User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 8:17:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: You may be right but that sounds like another SpaceX fuckup in the making. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: Originally Posted By redoubt: Yes. Starship is meant to be caught on the tower, too. Lunar Starship and probably the first Mars ships will have landing legs. But the LEO one's won't. You may be right but that sounds like another SpaceX fuckup in the making. If RTLS and tower catch, then there is no need for landing gear. Obviously Lunar or Mars ships will need them, but for Earth LEO the weight penalty for a landing gear that will never be used just doesn't make sense. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 8:29:56 PM EDT
[#2]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 9:55:18 PM EDT
[#3]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 10:16:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ScaryBlackGuns: Now, I am not a engineer, or even the holder of a STEM degree, but I doubt that Starship would be capable of a pad abort using only raptors. Even with hot staging, I don't think lighting three to six raptors and burning 100%+ over a methalox bomb until clear would be a great idea. From the Super Draco tests it appears that the capsule gets the fuck outta town in a hurry. I can't see 3 raptors, 6 if county the vacs, performing like that from zero-zero. Ultimately, nine raptors. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 10:57:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AZ_Sky: I disagree. If RTLS and tower catch, then there is no need for landing gear. Obviously Lunar or Mars ships will need them, but for Earth LEO the weight penalty for a landing gear that will never be used just doesn't make sense. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AZ_Sky: Originally Posted By AmericanPeople: Originally Posted By redoubt: Yes. Starship is meant to be caught on the tower, too. Lunar Starship and probably the first Mars ships will have landing legs. But the LEO one's won't. You may be right but that sounds like another SpaceX fuckup in the making. If RTLS and tower catch, then there is no need for landing gear. Obviously Lunar or Mars ships will need them, but for Earth LEO the weight penalty for a landing gear that will never be used just doesn't make sense. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 11:00:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: Originally Posted By ScaryBlackGuns: Now, I am not a engineer, or even the holder of a STEM degree, but I doubt that Starship would be capable of a pad abort using only raptors. Even with hot staging, I don't think lighting three to six raptors and burning 100%+ over a methalox bomb until clear would be a great idea. From the Super Draco tests it appears that the capsule gets the fuck outta town in a hurry. I can't see 3 raptors, 6 if county the vacs, performing like that from zero-zero. Ultimately, nine raptors. By the time Starship is manned, I'm confident there would be at least two launch towers at KSC, so landing/capture would not be the limiting factor. Even if Booster could be shielded enough to withstand 4M+ lbs thrust of a full throttle hot stage, Starship still could not accelerate fast enough to escape with any real margin of safety. Using 9x raptor 3 engines producing 538k lbs thrust each and the 2.9M lb weight of Starship (does not account for extra weight of the planned lengthening of Starship or the extra 3 engines) gives a thrust/weight of 1.66 providing 16.2 m/sec2 acceleration. Super Draco's push Dragon at ~5.5Gs or 53 m/sec2. Assuming instantaneous ignition, it would take Starship 3 sec to get 70m separation (one booster length) from Booster. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 11:02:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shooter_gregg: There really isn't much of a weight savings because it has to carry extra fuel for the landing maneuvers. I think it was a way to push the design of landing gear down the road. Ultimately it will have to be designed and built because of landing on unimproved surfaces. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shooter_gregg: Originally Posted By AZ_Sky: Originally Posted By AmericanPeople: Originally Posted By redoubt: Yes. Starship is meant to be caught on the tower, too. Lunar Starship and probably the first Mars ships will have landing legs. But the LEO one's won't. You may be right but that sounds like another SpaceX fuckup in the making. If RTLS and tower catch, then there is no need for landing gear. Obviously Lunar or Mars ships will need them, but for Earth LEO the weight penalty for a landing gear that will never be used just doesn't make sense. But I do agree that at some point landing gear will most certainly have to be designed into the ship - it just isn't needed now, or for quite a while imo. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 11:05:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Wild-ass proposal: if Ship survives the detonation of Booster in Texas, and the tower is wrecked, boost hard for Florida at sub-orbital across the gulf. Land with chopsticks at FLA tower.
