Maybe you should do something that brings the pro-Ukraine crowd into the Republican umbrella instead of taking an automatic contrarian stance. That's what Trump was, and I stress was, really good at. He brought a lot of people together who were sick of Washington.

In order to win my vote he has to work for it. That's how it's supposed to work.



Techsan02: Would these be effective on people who cross the border illegally?

(When asked about DPICM)

Don't have to, they literally have said it here

If you go to any border thread you see the exact same thing.



Just like Javelin missiles to Mexico, right




It's not unrealistic to expect those who say to others "Go to Ukraine and fight" to hold them to their own standards otherwise it's a bit hypocritical on their part.



Was it a "progressive" position when Trump was doing it?

Was it a "progressive" position when American soldiers were running training missions with Ukrainians to help them become better tankers?

Not one bit.



I find it very interesting that according to some folks you have to go to Ukraine and fight and can't have an opinion supporting them without that BUT there's also this?




Or we don't like people who put American cities on their nukes and hate bullies



We are experiencing a problem we failed to rectify a year and a half ago that Trump also failed to fix.

Thankfully we are getting there to address it.

Oh, and we didn't just have the commander of a fleet waxed in a meeting with his senior leaders and lose a CVN, couple DDs/FFGs damaged, and some amphib transport ships lost.



How much have you donated to the border?

How much realistically can gofundme handle to prosecute a war across 1000 miles?



You're not on block. It's not wrong to expect people to live up to their own expectations for others.

When I show up at my Dollar General for my shift I expect my minions to be in uniform and on time. I also should be in uniform and on time. It'd be pretty hypocritical of me to expect my subordinates to show up at 0600 but I roll in at 0610, smell of alcohol, and have a bad shave, wouldn't it?



4) People who like seeing bad guys catch VOG30 grenades and a traditional American enemy to get humiliated.

Trump was also pro-Ukraine and deployed Americans to help train them until it became cool among "conservative" circles to be contrarian.





I remember when I was singled out for refusing the clot shot and had to attend mandatory meetings that were discriminatory, degrading, and singled out people.



Maybe he doesn't like people who shoot missiles at his city and kill his countrymen?

The Democrats want to drag this out because their kickbacks continue as long as this conflict continues.

On a tax basis, is it more expensive than a monthly subscription to Netflix? Those Ukraine war videos have some good content.

Until we get our house in order we have zero reason to be sending our money abroad.

It won't be just naval and air, you even admit Korea and Japan will be first.  Those fights will be ground based, we have a lot of troops already there.  In reality Chinese A2AD means naval and air power won't get anywhere near striking distance until land is taken and that bubble gets pushed back.  Taiwan is just one piece of the Chinese threat to us, and not even the worst one.

You also can't "sequence them" if your pants are completely down the window for the most dangerous course of action, which is where we are headed.  Running out of everything for the enemy that poses little direct threat and your most dangerous foe attacking within the 5-7 year gap it's going to take you to rebuild afterwards isn't a great plan. We are already struggling, and Europe is fucking bone dry....not just from passing on surplus to support Ukraine, they gave away their functional individual military equipment too.  This means more and more will be leveraged on us and we have well surpassed the point to where we are affecting our actual readiness.

We are already looking at a guaranteed third year of this conflict, we are past the surplus model of support, Europe is cashed, and munition expenditures are more monthly than we can replace in years in some cases, with very little chance of anything other than moderated armistice.  This is no longer worth accepting massive strategic risk with China.

In theory your ideas make sense, but it's obvious you have no idea how any of this actually works.  Your thoughts are hopes and dreams in print.

When will that be?

Ever?

There is broad bipartisan support for this contrary to the claims of code pink Republicans

Here's the news:

If we can't afford this fight without also fighting China then we sure as hell won't be able to afford to fight both together. That's a hard reality and shirking from this fight doesn't solve anything

Contrary to what you claim we are not degrading our carrier fleets to supply Ukraine, and those are what will fight in Taiwan.

We do need to ramp up defense production and we do need to adapt to what we have learned about war from this conflict. Cut from the other 94.5% of the defense budget and do that.

