[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 136 of 142)
 Sig P320: Anvil 0151 The people who are paying attention aren't saying (and any that are saying it should stop) that there is no human in the loop on the ND/UDs. We're saying the human in the loop that failed was in the design or manufacturing process, who didn't do what they should have to make sure the gun doesn't act unexpectedly under otherwise normal conditions. The training and knowing your tools and job fail, many are contending, happened in sig's factory, and people are pointing at the correlation between a previous company's problems and sig's current problems under the same leadership, as a marker pointing towards this. I presume novak very much has a life so he's not got the time to wade through a few dumpsterfulls of of garbage to find the spot on comments and commentators, and the dumpster-system is built to bring the bad takes to the top and shove them in your face. |
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Quoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Z4-rfeKpMThe people who are paying attention aren't saying (and any are saying should stop) that there is no human in the loop on the ND/UDs. We're saying the human in the loop that failed was in the design or manufacturing process, who didn't do what they should have to make sure the gun doesn't act unexpectedly under otherwise normal conditions. The training and knowing your tools and job fail, many are contending, happened in sig's factory, and people are pointing at the correlation between a previous company's problems and sig's current problems under the same leadership, as a marker pointing towards this. I presume novak very much has a life so he's not got the time to wade through a few dumpsterfulls of of garbage to find the spot on comments and commetnators, and the dumpster-system is built to bring the bad takes to the top and shove them in your face. I expected better from him. |
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Quoted: I expected better from him. Quoted: Quoted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Z4-rfeKpMThe people who are paying attention aren't saying (and any are saying should stop) that there is no human in the loop on the ND/UDs. We're saying the human in the loop that failed was in the design or manufacturing process, who didn't do what they should have to make sure the gun doesn't act unexpectedly under otherwise normal conditions. The training and knowing your tools and job fail, many are contending, happened in sig's factory, and people are pointing at the correlation between a previous company's problems and sig's current problems under the same leadership, as a marker pointing towards this. I presume novak very much has a life so he's not got the time to wade through a few dumpsterfulls of of garbage to find the spot on comments and commetnators, and the dumpster-system is built to bring the bad takes to the top and shove them in your face. I expected better from him. Yeah, I usually have a high opinion of Mr. Novak, but I think he really missed the mark here. |
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Doesn't matter anymore. On GunBroker, new base models are going for $250 and higher end models are selling for half of what they were. Gun stores aren't buying anymore. New stock sits on the shelf. The gunstore I moonlight at is probably the largest single location gun seller in the state, by volume. We sold *one* 320- an M17- in the month of August, compared to around 40 Rugers and 40 Glocks. Yesterday two guys were looking at a metal framed M&P. One said "it's a lot less than a 320 AXG". The other said "and it won't shoot you". When the 320 comes up in conversation it's as a punchline. 365 sales are down too; collateral damage. The 320 is dead, and if SIG's not careful, they'll follow. I can't imagine them handling it worse. There may be controversy about the uncommanded discharges, but almost everyone agrees SIG's response has been disastrous. |
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Quoted: Yeah, I usually have a high opinion of Mr. Novak, but I think he really missed the mark here. The lucky thing for Sig is Novak's opinion carries a lot more weight than many internet commenters. AR15.com posts a thread about an Airman being shot and over a weekend hundreds of comments condemn the safety of the 320. Then 72 hours later is comes out that it was human influence that got the Airman shot just like Novak said in his video. Then we have all the comments of videos about seeing pistols fire on CCTV at police stations. All Sig does in court is show the gorilla walking across the screen video that most of us have seen and that casts doubt on the video evidence aspect. I don't think Sig actually cares about the P320 reputation now. They have the DoD contract and a few million pistols have already been sold. Sig made their money already on the P320 and will probably move on. |
