This is a carry issue because I strongly feel a well trained person carrying concealed such as myself would have saved lives.

I go to college and not one of my classes have talked about the massacre at V. tech. I am a sociology major and we look at how society would have some responsibility in socializing someone into doing such acts. Don't get mad thinking I am blaming society, I'm not.

This is an act on historical proportions and I wanted people's opinion on the issue and that is why I posted the topic on the date the massacre happened. Is the act so intense people simply don't want to talk about it or they just don't care ad think it would never happe to them?

I to am a sociology major.  It really is interesting the way everyone is reacting.  

Hmmn, look at the letters to the editor in you school newspaper.  Here in AZ in both the ASU and UofA newspapers for the last week there has been nothing but we need more gun control and Gun control kills people letters.

What more do you want?

Here is the one I wrote, was in the Wednesday State Press:


We have recently seen a tragedy of monumental proportions in Virginia. Unfortunately, like jackals before the bodies are in the ground, the shrill voices of the anti-gun crowd are already calling out for more gun control. The sad fact is however, that the far left had made such a travesty possible. It should now be apparent to everyone that a weapons free zone is nothing more than a shooting gallery for the criminally deranged. We have allowed the left to turn our campuses into victim disarmament zones, and we have reaped the consequences.

Sadly, a bill to allow licensed and trained individuals to carry means to protect themselves, Virginia House Bill 1572, failed to pass the Virginia legislature in January.

At the time Larry Hincker, a spokesman for Virginia Tech, was quoted praising the bill's defeat with the words, "This will help parents, students and faculty feel safe on our campus." Allowing trained and licensed students to protect themselves would have made them safe.

It is time to end the experiment. It's time to abandon the wishful thinking of the left. It's time to tear down the victim disarmament zones.

Nice Letter

Quoted: Hmmn, look at the letters to the editor in you school newspaper.  Here in AZ in both the ASU and UofA newspapers for the last week there has been nothing but we need more gun control and Gun control kills people letters. What more do you want? Here is the one I wrote, was in the Wednesday State Press: We have recently seen a tragedy of monumental proportions in Virginia. Unfortunately, like jackals before the bodies are in the ground, the shrill voices of the anti-gun crowd are already calling out for more gun control. The sad fact is however, that the far left had made such a travesty possible. It should now be apparent to everyone that a weapons free zone is nothing more than a shooting gallery for the criminally deranged. We have allowed the left to turn our campuses into victim disarmament zones, and we have reaped the consequences. Sadly, a bill to allow licensed and trained individuals to carry means to protect themselves, Virginia House Bill 1572, failed to pass the Virginia legislature in January. At the time Larry Hincker, a spokesman for Virginia Tech, was quoted praising the bill's defeat with the words, "This will help parents, students and faculty feel safe on our campus." Allowing trained and licensed students to protect themselves would have made them safe. It is time to end the experiment. It's time to abandon the wishful thinking of the left. It's time to tear down the victim disarmament zones.

Yes, nice letter.

And the question that's been on my mind all week is this:

Were any of the murdered, wounded or other students/staff in the engineering building licensed CCW holders who had been prohibited by University edict (not VA state law) from carrying their weapons, therefore prevented from saving lives?

From a college-level sociology perspective, not much sense in talking about it at this time, as so little solid information is available.   I'm sure that the incident will become a mainstay of several types of classes, but from an instructor's perspective I (and others) tend to try to work from a "facts" position as much as possible.

A lot of people are very confused about the whole situation.  From this vantage point, it's obvious that the shooter was mentally unstable, should have been institutionalized for his own safety and that of others (as he was on at least one previous occasion) and that "the system" somehow managed to drop the ball in not connecting a court ordered commitment to NICS so that the instant background check could stop him.  That's a lot of issues to handle.

I saw a piece on PBS on Sunday with a number of conservative and not conservative people arguing their heads off about what the cause was.  One said sunsetting the AWB was the problem (and Bush was to blame), while another thought that the shooter was "spraying" bullets-and did not see the difference between semi- and full-auto weapons.  I tuned away after two minutes.  A LOT of people are concerned about this event.  But until ALL the facts are available NOBODY has more than a tiny advantage of "truth" to use to make a point.

The "truth" is that a LOT of things went wrong on a lot of different occasions, and, unfortunately for pundits and commentators, there is no single fix to prevent this again.  However, there are a lot of issues to keep in mind and handy to discuss.  Like how Scottland has recently BANNED SWORDS because since they banned all firearms, badguy have been using swords to hurt and kill.  Hmmm.  The UK's crime rate went up immediately after the latest UK-wide firearms ban, and that increase has been accelerating.  Australia has had similar bad experience.  Banning firearms is a BAD idea here too-look at DC and how it's draconian banning laws have "protected" its citizens.

