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Posted: 10/1/2019 4:08:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BigPony]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
Header tank before it was installed https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/86377/7B7C9936-0BC6-4D99-9576-4A498E9D7AAB_jpeg-1108843.JPG |
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Posted: 10/1/2019 5:51:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Meanwhile over at BO... Blue Origin says that its LOX/methane-powered BE-4 -- currently the favorite to power ULA's Vulcan -- will be ready to fly by 2019. Blue Origin hasn't published an exact price for the BE-4, but promises that once developed it will sell for "about 30 to 40 percent less than the RD-180 engine."
This implies a sticker price as low as $6 million or $7 million -- but whether that's the cost of just one BE-4 engine (remember, Vulcan will need two of 'em to get off the ground) or the cost of a working pair hasn't been clarified. Potentially, at $7 million per engine, Blue Origin's solution could cost $14 million. |
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Posted: 10/1/2019 6:25:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BigPony]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
Meanwhile over at BO... So right now they are both working towards the same goals .. moon/mars/orbital lift contracts etc, but 20-30 years down the road the companies are going to be going in drastically different directions for their endgames. |
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Posted: 10/1/2019 6:32:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BigPony]
[#4]
Oh, and in today's Mk1 news, they separated the top half from the bottom for the purposes of making internal hardware installation easier. They also have to install the landing legs on the bottom as well, and work continues on the launch/landing pad area. This will probably be the same story for several weeks as they complete these tasks, so expect the news to slow down quite a bit while they take it from a showpiece that was just stacked for the presentation and make it into an actual ship with everything needed for flight.
If you really want to watch every last thing they are doing, LabPadres cam is still going 24/7!  Live! 24/7 SpaceX Boca Chica Complex |
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Posted: 10/1/2019 6:44:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pavelow16478]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPony: Yeah. They are doing good work too - and also outpacing NASA btw, but they are never going to get it done as fast or as cheaply as Elon. But it is good to have competition imo. His end goal is not the same as Elons also. Bezos is wanting to do Oneil Cylinders eventually as well as coring out large asteroids and establishing independent colonies in those. He really is not at all about settling planets/moons So right now they are both working towards the same goals .. moon/mars/orbital lift contracts etc, but 20-30 years down the road the companies are going to be going in drastically different directions for their endgames. ETA: New Glenn will be a great competitor to the Falcon family and even offer some additional capabilities, namely the hydrolox upperstage. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/1/2019 7:02:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
Meanwhile over at BO... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
Meanwhile over at BO... Blue Origin says that its LOX/methane-powered BE-4 -- currently the favorite to power ULA's Vulcan -- will be ready to fly by 2019. Blue Origin hasn't published an exact price for the BE-4, but promises that once developed it will sell for "about 30 to 40 percent less than the RD-180 engine."
This implies a sticker price as low as $6 million or $7 million -- but whether that's the cost of just one BE-4 engine (remember, Vulcan will need two of 'em to get off the ground) or the cost of a working pair hasn't been clarified. Potentially, at $7 million per engine, Blue Origin's solution could cost $14 million. The RD-180s ULA imports from Russia cost ~$24 million each. The RS-25 for SLS costs $50+ million each! Thats literally more than what all ~43 of the engines on a Starship+Superheavy will probably cost! 
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Posted: 10/2/2019 6:37:21 AM EDT
[#7]
In other new space news, Firefly is progressing well into the Reaver engine testing campaign. They have 4 engines on the test stand and are working towards static firing a complete first stage.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 2:47:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BigPony]
[#8]
Is a newer start up in Cali that is going to 3D Print their engines. Cannot recall their name off hand but they have secured 160 million in investment funding. Enough to complete a fully functional and testable model.