The 6.5% of the defense budget that we are spending to take down Russia has nothing to do with "our house" or whether it is "in order".

The problems with the "order" in "our house" relate to overspending on social programs, especially COVID relief spending and the inflation it caused

Ironically it looks like the next election will be a contest between the two guilty parties that caused all that spending: the names on those checks were Trump and  Biden.

At any rate we do not need to stack rank our problems and solve them one by one, that's a ridiculous thing to say

Japan will be ground based?  LOL. Holy Fuck.

How is China going to invade Japan?

Let me guess, a sea based amphibious landing?  With their 3 amphibious assault ships and 6 LCACs, supported by 1-2 carriers...maybe?

Backed by paratroopers bailing out of commercial airliners and their 58 Y-20 cargo planes dropping IFVs? You might want to familiarize yourself with exactly what China's ability to pick this fight amounts to, using what hardware?

They don't have the steel, or the logistics to invade Taiwan right now, much less Japan.

Their 3 assault ships total 2700 men, on shore, in an amphibious assault, they've never done before, supported by 2 carrier fleets (maybe) that have never been to war before, supported by a couple thousand paratroopers, who have never jumped in a real war before?

Nevermind the fact, that both forms of attack are viewed as non-starters in modern warefare.  Taiwan isn't going to be a pushover like Grenada or Panama.  

So how else is China going to dump and army in Taiwan or Japan for that matter?

South Korea isn't going to be much better, like Ukraine is finding out assaulting fortifications and breeching something like the DMZ under bombardment isn't going to go well, it's going to be absolutely miserable after we shootdown their Russian knock-off air force and we are annhilating them from aerial bombardment.  South Korea is heavily fortified from a ground invasion, both NK and China are under no illusions as to the cost of that fight.

And as I stated before we are in no danger of depleting stockpiles, you're hand wringing over articles about 155mm shells.  As was pointed out to you earlier, if we are running out of munitions supporting Ukraine after nearly 2 years, we'd be fucked in any real fight with China, which we aren't.  

In my career I've spend a lot of time on several AF bases and a few bomb dumps across the world including few throughout PACAF.  We aren't giving Ukraine any heavy ordnance that is going to be pivotal in stopping any real invasion. The US being short on 155mm shells really means, we have got to our mandatory minimums throughout worldwide stockpiles until our manufacturing catches up, until then here's some from SK.

We haven't touched anything the AF is going to be dropping on China, from the 1000+ aircraft we have positioned throughout the Pacific.  The stockpiles of 500lb, 1000lb, 2000lb, 2500lb, 5000lb, JDAMs, Paveways, Bunker Busters, MOABs, etc. aren't being given to Ukraine and they won't be for the foreseeable future, simply because Ukraine has no ability to use such ordnance.

A picture of what Chinese land invasion on Taiwan would look like is that within 48 hours, whatever fleet China brings with be on the bottom of the ocean, their AF will never get to the drop and they will be attempting to bombard with TU-16s supported by knock-offs Migs and Sukhois.

"In reality Chinese A2AD means naval and air power won't get anywhere near striking distance."  -

This statement is so ridiculous...first off there are already about 500 aircraft already in the Chinese first and second layers of the A2AD, as we speak.  There are fleets of F-16s stationed in Osan, Kunsan, and Misawa, not including Taiwanese and Korean F-16s. F-15s on Kadena, and A-10s in Osan.  Typically 2-3 squadrons of F-15s, F-16s, A-10s, F-22 and F-35s, on plus-up TDY rotations in Korea and Kadena.
With constant rotations of B-52's, B-1s, and B-2s on Diego Garcia and Guam,  Not including at least 2 maybe 3 carrier battle groups and how many other Navy and Marine F-18 assets stationed on other NASs in the Pacific?  Toss in a couple more fleets of F-15s, and F-22s from Hickam, and possible support of the RAAF in Australia, if not aircraft definitely basing, rearm and fuel.