He legally obtained his firearm.  Even if he couldn't he would have found a way to get one.  Gun control hurts the responsible citizens.  If someone wants a gun to do harm with it they are going to get it.  I think that if any new law would get passed it should be a law for gun free zones to be policed by armed personel.   I just don't think that these random acts of violence are going to stop. I just get tired of people telling me that we need more gun control.  What we need is more armed responsible citizens period.  Instead the guns will get blamed and all of us will take a hit on it.  We suffer in the long run.

Quoted: He legally obtained his firearm.  Even if he couldn't he would have found a way to get one.  Gun control hurts the responsible citizens.  If someone wants a gun to do harm with it they are going to get it.  I think that if any new law would get passed it should be a law for gun free zones to be policed by armed personel.   I just don't think that these random acts of violence are going to stop. I just get tired of people telling me that we need more gun control.  What we need is more armed responsible citizens period.  Instead the guns will get blamed and all of us will take a hit on it.  We suffer in the long run.

Well actually it appears that he perjured himself on the 4473, I'm fairly certain that's illegal.

The problem isn't guns (duh you knew that) it's wacko nut jobs.  If this guy didn't have a gun he would have built a bomb, or used a chainsaw, or chained the doors shut and set fire to the place.  And the real kicker is, there will ALWAYS be wacko nut jobs out there somewhere.

Quoted: Yes, nice letter. And the question that's been on my mind all week is this: Were any of the murdered, wounded or other students/staff in the engineering building licensed CCW holders who had been prohibited by University edict (not VA state law) from carrying their weapons, therefore prevented from saving lives?

according to an article on msnbc.com yesterday alot of vtech students went to the gun range to shoot their guns do the math. yup that very same one the crazed killer did.

I am a VT student and was in Norris Hall on Monday the 16th. I was on the first floor and in a classroom that he did not visit. We are not allowed to carry on campus and this makes me mad as hell. I have carried on occasion when going to the range with friends after class or something like that.

If I had my gun that day (Sig P239 SAS), and he had come into my classroom, I would have ended it then and there.

I felt really guilty for not doing anything in the days after the attack. But, I have realized that there wasn't any way for me to know how many shooters there were, or if it was police doing the shooting. Going upstairs unarmed would have been a huge mistake.

I don't know if I will ever stop feeling bad for cowering in the corner of a classroom, but if that is all I have to worry about then I am damn lucky.

I lost 9 people on the 16th, A current professor, 2 current Teaching assistants, 5 friends, and student (I am a teaching assistant myself).

It is a shame that more people aren't talking about this. It needs to be discussed at length until every single person understands that the Police are there to investigate crimes and charge individuals under law, not to protect each one of us every second of everyday. That responsibility, in a free society, lies solely with the individual.

I have been asked several times, "why do you need a gun around here (in Blacksburg), nothing ever happens here." I don't know if it is ignorance or just wanting to be taken care of instead of taking responsibility for yourself and your actions.

EDIT: I am a VA CHL holder, and have been for a year now. My name and address were published by the Roanoke times just a few weeks ago. I am not saying that I am the best shot, but I shoot 1-2k rounds a month through my various handguns at the range.

-Bob

Quoted: This is a carry issue because I strongly feel a well trained person carrying concealed such as myself would have saved lives. I go to college and not one of my classes have talked about the massacre at V. tech. I am a sociology major and we look at how society would have some responsibility in socializing someone into doing such acts. Don't get mad thinking I am blaming society, I'm not. This is an act on historical proportions and I wanted people's opinion on the issue and that is why I posted the topic on the date the massacre happened. Is the act so intense people simply don't want to talk about it or they just don't care ad think it would never happe to them?

Well, first of all, what's the subject of a class in question? If it is sociology or the politics of extremism, that's one thing, but if it is marine mammal biology, then it is out of place. The subject of a paid for course should be the subject that is listed for that course.

On 9/11/01, I had marine mammal biology. By the time the class had met, the towers had collasped. The instructor mentioned it and then went on to lecture about whales. It depends on what the subject is in the first place.

Secondly, it is probably very difficult to talk rationally about such a subject since it is so emotionally charged, many people have different opinions, and not all people are trained in firearms or marksmanship. Even when they are trained on such, two people may have vastly different opinions on such. My father was a professional infantry man but believed that civilians had no need for AR-15 type rifles, semi auto SMG's, and so forth. I was talking with my mother the other day of how he would probably had gone thru the ceiling, if he was alive, if he knew what a "gun nut" I had become.