"It's just crazy enough to work!" 🤪🤪🤪🚀🚀🚀 Feel free to rip theory apart. I'm dead inside. Best, JBR |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 11:07:16 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hellion-Productions: Wild-ass proposal: if Ship survives the detonation of Booster in Texas, and the tower is wrecked, boost hard for Florida at sub-orbital across the gulf. Land with chopsticks at FLA tower. "It's just crazy enough to work!" Feel free to rip theory apart. I'm dead inside. Best, JBR |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 11:17:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redoubt: In the future, most launches will be from Florida. So they're going to need a catch tower in the Azores. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By redoubt: Originally Posted By Hellion-Productions: Wild-ass proposal: if Ship survives the detonation of Booster in Texas, and the tower is wrecked, boost hard for Florida at sub-orbital across the gulf. Land with chopsticks at FLA tower. "It's just crazy enough to work!" Feel free to rip theory apart. I'm dead inside. Best, JBR Once they get the process down, they can station catch towers across the globe. Elon can license Starship's base edition to countries that host, making them orbital powers when they launch from them. Win win. Best, JBR |
|
|
|
CO, USA
|
Posted: 6/26/2023 11:18:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AZ_Sky: I disagree. If RTLS and tower catch, then there is no need for landing gear. Obviously Lunar or Mars ships will need them, but for Earth LEO the weight penalty for a landing gear that will never be used just doesn't make sense. What happens with an abort situation? If the only abort option is RTLS that could be problematic to having it man rated...which may be hard anyway. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 1:45:34 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: You may be right but that sounds like another SpaceX fuckup in the making. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: Originally Posted By redoubt: Yes. Starship is meant to be caught on the tower, too. Lunar Starship and probably the first Mars ships will have landing legs. But the LEO one's won't. You may be right but that sounds like another SpaceX fuckup in the making. It'll be funny when it is as commonplace as falcon 9 landings |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 10:00:57 AM EDT
[#13]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 10:04:37 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: What happens with an abort situation? If the only abort option is RTLS that could be problematic to having it man rated...which may be hard anyway. Man rating is far down the list. Dragon is already and is fairly cheap. The cargo and fuel launch demand for starship will always be huge compared to the bodies to space need. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 10:59:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
[#15]
Pretty sure those aren't THE plates. Probably something else. A work surface or forms or something. No slowing down though.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 11:08:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DK-Prof]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise: Man rating is far down the list. Dragon is already and is fairly cheap. The cargo and fuel launch demand for starship will always be huge compared to the bodies to space need. Although Starship by itself is going to have to be man-rated sooner rather than later, because of the HLS contract. ETA: Can something be man-rated for SOME activities, but not for others? Like could the HLS Starship be man-rated for docking in space and descending/ascending to the moon's surface and re-docking in space - and at the same time NOT be man-rated for being launched from the ground on top of the Booster? I'm guessing that Starship itself could be man-rated, but the Booster could not be, preventing launching people on Starship from the surface of earth, but still using it in space in its HLS form. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 11:22:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Although Starship by itself is going to have to be man-rated sooner rather than later, because of the HLS contract. ETA: Can something be man-rated for SOME activities, but not for others? Like could the HLS Starship be man-rated for docking in space and descending/ascending to the moon's surface and re-docking in space - and at the same time NOT be man-rated for being launched from the ground on top of the Booster? I'm guessing that Starship itself could be man-rated, but the Booster could not be, preventing launching people on Starship from the surface of earth, but still using it in space in its HLS form. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 11:26:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DK-Prof: Although Starship by itself is going to have to be man-rated sooner rather than later, because of the HLS contract. ETA: Can something be man-rated for SOME activities, but not for others? Like could the HLS Starship be man-rated for docking in space and descending/ascending to the moon's surface and re-docking in space - and at the same time NOT be man-rated for being launched from the ground on top of the Booster? I'm guessing that Starship itself could be man-rated, but the Booster could not be, preventing launching people on Starship from the surface of earth, but still using it in space in its HLS form. Absolutely. Real example being the Apollo LEM. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 11:35:10 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RiverSwine45: Absolutely. Real example being the Apollo LEM. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RiverSwine45: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Although Starship by itself is going to have to be man-rated sooner rather than later, because of the HLS contract. ETA: Can something be man-rated for SOME activities, but not for others? Like could the HLS Starship be man-rated for docking in space and descending/ascending to the moon's surface and re-docking in space - and at the same time NOT be man-rated for being launched from the ground on top of the Booster? I'm guessing that Starship itself could be man-rated, but the Booster could not be, preventing launching people on Starship from the surface of earth, but still using it in space in its HLS form. Absolutely. Real example being the Apollo LEM. +1 The only thing that makes this seem different is that the "lander" is the same architecture as a orbital launcher. They have always been so different that there was never a question. No one bats an eye that the LEM was not rated to launch people into space from earth. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 12:09:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RiverSwine45: Absolutely. Real example being the Apollo LEM. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RiverSwine45: Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Although Starship by itself is going to have to be man-rated sooner rather than later, because of the HLS contract. ETA: Can something be man-rated for SOME activities, but not for others? Like could the HLS Starship be man-rated for docking in space and descending/ascending to the moon's surface and re-docking in space - and at the same time NOT be man-rated for being launched from the ground on top of the Booster? I'm guessing that Starship itself could be man-rated, but the Booster could not be, preventing launching people on Starship from the surface of earth, but still using it in space in its HLS form. Absolutely. Real example being the Apollo LEM. Good point. Duh. I'm dumb. 