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Quoted: The lucky thing for Sig is Novak's opinion carries a lot more weight than many internet commenters. AR15.com posts a thread about an Airman being shot and over a weekend hundreds of comments condemn the safety of the 320. Then 72 hours later is comes out that it was human influence that got the Airman shot just like Novak said in his video. Then we have all the comments of videos about seeing pistols fire on CCTV at police stations. All Sig does in court is show the gorilla walking across the screen video that most of us have seen and that casts doubt on the video evidence aspect. I don't think Sig actually cares about the P320 reputation now. They have the DoD contract and a few million pistols have already been sold. Sig made their money already on the P320 and will probably move on. Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, I usually have a high opinion of Mr. Novak, but I think he really missed the mark here. The lucky thing for Sig is Novak's opinion carries a lot more weight than many internet commenters. AR15.com posts a thread about an Airman being shot and over a weekend hundreds of comments condemn the safety of the 320. Then 72 hours later is comes out that it was human influence that got the Airman shot just like Novak said in his video. Then we have all the comments of videos about seeing pistols fire on CCTV at police stations. All Sig does in court is show the gorilla walking across the screen video that most of us have seen and that casts doubt on the video evidence aspect. I don't think Sig actually cares about the P320 reputation now. They have the DoD contract and a few million pistols have already been sold. Sig made their money already on the P320 and will probably move on. Once the sig horse has been run to death by , I wonder what the next horse is that will be ridden to death. At that point it'll be a pattern and it can shape people's investing choices. "The last two died because of , I'm betting it'll happen again because of too." |
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Quoted: Doesn't matter anymore. On GunBroker, new base models are going for $250 and higher end models are selling for half of what they were. Gun stores aren't buying anymore. New stock sits on the shelf. The gunstore I moonlight at is probably the largest single location gun seller in the state, by volume. We sold *one* 320- an M17- in the month of August, compared to around 40 Rugers and 40 Glocks. Yesterday two guys were looking at a metal framed M&P. One said "it's a lot less than a 320 AXG". The other said "and it won't shoot you". When the 320 comes up in conversation it's as a punchline. 365 sales are down too; collateral damage. The 320 is dead, and if SIG's not careful, they'll follow. I can't imagine them handling it worse. There may be controversy about the uncommanded discharges, but almost everyone agrees SIG's response has been disastrous. |
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Quoted: Doesn't matter anymore. On GunBroker, new base models are going for $250 and higher end models are selling for half of what they were. Gun stores aren't buying anymore. New stock sits on the shelf. The gunstore I moonlight at is probably the largest single location gun seller in the state, by volume. We sold *one* 320- an M17- in the month of August, compared to around 40 Rugers and 40 Glocks. Yesterday two guys were looking at a metal framed M&P. One said "it's a lot less than a 320 AXG". The other said "and it won't shoot you". When the 320 comes up in conversation it's as a punchline. 365 sales are down too; collateral damage. The 320 is dead, and if SIG's not careful, they'll follow. I can't imagine them handling it worse. There may be controversy about the uncommanded discharges, but almost everyone agrees SIG's response has been disastrous. I wonder how many they've sold? |
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https://rcmp.ca/en/pei/news/2025/09/discharge-police-firearm-milton-station-determined-be-non-criminal On September 4, 2025 at 11:33 Queens District RCMP received a report that a police officer’s holstered firearm discharged outside the PEI Provincial Correctional Center in Milton Station. RCMP Major Crime conducted an investigation and learned that an officer with Charlottetown Police Services was on-duty outside the jail when their sidearm went off in the holster. Through video evidence RCMP were able to determine the officer’s handgun was holstered and not being manipulated by the officer at the time. No one was injured in this incident. “In this case, the RCMP were requested to assist in making a determination in if any criminality was involved or how the firearm was handled prior to discharge. Through video evidence, it is clear that the Charlottetown Police Service Officer was in the course of his duties exiting his police vehicle when the gun discharged in the holster without being handled. We are conducting further investigation and analysis into that firearm and holster to determine how it came to fire without being handled,” said Chief Superintendent Kevin Lewis of the PEI RCMP. I don't see any public info indicating what firearm Charlottetown Police use, however pictures on their Twitter page (such as this one from May 15th, 2024 or this one from May 8th, 2024) appear to show either P320 XFull or P320 XCarry. ETA: apparently twitter links are blocked? Cold links: https://x.com/ChtownPolice/status/1790796896350433351/photo/1
https://x.com/ChtownPolice/status/1788214677689786704/photo/1 |
