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Posted: 2/6/2023 7:32:02 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 2/6/2023 7:32:49 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By elcope: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoUMvzSXgBIh1VU?format=jpg&name=medium Rocket assisted 155? |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 7:40:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By p3590: Why would invading Crimea be necessary/good compared to just cutting it off and dropping long range fires on it? Didn't we send some harpoons already which would make supplying it by sea increasingly dicey? There are two different ways to get back all the Ukrainian territory. One is fighting for every inch of it. The other is taking Crimea and leveraging a withdrawal from the mainland occupied territory. Taking Crimea first may short-circuit the need to fight bodily and bloodily through Lukansk and Donetsk. It has a strategic value of outsize proportion because of Russia’s European trade routes. Crimea is to Russian Black Sea trade as the UK is to northern European ports - you cannot have an Atlantic trade if UK is hostile to you. In the missile age, Russia can’t use its most valuable port if a hostile power holds Crimea. 1/3 to 1/2 of all European Russia’s sea trade goes through ports controlled by Crimea - mostly Novorossiysk on the mainland coast, not through the Don River (Rostov) - though that is important, also. Possession of Crimea can reduce that to near-zero. Ukraine doesn’t have to launch an Iran-style war on neutral shipping, necessarily. They just have to damage a few Russian-flagged vessels once they have Crimea and commercial shipping will cease on its own. Russia simply cannot allow that to happen - it’s an absolutely existential threat. Another strong point is that Crimea is much more conducive to maneuver warfare topographically. It also has the advantage of having a sea flank as the front advances for security, vs getting deeper into a cauldron with risky flanks in Luhansk, etc. This isn’t a certain strategy, but it’s an option if the Perekop Isthmus can be managed. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 7:40:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kncook: Rocket assisted 155? |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 7:42:29 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 2/6/2023 7:44:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: Would guess it's a base bleed projectile. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/6/2023 7:57:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: What happened to the second guy? There was one guy trying to drag along his wounded buddy. Then the video cuts to the one dude all by himself. The video says both end up drowning but we only actually see what happens to just one of them. Geez. What a fucked up video. The guy we see drown was likely fucked anyway, as he had blood coming from his mouth and possibly other areas. But he thrashed around in that water for nearly a minute before he finally stopped moving. I bet that seemed like an eternity for the poor bastard. I don't understand why he didn't try to roll over and get on his knees where he could push himself up. His legs and arms were obviously working. But I guess the dude just panicked. He was already seriously wounded, in pain, and in ice cold water with his clothing and gear waterlogged and weighing him down. I suppose being able to think in such a situation isn't a given. But damn, what a shitty way to go. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: There is a longer video, that explains what happened, they got hit with multiple grenades. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/10vglci/two_russian_soldiers_fall_into_a_creek_while/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb What happened to the second guy? There was one guy trying to drag along his wounded buddy. Then the video cuts to the one dude all by himself. The video says both end up drowning but we only actually see what happens to just one of them. Geez. What a fucked up video. The guy we see drown was likely fucked anyway, as he had blood coming from his mouth and possibly other areas. But he thrashed around in that water for nearly a minute before he finally stopped moving. I bet that seemed like an eternity for the poor bastard. I don't understand why he didn't try to roll over and get on his knees where he could push himself up. His legs and arms were obviously working. But I guess the dude just panicked. He was already seriously wounded, in pain, and in ice cold water with his clothing and gear waterlogged and weighing him down. I suppose being able to think in such a situation isn't a given. But damn, what a shitty way to go. I went through cold water training, even in a controlled environment with mental preparation and rescue personal standing by, I saw guys panicking within seconds. I could barely avoid to freak out, my buddy next to me was completely unable to react in any way after hitting the water. He just froze. It's hard to describe, but it feels like beeing drunk as fuck while thousands of needles stinging your body, your face, your hands - everything seems like it's in slowmotion. As a bonus your equipment is dragging you down.  These Orcs were most likely the whole day in the cold, allready suffering from a mild hypothermia and somebody was throwing granades at them, no wonder they were panicking. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:01:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Disclaimer: no nothing about artillery Would guess it's a base bleed projectile. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By ludder093: Would guess it's a base bleed projectile. You're right, base bleed projectiles.
