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Posted: 6/16/2024 7:39:39 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As gun manufacturing advances, and becomes more automated, the variations between individual examples of a given make and model are decreasing. Take 50 Sigs 320s made yesterday and a box of ammo. Fire one round from each gun. No one can match each fired bullet to the gun it was fired from. No kidding! Where did you learn that? |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:07:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No kidding! Where did you learn that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As gun manufacturing advances, and becomes more automated, the variations between individual examples of a given make and model are decreasing. Take 50 Sigs 320s made yesterday and a box of ammo. Fire one round from each gun. No one can match each fired bullet to the gun it was fired from. No kidding! Where did you learn that? I dated the head of one of the largest crime labs in California. Rough timeline from memory: 1990s: crime labs realize modern handguns are near impossible to differentiate between guns of same make and model. 2000s: FBI discontinues ballistics matching testimony. 2022: scientific study determines it’s essentially “junk science” 2023: Courts start ruling the evidence/testimony inadmissible |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:14:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Last couple years. https://reason.com/2023/06/22/maryland-supreme-court-limits-testimony-on-bullet-matching-evidence/ Anyone that says they can take 20 fired 147Gn HST bullets fired from 20 different department issued Glocks and match the bullets to a particular gun is a liar Would have to do a test with multiple guns and bullets and make them prove they can actually match with a respectable degree of accuracy. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:17:06 PM EDT
[#4]
So which was the negligence?
1. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because "we want to and we can." 2. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because they mistook him for a robber. 3. Shooting the UPS driver by accident while trying to shoot the robber who was shooting at them. 4. Shooting back AT ALL because there was a hostage and other people / motorists around. What could/should they have done differently? It's important to figure that out, if we want to ensure this doesn't happen again. When this incident is made into a police training film, what is the PROPER response to a truck load of armed robbers firing at police/indiscriminately at passing motorists? We know from Uvalde is ISN'T "just stand behind cover and wait for the bad guy to give up." So what SHOULD they have done? It's easy to say "they should be in prison!" As of the time I started this post, I haven't seen anybody say, "if I had been there, I would have..... " |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:19:40 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:25:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Didn't a driver about 50yards down the road catch a round too?
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:28:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've always wondered about that. Would have to do a test with multiple guns and bullets and make them prove they can actually match with a respectable degree of accuracy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Last couple years. https://reason.com/2023/06/22/maryland-supreme-court-limits-testimony-on-bullet-matching-evidence/ Anyone that says they can take 20 fired 147Gn HST bullets fired from 20 different department issued Glocks and match the bullets to a particular gun is a liar Would have to do a test with multiple guns and bullets and make them prove they can actually match with a respectable degree of accuracy. They hedge their bets with answers like inconclusive and probable match too |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 9:21:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So which was the negligence? 1. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because "we want to and we can." 2. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because they mistook him for a robber. 3. Shooting the UPS driver by accident while trying to shoot the robber who was shooting at them. 4. Shooting back AT ALL because there was a hostage and other people / motorists around. What could/should they have done differently? It's important to figure that out, if we want to ensure this doesn't happen again. When this incident is made into a police training film, what is the PROPER response to a truck load of armed robbers firing at police/indiscriminately at passing motorists? We know from Uvalde is ISN'T "just stand behind cover and wait for the bad guy to give up." So what SHOULD they have done? It's easy to say "they should be in prison!" As of the time I started this post, I haven't seen anybody say, "if I had been there, I would have..... " Don't fire a single shot while the hostage is present unless you are nearly guaranteed to hit the hostage taker. The hostage didn't sign up for that risk. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 10:03:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Since the UPS driver had an "Edgar" haircut, will the defense attorney bring that up?
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Posted: 6/16/2024 11:38:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't fire a single shot while the hostage is present unless you are nearly guaranteed to hit the hostage taker. The hostage didn't sign up for that risk. I thought in hostage situations, it was SOP to shoot the hostage first. Then the bad guy has no leverage. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 11:46:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fixed it for you. Unless a cop is in the military reserves or National Guard, cops are civilians too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 20 officers there, 4 charged? Are they the only ones who fired their guns? Is the prosecution using debunked ballistics matching to try to say they know which guns fired the fatal bullets? Probably, their guns matched ballistics with the two dead Fixed it for you. Unless a cop is in the military reserves or National Guard, cops are civilians too. 