So, in order for China to make a successful landing it has to deal with all that first, literally sitting on it's doorstep.  Keep in mind basically doing all that perfectly...for the very first time.  Not to mention the hundred+ B-52s, B-1s, and B-2s that are going to be coming non-stop, from stateside bases and launching cruise missiles from hundreds of miles out to overwhelm a handful of SAMs on defensive islands, supported by hundreds of cruise missiles coming of navy subs and other fleet assets from Hawaii far outside the Chinese A2AD.  Then once all that movement happens in the first 48hrs, then comes the hundreds of F-15Es, from Elmendorf and Mt. Home, backed by Reserve, and ANG tankers coming from the west coast, dragging hundreds more fighters and bombers.  This exact scenerio has been wargamed and excercised over and over.  It never ends well for the Chinese.


Also you've made more very questionable statements.  "Running out of everything for the enemy that poses little direct threat."

What constitutes everything?  Explain, and back it up with something tangible.  How are we giving them everything, to dangerous levels when they have no ability to expend it?  We are running dangerously low on aerial delivery ordnance, even though we have given them little if anything over 250lb SDBs and they have no ability to deliver anything larger?

"We are already struggling", With what?  Manufacturing aerial munitions that we aren't even supplying them?

"We have well surpassed the point to where we are affecting our actual readiness.  - Again, how have we surpassed giving away munitions that effect our readiness, that we haven't given them because they have no ability to use it?  

"Munition expenditures are more monthly than we can replace in years in some cases." - Again, which munitions?  

What it sounds like you are bed wetting over is the article from NPR...(like they don't have an agenda) And your exasperation is over one single category of munition, 155mm.

https://www.npr.org/2023/04/07/1168725028/manufacturing-price-gauging-new-u-s-military-arms

No there isn't

He is either an American or he is not.  If he is, his countrymen are Ukrainian, they are Americans.

155.GMLRS. Stinger, Jav, Excalibur,  Patriot etc. not to mention the money being used by DoD to pay for the support of Ukraine is being pulled out of current year spending for training, readiness and R&D.  

Americans have been marching for freedom across the globe against bad guys of all kinds. His service fighting an American enemy under another flag doesn't remove his American citizenship or loyalties.

"The American pilots, though exhausted, fight tenaciously. During the last offensive, their commander attacked enemy formations from the rear, raining machine-gun bullets down on their heads. Without the American pilots' help, we would long ago have been done for."

1920 Soviet war against Poland under Polish colors

7th Air Escadrille

pre-WW2 fight against Japan under Nationalist China

Flying tigers?

I can go on.

They were not fighting for their countrymen they were fighting for other countries.  Why can you not understand Ukraine is not America and they are not our countrymen

In the case of the Flying Tigers they very well compensated

US split 50% / 50% but 70% of Republicans oppose Democrats about 8% increase in opposing further aid since last year https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/4-10-now-criticize-us-aid-ukraine/story?id=103444673

I get that. Freedom is a universal human concept and not strictly American.  



I understand they aren't. That doesn't change my statement. I'll help my brother any day because he is my brother. What does that say about me helping someone else?





Which makes folks who fight now for less or no money what?

This

They are no our allies, much less our countrymen.  

Have you ever seen the oath of allegiance new Americans must take?  



New Americans swear to end their allegiance to foreign lands.  Too bad native born Americans cannot take that to heart

There is so much wrong with literally everything you have posted here I don't even know where to begin. I'm hoping you've at least been in a coma for the past 5-10 years to justify your complete lack of current events.  

First off, you should understand that the Chinese A2AD problem set is much bigger than a "handful of SAMs".

Second, our munitions problems are way past 155's, although they are included in it. Our ability to make anything, much less complicated and expensive PGM's is strained right now.

You've got a few weeks of reading and catching up to do before you start posting again.