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USA
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:02:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: It was a 120mm Israeli cluster mortar round with 24 submunition. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By theskuh: Originally Posted By Finslayer83: I thought we have seen video of use? Via someone's stocks. There was a video of some sort of air bursting cluster used against trenches. I think it was something homegrown? I can't remember. It was a 120mm Israeli cluster mortar round with 24 submunition. It was that video that convinced me of 2 things: - the devastating effectiveness cluster munitions could represent in Ukrainian hands, and second: - ??? (Where did that round come from? Hmmmm. . . ).  |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:04:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: …. And the gun? Haven’t the munitions been significantly upgraded?? Are we positive the 1 ‘s rounds just bounce off any part of a T-72?? ( doubt that’s true). I started looking into that the other day. Not an expert but read the following: TL,DR: 105mm development stopped, in most places, in the early 90s; but by then could get performance on par with early 120mm ammo. Wide variety out there. There were plenty of different sabot rounds developed for it. Technology relatively current to present 120mm ammo, just lacking in power factor and evolutionary tweaks made since those days. Should be more than adequate. The Israelis continued developing rounds into the early/mid ‘00s. A pretty comprehensive list of rounds developed of all types is here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/105%C3%97617mmR#Ammunition A while back I read a fair bit about tank-on-tank in DS and 2003, particular eye to ammo performance. One thing that stuck out to me was the number of through-and-through hits with 120mm DU. Here’s a link to the current GD 105mm tungsten round: https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/105mm-c76a1/ It’s using a penetrator 80% the weight of the 120mm penetrator. Let’s assume the same V. It’s likely going to be more than adequate, and have similar performance vs ERA (e.g., it will be defeated at a similar rate, where defeated). This is the updated version of the “FP105” round listed in the first link, btw. In general, it’s not going to be the gun/ammo in a 1A5 that is a limit, it will be the FCS and turret stabilization, etc. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:10:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: It was that video that convinced me of 2 things: - the devastating effectiveness cluster munitions could represent in Ukrainian hands, and second: - ??? (Where did that round come from? Hmmmm. . . ). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By theskuh: Originally Posted By Finslayer83: I thought we have seen video of use? Via someone's stocks. There was a video of some sort of air bursting cluster used against trenches. I think it was something homegrown? I can't remember. It was a 120mm Israeli cluster mortar round with 24 submunition. It was that video that convinced me of 2 things: - the devastating effectiveness cluster munitions could represent in Ukrainian hands, and second: - ??? (Where did that round come from? Hmmmm. . . ). I'm certainly not opposed to sending some 155mm Dpicm.
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:12:00 PM EDT
[#12]
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MO, USA
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:24:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: The same well-intentioned anti-mine groups are the ones blocking the use of cluster munitions by the Ukrainian army. 2 problems: - Russia ignores international norms, agreements, and treaties by using whatever weapon they want in Ukraine (short of bio/chem - that we know of), and - Ukraine’s smaller recruit pool desperately needs cluster munitions against the current Russian human wave attacks. I believe Putin wants all the prison inmate “volunteers” to die. He is just using them to deplete Ukrainian ammo supplies. But when the next Russian offensive is launched, Ukraine should have every option available to stop it; especially as it’s likely to be actual Rus military soldiers. Let Ukraine take off the gloves by giving them cluster munitions. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By GiggleSmith: Anybody remember those old Threads about French and Belgium farm fields being filled with unexploded World War I ordnance alone? Miles and miles of countryside and farmland loaded with unexploded shells, mortar rounds and assorted small arm ammunition both fired and unfired. There will be several decade-old rounds recovered in the upcoming planting season. Let's not forget the occasional finding a bomb from Part 2. I look at the pictures where there are shell craters or evidence of some artillery shell exploding and wonder how many duds are out there. Back then the dud rate was around 10% per shell or mortar bomb. Guessing that Modern Fuse Rates are around .01% that is still How Many Duds out there? How many vehicular and antipersonnel mines are out there  Recall that one man finding buried bodies in the woods, too. Looking north to the World War II battlefield of Kursk and I just have to ask: Did they ever recover all the mines that were laid back then The same well-intentioned anti-mine groups are the ones blocking the use of cluster munitions by the Ukrainian army. 2 problems: - Russia ignores international norms, agreements, and treaties by using whatever weapon they want in Ukraine (short of bio/chem - that we know of), and - Ukraine’s smaller recruit pool desperately needs cluster munitions against the current Russian human wave attacks. I believe Putin wants all the prison inmate “volunteers” to die. He is just using them to deplete Ukrainian ammo supplies. But when the next Russian offensive is launched, Ukraine should have every option available to stop it; especially as it’s likely to be actual Rus military soldiers. Let Ukraine take off the gloves by giving them cluster munitions. I agree, that would make a huge difference. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:30:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I started looking into that the other day. Not an expert but read the following: TL,DR: 105mm development stopped, in most places, in the early 90s; but by then could get performance on par with early 120mm ammo. Wide variety out there. There were plenty of different sabot rounds developed for it. Technology relatively current to present 120mm ammo, just lacking in power factor and evolutionary tweaks made since those days. Should be more than adequate. The Israelis continued developing rounds into the early/mid ‘00s. A pretty comprehensive list of rounds developed of all types is here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/105%C3%97617mmR#Ammunition A while back I read a fair bit about tank-on-tank in DS and 2003, particular eye to ammo performance. One thing that stuck out to me was the number of through-and-through hits with 120mm DU. Here’s a link to the current GD 105mm tungsten round: https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/105mm-c76a1/ It’s using a penetrator 80% the weight of the 120mm penetrator. Let’s assume the same V. It’s likely going to be more than adequate, and have similar performance vs ERA (e.g., it will be defeated at a similar rate, where defeated). This is the updated version of the “FP105” round listed in the first link, btw. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By Dominion21: …. And the gun? Haven’t the munitions been significantly upgraded?? Are we positive the 1 ‘s rounds just bounce off any part of a T-72?? ( doubt that’s true). I started looking into that the other day. Not an expert but read the following: TL,DR: 105mm development stopped, in most places, in the early 90s; but by then could get performance on par with early 120mm ammo. Wide variety out there. There were plenty of different sabot rounds developed for it. Technology relatively current to present 120mm ammo, just lacking in power factor and evolutionary tweaks made since those days. Should be more than adequate. The Israelis continued developing rounds into the early/mid ‘00s. A pretty comprehensive list of rounds developed of all types is here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/105%C3%97617mmR#Ammunition A while back I read a fair bit about tank-on-tank in DS and 2003, particular eye to ammo performance. One thing that stuck out to me was the number of through-and-through hits with 120mm DU. Here’s a link to the current GD 105mm tungsten round: https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/105mm-c76a1/ It’s using a penetrator 80% the weight of the 120mm penetrator. Let’s assume the same V. It’s likely going to be more than adequate, and have similar performance vs ERA (e.g., it will be defeated at a similar rate, where defeated). This is the updated version of the “FP105” round listed in the first link, btw. Holy crap - THANKS!  Now I have some light reading before bed tonight. I think we all share the view: send everything. The Ukrainians can and will figure out how best to use it, as if their lives depended on it (because their very lives do depend on the weapons we send). |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:36:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: There are two different ways to get back all the Ukrainian territory. One is fighting for every inch of it. The other is taking Crimea and leveraging a withdrawal from the mainland occupied territory. Taking Crimea first may short-circuit the need to fight bodily and bloodily through Lukansk and Donetsk. It has a strategic value of outsize proportion because of Russia’s European trade routes. Crimea is to Russian Black Sea trade as the UK is to northern European ports - you cannot have an Atlantic trade if UK is hostile to you. In the missile age, Russia can’t use its most valuable port if a hostile power holds Crimea. 1/3 to 1/2 of all European Russia’s sea trade goes through ports controlled by Crimea - mostly Novorossiysk on the mainland coast, not through the Don River (Rostov) - though that is important, also. Possession of Crimea can reduce that to near-zero. Ukraine doesn’t have to launch an Iran-style war on neutral shipping, necessarily. They just have to damage a few Russian-flagged vessels once they have Crimea and commercial shipping will cease on its own. Russia simply cannot allow that to happen - it’s an absolutely existential threat. Another strong point is that Crimea is much more conducive to maneuver warfare topographically. It also has the advantage of having a sea flank as the front advances for security, vs getting deeper into a cauldron with risky flanks in Luhansk, etc. This isn’t a certain strategy, but it’s an option if the Perekop Isthmus can be managed. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By p3590: Why would invading Crimea be necessary/good compared to just cutting it off and dropping long range fires on it? Didn't we send some harpoons already which would make supplying it by sea increasingly dicey? There are two different ways to get back all the Ukrainian territory. One is fighting for every inch of it. The other is taking Crimea and leveraging a withdrawal from the mainland occupied territory. Taking Crimea first may short-circuit the need to fight bodily and bloodily through Lukansk and Donetsk. It has a strategic value of outsize proportion because of Russia’s European trade routes. Crimea is to Russian Black Sea trade as the UK is to northern European ports - you cannot have an Atlantic trade if UK is hostile to you. In the missile age, Russia can’t use its most valuable port if a hostile power holds Crimea. 1/3 to 1/2 of all European Russia’s sea trade goes through ports controlled by Crimea - mostly Novorossiysk on the mainland coast, not through the Don River (Rostov) - though that is important, also. Possession of Crimea can reduce that to near-zero. Ukraine doesn’t have to launch an Iran-style war on neutral shipping, necessarily. They just have to damage a few Russian-flagged vessels once they have Crimea and commercial shipping will cease on its own. Russia simply cannot allow that to happen - it’s an absolutely existential threat. Another strong point is that Crimea is much more conducive to maneuver warfare topographically. It also has the advantage of having a sea flank as the front advances for security, vs getting deeper into a cauldron with risky flanks in Luhansk, etc. This isn’t a certain strategy, but it’s an option if the Perekop Isthmus can be managed.  Attached FileCouldn’t have said it better myself. Now if we could just quietly ship a couple dozen toads, AAPV-7 and a few mk v. or other riverine boat with some bang. Like I’ve said if you can put Sebastopol under fire, the war looses its luster quickly. Sebastopol under fire may even make Crimea an island, the soviets delved too deep and greedily there. Lots of bang in them old bunkers. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:44:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Welcome home GF!
