Good job OP.
Nice write up.

I am glad that these issues are not limited to me. I have never had a gear set-up where 1st, 2nd, and 3rd lines fit together well and were comfortable. Heck for the most part I can't even get 1st, and 2nd to fully cooperate half the time. It is good to see someone else trying to work the issues out for themselves instead of buying the gear, setting it up like everyone else and hoping it works.

Raf, the "stack up" you mention isn't bad at all on the X-harness and the X-harness/assault pack combo––both the X-harness and the assault pack have very thin padding and both are fairly wide. It's not bulky at all, and the width of the straps makes for a decent "pocket" to shoulder the rifle in. The Camelbak's straps are actually thicker by themselves than the combo of X-harness and assault pack. I'm perfectly happy with this aspect of the setup.

Now compare that to the thickness of the old LBE suspenders and ALICE pack straps––ugh! That combo has always given me fits; hence the ffort to find something useful to replace it. Not to mention the ALICE pack lacks a sternum strap (unlike the newer MOLLE assault pack), which I've found useful to keep the shoulder straps from spreading into the armpits. It also helps stabilize the pack during rigorous activity.

I never tried the complete MAV/war belt setup sans X-harness, but I may try it (if I can find some time off) just to see if I can get the chest rig a bit higher. That's the one big negative I've found with the X-harness, especially with me being vertically challenged LOL. Again, it's a work in progress, and I'm going to experiment around some as time/money allows.

No brother, you ain't alone. LOL if you want a 1st/2nd line that works well together, get the ALICE gear. Honestly, if carrying a large pack (one that needs a waist belt to work properly) isn't an issue, I think the ALICE is the way to go. The only thing is your carrying both your bare necessities and your fighting load all on one platform. Of course, my MAV/war belt setup works pretty well together until you throw a pack in. Another point: There are many folks out there who try to incorporate their CCW gear into a SHTF setup as their "first line." That's great, until you strap a big pack with a waist belt on. Then you're stuck with a pack waist belt riding over your pistol/mags/flashlight/whatever. That's why my GHB is a relatively small pack (without needing a waist belt). It satisfies my needs, is easy to pack along, and can be used in conjunction with my EDC gear.

I think when selecting gear to work together, it's all about compromise. For me, my major hangup is not carrying water in solid, bulky objects. I've never had a Camelbak fail me, yet I can't seem to get past that fear. That's why I retained Nalgene carriers on this rig, even though they're interfering with both the war belt and the pack. I'm really leaning now towards dropping the Nalgenes (putting them on a pack) and running a Camelbak with the MAV. Not perfect (to my liking) but will integrate better with the "system."

Eli822, I took a couple more shots of the war belt to help you out. let me know if there is any specific pics you need, and I will try to oblige.



Pighelmet, here's two shelves of the war room bookcase, since you asked.

ARJJ,

Thanks for the extra pics. One other quick question...does the Specter gear duty belt have any problems mating up with the velcro of the ATS war belt?

I have been debating the war belt idea in my head for a long time, just haven't gone that route yet.  Until recently I had a Glock 19 in a Tactical Tailor modular holster mounted on an Eagle Universal/SKD rig...for me this was an outstanding setup.  I don't have the Glock 19 anymore and my go to handgun now is a Sig Blackwater Tactical with a light...thus I have been kicking around the idea of a dedicated holster/war belt combination.

The Specter belt mates perfectly with the ATS war belt. It's constructed of double ply nylon webbing, and it's pretty stiff. I had originally contemplated an Eagle duty belt until Charles at Blackstone Tactical told me that the Specter version was a bestseller. I like the extra security of the buckle on the Specter, too.

Just so you know, that everycitizen a soldier guy runs a 3 gun match in South Mississippi if you want to come test out that equipment.

Edit.

my two cents on your gear.

I would lose the bottles on your second line, keep a water bladder in your pack, one that can be pulled out and worn with your second line.  Best of both worlds.  What Raf said about to many straps is very true.  I have went away from my padded chest rig so it would fit under my pack straps comfortably.  But I love the two piece MAV.

I like it

I need to set something like that up for my wife but with more ammo so she can carry it for me

I have thought along that same line and have always carried at least one lexan nalgene in addition to a bladder for backpacking.  I purchased a Nalgene Cantene recently and have been considering carrying it as a back up in lieu of the hard Nalgene.  Thinking in terms of probabilities, what are the odds of having a failure in a bladder followed by a failure in the Cantene?