EDIT: https://www.relativityspace.com/mission EXPANDING THE POSSIBILITIES FOR HUMAN EXPERIENCE SEEING THE FUTURE HAPPEN FASTER Relativity is the first and only company to automate aerospace manufacturing by integrating intelligent robotics, software, and proprietary metal 3D printing technology. Leading an unrivaled team to solve problems never solved before, our leadership includes seasoned veterans and experts from the world’s most renowned aerospace, 3D printing, and technology companies. Together, we are revolutionizing how rockets are built and flown. I do not know how much it will cost them to pull this off, but these are the companies we need so that we learn how to just build our spaceships and stations fully IN space. Will save such a crap ton of money that way. This is the thing that will truly make space travel affordable for everyone. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 3:10:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
In other new space news, Firefly is progressing well into the Reaver engine testing campaign. They have 4 engines on the test stand and are working towards static firing a complete first stage. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/86377/4517994B-9A16-4141-8C21-815443BE6D99_jpeg-1109788.JPG |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 3:47:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Harlikwin]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chairborne: I don’t know WTF that’s all about, but I grok their naming conventions. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 4:42:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
In other new space news, Firefly is progressing well into the Reaver engine testing campaign. They have 4 engines on the test stand and are working towards static firing a complete first stage. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/86377/4517994B-9A16-4141-8C21-815443BE6D99_jpeg-1109788.JPG |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 4:47:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpanishInquisition: ...reavers...*shudder* Don't they rape people to death, eat their flesh, sew people's skins into their clothes and if you are very lucky. Do it in that order? |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 5:35:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus: Yeah, that's an... Interesting choice of name. Don't they rape people to death, eat their flesh, sew people's skins into their clothes and if you are very lucky. Do it in that order? |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 8:50:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus:
Yeah, that's an... Interesting choice of name. Don't they rape people to death, eat their flesh, sew people's skins into their clothes and if you are very lucky. Do it in that order? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus:
Originally Posted By SpanishInquisition: ...reavers...*shudder* Don't they rape people to death, eat their flesh, sew people's skins into their clothes and if you are very lucky. Do it in that order? NewSpace-------------->SkyNet 
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Posted: 10/2/2019 8:53:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pavelow16478]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPony:
Is a newer start up in Cali that is going to 3D Print their engines. Cannot recall their name off hand but they have secured 160 million in investment funding. Enough to complete a fully functional and testable model. EDIT: https://www.relativityspace.com/mission EXPANDING THE POSSIBILITIES FOR HUMAN EXPERIENCE SEEING THE FUTURE HAPPEN FASTER Relativity is the first and only company to automate aerospace manufacturing by integrating intelligent robotics, software, and proprietary metal 3D printing technology. Leading an unrivaled team to solve problems never solved before, our leadership includes seasoned veterans and experts from the world's most renowned aerospace, 3D printing, and technology companies. Together, we are revolutionizing how rockets are built and flown. I do not know how much it will cost them to pull this off, but these are the companies we need so that we learn how to just build our spaceships and stations fully IN space. Will save such a crap ton of money that way. This is the thing that will truly make space travel affordable for everyone. Looks like they are splitting the difference between Electron and Falcon 9 payload wise. Same market Firefly is going for. The next few years are going to be fun to watch 
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Posted: 10/2/2019 9:05:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neotopiaman: Nuke power in space is not as great as you would think because of heat rejection. All waste heat has to be rejected via blackbody radiation at temperature to the fourth power. There is no convection in space. You certainly don't want to use steam power in space... The radiators for a steam nuke plant would literally be larger and heavier than a solar array of the same power. Nuke reactors in space need very high temps with glowing red radiators. Exotic gas cycles with thermocouples or thermionic converters. Thermodynamic efficiency only ends up in the high teens if you're lucky. KiloPower |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 1:13:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cypher15:
None of it matters if their current crew project doesnt get off the ground. These people all went to test pilot school before they became astronauts they know the game. At some point we need to stop the nail biting and realize people are going to fucking die in space, minimize the risk to the best of our abilities, and start launching some fucking rockets. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 1:16:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BigPony]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Keekleberrys: I sincerely have never understood the the Madagascar method to space flight our government seems to use. If something goes wrong or someone dies it's SHUT DOWN EVERYTHING for a minimum of a couple years or so. These people all went to test pilot school before they became astronauts they know the game. At some point we need to stop the nail biting and realize people are going to fucking die in space, minimize the risk to the best of our abilities, and start launching some fucking rockets. Imo they should get out of manned flight. They can still train astronauts, provide support apparatus for preflight and flight but let other people who still have vision and some balls actually handle it. I mean seriuosly. We have to build the lunar space station before we can go to the moon? What sort of effing crap thinking is that? Give the extra money to the sciences and exploration division which always have and continue to be at the top of the game. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 1:19:49 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
I would like to see BO to succeed and want SpaceX to have competition in the marketplace. At the rate Starship and New Glenn are progressing they are going to start launching payloads around the same time. If Starship comes even halfway close to the capabilities and costs they are projecting New Glenn is going to come to market and not be competitive on costs or capabilities. ETA: New Glenn will be a great competitor to the Falcon family and even offer some additional capabilities, namely the hydrolox upperstage. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 1:33:43 AM EDT
[#20]
BO's slow-rolling march, despite being backed to the hilt by the dude who owns every fifth dollar in existence, makes me think they are simply allowing SpaceX to do most of the trailblazing for them (i.e. proving that things like VTVL return of quick-reuse boosters, methalox rockets, and reusable two-stage SHLVs are all possible and feasible)….and then simply moving into that slot with a lessons-learned design configuration based on either Open Source info (hard to really compartmentalize the SpaceX operations and general designs) or info acquired via less cool sources (scooping up ex-SpaceX engineers).
So, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that New Armstrong will quickly follow New Glenn, and resemble Starship in more than a few ways. Bezos seems to have more of a mind for Cislunar ops, compared to Musk's Mars fixation, and the capabilities of NG and (likely) NA reflect that. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 4:02:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BigPony]
[#21]
As I talked about before, Bezos has completely different colonizing plans than Musk. Bezos just wants us to colonize space in stations, or cored out asteroids.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/science/jeff-bezos-moon.amp.html He is a huge fan of the Oneil Cylinder. His plans do not really involve landing on moons or planets, but NASA is giving him money to go to the moon to do experiments, so it is worth his time for both money and prestige to go there, and he will, but odds are Space X will already be there by the time he is ready In my mind we have room for both philosophies. Short term though, he started at it before SpaceX, but is behind them, and his rockets and engines cost 6-7 times more than SpaceX, but still 30-40% less than NASA's. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:58:21 AM EDT
[#22]
What is the crew escape plan for starship? Generally when you have just a small capsule they just strap a couple extra rockets to the top that can carry it off the launch vehicle if there is a problem, what do you do when the whole crew compartment is the size of an entire launch vehicle?
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:58:57 AM EDT
[#23]
So BO wants to be belters and Space X wants to be the MCRN...
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Posted: 10/3/2019 9:12:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Pavelow16478]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By snakes19:
What is the crew escape plan for starship? Generally when you have just a small capsule they just strap a couple extra rockets to the top that can carry it off the launch vehicle if there is a problem, what do you do when the whole crew compartment is the size of an entire launch vehicle? 
Elon tweeted about using Starship as the escape system if the booster decided to blow. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 9:13:06 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bye_Felicia:
So BO wants to be belters and Space X wants to be the MCRN... 
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Posted: 10/3/2019 11:29:37 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bye_Felicia:
So BO wants to be belters and Space X wants to be the MCRN... |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 11:59:35 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BigPony:
As I talked about before, Bezos has completely different colonizing plans than Musk. Bezos just wants us to colonize space in stations, or cored out asteroids. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/science/jeff-bezos-moon.amp.html He is a huge fan of the Oneil Cylinder. His plans do not really involve landing on moons or planets, but NASA is giving him money to go to the moon to do experiments, so it is worth his time for both money and prestige to go there, and he will, but odds are Space X will already be there by the time he is ready In my mind we have room for both philosophies. Short term though, he started at it before SpaceX, but is behind them, and his rockets and engines cost 6-7 times more than SpaceX, but still 30-40% less than NASA's. Otherwise you're looking at using centrifugal force on everything that requires any sort of density sorting to get it processed. Or you've got complicated pumps and filters and other things that will eat up a lot of the savings you get from asteroid materials. So a blended approach where asteroid materials are transported to the Moon or Mars where you've got enough gravity for "up and down" to run smelters, and you can build big factories with more traditional methods, but then re-launch costs are still cheaper than Earth because of the smaller gravity wells might be what we wind up doing. At least until the far future tech can do everything from mining, to smelting, to manufacture all in situ whenever and wherever you might want it. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2019 6:56:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Neotopiaman]
[#28]
Raptor pic with nice blue-violet flame:
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:24:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neotopiaman:
Raptor pic with nice blue-violet flame: https://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/raptor_0.jpg
https://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/locations_0000_mcgreggor.jpg
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:25:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bye_Felicia:
So BO wants to be belters and Space X wants to be the MCRN... |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:25:30 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neotopiaman:
Raptor pic with nice blue-violet flame: https://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/raptor_0.jpg
https://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/locations_0000_mcgreggor.jpg
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:27:49 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
Mach cones... |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:30:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neotopiaman:
Raptor pic with nice blue-violet flame: https://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/raptor_0.jpg
https://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/locations_0000_mcgreggor.jpg |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:34:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Neotopiaman]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ErikS: I wonder how they are keeping the nozzle diffuser cool? Is it double walled with cooling fuel flowing through it like the old V2 nozzle? One that doesn't though, is the Delta IV's RS-68, which has an ablative nozzle. This is also why it has an orange flame in spite of being a hydrolox engine; the orange is from the ablator burning: 
Normally, hydrolox engines burn nearly invisible blue: 
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:37:11 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chairborne: Sure it’s pretty, but so is my gas stovetop.
