Ukraine's Budapest Accord borders. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 12:53:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpaceGuy: Biden caused Russia to destroy Checnya in 1994? Biden caused Russia to attack Georgia in 2008? Biden caused Russia to annex Crimea in 2014? Biden caused Russia to provide arms and protect the LPR and DPR in 2015? Biden caused Russia to add dozens of BTGs on its Ukrainian border during Trump's administration? Wow. Joe Biden must be the most Machiavellian politician in world history! The whole world's diplomatic choices revolve around Biden pulling troops from Afghanistan which Trump was the one that signed off on! How did Biden make Trump make that choice!?!? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpaceGuy: Originally Posted By SmilinEd: Biden caused Russia to attack Georgia in 2008? Biden caused Russia to annex Crimea in 2014? Biden caused Russia to provide arms and protect the LPR and DPR in 2015? Biden caused Russia to add dozens of BTGs on its Ukrainian border during Trump's administration? Wow. Joe Biden must be the most Machiavellian politician in world history! The whole world's diplomatic choices revolve around Biden pulling troops from Afghanistan which Trump was the one that signed off on! How did Biden make Trump make that choice!?!? Biden was the VP for nearly everything on your list, you tell me if he had anything to do with US response to it. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:03:57 AM EDT
[#41]
While we’re at it, anyone want to speculate what evolution has to happen and why it’s taking longer than (at least lil old me) thought it would take for Putin to get whacked? (With the economic forecast so bad)
I remember the oligarchs are under house arrest. Occams Razor answers are welcome! Is it simply his protectors are such that when he goes down they know they will to? Including the guys standing guard and watching security cams? |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:04:09 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jozsi: An IQ test ... Does it come with fried fucken? |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:07:09 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: Russia installed a puppet to head one of the areas and she was eliminated very quickly. I think they ambushed her car. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zam18th: Originally Posted By weptek911: Originally Posted By iggy1337: I like the fact that one of their installed puppets lasted one day or so before she was popped  Thus is the fait of traitors and with all tose Stingers and ATGMS floating around no puppet should feel safe. Wait, what puppet was popped? I missed that. @iggy1337 Or even link to said puppet? |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:09:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: spydercomonkey]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Balu: That's a completely untenable end state for Ukraine. Why would they even consider a "deal" like that? They would be fools to agree to anything less than the restoration of Ukraine's Budapest Accord borders. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Balu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Birddog15: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
If that first clip is from a pro Putin talk show, then I guess what he is saying is that it must either be total victory over Ukraine, or the end of Russia. Am I understanding that correctly? He's saying essentially that if "The Great Power known as Russia" TM can't subdue little Ukraine, then the mythos of Russian Power/ Greatness will be shattered irrevocably, and they will be on their way as a worthless power and heading toward the dustbin of history. Basically he's saying if they can't take Ukraine, any future threat against NATO or the US will seem utterly absurd. And it was their ability to threaten NATO/US that have Russia its Gravitas and domestic legitimacy for the last 70+ years. The perception of power *is* power . . . and the world's perception of Russia is that they couldn't knock over a lemonade stand run by a troop of girl scouts at this point. If they don't win definitively - total surrender without conditions - then they lose. Period. They are setting the stage for escalation. What other choice do they have? Serious question. Plenty; the best case is not escalation but just keep doing what they are doing until they can negotiate a 80/20 solution: 1. Crimea recognized as Russian territory 2. Ukraine commits to not join NATO or host offensive weapons (ABM, SRBM, Cruise, etc) 3. Donbass becomes 'autonomous' buffer state* (this the least important of the 2) Achieving 1+2 would actually be a substantial victory, especially if forecast out 40-50 years. Assuming of course that the west removes sanctions if Ukraine asks them too as part of the peace deal. Thats my biggest fear - Ukraine strikes a peace deal with Russia...and then the US/West