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Quoted: I’m not cranked up at all. If some cuss words offend you I don’t care. And it did follow what I said. You posted a stupid article with the intention of trying to spread more bad publicity towards sig. they already are fucking up left and right without your contribution. You posting stupid shit like an article about some firearms instructor using a situation to get new pistols just because is as dumb as me arguing with you about a pistol. Go reflect on that instead of thinking you actually got me mad. Quoted: Quoted: You're wound a little to tight for your own good there. I only posted because it's yet another PD considering dropping the 320 and your reaction was to go defensive as if it was a personal attack on you, and now you're cranked up because I didn't follow along with what you wanted. I’m not cranked up at all. If some cuss words offend you I don’t care. And it did follow what I said. You posted a stupid article with the intention of trying to spread more bad publicity towards sig. they already are fucking up left and right without your contribution. You posting stupid shit like an article about some firearms instructor using a situation to get new pistols just because is as dumb as me arguing with you about a pistol. Go reflect on that instead of thinking you actually got me mad. how about both of yall dial it down a bit |
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Quoted: If they were smart, they would discontinue it, cite internet trolls, and try to distance themselves from the problems. As they'll be clawing for more gov contracts, I'm doubtful this will be the path they take. Considering the amount of good will that they have burned through with their customer base, they are going to have to focus on gov contracts because it’ll take years to undo the damage they’ve done to their brand with how they’ve handled the P320 controversy. Knowing that I still have customers that will not look at a Springfield, Sig’s path to redemption may be a long one. |
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Quoted: Considering the amount of good will that they have burned through with their customer base, they are going to have to focus on gov contracts because it’ll take years to undo the damage they’ve done to their brand with how they’ve handled the P320 controversy. Knowing that I still have customers that will not look at a Springfield, Sig’s path to redemption may be a long one. People are commenting that the 2k11 is the first decent Kimber product in 20 years. |
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Quoted: Considering the amount of good will that they have burned through with their customer base, they are going to have to focus on gov contracts because it'll take years to undo the damage they've done to their brand with how they've handled the P320 controversy. Knowing that I still have customers that will not look at a Springfield, Sig's path to redemption may be a long one. Quoted: Quoted: If they were smart, they would discontinue it, cite internet trolls, and try to distance themselves from the problems. As they'll be clawing for more gov contracts, I'm doubtful this will be the path they take. Considering the amount of good will that they have burned through with their customer base, they are going to have to focus on gov contracts because it'll take years to undo the damage they've done to their brand with how they've handled the P320 controversy. Knowing that I still have customers that will not look at a Springfield, Sig's path to redemption may be a long one. |
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Quoted: Let's get this thread to 320 pages, then we can drop it.  Quoted: Quoted: 134 pages already. Good grief. The more this thread goes on the more I love my Colt 1911's and my CZ75's . I might just buy one more of each for Christs sake. . Let's get this thread to 320 pages, then we can drop it. Shit post to page 320? |
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Quoted: People are commenting that the 2k11 is the first decent Kimber product in 20 years. Quoted: Quoted: Considering the amount of good will that they have burned through with their customer base, they are going to have to focus on gov contracts because it’ll take years to undo the damage they’ve done to their brand with how they’ve handled the P320 controversy. Knowing that I still have customers that will not look at a Springfield, Sig’s path to redemption may be a long one. People are commenting that the 2k11 is the first decent Kimber product in 20 years. The 2k11 seems to be a home run. Beyond that, there seem to be fewer complaints with their traditional 1911s, their "next gen" 1911s are pretty nice, and the KDS9c is really neat. Kimber seems to have changed course dramatically in the last few years. Their approach to QC and CS are different, and they're aggressively repositioning themselves to sell to younger shooters instead of older collectors. |
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Quoted: Considering the amount of good will that they have burned through with their customer base, they are going to have to focus on gov contracts because it’ll take years to undo the damage they’ve done to their brand with how they’ve handled the P320 controversy. Knowing that I still have customers that will not look at a Springfield, Sig’s path to redemption may be a long one. Attached File |