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Posted: 6/16/2024 11:52:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I dated the head of one of the largest crime labs in California. Rough timeline from memory: 1990s: crime labs realize modern handguns are near impossible to differentiate between guns of same make and model. 2000s: FBI discontinues ballistics matching testimony. 2022: scientific study determines it’s essentially “junk science” 2023: Courts start ruling the evidence/testimony inadmissible It is tool marking. You know that right? Polygonal barrels are different. I am 100% in agreement SOLELY because their markings are inconsistent and not deep enough. When looking at actual rifling, the marks are very easy to identify. 2 brand new rifled guns will mark the rounds differently. But let's look at the info you are spewing- 1990s... ya, know. Improvements in microscopes has INCREASE likelihood of identifying unique markings 2000s... FBI stopped providing a specific type and you are wrong on it being ballistic comparison. What they stopped was a content based analysis of ammunition. You knew that right? What metals that are in the rounds and comparing them to what the suspect had. 2022- What scientific study? It is tool marking. The closer the sample from the scene to the testing of the item, the more likely there will not be additional wear to ruin the chance for a match. It is really easy to see the markings and I am sure you can even see the similarities with your own eyes. 2023- Where is it inadmissible? Our state and federal cases use it frequently without an issue and I would love to read the case law you know about. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 4:07:26 AM EDT
[#13]
I'm not defending what the officers did. Firstly, because they were Dade county officers and the shootout happened in Broward. But in this state, if a bystander gets hit by a round, it's normally the perp who is charged with the crime. That would be the armed robbers.
Secondly, I think there's a little Helsinki going on here. The driver's fist day on the job, filling in for someone else. He exited the vehicle with something in his hand, and the officers who shot him were taking fire at the same time. I believe it was the scanner gun, that is used to scan packages. Lastly, FWIW, they couldn't see the other person who was shot. There was a big brown truck in the way, and they were under fire. Yeah, the whole deal sucks, but the robbers chose the time and place for it to go down that way. Everyone thinks the shootout from HEAT is the bees knees, and innocent people getting caught in the crossfire is a fact of life. In Dade county, no one would even raise an eyebrow to this. It's pretty much the way it is |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 5:25:33 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not defending what the officers did. Firstly, because they were Dade county officers and the shootout happened in Broward. But in this state, if a bystander gets hit by a round, it's normally the perp who is charged with the crime. That would be the armed robbers. Secondly, I think there's a little Helsinki going on here. The driver's fist day on the job, filling in for someone else. He exited the vehicle with something in his hand, and the officers who shot him were taking fire at the same time. I believe it was the scanner gun, that is used to scan packages. Lastly, FWIW, they couldn't see the other person who was shot. There was a big brown truck in the way, and they were under fire. Yeah, the whole deal sucks, but the robbers chose the time and place for it to go down that way. Everyone thinks the shootout from HEAT is the bees knees, and innocent people getting caught in the crossfire is a fact of life. In Dade county, no one would even raise an eyebrow to this. It's pretty much the way it is It’s a diad and nothing like a gun. Think of a slightly larger cellphone. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:15:17 AM EDT
[#15]
will be interesting to see where this goes -- trying to convict specific officers of specific results / cause of death
i agree the police response was egregious -- apparently over 150 rds fired. 'know your target and what is beyond' but i also think getting convictions is going to be difficult -- but i'm no lawyer |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:20:19 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So which was the negligence? 1. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because "we want to and we can." 2. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because they mistook him for a robber. 3. Shooting the UPS driver by accident while trying to shoot the robber who was shooting at them. 4. Shooting back AT ALL because there was a hostage and other people / motorists around. What could/should they have done differently? It's important to figure that out, if we want to ensure this doesn't happen again. When this incident is made into a police training film, what is the PROPER response to a truck load of armed robbers firing at police/indiscriminately at passing motorists? We know from Uvalde is ISN'T "just stand behind cover and wait for the bad guy to give up." So what SHOULD they have done? It's easy to say "they should be in prison!" As of the time I started this post, I haven't seen anybody say, "if I had been there, I would have..... " The circular firing squad and killing the hostage are a case of sometimes you get handed a shit sandwich with a side of shit and a free shit appetizer. In those situations you do the best you can and it probably isn't going to be good enough. What I find completely damning is the part where they took cover behind random innocents. Anyone remember the comic illustrating the difference between US trooos and goatfuckers? The one where the goatfucker is hiding behind a woman and child while the soldier is in front of a woman and child protecting them. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:25:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: will be interesting to see where this goes -- trying to convict specific officers of specific results / cause of death i agree the police response was egregious -- apparently over 150 rds fired. 'know your target and what is beyond' but i also think getting convictions is going to be difficult -- but i'm no lawyer Of course it’s going to be difficult. “Good cops” will show up and testify for the defense saying that this is in line with what reasonable officers will do. Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone here says that because 20 cops were involved it must be reasonable. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 11:28:49 AM EDT
[#18]
The driver, Frank Ordonez, had already been shot at least once when he tried to flee the van. His chest was on the pavement, arms at his side, feet still in the vehicle. He was continuously shot. I am trying to find the uncensorted video, but it appears everything has been taken down or blurred.