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:44:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I started looking into that the other day. Not an expert but read the following: TL,DR: 105mm development stopped, in most places, in the early 90s; but by then could get performance on par with early 120mm ammo. Wide variety out there. There were plenty of different sabot rounds developed for it. Technology relatively current to present 120mm ammo, just lacking in power factor and evolutionary tweaks made since those days. Should be more than adequate. The Israelis continued developing rounds into the early/mid ‘00s. A pretty comprehensive list of rounds developed of all types is here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/105%C3%97617mmR#Ammunition A while back I read a fair bit about tank-on-tank in DS and 2003, particular eye to ammo performance. One thing that stuck out to me was the number of through-and-through hits with 120mm DU. Here’s a link to the current GD 105mm tungsten round: https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/105mm-c76a1/ It’s using a penetrator 80% the weight of the 120mm penetrator. Let’s assume the same V. It’s likely going to be more than adequate, and have similar performance vs ERA (e.g., it will be defeated at a similar rate, where defeated). This is the updated version of the “FP105” round listed in the first link, btw. In general, it’s not going to be the gun/ammo in a 1A5 that is a limit, it will be the FCS and turret stabilization, etc. Also we need to make sure they get the correct ammo. Israel is out. I’d assume someone somewhere has good 105mm rounds. Like I said before, tankers generally load up on the HE and heat rounds. What we’ve seen at least with the 125mm hits is that an He round will neutralize the tank, and more importantly the infantry salted everywhere in hides holes with rpg-22 and rpg-26s. I’d want some hesh or flechette rounds in my nato supplied tank. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:45:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/A96A8C19-C32C-48CB-B00E-96C7060ED14D_jpe-2701159.JPG Couldn't have said it better myself. Now if we could just quietly ship a couple dozen toads, AAPV-7 and a few mk v. or other riverine boat with some bang. Like I've said if you can put Sebastopol under fire, the war looses its luster quickly. Sebastopol under fire may even make Crimea an island, the soviets delved too deep and greedily there. Lots of bang in them old bunkers.  Welcome back
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:48:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jack67]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Holy crap - THANKS! Now I have some light reading before bed tonight. I think we all share the view: send everything. The Ukrainians can and will figure out how best to use it, as if their lives depended on it (because their very lives do depend on the weapons we send). NP. I was trying to get the 105 info together for my own info and was going to post it; your Q made me do it now vs. later. I’m not an expert at this but have tried to stay informed. Honestly, it looks like if they wrap nozh on the 1A5, it’s not much worse than the 2A4 in many regards. I read the 1A5 actually got a FCS based on the 2A4 at time of initial upgrade, even a slight evolution above it. It’s a shame there aren’t bolt-on Trophy-type systems for these Leopards as then they’d be even more formidable. A few hundred of those would go a long way right now (or maybe there is one; hmm, maybe read up more on that tonight…) ETA: a GF! Good to see you back and hear from you this morning. Thanks from all. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:48:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/A96A8C19-C32C-48CB-B00E-96C7060ED14D_jpe-2701159.JPG Couldn't have said it better myself. Now if we could just quietly ship a couple dozen toads, AAPV-7 and a few mk v. or other riverine boat with some bang. Like I've said if you can put Sebastopol under fire, the war looses its luster quickly. Sebastopol under fire may even make Crimea an island, the soviets delved too deep and greedily there. Lots of bang in them old bunkers. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:50:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/A96A8C19-C32C-48CB-B00E-96C7060ED14D_jpe-2701159.JPG Couldn't have said it better myself. Now if we could just quietly ship a couple dozen toads, AAPV-7 and a few mk v. or other riverine boat with some bang. Like I've said if you can put Sebastopol under fire, the war looses its luster quickly. Sebastopol under fire may even make Crimea an island, the soviets delved too deep and greedily there. Lots of bang in them old bunkers. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:50:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: I'm certainly not opposed to sending some 155mm Dpicm. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By theskuh: Originally Posted By Finslayer83: I thought we have seen video of use? Via someone's stocks. There was a video of some sort of air bursting cluster used against trenches. I think it was something homegrown? I can't remember. It was a 120mm Israeli cluster mortar round with 24 submunition. It was that video that convinced me of 2 things: - the devastating effectiveness cluster munitions could represent in Ukrainian hands, and second: - ??? (Where did that round come from? Hmmmm. . . ). I'm certainly not opposed to sending some 155mm Dpicm. I think they would look splendid out of the Archers 2 min shoot-n-scoot. Or even better, iirc they can do a 6 shot MRSI. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:52:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jpk33: Welcome home GF! Thanks, I only needed a few days unplugged to get back some yin, too much Yang round hear for a minute. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:53:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/A96A8C19-C32C-48CB-B00E-96C7060ED14D_jpe-2701159.JPG Couldn’t have said it better myself. Now if we could just quietly ship a couple dozen toads, AAPV-7 and a few mk v. or other riverine boat with some bang. Like I’ve said if you can put Sebastopol under fire, the war looses its luster quickly. Sebastopol under fire may even make Crimea an island, the soviets delved too deep and greedily there. Lots of bang in them old bunkers. They've definitely found themselves a balrog. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 8:56:24 PM EDT
[#25]
"Illegally sold weapons: a criminal gang was exposed in Odessa
The investigation found that the three men had organized the illegal sale of weapons and ammunition. They kept the entire "range" at the home of one of their comrades. The police documented the sale of two Kalashnikov assault rifles and cartridges for 150,000 hryvnias. The indictment against the two defendants was sent to court. The third was put on the wanted list."  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:00:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryI just imagine what it would have looked like had I not had a surgeon who happened to be a Ukrainian minuteman with an Ak. When I say that a crossection of infantry may include brain surgeons and particle physics professors soldiers welders I’m not kidding. I’m just glad my wife likes scars and I went fully prepared. I joke but when I lived in Ukraine, hospitals were byob. Luckily I foresaw the possible need for sutures.or it would have been dental floss or something. Guy did a fantastic job. Unfortunately I was a little dazed, I can’t remember his name. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:03:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryAgreed on both points.