Weapons production:
https://ig.ft.com/us-defence-industry/

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/inability-to-quickly-replace-stinger-and-javelins-for-ukraine-highlights-industrial-base-problems/

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2023/03/us-artillery-production-ukraine-limited-lack-machine-tools-army-official-says/383615/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/19/artillery-ammunition-ukraine-pentagon/

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/18/politics/ukraine-critical-ammo-shortage-us-nato-grapple/index.html

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2022/04/26/as-raytheon-struggles-to-replenish-stinger-missiles-lawmaker-pushes-defense-production-act/

https://www.popsci.com/technology/stinger-missiles-raytheon-ukraine/

https://features.csis.org/preparing-the-US-industrial-base-to-deter-conflict-with-China/#:~:text=Missile%20obsolescence%2C%20tooling%2C%20and%20sub,capacity%20to%20meet%20surging%20demands

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/24/us/politics/military-weapons-ukraine-war.html

https://qz.com/this-chart-explains-why-the-us-is-running-low-on-missil-1849945208

https://www.wsj.com/articles/lockheed-martin-lmt-q1-earnings-report-2023-db3de58

https://news.usni.org/2022/04/27/u-s-missiles-sent-to-ukraine-arent-easily-replaced-panel-tells-senate

China:

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2020/06/01/chinas-missile-and-space-tech-is-creating-a-defensive-bubble-difficult-to-penetrate/

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2022/3/7/us-challenged-to-defend-against-chinese-missiles

https://www.thedefencehorizon.org/post/china-a2ad-strategy

https://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/chinas-growing-missile-arsenal-and-the-risk-of-a-taiwan-missile-crisis/

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1820.html

https://defense360.csis.org/bad-idea-turning-a2-ad-against-china-with-archipelagic-defense/

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_briefs/RB9800/RB9858z2/RAND_RB9858z2.pdf





Not really. The "news" is that modern warfare is unsustainable, and is reliant upon complicated, expensive systems that are not easily reproduced. Blowing our wad on something that poses no threat to us means having our pants around our ankles for the one that does.

Taiwan is one minor percentage of the problem, which involves the entire DOD, not just carrier groups. Any offensive action against China is going to rely on land based expeditionary basing throughout the Pacific. It doesn't matter if you agree or not, those are the facts.

https://engelsbergideas.com/essays/us-aiding-ukraine-wont-deter-china/

https://www.voanews.com/a/us-army-secretary-lays-out-strategy-for-war-with-china/6985136.html

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3827287-study-defense-industry-unprepared-for-war-with-china/

Oh, I see when you said we gave them "everything" and now we are running out of "everything" you were hand wringing over two limited man portable TACTICAL weapon systems.  Neither of which are detrimental to our STRATEGIC aerial offensive capabilities.

None of which is going to effect our ability to aerial bombard China with rest of the 99.99% of everything we have.  

If you bothered to really read the meat of most of the links you posting, they are referencing the same thing, oa couple defense think tanks reports that came out about 8-9 months ago.  That was then parroted by CNN, NYT, WaPo, NPR, etc. You can post 10 links, that are largely saying the same thing because the are based on the same in formation, those same reports say the exact same thing, we are running low on 155mm, javelins and stingers.  Sure, got it.

Look at your sources CNN, NYT, WaPo, NPR...they are all suddenly concerned and hawkish, about ramping up production on the 3 things that basically saved Ukraine's ass.

And you're not asking a very important question, why are these Left leaning sources pushing this?  

Well that answer is simple, we need to ensure that the money keeps flowing to produce these.  The defense think tanks, blow up an issue, that issue is going to be a threat to the future of the Biden Administration and the money needs to go into production to keep this war effort going.  It has nothing to do will our ability to deal with China.  It has everything to do with keeping Biden and Democrats in power and shilling money to the defense industry.

"Taiwan is one minor percentage of the problem, which involves the entire DOD, not just carrier groups. Any offensive action against China is going to rely on land based expeditionary basing throughout the Pacific. It doesn't matter if you agree or not, those are the facts."

Oh, no shit?  You means AEFs?  Like 6 months in Osan or Kunsan?  Or Deigo, or Guam, or Kadena or Hickam, maybe Clark AB, or basing out of Australia?

When you're saying "land based expeditionary forces", well no
shit, it's land based "air expeditionary forces" that are already established on US airbases already in China's A2AD. This shit has already been planned out, and war gamed for decades, we're  already way ahead of you my dude.  I spent 6 years in Kadena and Osan, I've been assigned to those "land based expeditionary forces."