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Quoted: https://rcmp.ca/en/pei/news/2025/09/discharge-police-firearm-milton-station-determined-be-non-criminal On September 4, 2025 at 11:33 Queens District RCMP received a report that a police officer’s holstered firearm discharged outside the PEI Provincial Correctional Center in Milton Station. RCMP Major Crime conducted an investigation and learned that an officer with Charlottetown Police Services was on-duty outside the jail when their sidearm went off in the holster. Through video evidence RCMP were able to determine the officer’s handgun was holstered and not being manipulated by the officer at the time. No one was injured in this incident. “In this case, the RCMP were requested to assist in making a determination in if any criminality was involved or how the firearm was handled prior to discharge. Through video evidence, it is clear that the Charlottetown Police Service Officer was in the course of his duties exiting his police vehicle when the gun discharged in the holster without being handled. We are conducting further investigation and analysis into that firearm and holster to determine how it came to fire without being handled,” said Chief Superintendent Kevin Lewis of the PEI RCMP. I don't see any public info indicating what firearm Charlottetown Police use, however pictures on their Twitter page (such as this one from May 15th, 2024 or this one from May 8th, 2024) appear to show either P320 XFull or P320 XCarry. ETA: apparently twitter links are blocked? Cold links: https://x.com/ChtownPolice/status/1790796896350433351/photo/1 https://x.com/ChtownPolice/status/1788214677689786704/photo/1 This has apparently been confirmed to have been a P320. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sig-sauer-p320-canadian-armed-forces-charlottetown-police-1.7631705 The handgun at the centre of an RCMP investigation on Prince Edward Island has been the subject of a flurry of lawsuits and counter-lawsuits involving its manufacturer — and was recently acquired in large numbers by the Canadian Armed Forces. The pistol, a SIG Sauer P320, allegedly misfired while in a Charlottetown police officer's holster on Sept. 4. It was just a matter of time. I look forward to seeing the video of this one, hopefully. RCMP mentioned they had reviewed it and found the officer not at fault. |
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Quoted: Considering the amount of good will that they have burned through with their customer base, they are going to have to focus on gov contracts because it’ll take years to undo the damage they’ve done to their brand with how they’ve handled the P320 controversy. Knowing that I still have customers that will not look at a Springfield, Sig’s path to redemption may be a long one. It's well past time that your customers move on... |
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Quoted: It's well past time that your customers move on... Why should they move on? The deal with the devil that Springfield made so they could keep operating in Illinois ended up putting half of the FFLs in Illinois out of business. They could have spent that money fighting the law in court, but they instead chose to prop up Democrats so they could get favorable treatment. LMT took the high road and moved to Iowa. Springfield could have done the same had their legal options run out. Geneseo is spitting distance from the Mississippi and freedom in Davenport. |
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New Story on CBS Austin: https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/it-just-went-off-texas-officers-sound-alarm-on-sig-sauers-p320-pistol# That has the new video at the top and then some more below. |
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Quoted: New Story on CBS Austin: https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/it-just-went-off-texas-officers-sound-alarm-on-sig-sauers-p320-pistol# That has the new video at the top and then some more below. The P320 needs more sacrifices it seems. |
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Quoted: SIG is racking up those WIAs. The P320 needs more sacrifices it seems. Quoted: Quoted: New Story on CBS Austin: https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/it-just-went-off-texas-officers-sound-alarm-on-sig-sauers-p320-pistol# That has the new video at the top and then some more below. The P320 needs more sacrifices it seems. |
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Unless Sig changes something in their stand, they will have to live with a forever damaged reputation of allowing out poor quality, dangerous firearms and that is unfortunate because before this P320 incident, I would have put Sig among the top quality manufacturers in the world along with FN, Glock, Beretta and CZ. Unfortunately they have been dropped off any list I would use. But they still retain the ability to regain their place on that list if they issue some kind of recall, or otherwise accept responsibility. But I understand that they fear that any acceptance of responsibility may result in more liability. Apparently the Sig bean counters believe that it will be cheaper to not accept any responsibility or do a recall. |
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Quoted: Unless Sig changes something in their stand, they will have to live with a forever damaged reputation of allowing out poor quality, dangerous firearms and that is unfortunate because before this P320 incident, I would have put Sig among the top quality manufacturers in the world along with FN, Glock, Beretta and CZ. Unfortunately they have been dropped off any list I would use. But they still retain the ability to regain their place on that list if they issue some kind of recall, or otherwise accept responsibility. But I understand that they fear that any acceptance of responsibility may result in more liability. Apparently the Sig bean counters believe that it will be cheaper to not accept any responsibility or do a recall. Objectively, SIG has put out a fair amount of trash for quite a few yeaes. They catch people with "lifestyle" branding and marketing then failed to support it not too much later when the guns inevitably start having issues. I'm honestly attempting to be kind here in saying it, they really don't make top quality anything. The 365 is the best gun they make IMO and other than a great size to capacity ratio there isn't really anything exceptional about it. The Euro Sig designs are different and came prior to the Cohenizing. |