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:05:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: "Illegally sold weapons: a criminal gang was exposed in Odessa The investigation found that the three men had organized the illegal sale of weapons and ammunition. They kept the entire "range" at the home of one of their comrades. The police documented the sale of two Kalashnikov assault rifles and cartridges for 150,000 hryvnias. The indictment against the two defendants was sent to court. The third was put on the wanted list." https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/48680/photo_2023-02-06_14-18-10_jpg-2701179.JPG |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:05:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gentlemanfarmer]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: "Illegally sold weapons: a criminal gang was exposed in Odessa The investigation found that the three men had organized the illegal sale of weapons and ammunition. They kept the entire "range" at the home of one of their comrades. The police documented the sale of two Kalashnikov assault rifles and cartridges for 150,000 hryvnias. The indictment against the two defendants was sent to court. The third was put on the wanted list." https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/48680/photo_2023-02-06_14-18-10_jpg-2701179.JPG Those vogs (agls) and .308 are worth a pretty penny nowadays. Criminal who hold those back, the shmel and rpgs too are shit heads. The rest is everywhere but I wonder who they were selling too. Hopefully they get properly dispersed forward. Odessa doesn’t surprise me, always been the seedy underbelly of crime there. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:06:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/A96A8C19-C32C-48CB-B00E-96C7060ED14D_jpe-2701159.JPG Couldn’t have said it better myself. Now if we could just quietly ship a couple dozen toads, AAPV-7 and a few mk v. or other riverine boat with some bang. Like I’ve said if you can put Sebastopol under fire, the war looses its luster quickly. Sebastopol under fire may even make Crimea an island, the soviets delved too deep and greedily there. Lots of bang in them old bunkers. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Originally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By p3590: Why would invading Crimea be necessary/good compared to just cutting it off and dropping long range fires on it? Didn't we send some harpoons already which would make supplying it by sea increasingly dicey? There are two different ways to get back all the Ukrainian territory. One is fighting for every inch of it. The other is taking Crimea and leveraging a withdrawal from the mainland occupied territory. Taking Crimea first may short-circuit the need to fight bodily and bloodily through Lukansk and Donetsk. It has a strategic value of outsize proportion because of Russia’s European trade routes. Crimea is to Russian Black Sea trade as the UK is to northern European ports - you cannot have an Atlantic trade if UK is hostile to you. In the missile age, Russia can’t use its most valuable port if a hostile power holds Crimea. 1/3 to 1/2 of all European Russia’s sea trade goes through ports controlled by Crimea - mostly Novorossiysk on the mainland coast, not through the Don River (Rostov) - though that is important, also. Possession of Crimea can reduce that to near-zero. Ukraine doesn’t have to launch an Iran-style war on neutral shipping, necessarily. They just have to damage a few Russian-flagged vessels once they have Crimea and commercial shipping will cease on its own. Russia simply cannot allow that to happen - it’s an absolutely existential threat. Another strong point is that Crimea is much more conducive to maneuver warfare topographically. It also has the advantage of having a sea flank as the front advances for security, vs getting deeper into a cauldron with risky flanks in Luhansk, etc. This isn’t a certain strategy, but it’s an option if the Perekop Isthmus can be managed. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/A96A8C19-C32C-48CB-B00E-96C7060ED14D_jpe-2701159.JPG Couldn’t have said it better myself. Now if we could just quietly ship a couple dozen toads, AAPV-7 and a few mk v. or other riverine boat with some bang. Like I’ve said if you can put Sebastopol under fire, the war looses its luster quickly. Sebastopol under fire may even make Crimea an island, the soviets delved too deep and greedily there. Lots of bang in them old bunkers. Awwww sheeeeet. There goes the neighborhood! |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:10:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By elcope: Agreed on both points. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By elcope: Agreed on both points. lol, +1 |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:12:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: More drone drops
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoSikVcWYAE0obh?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoSil5PWcAI_swC?format=jpg&name=medium You have an interesting air defense) rashists. We all see https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/2A3ADAD8-2167-4F5F-82B1-87F1B3E0926B-2700886.jpg https://t.me/atesh_ua/347 Brutal drone hit. Probably finishing off wounded from the large visible shell burst. Hopefully he didn’t suffer long. It’s interesting to see how common it is to hide one’s face from the camera once hit. Not making light of a man’s death, but I find it an interesting psychological reaction - probably universal. We just get to see it first hand now due to technology. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:16:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ContraHQ]
[#33]
Welcome Back gentlemanfarmer
 ETA: IIRC Jack67 owes us a story now 
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:19:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: More drone drops