This is where your lack of knowledge and understanding of what you are reading comes in.

They aren't talking about a ground based counter attack using Soldiers and Marines to meet the disembarking Chinese invasion force.  We aren't setting ourselves up to play the Nazi's on D-Day or the Japanese on Iwo Jima.

China's A2AD is mostly land based asbms, SAMs, subs, and ships, with asbms and subs in the first layer.  Few of those defense systems are going to effect aircraft launched cruise missiles heading toward their land based SAMs from 1000+ miles out on their defensive islands.

The second layer is subs and aircraft, this tier isn't going to be a great deterrence either as their aircraft are going to be stretched on fuel as that range then have to fight about 1000 aircraft of every type pushing into their airspace, then have fuel to get back...which they probably won't.  So, how much of China's AF is going to be left after that?  And subs...pssst, we have our own subs, and they are a lot more advanced and we have a lot more of them than China.  ;)

If everything I'm saying is so wrong then you explain how China's A2AD id going keep all out aircraft from the invasion force?  Especially the 500+ land based aircraft from about 10 different bases, that are already in their 2nd layer?  

10 years in a coma?  LOL, They call that the soju experience.

Well, I spent 3 years in Korea as a Pro Super generating those aircraft, I haven't been hand wringing and bed wetting over rehashed NPR, NYT and CNN news articles.

I know that at any given time in the greater Pacific theater there are nearly 1000 aircraft that are immediately available for this fight, specifically.  

I have spent a lot more time in Kadena and Osan's bomb dumbs than any of the people who wrote any of those articles.

I also know that 155mm shells, javelins, and stingers are going to have fuck all to do with the first month of that fight.

I really have to ask at this point, is that what you are envisioning?  You seem to not be connecting the dots.  You think that we have to fight into China's A2AD, in order to land our own counter amphibious forces to repel a Chinese invasion?

News flash, we're already well into their A2AD, they have to eliminate all of our combined forces, before they even launch a full scale invasion in order to keep us from sinking their extremely limited invasion force as it currently stands.

But since you seem to trust the agenda of defense think tanks, look up the 2049 Project assessment of our sub capabilities are in a sub-only defense of Taiwan.  Long story short our subs alone would sink the entire Chinese Navy in about two weeks, with the loss of 10-12 boats, and the loss of about  2000 sailors.  

Let that sink in.  Chinese Invasion defeated by subs alone, two weeks, 12 boats and 2000 lost.

Subs, by themselves.

Additionally, B-52s using stealth cruise missiles, AGM-158C LRASMs, they have figured would do it in lees time and with incurring substantially less casualties and asset losses.

Funny thing. The powers that be who wrote the NSS think you're a bit under educated

Ooops
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/04/politics/cnn-poll-ukraine/index.html
Overall, 55% say the US Congress should not authorize additional funding to support Ukraine vs. 45% who say Congress should authorize such funding. And 51% say that the US has already done enough to help Ukraine while 48% say it should do more.

The news comes as a recent Fox News poll found that 56% of Republicans say the U.S. should be sending less support to Ukraine.

And since they blocked the votes last week, what makes you think that will change just because McCarthy flip flopped. He literally said the day before UKR aid was out.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4216113-house-conservatives-defeat-second-attempt-to-advance-pentagon-funding-bill/

They keep repeating that lie as if it's their job

He's not fighting. He's larping that he is some training guru. I've read the silly ass posts in the main thread.

This You?
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National Guardsmen Appear to Give Ladder to Illegals During Live Report
via @planettoday #PlanetToday: https://www.planet-today.com/2023/09/national-guardsmen-appear-to-give.html

The Putin-love is disgustingly strong in GD lately.

Like I said, it sure looks like you retired 10 years ago because you just parroted the viewpoint from that era.

None of this is what is being discussed now.

Our prepo forces are enough to repel the Chinese? That's news to every WFX and study done on the matter, who have come to the conclusion that they aren't even enough to handle north Korea on their own without any direct Chinese intervention.