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 6:15:46 PM EDT
[#21]
 |
|
|
CO, USA
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 6:19:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By t75fnaco3pwzhd: It'll be funny when it is as commonplace as falcon 9 landings That may happen. I just don't have confidence in the prospect and at this time would not fly on Starship anytime in the near future. |
|
|
CO, USA
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 6:21:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise: Man rating is far down the list. Dragon is already and is fairly cheap. The cargo and fuel launch demand for starship will always be huge compared to the bodies to space need. It can't be far down. Starship is supposed to land a diverse crew on the moon in 2025...maybe December but that will slip. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 10:31:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: That may happen. I just don't have confidence in the prospect and at this time would not fly on Starship anytime in the near future. Hell, they could practically just throw a dragon in the nose if starship gets man rated as a launch vehicle first and meet the goals. |
|
|
|
ID, USA
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 11:13:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: That may happen. I just don't have confidence in the prospect and at this time would not fly on Starship anytime in the near future. When Starship is ready for that job it’s going to be interesting to see if they can ever pull off that point to point airliner strategy they have proposed. Regardless it is going to be awhile until accredited astronauts fly on it. Let alone whatever schlub can scrape together the $$$ for a ticket. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/27/2023 11:14:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By SpanishInquisition: Hell, they could practically just throw a dragon in the nose if starship gets man rated as a launch vehicle first and meet the goals. I've thought about that as a potential stopgap measure if they wanted to retire Falcon 9 before Starship was fully man rated. Dragon would need to be redesigned to incorporate TPS tiles that would just about completely cover it (including at least three of the super dracos and the docking hatch). The second option would use an unmodified Crew Dragon capsule that would return separately from Ship. Though in that case, they would have to modify Ship to survive reentry with the nose section missing where Dragon was. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/29/2023 4:42:24 PM EDT
[#27]
  
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2023 7:26:17 AM EDT
[#28]
 SpaceX Starbase 4K Water Cooled Central Stainless Steel Plate Work First Look 6/29/23 Texas Day 332 |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2023 8:02:42 PM EDT
[#29]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2023 8:03:59 PM EDT
[#30]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2023 8:06:19 PM EDT
[#31]
 How SpaceX Will Guarantee Its Launch Pad Never Fails Again! [Part 1] |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/30/2023 10:05:31 PM EDT
[#32]
 SpaceX Rolls Out Steel Deluge Plate |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/1/2023 1:06:55 AM EDT
[#33]
   
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/1/2023 1:10:38 AM EDT
[#34]
|
|
|
|
MD, USA
|
Posted: 7/1/2023 1:33:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Element94]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0Qc1EaMAA6sKN?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0QdWKaMAEQCMv?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0QdqoaMAUEFGB?format=jpg&name=large I actually thought at least the upper part of the sandwich plate would be thicker than that. |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 7/1/2023 7:22:43 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryWhatever nanny made those guys get down off the plate should hang their head in shame.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/1/2023 9:30:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Element94: I actually thought at least the upper part of the sandwich plate would be thicker than that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Element94: Originally Posted By Chokey:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0Qc1EaMAA6sKN?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0QdWKaMAEQCMv?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0QdqoaMAUEFGB?format=jpg&name=large I actually thought at least the upper part of the sandwich plate would be thicker than that. Id guess that you dont want it too thick or you could end up with the top face being melted faster than the heat will conduct through the plate to the water. Steel aint the best conductor |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/1/2023 2:16:02 PM EDT
[#38]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/1/2023 5:31:32 PM EDT
[#39]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/4/2023 6:11:57 PM EDT
[#40]
 SpaceX Starship Hot Staging Cinematic |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 1:22:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: What happens with an abort situation? If the only abort option is RTLS that could be problematic to having it man rated...which may be hard anyway. I still say they need escape pods |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 1:51:42 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Obo2: I still say they need escape pods |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 2:35:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SoCalExile: SpaceX already has an escape capsule in the Dragon, I would think translating it over to the SS wouldn't be a huge deal. There are more than a few obstacles to just using crew dragon on top of Starship. -Limits crew size -Requires the trunk (which adds another 10ft in length) for stability during escape and radiator/power while in orbit -Would need addition of complete external heat shielding to survive reentry attached to starship -Would have to detach in orbit and dock (with the docking port in the nose now covered with starship heat tiles) if Dragon capsule keeps it current heat shield |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 2:41:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: woodsie]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: You may be right but that sounds like another SpaceX fuckup in the making. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: Originally Posted By redoubt: Yes. Starship is meant to be caught on the tower, too. Lunar Starship and probably the first Mars ships will have landing legs. But the LEO one's won't. You may be right but that sounds like another SpaceX fuckup in the making. I know people have this idea of Starship being exactly what Elon says it's going to be and taking off and landing exactly according to his aspirational goal of catching them with a tower and turning them around in a matter of hours like a 747 but I'd never dismiss the possibility of certain things getting scaled back as development progresses. I think there's a real possibility that the final 1.0 production version of Starship lands on legs like a Falcon and without people on board but still changes the world profoundly by enabling a total payload to LEO and cost per kg that exceeds anything that we've ever seen. That would be true even if Starship never launched and returned humans too. Even if the booster and ship catching is ultimately deemed a bridge too far, the tower design still retains it's utility for stacking and launching as has already been demonstrated with the first test flight. |
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 3:07:31 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By woodsie: I know people have this idea of Starship being exactly what Elon says it's going to be and taking off and landing exactly according to his aspirational goal of catching them with a tower and turning them around in a matter of hours like a 747 but I'd never dismiss the possibility of certain things getting scaled back as development progresses. I think there's a real possibility that the final 1.0 production version of Starship lands on legs like a Falcon and without people on board but still changes the world profoundly by enabling a total payload to LEO and cost per kg that exceeds anything that we've ever seen. That would be true even if Starship never launched and returned humans too. Even if the booster and ship catching is ultimately deemed a bridge too far, the tower design still retains it's utility for stacking and launching as has already been demonstrated with the first test flight. It should be apparent by now, that a guiding philosophy of Elon endeavors, is robust design that allows for a backup sure thing plan for more risky initial plans. The emphasis is on speed with a fail safe backup. Carbon fiber was abandoned. Not robust. Not flexible. Stainless steel was adopted. Cryogenic. The staple of significant chemical plant construction. The concrete failed. No big deal, austenitic stainless armor can be quickly constructed. |
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 4:09:09 PM EDT
[#46]
We went on vacation in South Padre last week and we drove over to Boca Chica/SpaceX on Monday morning, 6/26. No need to post pics, as there's plenty of pics online that are better than I can take. It was incredible! My two biggest takeaways were 1) gosh this place is remote. There's NOTHING out here. NO public facilities...I had to pee behind a dumpster. And 2) holy crap this place is busy! Everywhere you look was non-stop infrastructure expansion. I don't mean people standing around watching others work, I mean continuous construction, everywhere you look. Rockets being assembled here, megabay being constructed there, another building there, a trench with cables in it going from the Spaceport to the launch tower area, non-stop trucks, truck, and more trucks! Like, watch where you're walking so you don't get flattened! We parked right near the Rocket Garden and saw the Starships and Heavy Boosters there, as close as we could get. I met a photographer named Chief who works for What About It youtube channel, and he helped point out what I was looking at. I highly recommend going there if you get the chance.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 4:18:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Water plate being lifted now.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 4:56:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chokey:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0Qc1EaMAA6sKN?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0QdWKaMAEQCMv?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz0QdqoaMAUEFGB?format=jpg&name=large Elon to the welding crews: “Okay, who wants a shitload of overtime?” |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 5:03:28 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: It can't be far down. Starship is supposed to land a diverse crew on the moon in 2025...maybe December but that will slip. For landing and takeoff from the moon only. Different requirements. Thing like an escape system for earth launches would be pointless there. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/5/2023 5:05:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RinsableTick: We went on vacation in South Padre last week and we drove over to Boca Chica/SpaceX on Monday morning, 6/26. No need to post pics, as there's plenty of pics online that are better than I can take. It was incredible! My two biggest takeaways were 1) gosh this place is remote. There's NOTHING out here. NO public facilities...I had to pee behind a dumpster. And 2) holy crap this place is busy! Everywhere you look was non-stop infrastructure expansion. I don't mean people standing around watching others work, I mean continuous construction, everywhere you look. Rockets being assembled here, megabay being constructed there, another building there, a trench with cables in it going from the Spaceport to the launch tower area, non-stop trucks, truck, and more trucks! Like, watch where you're walking so you don't get flattened! We parked right near the Rocket Garden and saw the Starships and Heavy Boosters there, as close as we could get. I met a photographer named Chief who works for What About It youtube channel, and he helped point out what I was looking at. I highly recommend going there if you get the chance. And remember this is just their r&d facility. It's not at all the scale of what elon has in mind for the cape probably. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