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Posted: 6/17/2024 11:42:34 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not defending what the officers did. Firstly, because they were Dade county officers and the shootout happened in Broward?But in this state, if a bystander gets hit by a round, it's normally the perp who is charged with the crime. That would be the armed robbers. Secondly, I think there's a little Helsinki going on here. The driver's fist day on the job, filling in for someone else. He exited the vehicle with something in his hand, and the officers who shot him were taking fire at the same time. I believe it was the scanner gun, that is used to scan packages. Lastly, FWIW, they couldn't see the other person who was shot. There was a big brown truck in the way, and they were under fire. Yeah, the whole deal sucks, but the robbers chose the time and place for it to go down that way. Everyone thinks the shootout from HEAT is the bees knees, and innocent people getting caught in the crossfire is a fact of life. In Dade county, no one would even raise an eyebrow to this. It's pretty much the way it is What’s your take on this? The initial robbery/shooting at the jewelry store was in Coral Gables (Dade). The UPS car jacking occurred in Dade. They fled north on 75 into Broward. Fresh pursuit is both legal and common in Florida. Jurisdiction lines don’t necessarily apply in an incident like this. However, I find it curious that the counties are two different judicial circuits. Broward, where the shooting occurred only charged Dade officers. Miramar and Pembroke Pines officers, both Broward agencies, were also involved. Were they able to eliminate any of the rounds from those officers? There might be some politics at play with where blame is being cast. FDLE gave Broward the results of the investigation several years ago and they are just now acting, sparing their own officers from charges. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 11:46:26 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s crazy that they ever could. Why would 500 Glock 17 barrels rifled tomorrow be noticeably different in the rifling? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Oh wow! I had no idea. I thought each gun's bbl was unique because even when using the same rifling reamer there will be unique, individual artifacts from the process. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0379073818306893?via%3Dihub https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/04/08/miami-glock-barrels/ https://www.policechiefmagazine.org/the-miami-barrel/ Thank you. I had no idea that polygonal was difficult to identify. As gun manufacturing advances, and becomes more automated, the variations between individual examples of a given make and model are decreasing. Take 50 Sigs 320s made yesterday and a box of ammo. Fire one round from each gun. No one can match each fired bullet to the gun it was fired from. damn. That's crazy how tight the manufacturing tolerances have gotten then. Never in my life would I think tha twe couldn't trace a round to a bbl. It’s crazy that they ever could. Why would 500 Glock 17 barrels rifled tomorrow be noticeably different in the rifling? Wear on the tooling? Roy |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 12:07:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wear on the tooling? Roy if you are having noticeable tool wear to that degree across only 500 barrels it is time to either fire your machine operators or sue the tool manufacturer. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 12:09:10 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: if you are having noticeable tool wear to that degree across only 500 barrels it is time to either fire your machine operators or sue the tool manufacturer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wear on the tooling? Roy if you are having noticeable tool wear to that degree across only 500 barrels it is time to either fire your machine operators or sue the tool manufacturer. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 12:10:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The circular firing squad and killing the hostage are a case of sometimes you get handed a shit sandwich with a side of shit and a free shit appetizer. In those situations you do the best you can and it probably isn't going to be good enough. What I find completely damning is the part where they took cover behind random innocents. Anyone remember the comic illustrating the difference between US trooos and goatfuckers? The one where the goatfucker is hiding behind a woman and child while the soldier is in front of a woman and child protecting them. Every damn time there is a shooting cops take cover behind occupied vehicles.. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 12:17:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Last couple years. https://reason.com/2023/06/22/maryland-supreme-court-limits-testimony-on-bullet-matching-evidence/ Anyone that says they can take 20 fired 147Gn HST bullets fired from 20 different department issued Glocks and match the bullets to a particular gun is a liar Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 20 officers there, 4 charged? Are they the only ones who fired their guns? Is the prosecution using debunked ballistics matching to try to say they know which guns fired the fatal bullets? Probably, their guns matched ballistics with the two dead civilians. Except thats junk science Pardon my ignorance, but when was that determined? Last couple years. https://reason.com/2023/06/22/maryland-supreme-court-limits-testimony-on-bullet-matching-evidence/ Anyone that says they can take 20 fired 147Gn HST bullets fired from 20 different department issued Glocks and match the bullets to a particular gun is a liar That's rumored to be the reason for the Glock Marksman barrel to have some conventional rifling. Kharn |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 12:30:26 PM EDT
[#25]
That sub-human monster got off after killing Daniel Shaver. This isn't quite as bad as that case so I suspect none of these four will see a day in the can.