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoSikVcWYAE0obh?format=jpg&name=medium https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoSil5PWcAI_swC?format=jpg&name=medium You have an interesting air defense) rashists. We all see https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/2A3ADAD8-2167-4F5F-82B1-87F1B3E0926B-2700886.jpg https://t.me/atesh_ua/347 It’s amazing to me the amount of programming that has been done to get all this different ammo (1-2 round hits) the variation in some manufacturers and countries is crazy. It would be akin to winning an NRA 300m match with 2 rounds of mk272 3 rounds of 55grain wolf and a Cuth with Hornady super performance 45grain. Truely a lot goes into making the fires accurate. They have apps etc but it also comes down to the majic nome eyeballing the arrows into catagories. Like the old HK hammer forge videos where some old dude with a jewels loop and preternatural ability to feel ounces or dozens of ounces of difference instead of .001 deviations. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:29:33 PM EDT
[#35]
Iron Doom is a possibility https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-considering-sending-iron-dome-to-ukraine-netanyahu-2023-2
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:34:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: Russia-Ukraine war: Wagner founder challenges Zelensky to a dogfight for control of Bakhmut Russia 'within firing distance' of last few roads out of 'Fortress Bakhmut' Ukraine's Zelenskiy invited to take part in EU summit Head of Russian Orthodox Church 'was a spy for the KGB' Couple notes on this Kiril has been a known KGB asset by everyone. Leaking it now is far too late. Too bad this information wasn’t disseminated broadly by west ala 2008. Now Russians won’t see or believe it. Maybe if there is some photography or video with recordings but even then the orthodox Russian Patriarch has harnessed no small amount of Russian society. They were growing like a cancer in Ukraine 2007-14. They built and bought property all over Ukraine including national treasures like perchedka lavas. Some of these churches were springboards for tactical operations in Crimea and the Donbass. There was one video early in the war showing a priest (with battle rattle) hustling GRU goons into Mercedes vans for take downs of local officials, police stations, armories. Etc Bhakmut is tougher than hell right now. Lots of cqb and it’s definitely a boxing match. There is a reason to hold it, not just the blood lost but next line would be Sloviansk, it’s too far to the next hardpoints. I mean real concrete bunker hardpoints. Should have trained guys on brads, f16s, and panzers 8 months ago just in case but alas. Wagners guys kill eachother as much as the UA lots of crazy vids out there for the voyeur of snuff films. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:36:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gentlemanfarmer]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: I went through cold water training, even in a controlled environment with mental preparation and rescue personal standing by, I saw guys panicking within seconds. I could barely avoid to freak out, my buddy next to me was completely unable to react in any way after hitting the water. He just froze. It's hard to describe, but it feels like beeing drunk as fuck while thousands of needles stinging your body, your face, your hands - everything seems like it's in slowmotion. As a bonus your equipment is dragging you down. These Orcs were most likely the whole day in the cold, allready suffering from a mild hypothermia and somebody was throwing granades at them, no wonder they were panicking. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: There is a longer video, that explains what happened, they got hit with multiple grenades. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/10vglci/two_russian_soldiers_fall_into_a_creek_while/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb What happened to the second guy? There was one guy trying to drag along his wounded buddy. Then the video cuts to the one dude all by himself. The video says both end up drowning but we only actually see what happens to just one of them. Geez. What a fucked up video. The guy we see drown was likely fucked anyway, as he had blood coming from his mouth and possibly other areas. But he thrashed around in that water for nearly a minute before he finally stopped moving. I bet that seemed like an eternity for the poor bastard. I don't understand why he didn't try to roll over and get on his knees where he could push himself up. His legs and arms were obviously working. But I guess the dude just panicked. He was already seriously wounded, in pain, and in ice cold water with his clothing and gear waterlogged and weighing him down. I suppose being able to think in such a situation isn't a given. But damn, what a shitty way to go. I went through cold water training, even in a controlled environment with mental preparation and rescue personal standing by, I saw guys panicking within seconds. I could barely avoid to freak out, my buddy next to me was completely unable to react in any way after hitting the water. He just froze. It's hard to describe, but it feels like beeing drunk as fuck while thousands of needles stinging your body, your face, your hands - everything seems like it's in slowmotion. As a bonus your equipment is dragging you down. These Orcs were most likely the whole day in the cold, allready suffering from a mild hypothermia and somebody was throwing granades at them, no wonder they were panicking. I’m guessing they had 45 seconds in that water before hypothermia. Second guy got fragged in the head, I’d guess he had TBI or brain trauma. Looked like death throes. First guy caught most of frag. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:38:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Wow, that brutal watching how quick drowning death came on. Video quality being better than the old clip made it much more brutal. Link for no reddit log in https://old.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/10vglci/two_russian_soldiers_fall_into_a_creek_while/ That's got to be one of the more disturbing things I've seen from this war. I mean, plenty of people die badly in wars, but being able to see this stuff from a bird's eye view is...something else. 