says 'fuck that' and keeps the sanctions going, prompting Russia to continue the war. Thats when escalation is going to happen. That's a completely untenable end state for Ukraine. Why would they even consider a "deal" like that? They would be fools to agree to anything less than the restoration of Ukraine's Budapest Accord borders. Uggh, unless the US/NATO somehow put boots on the ground in Ukraine, or Putin 'dies from covid', that peace deal is the single best outcome Ukraine can hope for. Russia is a bunch of brutish, drunken oafs weilding ancient weapons built by commies... but they have an authoritarian regime, 140 million people, and a bottomless stockpile of dumb bombs and artillery. Collectively, Russia can institute a draft, zombie horde this out, taking insane casualties but steadily scouring ukrainian cities from the earth. Every day this war goes on, more of Ukraine is smashed to rubble. Already Mariupol looks like downtown Syria. Once this happens to every city, Ukraine (a poor country pre-invasion) will be effectively destroyed, destined to poverty and misery for decades barring a complete $100+ Billion rebuilding fund from the west. So, by comparison, that peace deal is pretty sweet; its essentially a status quo antebellum, recognizing the facts on the ground that existed pre-invasion. Sucks but thats reality. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:10:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: If we don't stop Putin today there could be a broken down Russian tank in your front yard tomorrow Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GreenMushroom: Originally Posted By CenterMass762: Originally Posted By MannyRibera: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: What other choice do they have? Serious question. Sign a ceasefire? Make peace and move your orcs back to their lines? Seriously, I love how the end of the world is being talked about because god forbid Putin losses a "special operation". As if USA hasn't been run off in embarrassment before. O jeez, Putin's ego is all hurt and bruised. Give him Ukraine's east... or capital... or the whole of Ukraine to soothe the wild teddy bear. BUT MUH NUKULAR WARRRR! If we don't stop Putin today there could be a broken down Russian tank in your front yard tomorrow You're really making this a tough choice.... |
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USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:17:50 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Uggh, unless the US/NATO somehow put boots on the ground in Ukraine, or Putin 'dies from covid', that peace deal is the single best outcome Ukraine can hope for. Russia is a bunch of brutish, drunken oafs weilding ancient weapons built by commies... but they have an authoritarian regime, 140 million people, and a bottomless stockpile of dumb bombs and artillery. Collectively, Russia can institute a draft, zombie horde this out, taking insane casualties but steadily scouring ukrainian cities from the earth. Every day this war goes on, more of Ukraine is smashed to rubble. Already Mariupol looks like downtown Syria. Once this happens to every city, Ukraine (a poor country pre-invasion) will be effectively destroyed, destined to poverty and misery for decades barring a complete $100+ Billion rebuilding fund from the west. So, by comparison, that peace deal is pretty sweet; its essentially a status quo antebellum, recognizing the facts on the ground that existed pre-invasion. Sucks but thats reality. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Balu: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By _disconnector_: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Birddog15: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Amazing clip:
And overall great (37 post) thread on how sanctions will begin the unraveling of Russia:
If that first clip is from a pro Putin talk show, then I guess what he is saying is that it must either be total victory over Ukraine, or the end of Russia. Am I understanding that correctly? He's saying essentially that if "The Great Power known as Russia" TM can't subdue little Ukraine, then the mythos of Russian Power/ Greatness will be shattered irrevocably, and they will be on their way as a worthless power and heading toward the dustbin of history. Basically he's saying if they can't take Ukraine, any future threat against NATO or the US will seem utterly absurd. And it was their ability to threaten NATO/US that have Russia its Gravitas and domestic legitimacy for the last 70+ years. The perception of power *is* power . . . and the world's perception of Russia is that they couldn't knock over a lemonade stand run by a troop of girl scouts at this point. If they don't win definitively - total surrender without conditions - then they lose. Period. They are setting the stage for escalation. What other choice do they have? Serious question. Plenty; the best case is not escalation but just keep doing what they are