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Posted: 6/17/2024 12:40:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That sub-human monster got off after killing Daniel Shaver. This isn't quite as bad as that case so I suspect none of these four will see a day in the can. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 12:56:25 PM EDT
[#27]
Screen names of indicated cops??
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Posted: 6/17/2024 1:07:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The circular firing squad and killing the hostage are a case of sometimes you get handed a shit sandwich with a side of shit and a free shit appetizer. In those situations you do the best you can and it probably isn't going to be good enough. What I find completely damning is the part where they took cover behind random innocents. Anyone remember the comic illustrating the difference between US trooos and goatfuckers? The one where the goatfucker is hiding behind a woman and child while the soldier is in front of a woman and child protecting them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So which was the negligence? 1. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because "we want to and we can." 2. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because they mistook him for a robber. 3. Shooting the UPS driver by accident while trying to shoot the robber who was shooting at them. 4. Shooting back AT ALL because there was a hostage and other people / motorists around. What could/should they have done differently? It's important to figure that out, if we want to ensure this doesn't happen again. When this incident is made into a police training film, what is the PROPER response to a truck load of armed robbers firing at police/indiscriminately at passing motorists? We know from Uvalde is ISN'T "just stand behind cover and wait for the bad guy to give up." So what SHOULD they have done? It's easy to say "they should be in prison!" As of the time I started this post, I haven't seen anybody say, "if I had been there, I would have..... " The circular firing squad and killing the hostage are a case of sometimes you get handed a shit sandwich with a side of shit and a free shit appetizer. In those situations you do the best you can and it probably isn't going to be good enough. What I find completely damning is the part where they took cover behind random innocents. Anyone remember the comic illustrating the difference between US trooos and goatfuckers? The one where the goatfucker is hiding behind a woman and child while the soldier is in front of a woman and child protecting them. There are too many incidences of officers acting out of obvious fear, panic, and blatant disregard these days. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 1:32:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Screen names of indicated cops?? ?????? |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 1:34:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That sub-human monster got off after killing Daniel Shaver. This isn't quite as bad as that case so I suspect none of these four will see a day in the can. Quote HistoryQuoted: That sub-human monster got off after killing Daniel Shaver. This isn't quite as bad as that case so I suspect none of these four will see a day in the can. Brailsford shot Shaver once IIRC. Frank Ordonez got lit the fuck up, fell down with his arms outstretched in continuing surrender, and got lit the fuck up some more, and some more for good measure. I'm not sure it's less bad than Shaver. It's less prosecutable than the Shaver murder, because we don't have a video proving who shot Ordonez and because it happened during a legitimate gunfight. Quoted: And that murderer got to ''retire'' with a medical pension of $2500 a month. Brailsford only got $30k/yr? I assumed it was worse/more than that. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 1:37:46 PM EDT
[#31]
I think it's fair for the murderers to get out of prison when the victims come back to life.
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Posted: 6/17/2024 2:06:56 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sadly, due to demographics, politics, and generational trends, the average cop on the street in 2024 FIFY - The puzzling thing is the number of out of State LEO's who uncork their tampons to defend their pride flag like it's something the founders would have endorsed. Imagine if someone like FreefallRet or 18B50 started T-Bagging posters for not understanding how hard MAJ Hassan's job was because he was a Soldier and they aren't. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 3:17:43 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So which was the negligence? 1. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because "we want to and we can." 2. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because they mistook him for a robber. 3. Shooting the UPS driver by accident while trying to shoot the robber who was shooting at them. 4. Shooting back AT ALL because there was a hostage and other people / motorists around. What could/should they have done differently? It's important to figure that out, if we want to ensure this doesn't happen again. When this incident is made into a police training film, what is the PROPER response to a truck load of armed robbers firing at police/indiscriminately at passing motorists? We know from Uvalde is ISN'T "just stand behind cover and wait for the bad guy to give up." So what SHOULD they have done? It's easy to say "they should be in prison!" As of the time I started this post, I haven't seen anybody say, "if I had been there, I would have..... " Thats easy. . . Ever see those big magnets on the end of a crane in scrap yards? Just attach one of those to a cargo sized helicopter. It flys over and attaches to the roof of any perps car and plucks it right up in the air out of traffic and flys it to the closest police impound yard. Easy peasy. Our politicians really need to think outside the box. Geeeese . |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 3:21:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That sub-human monster got off after killing Daniel Shaver. This isn't quite as bad as that case so I suspect none of these four will see a day in the can. RIP fellow Tool fan. 