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Quoted: I'm honestly attempting to be kind here in saying it, they really don't make top quality anything. I would say the MPX is market-leading, but could be dethroned. It seems to have had a lot of resources put into it from an engineering standpoint. If you switch back and forth between a MPX and a standard blowback 9mm AR, the MPX is mind blowing. And compared to most other designs on the market that aren't straight blowback, it retains the AR feel and manual of arms as well as can be asked for. It doesn't sell well and that's down to price. I think $2k for what is at the end of the day a toy is just too much for a lot of folks when $1k or less can get you 80% of what the MPX offers, and a $2k homebrew PCC can be pretty darn good if you're willing to go down all the rabbit holes to get the thing running right and tame the recoil. |
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Quoted: I would say the MPX is market-leading, but could be dethroned. It seems to have had a lot of resources put into it from an engineering standpoint. If you switch back and forth between a MPX and a standard blowback 9mm AR, the MPX is mind blowing. And compared to most other designs on the market that aren't straight blowback, it retains the AR feel and manual of arms as well as can be asked for. It doesn't sell well and that's down to price. I think $2k for what is at the end of the day a toy is just too much for a lot of folks when $1k or less can get you 80% of what the MPX offers, and a $2k homebrew PCC can be pretty darn good if you're willing to go down all the rabbit holes to get the thing running right and tame the recoil. Quoted: Quoted: I'm honestly attempting to be kind here in saying it, they really don't make top quality anything. I would say the MPX is market-leading, but could be dethroned. It seems to have had a lot of resources put into it from an engineering standpoint. If you switch back and forth between a MPX and a standard blowback 9mm AR, the MPX is mind blowing. And compared to most other designs on the market that aren't straight blowback, it retains the AR feel and manual of arms as well as can be asked for. It doesn't sell well and that's down to price. I think $2k for what is at the end of the day a toy is just too much for a lot of folks when $1k or less can get you 80% of what the MPX offers, and a $2k homebrew PCC can be pretty darn good if you're willing to go down all the rabbit holes to get the thing running right and tame the recoil. Comparing a purpose-built weapon to a platform that was converted is apples to oranges. I get what you're saying re: AR ergos, but past that there's not much point in comparing the two, 9mm blowback ARs are...less than ideal. |
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Quoted: I would say the MPX is market-leading, but could be dethroned. It seems to have had a lot of resources put into it from an engineering standpoint. If you switch back and forth between a MPX and a standard blowback 9mm AR, the MPX is mind blowing. And compared to most other designs on the market that aren't straight blowback, it retains the AR feel and manual of arms as well as can be asked for. It doesn't sell well and that's down to price. I think $2k for what is at the end of the day a toy is just too much for a lot of folks when $1k or less can get you 80% of what the MPX offers, and a $2k homebrew PCC can be pretty darn good if you're willing to go down all the rabbit holes to get the thing running right and tame the recoil. Do they still support gen1 with parts and service? |
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Quoted: You know, it kind of seemed like this was cycling down and I was wondering if I was overreacting to it, but then another story pops up. This is ridiculous. Stupid 320's I could have had two Glocks or M&Ps set up with the money that went to Sig. |
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Quoted: Comparing a purpose-built weapon to a platform that was converted is apples to oranges. I get what you're saying re: AR ergos, but past that there's not much point in comparing the two, 9mm blowback ARs are...less than ideal. So I've probably been exposed to a lot more PCCs than most having staffed major USPSA matches where the PCC division is very popular. 9mm blowback ARs are what win at nationals. I mean, Max Leograndis is what wins nationals - I think he's up to like 8 in a row or something ridiculous. But he does it with a blowback 9mm AR, and so to most of his closest competitors. These days, there's a healthy market of blowback 9mm PCCs that have AR ergos and manual of arms, but are not converted from anything. Bespoke upper and lower receivers, the designs continue to get better and better even if a lot of them are still direct blowback. Without getting into the weeds on what's most popular for competition, I would say the closest direct-blowback point of comparison to the MPX is the DD PCC series. Like the MPX, it doesn't use a standard length upper or lower receiver (which is annoying for parts compatibility - particularly charging handles - but makes the gun more compact.) The PSA AR-V is also very compelling for the price point and uses CZ Scorpion mags like the DD does. There are also a variety of these that have added some form of delayed blowback. I think CMMG might have been the first, but it hasn't really caught on. The JP-5 is well regarded in competition circles, but be ready for sticker shock. Most are still using JP's older direct blowback PCC simply because it has more compatibility with standard parts. All this is to say that no, it's not pointless to compare the MPX to direct blowback ARs, because at the end of the day direct blowback ARs are the majority of the competitive shooting space. |