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USA
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:38:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: I'm certainly not opposed to sending some 155mm Dpicm. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By theskuh: Originally Posted By Finslayer83: I thought we have seen video of use? Via someone's stocks. There was a video of some sort of air bursting cluster used against trenches. I think it was something homegrown? I can't remember. It was a 120mm Israeli cluster mortar round with 24 submunition. It was that video that convinced me of 2 things: - the devastating effectiveness cluster munitions could represent in Ukrainian hands, and second: - ??? (Where did that round come from? Hmmmm. . . ). I'm certainly not opposed to sending some 155mm Dpicm. For context (older video; still a devastating round we should be sending to Ukraine)  155mm DPICM Dual-Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:38:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ContraHQ: Welcome Back gentlemanfarmer ETA: IIRC Jack67 owes us a story now I won’t welch. Actually had it in mind. I’ve been reading a new book on the subject since I said that - (macarthur/showdown with Truman). Want to make sure what I was told, he didn’t tell differently elsewhere or if it’s confirmed actually somewhere. I’ll do it within a day or so. ;) |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:39:23 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: I just imagine what it would have looked like had I not had a surgeon who happened to be a Ukrainian minuteman with an Ak. When I say that a crossection of infantry may include brain surgeons and particle physics professors soldiers welders I’m not kidding. I’m just glad my wife likes scars and I went fully prepared. I joke but when I lived in Ukraine, hospitals were byob. Luckily I foresaw the possible need for sutures.or it would have been dental floss or something. Guy did a fantastic job. Unfortunately I was a little dazed, I can’t remember his name. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: I just imagine what it would have looked like had I not had a surgeon who happened to be a Ukrainian minuteman with an Ak. When I say that a crossection of infantry may include brain surgeons and particle physics professors soldiers welders I’m not kidding. I’m just glad my wife likes scars and I went fully prepared. I joke but when I lived in Ukraine, hospitals were byob. Luckily I foresaw the possible need for sutures.or it would have been dental floss or something. Guy did a fantastic job. Unfortunately I was a little dazed, I can’t remember his name. Wow, trapshooter-that was THEE perfect response. Words couldn’t communicate that. Gfarmer is slowly becoming that guy you know that eats nails and non chalantly mentions shooting a guy in Reno, just to watch him die. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:40:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AoD]
[#42]
>>>>Thanks, I only needed a few days unplugged to get back some yin, too much Yang round hear for a minute.
