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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:31:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#1]
Disengaging
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:33:07 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnh57: Does the 3:1 rule come into play now that Russia is in the defensive positions? Ukraine has to find a way to beat that ratio because they can't afford 3:1. Oh no, I said something objective that wasn't good for Ukraine! Am I going to get attacked in here? Should I start talking down to people like an asshole to get a head start? |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:33:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GTLandser: "If we are all thinking alike, then none of us is thinking at all" Keep it civil guys, but keep it coming. This thread has been an education on FA and ADA. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GTLandser: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: I definitely feel like there might be a bit of a "Whatever, let's just use the Patriots for everything." attitude among the Ukraine leadership. If it works, that's great - but if they run out because they are burning them up on cheap Iranian drones, then it's going to bite them on the ass eventually. On the other hand, if they don't have other solutions (like Gepards protecting all their sites), then it's easy to see how they end up with that mindset. So while I can see that it's potentially a huge problem on the horizon, I am not sure how much I blame them. I also wonder how centralized their decision making is. Do they have very clear policies on what to use an expensive Patriot for, and what not to use it for - or is it just up to the local unit, and they launch at EVERYTHING that comes inside their range? I think these are important and legitimate questions, and it's valuable to hear them voiced. "If we are all thinking alike, then none of us is thinking at all" Keep it civil guys, but keep it coming. This thread has been an education on FA and ADA. Absolutely. I actually like it when guys like daemon and R0N come in to offer their viewpoints, so long as it's done in good faith and with an aim to educate rather than condescend. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:35:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: They are not flying with impunity. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lorazepam: Originally Posted By daemon734: They absolutely are. But then again, you also think there is no Russian air superiority on the FLOT. They are not flying with impunity. Last report is that Russian aircraft no longer can fly at 6,000m but now have to fly at tree top when they get within 15 km of the front. That means any bombs or rockets are much less accurate. I would not call that “air superiority” at the front line!! 
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:36:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DK-Prof]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: My understanding is that the Patriot system can determine the likely impact area of incoming missile/drone and display whether that is a high value area or not. Like a field versus airbase. The operator can choose to let it pass or Intercept. Perhaps some of the drones getting through were allowed to if Patriot was the only available battery. It has shown it can intercept near 100% when in range. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: I definitely feel like there might be a bit of a "Whatever, let's just use the Patriots for everything." attitude among the Ukraine leadership. If it works, that's great - but if they run out because they are burning them up on cheap Iranian drones, then it's going to bite them on the ass eventually. On the other hand, if they don't have other solutions (like Gepards protecting all their sites), then it's easy to see how they end up with that mindset. So while I can see that it's potentially a huge problem on the horizon, I am not sure how much I blame them. I also wonder how centralized their decision making is. Do they have very clear policies on what to use an expensive Patriot for, and what not to use it for - or is it just up to the local unit, and they launch at EVERYTHING that comes inside their range? I think these are important and legitimate questions, and it's valuable to hear them voiced. My understanding is that the Patriot system can determine the likely impact area of incoming missile/drone and display whether that is a high value area or not. Like a field versus airbase. The operator can choose to let it pass or Intercept. Perhaps some of the drones getting through were allowed to if Patriot was the only available battery. It has shown it can intercept near 100% when in range. And that kind of capability is why I am curious about what exactly their RoE for Patriot launches is, and how centralized a policy/rules from upper leadership there is, or whether there's a lot of local discretion. If there's local discretion, then I think it's likely to be going to be pretty EASY for the local crews to err on the side of using a Patriot "just in case" even if it's just a Shaheed or other cheap drone. This is probably also complicated by the fact that this is a NEW system for Ukraine, so who even knows how well-articulated any policies or rules from upper leadership there is, and how well-integrated and planned the use to Patriot is with all of their other system. Trying to plan and strategize with new systems and technology constantly being added to your side must be insanely difficult and frustrating. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:37:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#6]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:37:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cypher15: Relevant land based missile launch tests here Yeah those SM-6 and Tomahawks on TELs would be a game changer. And are sorely needed. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:39:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: There's 8 at least on this launcher alone, not mentioning how many are on the other dozen launchers. I've been flat out told multiple times by prolific posters in this thread that this absolutely does not occur. If you are counting ROI, Iskander is about a 3:1 ratio to a Patriot, a Shahed is a 50:1. That matters less than the fact that they have an extremely finite magazine, each Patriot used on a drone is one more Iskander that gets through once they run dry. If you want the ROI on that, the Shahed 136's warhead is about 60lbs, an Iskander's is around 1500lbs NEW. The real story to this just shows the overall target selection and attrition problem that got Ukraine in the mess they are in with air defense in the first place. Patriot is not something they can not afford to squander regardless of ROI. They WILL stop being resupplied, there is no question about that. True but if the shitty Shithead drone is coming at the Patriot battery it's perfectly legit. How much does a Patriot battery cost? Do they just let the Shithead pass right over fingers crossed or shoot it the fuck down. And I think the vehicle in the picture is one of the two Patriot batteries HQ or radar or whatever rather than the individual launchers so it's also possible that another ADA asset shot down the Shithead drone using the Patriot radar or part of the Patriot network instead of an actual Patriot kill. I dont know. If the UA allowed their very precious Patriot battery to be taken out by a Shithead drone I bet you (and the rest of US) would be complaining about that too!! |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:40:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: trapsh00ter99]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Absolutely. I actually like it when guys like daemon and R0N come in to offer their viewpoints, so long as it's done in good faith and with an aim to educate rather than condescend. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:40:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HIPPO]
[#10]
ETA: last report I saw was 2 killed, 19 wounded (~4 hrs ago). |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:41:58 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: This is what everybody's talking about- there have to be assumptions in these calculations, and you round down. We get it, that's cool, do your thing. You think AIMs are in shorter supply than the PACs? Almighty?  I won't assume everyone else's motives for being in this thread. Me, I don't know what will happen, and that's why I like it. Ukraine, like the rest of the world, including Russia, has constrained resources. Much of the western world is finally pitching in the way they should've for the entire Cold War. Ukraine chooses to protect apartment buildings when maybe the right choice is not to. That's why I like this conflict. It is still, even without Prigozhin, the world's greatest soap opera. Maybe just sit back and enjoy the show. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Prime: 🤷♂️ I am not as confidently knowledgeable about every country’s Patriot stocks. They’re also doing pretty well with S-300, and that’s not mentioning NASAMS, IRIS-T, Gepard, and MANPADS. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3336-2872349.jpg You are referencing resources that are in even shorter supply. Hence why there is nothing at the FLOT supporting the offensive. Check oryx as to how many nasam and Iris systems have been given, bounce across when they were handed off, and assume some probably have been lost at this point. This is what everybody's talking about- there have to be assumptions in these calculations, and you round down. We get it, that's cool, do your thing. You think AIMs are in shorter supply than the PACs? Almighty? I won't assume everyone else's motives for being in this thread. Me, I don't know what will happen, and that's why I like it. Ukraine, like the rest of the world, including Russia, has constrained resources. Much of the western world is finally pitching in the way they should've for the entire Cold War. Ukraine chooses to protect apartment buildings when maybe the right choice is not to. That's why I like this conflict. It is still, even without Prigozhin, the world's greatest soap opera. Maybe just sit back and enjoy the show. One of the great attributes of the NASAM systems is the ability to use a wide variety of missiles including abundant A2A up to the AIM-120. The goal is a layered system with Patriot and IRSI-T as the big theatre umbrellas and smaller systems providing assault and front line coverage. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:42:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#12]
Disengaging
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:44:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#13]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:44:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _disconnector_: No one is claiming **ANYONES** opinions or views are beyond reproach. I'm just pointing out that folks that we generally tend to believe (people like ourselves assuming that you're a straight white guy) can be catastrophically wrong with the most simple and direct logical choices. Sometimes people completely unlike ourselves (a transsexual dude to gal) can be right about specific things. That's all! Fair. As a lesbian trapped in a man's body I appreciate this!! |
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:44:43 PM EDT
[#15]
JFC. I thought there was actual news but the thread jumped pages just because of a couple of Shitheads.