Third, they may believe that it can't happen to them so they don't want to talk about it. After all, how many people does one know who are afraid of guns, won't touch them at all?

Fourth, the different opinions going around on the news channels, which may be more opinion than fact, with different people being influenced, may make it difficult to have a "proper" academic discussion. That is, what one person says on the tv may be no more valid in the academic world than citing someone's blog in a paper ...... but in this emotional subject, telling someone that they can't talk because their source is unverified (or an idiot) may cause more firefights than solve them.

And so forth in the possibilities.

A political science class I didn't take in the last century was the politics of extremism. The prof noted that class was bound to have some heated discussions, people were warned up front about it. Okay, that's alright, but for the cost tuition, to turn a classroom into a shouting match more than once a semester is rather wasteful of the student's money. As a student, I HATE it when the prof wastes my money.
---------------------------------------------------
([A young woman news reporter was interviewing the leader of a Boy Scout troop preparing for a weekend camping trip. She asked, "what activities will the boys have to look forward to this week-end?" The scoutmaster said, "oh, they will have many things to do like fishing, hiking, canoeing, and target shooting." "What," she gasped, "they will have guns?" The scoutmaster responded, "there is no need to worry, they will be well supervised and they have had training in handling firearms."

"That doesn't matter" she replied, "guns are dangerous." He assured her that all precautions would be taken to ensure the boys safety. She still was not satisfied and rebutted, "but you're equipping them to be killers."

The scoutmaster had about ran out of patience and his reply was classic as he said, "lady, you're equipped to be a prostitute but you aren't are you?"], (w,stte), a story found on the net in the recent years)

Quoted: I am a VT student and was in Norris Hall on Monday the 16th. I was on the first floor and in a classroom that he did not visit. We are not allowed to carry on campus and this makes me mad as hell. I have carried on occasion when going to the range with friends after class or something like that. If I had my gun that day (Sig P239 SAS), and he had come into my classroom, I would have ended it then and there........

My condolances for your loss.

I am curious, however; if he had come into your classroom and you did not have your gun, would you have attacked?

This is one of the things that bugs me on a personal level. If someone comes into my classroom, say with student desks, with a gun, I'm trying to gear myself up to charge, maybe kicking one desk into them while picking up another to use in an advancing slash attack. To get close enough to them to take them out, especially since while we know gunshots may be fatal, they may not be instaneously fatal.

.............and we "know" in such situations, that turning tail and running, or not running, can be equally fatal.

Problem is, if for that situation, I am making an instaneously decision, on premeditated attack plans, to put someone seriously out of action. If I'm wrong ...............

I hear it over and over again, "Had I been there with my gun .........,". Okay, to the speaker, you're there, but without your gun. What are you going to do?
---------------------------------------------------------
(Buffy returns dragging Xander, knocked out, by the collar. "My God, what happened?"--Willow
"I hit him."--Buffy
"HOW?"
"With a desk,"--Buffy, nonchalantly, (w,stte), BtVs "The Pack")

Quoted: I am a VT student and was in Norris Hall on Monday the 16th. I was on the first floor and in a classroom that he did not visit. We are not allowed to carry on campus and this makes me mad as hell. I have carried on occasion when going to the range with friends after class or something like that. If I had my gun that day (Sig P239 SAS), and he had come into my classroom, I would have ended it then and there. I felt really guilty for not doing anything in the days after the attack. But, I have realized that there wasn't any way for me to know how many shooters there were, or if it was police doing the shooting. Going upstairs unarmed would have been a huge mistake. I don't know if I will ever stop feeling bad for cowering in the corner of a classroom, but if that is all I have to worry about then I am damn lucky. I lost 9 people on the 16th, A current professor, 2 current Teaching assistants, 5 friends, and student (I am a teaching assistant myself). It is a shame that more people aren't talking about this. It needs to be discussed at length until every single person understands that the Police are there to investigate crimes and charge individuals under law, not to protect each one of us every second of everyday. That responsibility, in a free society, lies solely with the individual. I have been asked several times, "why do you need a gun around here (in Blacksburg), nothing ever happens here." I don't know if it is ignorance or just wanting to be taken care of instead of taking responsibility for yourself and your actions. EDIT: I am a VA CHL holder, and have been for a year now. My name and address were published by the Roanoke times just a few weeks ago. I am not saying that I am the best shot, but I shoot 1-2k rounds a month through my various handguns at the range. -Bob

It is too bad that all the academics and campus police failed to keep you safe. I am sorry you had to endure such a travesty of a failed, flawed system. The worst thing about it is that it will happen again, because no one in charge of universities, government, or any authority has the will to relinquish control over to the people and let them protect themselves the way they have failed too.