LOL on your first comment. I keep saying I'm gonna come out to one of those, but I can't ever seem to remember about it. I saw some video some of your guys had at a recent gun show and it looked fun as hell.

I am perfectly happy with the X-Harness––the padding is very low profile––but I will try just the straps. I've been looking at Camelbaks all week trying to decide on a model, so I've pretty much already decided the Nalgene pouches have gotta go. (I use the MULE in the pics for work, so it's covered in sawdust.) One may move to the first line, or maybe not. I've got some time off coming up later this week; maybe I'll get to play around with it some.

I looked up the Cantene––interesting. Although my reasoning behind carrying at least one "hard" bottle/canteen (and my aversion to Camelbaks as a primary hydration source) has been the fear of the Camelbak bladder being cut/punctured/torn. Maybe I am thinking too caveman about this, or maybe my concerns about bladder failure are unfounded.

I see that some of you guys are running a Serpa holster. At least one noted instructor has two of them-that had to be cut open- that he carries around with him to show students. Something got in the mechanism and jammed it. The only way to get the pistol out was to cut it out. Supposedly they have tweaked the design......personally, I won't use one.

Yes I have read at length multiple threads (here and elsewhere) about alleged SERPA failures. I have used two different models on duty, and three different ones as off-duty/CCW rigs, and none of them have let me down. One duty holster survived a hard fall (that injured me pretty badly) without so much as a scratch, and functioned fine during the incident and afterward. I have no problem trusting them on duty or off, and I selected the SERPA after having issues with two different Safariland holsters.

All of that said, I do think that for this rig's intended use, a Safariland model may be a better choice. I'm having some draw binding with the particular one on the war belt, so I'm going to investigate some different options.

Please do not turn this into a SERPA bashing thread.

ARJJ,

While I keep a camelbak on hand (as I stated it can be part of my 1st, 2nd or 3rd lines) I also keep a bottle attached to my ruck.  In a pinch I can attache it to my belt as well.  I definitely feel what your saying about making the lines work together, it's a trial and error thing.

Not my intent. Just discussing a potential pitfall of a piece of "web gear".....It's a user preference thing- like buttpacks. However, I don't know that everyone knows about the potential problem. Blackhawk spends alot of money on advertising.....

ARJJ, just got my TT stuff in!
I went with 2 single mag pouches, 2 triple mag pouches, first aid pouch, multitool pouch, and hydration pouch in the back of the X harness. Duty belt with two handgun mags, dump pouch on one thigh, handgun rig on the other thigh.

What kind of hydro carrier is that?

Load that thing up with mags and water and let us know what it weighs.

Hey JJ, its the "basic 3L hydration" setup from Tactical Taylor.

chondroguy: Is that the china-cheapo belt?  I recognize the mag pouches, I really like mine (in OD)

I'll throw in some pics of all the pieces of my kit working together in various positions.  These represent several years and some of it has evolved, mostly small bits, and the basic concept remains the same.  The most important thing to me is that the hydro carrier can go between my 1st and 3rd line







I can not emphasize enough how important it is to get out shooting, moving, changing positions, reloading, getting thirsty etc in a variety of clothing types/ climactic conditions

taggage.

Currahee, thanks for adding those pics. They should give others an idea of how the "lines" work together.

If anyone else has "action" pics, relevant to the discussion, that they would like to add, please do so.

I've used Serpa's since they came out and I've never had a problem.  My .02

Well, I took some time today and played around with the MAV. The first thing I did was try Raf's suggestion of using the MAV with just the straps (without the X-Harness). The pros were that it was adjustable higher than with the X-Harness, and it would obviously be cooler in the back with just the straps. The big con was it just wasn't as comfortable as with the X-Harness.  After just a few minutes of wearing it, the shoulder straps began to dig into my neck and shoulders. It also didn't feel quite as stable. I'm going to continue to use the X-Harness for now while I research some other options. If anyone knows of a "H" style harness that will work with the MAV (without mods), please let me know. I looked at the ATS padded H harness, but the back straps appear to be non-compatible.