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:47:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By swede1986: The rate at which air defense missiles are depleted is a concern, which is no doubt why the Russians are throwing old missiles (like KH-22) and cheap drones (Shaheed) into the mix. The answer to that equation is fighter jets, like the Ukies have asked for. It doesn’t really matter whether those jets are old F16s, F18s, Gripen, or Rafale. They’re not going to be used to penetrate Russian AD, but to protect the Ukrainian rear. That was my 0.2 Krona. Back to the purse swinging and dick measuring. Excellent point. Ukraine says they have far more pilots than aircraft. They need more attack helicopters and F16s fir a variety of tasks and low speed Friné intercepts is one. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:48:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PolarBear416]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Nobody ever said it wasn't a legitimate military target. The question becomes if Ukraine has the capacity to expend 25% of their patriots against low value targets? Europe sure doesn't, and functionally neither do we. You can argue the viability and context all day but all that matters is that they are going to run out. That is an absolute fact. That Patriot in Kyiv is almost certainly there to protect Kyiv airport, Zelensky, and other senior military staff. While you say it's being used to shoot down drones, I think that's only if they get past a lot of other systems. The Gepard, which expends bullets, is taking down most of the drones. ETA No doubt you have some videos of Patriots taking down drones that got through everything else - but how common is that really? I bet not very. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:49:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Nobody ever said it wasn't a legitimate military target. The question becomes if Ukraine has the capacity to expend 25% of their patriots against low value targets? Europe sure doesn't, and functionally neither do we. You can argue the viability and context all day but all that matters is that they are going to run out. That is an absolute fact. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:51:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#19]
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USA
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:52:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Absolutely. I actually like it when guys like daemon and R0N come in to offer their viewpoints, so long as it's done in good faith and with an aim to educate rather than condescend. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Ruck: Originally Posted By GTLandser: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: I definitely feel like there might be a bit of a "Whatever, let's just use the Patriots for everything." attitude among the Ukraine leadership. If it works, that's great - but if they run out because they are burning them up on cheap Iranian drones, then it's going to bite them on the ass eventually. On the other hand, if they don't have other solutions (like Gepards protecting all their sites), then it's easy to see how they end up with that mindset. So while I can see that it's potentially a huge problem on the horizon, I am not sure how much I blame them. I also wonder how centralized their decision making is. Do they have very clear policies on what to use an expensive Patriot for, and what not to use it for - or is it just up to the local unit, and they launch at EVERYTHING that comes inside their range? I think these are important and legitimate questions, and it's valuable to hear them voiced. "If we are all thinking alike, then none of us is thinking at all" Keep it civil guys, but keep it coming. This thread has been an education on FA and ADA. Absolutely. I actually like it when guys like daemon and R0N come in to offer their viewpoints, so long as it's done in good faith and with an aim to educate rather than condescend. I agree. But sadly, it isn't. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:53:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I'm providing the same level of information sharing and discussion as anyone else in this thread. The only difference is its objective, which means it will be immediately challenged as a pro Russia stance. As it already is. I'm just curious as to how many times you guys can be proven wrong before you even attempt to take an objective look. Not sure what you are agitating about...You want Ukraine to use their Patriots more sparingly? Have more ROE restrictions? Or that they should get A LOT MORE Patriots? I dont think any of us know enough about the situation to get THIS upset. All we know is that someone in Ukraine painted a picture of a Shaheed drone on something. If the UA runs out of Patriots then you can call your Senator and demand that no replacements be sent. But dont forget they are defending their own lives, families, friends so I doubt they are more stupid or disinterested about ammo supply then us internet hero's. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:56:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Shaheds have a 1,800 KM range if this report is correct. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:57:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: RockNwood]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Is there an existing system that can fix this problem, or does something new need to be developed? This is going to be an issue for every war in the future. China could pump out saturation drones by the thousands. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By daemon734: Nobody ever said it wasn't a legitimate military target. The question becomes if Ukraine has the capacity to expend 25% of their patriots against low value targets? Europe sure doesn't, and functionally neither do we. You can argue the viability and context all day but all that matters is that they are going to run out. That is an absolute fact. Shaheds are $50,000 and have a 2,000km range from mobile launchers. So they realistically can’t be taken out pre-launch. The cost effective intercept is auto cannon like the Gephard or patrolling aircraft like attack helos or fighters. Manpads ($120K) would be the next best. A2A missile get into the $400K+ range. Even more cost effective would be to prevent Iranian shipments on the Caspian Sea or via air freight. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:57:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Send me a SIPR address and you can have all of it. For now we stick to OSINT verifiable sources, which you opted not to post because they are miniscule. They are atrociously small even if you made the assumption that none had been destroyed in the past 360 days, which is a bold statement for any piece of equipment in this war. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Send me a SIPR address and you can have all of it. For now we stick to OSINT verifiable sources, which you opted not to post because they are miniscule. They are atrociously small even if you made the assumption that none had been destroyed in the past 360 days, which is a bold statement for any piece of equipment in this war. I opted not to post because I'm not spending the entire day looking through Oryx for it. Don't get me wrong, I value their work, but it's not exactly easily searchable. One article said "Norway has pledged to send two NASAMS systems". So...no, ain't nobody got time for that. Originally Posted By daemon734: Sounds great, we should have this all wrapped up once NASAMs start getting pumped out in any relevant quantity around 2025-2028.