You are a credible voice for the right of people to take their safety into their own hands.

I hope that you and everyone else at VT one day heal from this trajedy.

"FACT" Gun Free Zones are perfect Killing Fields for Sociopaths.

Actually they are pretty good killing fields in general for all.  Whether they are perfect for sociopaths or not would be determined in large part by the particular issues of the sociopath involved.  What might be a perfect environment for one would be quite unfavorable for another.  That is one of the problems in trying to discuss something like this before all the facts are in, and why it is probably best, at least in an academic setting, to wait a bit.

VTBOB, do you know anyone else in that building, maybe any of the deceased that might have been CHL/CCW holders, too?

It has been brought up on numerous forums I frequent.


I am truely sorry for your loss.

-Adam

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Navyguns45 VTBOB, do you know anyone else in that building, maybe any of the deceased that might have been CHL/CCW holders, too?

I have been to the range with many of my friends, and several have gotten their permits and or bought a gun because of the exposure they have had.

I have been shooting with 2 of the individuals that were killed on the 16th, one was excited about the prospect of buying a gun after his summer internship (where he would have saved some money), but neither had their CHL.

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Snowleopard My condolances for your loss. I am curious, however; if he had come into your classroom and you did not have your gun, would you have attacked?

I would like to think that I would have picked up a desk and thrown it at him then charged. But, Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy to talk about.

In speaking with friends the next day, I was in awe of how many would have sat or hidden in the corner waiting for him to leave or the police to arrive.

It is my firm belife that had the gunman entered my room I would have done everything in my power to stop him with whatever tools I had aviable to me.

-Bob

I suppose it does have the appearance of Monday morning 1/4backing, "if I had been there".......... but from my standpoint, it's not that. It's more of the line of, "in this situation, what will you do?". Hence, the use of the word "pre meditated".

I suppose it depends on how one is raised, where one comes from. My father taught me that if someone sticks a gun in the small of your back, you can potentially outturn them and strike (talk about a move that will make those andreal glands work overtime). In judo, I was trained to do lightning strikes, don't hesitate, be aggressive and attack. I trained my ship watch teams for three angle, three threat defenses against deception attacks where the team is positioned in angles greater than 90 degrees, the messenger is over by the alarm board, the officer is infront at point blank HtH range, and the armed guard is at an angle which to see him, one has to look over their shoulder. Who to take out first, the person who can trip the klaxons, the person in charge, or the guy with the gun?

It's really not Monday morning but possible situations thought and rethought so if it comes to being used, one doesn't have to think about it all.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
("We have the element of surprise."--soldier
"Oh yes, five unarmed men attacking a brigade of combat infantry. That will really take them by surprise."--2nd soldier, (wtte), "Hogan's Heros")

Quoted: Quoted: I am a VT student and was in Norris Hall on Monday the 16th. I was on the first floor and in a classroom that he did not visit. We are not allowed to carry on campus and this makes me mad as hell. I have carried on occasion when going to the range with friends after class or something like that. If I had my gun that day (Sig P239 SAS), and he had come into my classroom, I would have ended it then and there........ My condolances for your loss. I am curious, however; if he had come into your classroom and you did not have your gun, would you have attacked? This is one of the things that bugs me on a personal level. If someone comes into my classroom, say with student desks, with a gun, I'm trying to gear myself up to charge, maybe kicking one desk into them while picking up another to use in an advancing slash attack. To get close enough to them to take them out, especially since while we know gunshots may be fatal, they may not be instaneously fatal. .............and we "know" in such situations, that turning tail and running, or not running, can be equally fatal. Problem is, if for that situation, I am making an instaneously decision, on premeditated attack plans, to put someone seriously out of action. If I'm wrong ............... I hear it over and over again, "Had I been there with my gun .........,". Okay, to the speaker, you're there, but without your gun. What are you going to do? --------------------------------------------------------- (Buffy returns dragging Xander, knocked out, by the collar. "My God, what happened?"--Willow "I hit him."--Buffy "HOW?" "With a desk,"--Buffy, nonchalantly, (w,stte), BtVs "The Pack")

A guy in my church goes to Va Tech, and he was there that day. Actually heading to Norris Hall when a police officer pulled him into the Library where they locked down. He said a couple of his friends were killed, and he heard from witnesses that one of them did rush the shooter and was shot in the head.

I'm sure more details will surface over the next few weeks. I know hindsight is 20/20,  but there probably really wasn't much those people could do.

You sociology majors should know a little psych - the stages in reacting to grief/stress:

Anger
Denial
Bargaining
Acceptance

Most sheep live in Denial anyway, so this stage tends to be the hardest for them to get through.