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:37:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pavelow16478]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ErikS: I wonder how they are keeping the nozzle diffuser cool? Is it double walled with cooling fuel flowing through it like the old V2 nozzle? Simplified, milled copper channels between the inconel inner and outer wall of the nozzle which fuel is then passed through. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:37:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neotopiaman:
Does your gas stovetop make 200 tonnes of thrust though? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neotopiaman:
Originally Posted By Chairborne: Sure it's pretty, but so is my gas stovetop.
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:46:36 PM EDT
[#38]
More on rocket flame colors:
Kerolox engines (O2 + RP1) make orange flames: Falcon 9: 
Atlas V: 
Saturn V: 
Hypergolic rockets tend to make similar colors in their flames, though they often seen to have some red mixed in: Proton: 
CZ-3: 
Solids make bright white-yellow flames with large smoke plumes: 
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:50:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neotopiaman:
Does your gas stovetop make 200 tonnes of thrust though? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Neotopiaman:
Originally Posted By Chairborne: Sure it’s pretty, but so is my gas stovetop. 
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Posted: 10/4/2019 7:12:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bye_Felicia:
So BO wants to be belters and Space X wants to be the MCRN... "MCRN-1." "Huh, so President Musk finally made it to plaid, eh?" |
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Posted: 10/4/2019 7:19:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
I posted one of Elon's tweets about it earlier in the thread but it looks like he has since deleted it. Simplified, milled copper channels between the inconel inner and outer wall of the nozzle which fuel is then passed through. I know the second stage of the Falcon sure glows bright when it is running full flow. |
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Posted: 10/4/2019 7:45:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: snakeyes711]
[#42]
Delete
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Posted: 10/4/2019 8:00:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pavelow16478]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ErikS: This is the same concept used in the V2. I know the second stage of the Falcon sure glows bright when it is running full flow. ETA: When I say "solid" I just mean there are no cooling channels in it. It's very thin, tapering down to 1/64" thick at the exit. |
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Posted: 10/4/2019 11:30:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By snakes19:
What is the crew escape plan for starship? Generally when you have just a small capsule they just strap a couple extra rockets to the top that can carry it off the launch vehicle if there is a problem, what do you do when the whole crew compartment is the size of an entire launch vehicle? |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/5/2019 8:05:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Neotopiaman]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pavelow16478:
The MVac engine nozzle does not have active cooling. It's is made from solid niobium and relies solely on radiant heat transfer for cooling, hence getting red hot. ETA: When I say "solid" I just mean there are no cooling channels in it. It's very thin, tapering down to 1/64" thick at the exit. The upper part is Regen cooled like the sea level Merlins. The turbine exhaust cools the middle part, as seen in an F1 engine. The lower part of the engine bell uses radiative cooling, with a bright orange niobium bell. |
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Posted: 10/8/2019 2:25:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BigPony]
[#46]
Space X Starship Update News:
Been ~ 1.5 weeks since the presentation (they have continued to work 24/7 at the Boca Site) Mk1 requires in the Nose: Still need Hydraulic accumulators. Possibly the tesla motors. Actuator levers for the flaps. Thrusters. More plumbing. Avionics. Computers. Sensors. etc, Base: legs, engines reinstalled. etc. It is thought to be "still on schedule" but Space X has not officially commented on that as of yet. They also have just begun on the frame of Mk3!  This is going to be manufactured a bit differently. It will have a single weld area the entire length of the ship, and the 301 stainless will be cut thinner. Much less welding will be required on it.Overall, at this early state in the process all seems to be going well We will have a much better idea on the state of the progress around Halloween.
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Posted: 10/8/2019 2:33:14 PM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 10/10/2019 9:45:21 AM EDT
[#48]
 Attached File |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/12/2019 12:39:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Neotopiaman]
[#49]
Cement trucks at LC-39 beginning to construct new Starship pad! https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1183053726526984192 |
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Posted: 10/12/2019 1:47:35 PM EDT
[#50]
Yup. They are working 24/7 at both the ship assembly area as well as the launch/landing area for Starship. Isn't any of that NASA 9-5 bs over at SpaceX lol.
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