doing until they can negotiate a 80/20 solution: 1. Crimea recognized as Russian territory 2. Ukraine commits to not join NATO or host offensive weapons (ABM, SRBM, Cruise, etc) 3. Donbass becomes 'autonomous' buffer state* (this the least important of the 2) Achieving 1+2 would actually be a substantial victory, especially if forecast out 40-50 years. Assuming of course that the west removes sanctions if Ukraine asks them too as part of the peace deal. Thats my biggest fear - Ukraine strikes a peace deal with Russia...and then the US/West says 'fuck that' and keeps the sanctions going, prompting Russia to continue the war. Thats when escalation is going to happen. That's a completely untenable end state for Ukraine. Why would they even consider a "deal" like that? They would be fools to agree to anything less than the restoration of Ukraine's Budapest Accord borders. Uggh, unless the US/NATO somehow put boots on the ground in Ukraine, or Putin 'dies from covid', that peace deal is the single best outcome Ukraine can hope for. Russia is a bunch of brutish, drunken oafs weilding ancient weapons built by commies... but they have an authoritarian regime, 140 million people, and a bottomless stockpile of dumb bombs and artillery. Collectively, Russia can institute a draft, zombie horde this out, taking insane casualties but steadily scouring ukrainian cities from the earth. Every day this war goes on, more of Ukraine is smashed to rubble. Already Mariupol looks like downtown Syria. Once this happens to every city, Ukraine (a poor country pre-invasion) will be effectively destroyed, destined to poverty and misery for decades barring a complete $100+ Billion rebuilding fund from the west. So, by comparison, that peace deal is pretty sweet; its essentially a status quo antebellum, recognizing the facts on the ground that existed pre-invasion. Sucks but thats reality. Marshall Plan, look it up. Ukraine is a strategic point of interest for the west and are more than likely to rebuild for them in return for super friendly trade deals. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:18:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Freiheit8472]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By retroangles: Link? Or even link to said puppet? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By retroangles: Originally Posted By Zam18th: Originally Posted By weptek911: Originally Posted By iggy1337: I like the fact that one of their installed puppets lasted one day or so before she was popped Thus is the fait of traitors and with all tose Stingers and ATGMS floating around no puppet should feel safe. Wait, what puppet was popped? I missed that. @iggy1337 Or even link to said puppet? Is it this one? Eta (I know they said it was a woman tho)  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:22:36 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Sucks but thats reality. That's your reality. What actually sucks is you trying to justify UA quitting when they're currently winning the war. Russia is losing lots of people, most units in combat are becoming ineffective, Russia has lost they're just trying to figure out how to end it with the least embarrassment. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:28:25 AM EDT
[#49]
There is no benefit to anyone from a restoration of the USSR. There's not a legitimate effective, non-corrupt functioning "communist" state. NATO will still be on the borders. He'll still have conflicts with China. Will he take the "Stans?" Besides the pretending to lead the communist world, what will he do about Islam?
If we allow the return and death of Ukraine (and we know what that means for the Ukrainians), when he threatens Warsaw and Paris and London and Washington? You can bet Warsaw will say "Goodbye, it's been nice!" and go to war. They'll trade glowing Americans and French and English cities for a chance to survive or die trying. Because they know the US will decide better them red or dead than us. China's sitting there knowing they'll get the scraps. |
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Posted: 3/28/2022 1:28:53 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Honda4828: Originally Posted By Eight_Ring: Originally Posted By Zam18th: Originally Posted By nightstalker: https://twitter.com/kimdotcom/status/1508009061564166147?s=21&t=Em_YnIAvysTMAXqZ-9cmVg Pretty much what I think is going on It must be disorienting for you to be exposed to an analysis which explores ideas beyond Putin bad/Putin Hitler. Read George Kennan's interview with the New York Times about NATO eastward expansion. You know who George Kennan was, right? And presumably all the never-Trumpers and Russia Collusion folks in the thread are cool with Thomas Friedman? https://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/02/opinion/foreign-affairs-now-a-word-from-x.html Nice paywall link. This Victoria Nuland leaked call says it all. |
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