Good to have you back. AoD |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:42:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/419667/A96A8C19-C32C-48CB-B00E-96C7060ED14D_jpe-2701159.JPG Couldn't have said it better myself. Now if we could just quietly ship a couple dozen toads, AAPV-7 and a few mk v. or other riverine boat with some bang. Like I've said if you can put Sebastopol under fire, the war looses its luster quickly. Sebastopol under fire may even make Crimea an island, the soviets delved too deep and greedily there. Lots of bang in them old bunkers. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:45:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: There is a longer video, that explains what happened, they got hit with multiple grenades. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/10vglci/two_russian_soldiers_fall_into_a_creek_while/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By klinc: Originally Posted By Hking: Originally Posted By klinc: Goes to war... Drowns in a shallow creek. I think that was blood coming out of his mouth near the beginning after the nade hit, so I don't think he had much more time on this earth anyways Yeah noticed that... either good bit of brain damage and/or already drowning in his own blood the way he was flopping around. There is a longer video, that explains what happened, they got hit with multiple grenades. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/10vglci/two_russian_soldiers_fall_into_a_creek_while/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb Where the guy died was off screen from the original shot (and Russian #2 nowhere to be seen) so he made it a decent way. Given the temperature it’s possible he was hypothermic by the end too. What a totally unnecessary waste. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:46:44 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:48:14 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SoCalExile:
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:51:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: It kinda looks like he was seizing. Was the other guy buried under the big pile of reeds? The editing chops out the progression from the airburst F-1 to the flopapotamus. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dracster: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By klinc: Originally Posted By Hking: Originally Posted By klinc: Goes to war... Drowns in a shallow creek. I think that was blood coming out of his mouth near the beginning after the nade hit, so I don't think he had much more time on this earth anyways Yeah noticed that... either good bit of brain damage and/or already drowning in his own blood the way he was flopping around. There is a longer video, that explains what happened, they got hit with multiple grenades. https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/10vglci/two_russian_soldiers_fall_into_a_creek_while/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb It kinda looks like he was seizing. Was the other guy buried under the big pile of reeds? The editing chops out the progression from the airburst F-1 to the flopapotamus. At one point he raised both arms to neck level which IIRC can indicate a concussion or an injury to the neck/head. It’s called “fencing response.” |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:53:34 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: For context (older video; still a devastating round we should be sending to Ukraine)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IroOVamQZHQQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By Dominion21: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By theskuh: Originally Posted By Finslayer83: I thought we have seen video of use? Via someone's stocks. There was a video of some sort of air bursting cluster used against trenches. I think it was something homegrown? I can't remember. It was a 120mm Israeli cluster mortar round with 24 submunition. It was that video that convinced me of 2 things: - the devastating effectiveness cluster munitions could represent in Ukrainian hands, and second: - ??? (Where did that round come from? Hmmmm. . . ). I'm certainly not opposed to sending some 155mm Dpicm. For context (older video; still a devastating round we should be sending to Ukraine) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IroOVamQZHQUniversally this is what guys at the front want. They say shit on suicide drones. Great on minimizing collateral but they expected a little more bang for the buck. Reality is that 1 asegai round or similar can be more effective than 3 155 rounds. DPCM would be a game changer but I don’t see it happening. We destroyed 60% of our stocks. Keep the other 40% for break the fire glass emergencies but we are not making more. The reality is that they need stuff that will cover a hectare in heath not 1000 sf. I hope somebody on high is listening. Exactly what I was referring to. Ukraine lost 300 guys in 3 minutes. 300 of there best from a thermobaric cluster bomb attack. They were in BMPs tanks BTRs etc.. lots more to that story but that happened east of Donetsk after they had successfully cut the rebel/Russian capital. We saw the Ruzz move their hurricanes urugans? up to the border but word was that DC redacted it from intel we were sharing. They were looking at 3-5 day old imagery and assumed they were good. They got clobbered and it wasn’t like they were not digging in etc. it literally sucked the insides out of guys. Talked to a survivor and the fact that he had to retrieve 270 of his buddies with turds sucked out of their mouths. We bear responsibility (Obama Biden) because it was their call. Told Ukraine we’ll provide isr then gave them old shitty intel. Had they been forewarned Donetsk and Strelkov would likely have been Harri Karried. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:55:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: I started looking into that the other day. Not an expert but read the following: TL,DR: 105mm development stopped, in most places, in the early 90s; but by then could get performance on par with early 120mm ammo. Wide variety out there. There were plenty of different sabot rounds developed for it. Technology relatively current to present 120mm ammo, just lacking in power factor and evolutionary tweaks made since those days. Should be more than adequate. The Israelis continued developing rounds into the early/mid ‘00s. A pretty comprehensive list of rounds developed of all types is here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/105%C3%97617mmR#Ammunition A while back I read a fair bit about tank-on-tank in DS and 2003, particular eye to ammo performance. One thing that stuck out to me was the number of through-and-through hits with 120mm DU. Here’s a link to the current GD 105mm tungsten round: https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/105mm-c76a1/ It’s using a penetrator 80% the weight of the 120mm penetrator. Let’s assume the same V. It’s likely going to be more than adequate, and have similar performance vs ERA (e.g., it will be defeated at a similar rate, where defeated). This is the updated version of the “FP105” round listed in the first link, btw. In general, it’s not going to be the gun/ammo in a 1A5 that is a limit, it will be the FCS and turret stabilization, etc. And let's remember that tanks spend most of their time engaging non-tank targets, such as troops, trucks, IFVs, or bunkers, and that still the majority of tank losses (historically) come from non-tank sources, such as artillery and land mines. So substituting Leo 1's in Mech and Light(er) Brigades could allow the Ukrainians to concentrate their better models into more-fully-equipped Armor Brigades. The Canadians used the MEXAS add-on armor kit, and apparently there is 105mm ammo out there as you found. IIRC the MEXAS array is made of ceramic by a German company(?), so would that take anything away from other priorities (ceramics for other vehicles)? I don't know enough about the remaining Leo 1 supply chain to say, but I bet it is pretty thin. |
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Posted: 2/6/2023 9:57:04 PM EDT
[#50]
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