The next thing was I removed the two Nalgene pouches from the MAV. These things are just too bulky where they're at, and I've pretty much decided on using a Camelbak as the primary water source with this rig. The MAV is much more comfortable without the Nalgenes, but it's now pretty front-heavy. I still haven't decided on a mouunted hydro carrier versus a stand-alone unit, but I'm leaning toward the separate Camelbak due to it's greater versatility. I also mounted a GI grenade pouch in place of each Nalgene pouch, just because I had them lying around. I tried putting my dump pouch on the left side, but it was too high up and too far back to reach, so back on the belt it went.

Next I reconfigured the war belt. First, I removed the second multitool pouch (that contained my G2 flashlight). It was too small to work well with the light, so I stuck the light in the utility pouch on the MAV. In its place you can see the small first aid kit, i.e., "boo-boo" kit. The pouch isn't tacticool, but it was free and it works fine. I also went ahead and mounted one of the Nalgenes behind the pistol. This won't be permanent, but it's fine for right now. In the pic, it's tight up against the butt of the pistol, but there is no interference when worn. I may end up just using a GI canteen, or I may find a pouch that will hold a bottle of water. I also removed the small GP pouch I had, as the boo-boo kit replaced it. Finally, I secured the knife sheath a little better using some creativity and a few zip-ties.

Here's a pic of the revised rig:


There's still a few things I'd like to do: First, I want to move the compass (on the front of the belt now) to a more protected, yet easily accessible location. I haven't decided whether to keep the light, compass, and multitool on the belt, or move them to the MAV. If you have opinions on those, let me know. I still need to decide on a Camelbak, and I still have yet to get a more suitable holster and a 3-day pack. I'm also still waiting for the war belt suspenders to get here––they must be on backorder.

Funny you mention that...I was looking at some custom gear from thereisnospoon over at LF, and thought about contacting him.

As for the balance issue, my idea is to buy a stand-alone Camelbak and use Grimlocs (or something else if there is a better idea) to secure the Camelbak's shoulder straps to the X-Harness. That way I can have a quick-detachable hydro carrier that will function as a part of the MAV setup and balance out the ammo in front, yet retain the ability to detach it and use it with a pack or just with the belt.

Thanks for the help!

I'm going to the range tomorrow afternoon, so I'm going to give things a workout and see what will remain and what will get removed/changed.

I should also get some dirt on this stuff.

What range do you go to?

IM Sent.

I read how someone advised you to take your nalagene pouches off your kit and replace them with a camel pak. In my experience I have seen camel pak blatters burst or get holes. I do not trust them, they are handy and user friendly for every day stuff. For this I understand why people carry them but for the long haul, I would advise a water bottle( the odds are they will out last your blatter and then some). The 2nd line should have enough gear to sustain you for a least 24-48hrs depending on how heavy you are willing to go. This concept is not handy for 3 gun competitions so any one shares their experenice based on 3 gun, keep this in mind. Perhaps AR15 would like to start the first 24hr survival/3 gun competition?

I don't completely trust the Camelbak either, so I plan on retaining the Nalgenes/canteens on the third line (pack), and maybe one on the belt.

I also understand where you're coming from regarding having a day or so worth of sustainment on the 2nd line. If conditions warrant such items, a butt pack, larger utility pouches, a small shoulder bag, or any combination of those can easily be added.

As for the 3-gun guy, go to his website. He hasn't geared up for 3-gun; he trains with his EDC/SHTF gear via his local 3-gun. I do think an overnight campout/hike/shooting competititon would be sweet, though!

Well I went to the range today and spent nearly all of it wearing both the chest rig and war belt. Of course both M&Ps shot flawlessly, and the gear performed better than I expected. I spent some time shooting prone, and then went through some simple CQB rifle/pistol drills. Finally, I did some "odd shooting positions," such as prone on side, on my back, etc.

The MAV worked well with the war belt. Even though clearance between the two is tight on my short frame, I encountered no serious interference. Raf and a few others suggested that I ditch the X-Harness and run the MAV with just the straps, in order to get the chest rig riding higher. It turned out that the MAV (with the X-Harness) is riding as high as is practical to facilitate magazine removal––any higher and I'd be hitting myself in the chin upon removing a magazine. Earlier, I had reported that the MAV felt front-heavy after I removed the Nalgenes, but today I found that this proved to be a non-issue––I've never had a load-bearing rig this comfortable.