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Quoted: So I've probably been exposed to a lot more PCCs than most having staffed major USPSA matches where the PCC division is very popular. 9mm blowback ARs are what win at nationals. I mean, Max Leograndis is what wins nationals - I think he's up to like 8 in a row or something ridiculous. But he does it with a blowback 9mm AR, and so to most of his closest competitors. These days, there's a healthy market of blowback 9mm PCCs that have AR ergos and manual of arms, but are not converted from anything. Bespoke upper and lower receivers, the designs continue to get better and better even if a lot of them are still direct blowback. Without getting into the weeds on what's most popular for competition, I would say the closest direct-blowback point of comparison to the MPX is the DD PCC series. Like the MPX, it doesn't use a standard length upper or lower receiver (which is annoying for parts compatibility - particularly charging handles - but makes the gun more compact.) The PSA AR-V is also very compelling for the price point and uses CZ Scorpion mags like the DD does. There are also a variety of these that have added some form of delayed blowback. I think CMMG might have been the first, but it hasn't really caught on. The JP-5 is well regarded in competition circles, but be ready for sticker shock. Most are still using JP's older direct blowback PCC simply because it has more compatibility with standard parts. All this is to say that no, it's not pointless to compare the MPX to direct blowback ARs, because at the end of the day direct blowback ARs are the majority of the competitive shooting space. Quoted: Quoted: Comparing a purpose-built weapon to a platform that was converted is apples to oranges. I get what you're saying re: AR ergos, but past that there's not much point in comparing the two, 9mm blowback ARs are...less than ideal. So I've probably been exposed to a lot more PCCs than most having staffed major USPSA matches where the PCC division is very popular. 9mm blowback ARs are what win at nationals. I mean, Max Leograndis is what wins nationals - I think he's up to like 8 in a row or something ridiculous. But he does it with a blowback 9mm AR, and so to most of his closest competitors. These days, there's a healthy market of blowback 9mm PCCs that have AR ergos and manual of arms, but are not converted from anything. Bespoke upper and lower receivers, the designs continue to get better and better even if a lot of them are still direct blowback. Without getting into the weeds on what's most popular for competition, I would say the closest direct-blowback point of comparison to the MPX is the DD PCC series. Like the MPX, it doesn't use a standard length upper or lower receiver (which is annoying for parts compatibility - particularly charging handles - but makes the gun more compact.) The PSA AR-V is also very compelling for the price point and uses CZ Scorpion mags like the DD does. There are also a variety of these that have added some form of delayed blowback. I think CMMG might have been the first, but it hasn't really caught on. The JP-5 is well regarded in competition circles, but be ready for sticker shock. Most are still using JP's older direct blowback PCC simply because it has more compatibility with standard parts. All this is to say that no, it's not pointless to compare the MPX to direct blowback ARs, because at the end of the day direct blowback ARs are the majority of the competitive shooting space. Ehh... I think the truth is more complicated than that. A lot of the competition shooters are shooting big, heavy, and long PCCs with large muzzle devices. These are purpose built race toys that don't compare directly to PDWs and sub guns. Many of the direct blowback ARs are also using hydraulic or delayed buffer systems, and that blurs the lines, too. I don't know if the CMMG Banshee or Dissent do well in competition, but they're doing relatively well on the market, at least relative to their price tags. |
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Quoted: Ehh... I think the truth is more complicated than that. A lot of the competition shooters are shooting big, heavy, and long PCCs with large muzzle devices. These are purpose built race toys that don't compare directly to PDWs and sub guns. To push back on that: the competition space drives innovation and particularly with PCCs, reliability. The first couple years of PCC in USPSA were god awful. Nothing worked. Everything broke. It was a running joke. But the market expanded and adapted. You can now build a sub-gun sized PCC using competition derived parts that's reliable and relatively soft shooting. |
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This is beautiful. 