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:58:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#25]
Disengaging
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NZL
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Posted: 7/3/2023 3:59:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Sounds great, we should have this all wrapped up once NASAMs start getting pumped out in any relevant quantity around 2025-2028. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By RockNwood: One of the great attributes of the NASAM systems is the ability to use a wide variety of missiles including abundant A2A up to the AIM-120. The goal is a layered system with Patriot and IRSI-T as the big theatre umbrellas and smaller systems providing assault and front line coverage. Sounds great, we should have this all wrapped up once NASAMs start getting pumped out in any relevant quantity around 2025-2028. From my uneducated perspective, this points to a critical issue that I'd suspect everyone can agree on. Specifically the very slow pace at which production of critical defense items is being increased. It must be obvious to every western power by now that conflict eats resources at a pace far above what existing stockpiles can sustain. Yet moves towards a significant production increase are largely absent. This would appear to be a major problem in light of the current conflict, and the potential for conflict in the pacific. Why is there so little western political/media focus/effort on addressing what is an obvious problem in western defensive posture? Incompetence? Weakness? Treason? |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:01:59 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Generally you round down, not specifically. Oryx does not offer that level of granularity in my experience, but you're welcome to...you know...post your own work. That's my favorite part. He posts random google articles he only reads the headline to, which are for the most part opinion pieces, and wants meat in return. I think it was defense magazine, one of the defense oriented ones that stated the nsams were a boon to Ukraine because of all the ata missiles in europe that could be used in it. It can use most of the aim series which most places have a stock of. Those would be good at the front as well as high value target defense. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:02:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Wow, that was a kaboom.
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:02:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#29]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:05:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I'm not upset in the slightest. You guys keep equating an objective and different viewpoint as being agenda driven, and casual posting with fury and anger. It's pretty interesting. Your attempt to invoke the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy is interesting as well. Eventually certain munitions will run out. Wow, that's a mensa level take on the situation. So, maybe figure out a way(s) to end this sooner instead of going on and on and on about "muh patriots gonna run out" |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:05:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Shaheds are $50,000 and have a 2,000km range from mobile launchers. So they realistically can't be taken out pre-launch. The cost effective intercept is auto cannon like the Gephard or patrolling aircraft like attack helos or fighters. Manpads ($120K) would be the next best. A2A missile get into the $400K+ range. Even more cost effective would be to prevent Iranian shipments on the Caspian Sea or via air freight. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:06:31 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HIPPO:
DPICM to the courtesy phone. High concentrations of russian troops align with high russian troop losses. So far, anyway. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:07:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#33]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:09:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Oh neat, I believe I brought this up several times. You seem to think deep strike capability into Russia is the answer, which will most likely illicit the open transfer of drones and ballistic missiles from China, and even more from Iran. The Patriots and all TBM's are going to run out, you just seem to think it won't be as fast as it will be. Again, false dichotomy fallacy. Just use them to cover ALL of pre-14 Ukraine so they can actually kick out the Russians. Planes just might help as well. Things that make you go Hmmmm??? |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:10:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Current tally on delivered systems is NINE. Eight Iris-T's. They are extremely limited range systems, making them very marginal in overall effect. If you notice a trend on that page its 1 here, 3 there....and a lot of niche stuff that there is not a lot of ammunition depth for. A lot of that TBD stuff isn't until 2024-2025. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html . |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:11:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#36]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:17:11 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:20:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PortaJohnPicasso]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: I guess it's just that easy. They should put you in charge. Yep, two more that aren't there yet. Still nowhere near enough and the stockpile of NASAM systems that have already been produced have pretty much all been allocated to Ukraine already. It's almost like you're purposely ignoring the option to do other things besides just missiles. That's probably why so many people think you're a troll. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:21:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: You seem to think deep strike capability into Russia is the answer, which will most likely illicit the open transfer of drones and ballistic missiles from China, and even more from Iran. Isn't Russia going to pursue that regardless? |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:21:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Ukraine has to find a way to beat that ratio because they can't afford 3:1. Oh no, I said something objective that wasn't good for Ukraine! Am I going to get attacked in here? Should I start talking down to people like an asshole to get a head start? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Originally Posted By johnh57: Does the 3:1 rule come into play now that Russia is in the defensive positions? Ukraine has to find a way to beat that ratio because they can't afford 3:1. Oh no, I said something objective that wasn't good for Ukraine! Am I going to get attacked in here? Should I start talking down to people like an asshole to get a head start? How is that not good for Ukraine? If they suddenly get Soviet and start to use human wave attacks rather than probing for weak points it'll be a real problem. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:25:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Not sure what you are agitating about...You want Ukraine to use their Patriots more sparingly? Have more ROE restrictions? Or that they should get A LOT MORE Patriots? I dont think any of us know enough about the situation to get THIS upset. All we know is that someone in Ukraine painted a picture of a Shaheed drone on something. If the UA runs out of Patriots then you can call your Senator and demand that no replacements be sent. But dont forget they are defending their own lives, families, friends so I doubt they are more stupid or disinterested about ammo supply then us internet hero's. he comes in here with an attitude like a pit bull with a tooth ache, and wants everyone to agree with whatever comes flying out of his mouth, and kiss his ass with research. Gives no herd numbers, just opinion. There is debate, and there is being a jackass. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:25:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#42]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:27:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Shaheds are $50,000 and have a 2,000km range from mobile launchers. So they realistically can’t be taken out pre-launch. The cost effective intercept is auto cannon like the Gephard or patrolling aircraft like attack helos or fighters. Manpads ($120K) would be the next best. A2A missile get into the $400K+ range. Even more cost effective would be to prevent Iranian shipments on the Caspian Sea or via air freight. Israel to the white courtesy phone, please. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:27:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: This is what everybody's talking about- there have to be assumptions in these calculations, and you round down. We get it, that's cool, do your thing. You think AIMs are in shorter supply than the PACs? Almighty? I won't assume everyone else's motives for being in this thread. Me, I don't know what will happen, and that's why I like it. Ukraine, like the rest of the world, including Russia, has constrained resources. Much of the western world is finally pitching in the way they should've for the entire Cold War. Ukraine chooses to protect apartment buildings when maybe the right choice is not to. That's why I like this conflict. It is still, even without Prigozhin, the world's greatest soap opera. Maybe just sit back and enjoy the show. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Prime: 🤷♂️ I am not as confidently knowledgeable about every country’s Patriot stocks. They’re also doing pretty well with S-300, and that’s not mentioning NASAMS, IRIS-T, Gepard, and MANPADS. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3336-2872349.jpg You are referencing resources that are in even shorter supply. Hence why there is nothing at the FLOT supporting the offensive. Check oryx as to how many nasam and Iris systems have been given, bounce across when they were handed off, and assume some probably have been lost at this point. This is what everybody's talking about- there have to be assumptions in these calculations, and you round down. We get it, that's cool, do your thing. You think AIMs are in shorter supply than the PACs? Almighty? I won't assume everyone else's motives for being in this thread. Me, I don't know what will happen, and that's why I like it. Ukraine, like the rest of the world, including Russia, has constrained resources. Much of the western world is finally pitching in the way they should've for the entire Cold War. Ukraine chooses to protect apartment buildings when maybe the right choice is not to. That's why I like this conflict. It is still, even without Prigozhin, the world's greatest soap opera. Maybe just sit back and enjoy the show. I think the UK supplied a lot of older aim-120's for the nasam systems, among other countries. There are more NASAM systems coming in a few months, and a lot of other countries besides the U.S. can supply the missiles for them. Another thing to consider is the Ukrainian air force tries to shoot down Shaheds and cruise missiles with their air to air weapons. I'm guessing by Fall, if the Ukrainians get F-16's along with the expanded air defense network, they will become more effective without having to let the Patriot or SAMP-T have to engage drones as much. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:29:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#45]
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:29:30 PM EDT
[#46]
This thread would be about 2500 posts if all the purse swinging were deleted
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:30:46 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Current tally on delivered systems is NINE. Eight Iris-T's. They are extremely limited range systems, making them very marginal in overall effect. If you notice a trend on that page its 1 here, 3 there....and a lot of niche stuff that there is not a lot of ammunition depth for. A lot of that TBD stuff isn't until 2024-2025 at the earliest. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/04/answering-call-heavy-weaponry-supplied.html Sure thing. How many do they have? How long do the launchers take to make? What's the range? You casually read stuff and sit smugly content that all problems have been solved, when you don't know enough about it to even articulate the problems. Tell us oh wise one what is the solution? I will leave you off ignore long enough for a polite intelligent answer. Who am I kidding, you wont do either. |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:31:54 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Deep strike missiles are cool until a single one goes over the border, then this problem gets exponentially worse. BTW, what other solutions have you provided, besides...well...providing missiles...? I'm genuinely curious. We all surrender to stronk Russia! |
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:31:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#49]
Disengaging
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Posted: 7/3/2023 4:33:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#50]
Disengaging
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