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Posted: 6/17/2024 3:27:28 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't fire a single shot while the hostage is present unless you are nearly guaranteed to hit the hostage taker. The hostage didn't sign up for that risk. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So which was the negligence? 1. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because "we want to and we can." 2. Shooting the UPS driver on purpose because they mistook him for a robber. 3. Shooting the UPS driver by accident while trying to shoot the robber who was shooting at them. 4. Shooting back AT ALL because there was a hostage and other people / motorists around. What could/should they have done differently? It's important to figure that out, if we want to ensure this doesn't happen again. When this incident is made into a police training film, what is the PROPER response to a truck load of armed robbers firing at police/indiscriminately at passing motorists? We know from Uvalde is ISN'T "just stand behind cover and wait for the bad guy to give up." So what SHOULD they have done? It's easy to say "they should be in prison!" As of the time I started this post, I haven't seen anybody say, "if I had been there, I would have..... " Don't fire a single shot while the hostage is present unless you are nearly guaranteed to hit the hostage taker. The hostage didn't sign up for that risk. Did anyone tell the robbers/kidnappers not to shot at the cops? Do you think they would have left the hostage go unharmed? We live in the Lone Ranger universe. Good guys shot the guns out of bad guys hands without hurting them. The bad guys shoot hundreds or even thousands of rounds at cops and never hit them. I don’t like the loss of innocent life. Based on the fact they were taking fire, I support the police. The prosecution is nothing but anti police persecution. Somebody said any court judgements should come out of the police pension fund. How would that work? There is a contract selling out how pensions are paid. You can’t reduce their pensions without violating the contract. Illinois has a constitutional requirement to pay public pensions even if they cannot pay for basic services. If you were able to defund the pensions, who would take the job? |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 4:25:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The prosecution is nothing but anti police persecution. A year after the Parkland school shooting?  |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 5:03:24 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What’s your take on this? The initial robbery/shooting at the jewelry store was in Coral Gables (Dade). The UPS car jacking occurred in Dade. They fled north on 75 into Broward. Fresh pursuit is both legal and common in Florida. Jurisdiction lines don’t necessarily apply in an incident like this. However, I find it curious that the counties are two different judicial circuits. Broward, where the shooting occurred only charged Dade officers. Miramar and Pembroke Pines officers, both Broward agencies, were also involved. Were they able to eliminate any of the rounds from those officers? There might be some politics at play with where blame is being cast. FDLE gave Broward the results of the investigation several years ago and they are just now acting, sparing their own officers from charges. Sounds about right. Broward had their Sheriff removed after Parkland. The guy they put in his place had wn undisclosed murder case from when he was a juvenile, and he is still Sheriff. Course, everything is just hunky dorey. IDK if any of the other agencies actually fired their weapons. Guess we'll have to wait and see. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 5:28:31 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wear on the tooling? Roy The problem is the same Mandrel can last for 10K barrels (or more) with little to no perceptable wear - especially with the soft curves of polygonal rifling. There is no cutting involved with a CHF barrel and the product turned out by those Austrian machines is crazy consistent. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 8:52:52 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did anyone tell the robbers/kidnappers not to shot at the cops? Do you think they would have left the hostage go unharmed? We live in the Lone Ranger universe. Good guys shot the guns out of bad guys hands without hurting them. The bad guys shoot hundreds or even thousands of rounds at cops and never hit them. I don't like the loss of innocent life. Based on the fact they were taking fire, I support the police. The prosecution is nothing but anti police persecution. Somebody said any court judgements should come out of the police pension fund. How would that work? There is a contract selling out how pensions are paid. You can't reduce their pensions without violating the contract. Illinois has a constitutional requirement to pay public pensions even if they cannot pay for basic services. If you were able to defund the pensions, who would take the job? |
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