Quoted: I am a VT student and was in Norris Hall on Monday the 16th. EDIT: I am a VA CHL holder, and have been for a year now. My name and address were published by the Roanoke times just a few weeks ago. I am not saying that I am the best shot, but I shoot 1-2k rounds a month through my various handguns at the range. -Bob

Bob, you absolutely need to contact the NRA and tell them your story. Suzanna Gratia Hupp was in a similar position during the Luby's massacre in Killeen. Her story was so powerful it was a major factor in Texas getting CHL. Your story could make a difference for all of us. You need to talk with the NRA.

Also you need to contact the VCDL about this.

Quoted: You sociology majors should know a little psych - the stages in reacting to grief/stress: Anger Denial Bargaining Acceptance Most sheep live in Denial anyway, so this stage tends to be the hardest for them to get through.

I agree most Americans are or are becoming sheeple. However, a sociologist would look at socialization institutions such as universities, gov't, media, and families to determine why someone would kill 32 people and at the same time we are socialized in how we deal with such heinous acts. Pscychology is quite different from sociology in that we look at and study society and its institutions and how those effect people. Nature vs. nurture, are you born that way or did you learn certain things as you grew up. I will get off my soap box now.

Quoted: Quoted: You sociology majors should know a little psych - the stages in reacting to grief/stress: Anger Denial Bargaining Acceptance Most sheep live in Denial anyway, so this stage tends to be the hardest for them to get through. I agree most Americans are or are becoming sheeple. However, a sociologist would look at socialization institutions such as universities, gov't, media, and families to determine why someone would kill 32 people and at the same time we are socialized in how we deal with such heinous acts. Pscychology is quite different from sociology in that we look at and study society and its institutions and how those effect people. Nature vs. nurture, are you born that way or did you learn certain things as you grew up. I will get off my soap box now.

Sorry if I drew an inappropriate parallel. I'm not a psych major, I'm a cop - I deal with stress, liars, day to day situations, and training which have given me great lessons in human behavior and a hint of amateur psychology.

Quoted: ......and he heard from witnesses that one of them did rush the shooter and was shot in the head.

It may be suicidal, it may be more boobs than brains, but given the options of escape if possible, attack, cower, practically every fiber screams to attack when escape isn't possible.

Years ago, I use to walk to work around midnight. If attacked, the plan was to pick a point in their lines and go thru it and keep on going. If that hole is there, take it. If there is someone, an opposer, in that hole, take them out ..... but go thru them, don't stop, and keep on going.

If escape is there, take it, of course. But if not ........
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(Looking down on his fallen foe, Kirk. "What a pity. Such a man would have preferred to die in the fight."--enemy, (w,stte), ST:TOS "A Taste of Argameddon")

Quoted: Navyguns45 VTBOB, do you know anyone else in that building, maybe any of the deceased that might have been CHL/CCW holders, too? I have been to the range with many of my friends, and several have gotten their permits and or bought a gun because of the exposure they have had. I have been shooting with 2 of the individuals that were killed on the 16th, one was excited about the prospect of buying a gun after his summer internship (where he would have saved some money), but neither had their CHL. Snowleopard My condolances for your loss. I am curious, however; if he had come into your classroom and you did not have your gun, would you have attacked? I would like to think that I would have picked up a desk and thrown it at him then charged. But, Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy to talk about. In speaking with friends the next day, I was in awe of how many would have sat or hidden in the corner waiting for him to leave or the police to arrive. It is my firm belife that had the gunman entered my room I would have done everything in my power to stop him with whatever tools I had aviable to me. -Bob

Bob - can you email me?  I would like to talk to you about this.  My email is:  [email protected].

Quoted: Quoted: Navyguns45 VTBOB, do you know anyone else in that building, maybe any of the deceased that might have been CHL/CCW holders, too? I have been to the range with many of my friends, and several have gotten their permits and or bought a gun because of the exposure they have had. I have been shooting with 2 of the individuals that were killed on the 16th, one was excited about the prospect of buying a gun after his summer internship (where he would have saved some money), but neither had their CHL. Snowleopard My condolances for your loss. I am curious, however; if he had come into your classroom and you did not have your gun, would you have attacked? I would like to think that I would have picked up a desk and thrown it at him then charged. But, Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy to talk about. In speaking with friends the next day, I was in awe of how many would have sat or hidden in the corner waiting for him to leave or the police to arrive. It is my firm belife that had the gunman entered my room I would have done everything in my power to stop him with whatever tools I had aviable to me. -Bob Bob - can you email me?  I would like to talk to you about this.  My email is:  [email protected].

you may want to im him.

OST