Yes, Korea, the very much still active tactical problem that still exists and requires a lot of these systems we are divesting.

And last time I checked, Patriot wasn't a tactical system, HIMARS aren't hand launched..  You may also want to talk to the Marines, who reorganized their entire force around a threat that you say doesn't exist.

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"modern warfare is unsustainable, and is reliant upon complicated, expensive systems that are not easily reproduced."

IMO, with the addendum of 'modern warfare against a near-peer opponent' the above is a factor as to why the Russian-Ukrainian conflict is in an attritional phase.
(Other factors being the mass proliferation of inexpensive drones and loitering munitions)

So buying souvenirs is your great contribution to the cause?

One thing the air force has not factored into the general planning processes are the impacts those drones and loitering munitions have had upon a modern MDO conflict, ala Ukraine.

They claimed to be able to conduct most of the air defense capabilities at the short and medium ranges, then retracted that when the Chinese missile reality sunk in.  Now with group 3+ drones\OWAs that ship has sailed completely out of sight and we still have no current answer.

I highly doubt too many GDers love Putin.  Most of us don't want to waste money on Ukraine and we sure as hell don't want to send US troops there.

Yes our subs are far superior. China’s best subs only match our older class but you’re wrong on numbers. https://warriormaven.com/china/us-vs-china-naval-war-china-larger-yet-us-navy-has-more-carriers-destroyers#:~:text=China%20is%20reported%20to%20have,build%20Virginia%2Dclass%20attack%20submarines
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In fairness to Fadedsun, more than one member has either equated the wide open US border and the Russian invasion of Ukraine, or prioritized our border issue. He didn't just pull that out of his ass.

The common theme I hear from the “all in balls deep” crowd is China isn’t a threat to which I respond hope is not a plan https://www.voanews.com/amp/stoltenberg-we-must-prepare-ourselves-for-a-long-war-in-ukraine/7271786.html
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It can be. The US can sell lots of equipment and reconstruction. Set up all kinds of deals where they have to prioritize American products. For example, all Ukrainian airlines could be given a great incentive to purchase Boeing instead of Airbus, or American made tractors instead of European.

We did similar after WWII in Europe. I think it will be harder this time though.

No more, period.

Its not our responsibility per say, but, every time we have shown weakness on the world stage, one or more of our enemies has become more aggressive. Biden declared war on the US energy sector, and at the same time capitulated to the Taliban in Afghanistan. That wasn't the reason Putin invaded Ukraine, but I bet US weakness entered into his calculations.

IDK if our fairly strong response to Russian aggression has given China, North Korea, Iran, etc, pause, but had we done nothing, I believe the  cost in treasure and lives around the world would have been more costly eventually. Just my opinion.

South China Sea islands, Korean Peninsula - land

I could get down with that. If it is that important let's just take it from them both.

Bipartisan in Senate not in House and the public according to the latest  September poll shows a 50/50 split republicans 70% oppose and Democrats 70% for or did you mean since February 2022 bipartisan for public and Congress at the start?

With the tightened, contrary to GD military industrial complex outrage, budgets pre and post Trump the Navy is pushing that notion and the balls deep Ukraine crowd on GD but it’s not factually accurate https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4733798
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Not to mention that China's A2AD now extends to Hawaii with still no answer.

IMO - give Ukraine what they need to end the war.

I have great concerns about China - but I do not see how pulling all support from UKR at this point doesn't just allow Russia to rebuild for future conflicts...

I follow Chinese propaganda/media...the CCP does not want RU to lose decisively.  Shouldn't we want what they don't want?

To a degree true but you yourself posted about China using diversionary wars to distract from a Taiwan attack and with tightened military budgets, abysmal recruiting and a smaller and aging USAF and USN that would be stretched on 2 fronts  {Europe not being one of those} the military is pushing it. The USN Secretary hasn’t updated since January statements but the DOD has stated Ukraine has not affected readiness nor ammunition production for DOD needs, as of August 2023 but the Sec Nav stated he’d update by December. All this may be mute if the House sinks funding or funding for Ukraine on the scale Ukraine requires.