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LOL. This is the kind of stuff AI Image generators are great at. Funny stuff with no commercial viability. 
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Quoted: You know, it kind of seemed like this was cycling down and I was wondering if I was overreacting to it, but then another story pops up. This is ridiculous. Stupid 320's I could have had two Glocks or M&Ps set up with the money that went to Sig. I like the P320, if nothing else as a collectable example of a polymer frame pistol. I have a couple Steyrs, a Walther, a couple Beretta polymer frame guns, the Sigs are an example of an innovative design. Even though its not safe to carry loaded. Allegedly
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Quoted: Have any actual labs tested a 320 and made it fail in the same way it failed in the field? Who are these labs and do they operate as a charity? Otherwise, who is paying for them? IOW, why should we even expect the testing to occur if nobody pays for it? FBI BRF is the only one that's done any published testing, and they did so at the behest of a PD. |
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Quoted: Who are these labs and do they operate as a charity? Otherwise, who is paying for them? IOW, why should we even expect the testing to occur if nobody pays for it? FBI BRF is the only one that's done any published testing, and they did so at the behest of a PD. Quoted: Quoted: Have any actual labs tested a 320 and made it fail in the same way it failed in the field? Who are these labs and do they operate as a charity? Otherwise, who is paying for them? IOW, why should we even expect the testing to occur if nobody pays for it? FBI BRF is the only one that's done any published testing, and they did so at the behest of a PD. |
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Quoted: Who are these labs and do they operate as a charity? Otherwise, who is paying for them? IOW, why should we even expect the testing to occur if nobody pays for it? FBI BRF is the only one that's done any published testing, and they did so at the behest of a PD. I would assume that a lawsuit would require sending the gun in for testing by some sort of lab and that those results would show the gun failing on film or not... |
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Quoted: I would assume that a lawsuit would require sending the gun in for testing by some sort of lab and that those results would show the gun failing on film or not... It's a circlejerk of expert witnesses for the defendant and the plaintiff. They may rely on third parties to provide data like SEM/CT or whatever. If you're looking for a lab dedicated to root-cause failure analysis of firearms that are capable of finding a failure with odds in the 1/100,000 range, you're going to be looking for a while. Some may claim to have the ability but such a thing just doesn't exist because there's no business case for it. It would take monumental resources. There are lots of labs out there that do failure analysis. Lots of them won't touch anything firearms-related because it's such a can of worms. Just take yourself back to the last time the P320 safety concerns blew up: it wasn't because a lab found a problem. It was because random assholes on the internet just like you and I with a YouTube account* published evidence of the problem. *I apologize for this description of Andrew Tuohy, because he's a good dude. |
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Quoted: The lobby holster pop sent their gun to the state crime lab IIRC (told SIG lol no thanks) but never heard anything afterwards. It’s a fair question. Things I would expect a state crime lab to be able to do with a firearm:
Things I would not expect a state crime lab to be able to do with a firearm:
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Quoted: I would assume that a lawsuit would require sending the gun in for testing by some sort of lab and that those results would show the gun failing on film or not... Quoted: Quoted: Who are these labs and do they operate as a charity? Otherwise, who is paying for them? IOW, why should we even expect the testing to occur if nobody pays for it? FBI BRF is the only one that's done any published testing, and they did so at the behest of a PD. I would assume that a lawsuit would require sending the gun in for testing by some sort of lab and that those results would show the gun failing on film or not... Are you not aware that Sig has said their pistols are not safe to be carried with a round chambered and even changed the P320 owners manual claiming the same. That should be enough for anybody to not carry one loaded. |