A few observations on the magazine pouches and reloading: First, the flapped/buckled mag pouches are much slower than I anticipated. The pouches can be left unbuckled (using just the Velcro to secure the flaps), but the webbing on the straps gets in the way of the pull-tabs on the flaps. OTOH, the pouches kept out most of the dirt and grass on the range. Another thing about the OSOE mag pouches is the buckle seems counter-intuitive: The female half is on the flap, with the male half on the pouch body. This made unfastening the buckle slow and clumsy. I'd prefer the buckles be reversed, as this would give your fingers more "purchase" when unbuckling them. The TT shingles were somewhat faster, but tended to collect crud. (There was a lot of dead grass clippings on the range––more on this later.) The bungees on these shingles are very tight, and require a firm "up and over" tug. The slick surface of the D&H mags I was using also made removal tricky, so MagPuls are in order here.

The ATS war belt really surprised me. It carried the full load (pictured above) with no evidence of sagging and zero discomfort on my waist/hips. It's light-years ahead of the old ALICE pistol belt/pad combo I've used in the past. The only shortcoming I found was the Nalgene and pistol on one side caused the belt to shift counterclockwise on my waist. This was especially evident when going back and forth between prone and kneeling. A few pieces of sticky-backed grippy tape or a couple belt keepers in front may solve this. One other, minor issue with the belt: The interior features open-cell padding and some type of wicking fabric. While this is comfy and keeps your waist dry, it's gonna soak up water/sweat really quickly when the heat goes up.

The SERPA holster turned out to work really well while running transition drills. I didn't experience any binding like I had earlier. It may earn a place on the rig, after all. Shockingly, the Nalgene that I mounted behind it didn't flop around, beat me in the ass, or interfere with the MAV. It did make the belt "heavy" on that side, but the belt helped distribute the weight. The Rolly-Polly is just about perfect, but could be moved one row closer to the front. I'm used to dumping empty mags on the ground, so I had a lot of difficulty remembering to retain empties and place them in the dump pouch. This is a training issue that I'll have to work on in coming range sessions. The main thing I'm changing on the belt is the location of the compass pouch. As it sits now (at 11:30 on the belt), it digs into my thigh when kneeling, and I also forsee going prone and breaking my trusty GI lensatic compass. I think it's going to move to the MAV, honestly.

I also shot for a bit with my old Canelbak MULE strapped over the MAV. The pack itself didn't interfere with anything, but the straps just weren't comfortable over the MAV; they wanted to spread apart at the shoulders. I think a dedicated hydro carrier for the MAV is in order, at least until I can find a solution to this problem.

Earlier I mentioned all the grass clippings at the range. At the end of the shooting session, I had them stuck to every exposed Velcro surface, and then some. The fuzzy Velcro patch on my E&E belt pouch, especially, had collected a bunch of it after just a couple drills on my back. This has reinforced my belief in using a buckle (in addition to/in lieu of Velcro) to secure items in pouches. I would think mud would be an even greater enemy of Velcro.

Your thoughts/questions?

You need a set of these for your belt IMO.

EMDOM suspenders

I know! I have had a set of ATS suspenders on order for a couple of weeks now....must be backordered.

First off, kudos to the OP for starting and maintaining a great discussion on some very important considerations in configuring tactical gear to fit your anticipated mission profile, as well as shaking it out for deficiencies and improvements.

Second, my comments are below ...



I would go for lower-profile M4 mag pouches, and ones with open tops.  Further, do you honestly need six magazines on your 2L?  If I were you (based on your stated mission profile) I would cut down the M4 mags on the chest to no more than four, in open-topped, single shingle pouches.  FAST mag carriers come to mind as suitable.

As for dirt/grass ... if you are conducting hard core woodland/jungle patrolling with little fear of sustained firefights, then by all means, go for flapped/buckled mag pouches.  If you think that you need to fight on your feet and change mags, then go with open-topped.



Open-topped or velcro for items needing rapid or frequent access.  Buckles or zippers (no velcro) for items that truly need to be secured, and whose rapid access are not anticipated.

Thanks for bumping my thread Shaken! I didn't want it to go into archives.

I've thought seriously about whether or not I needed six mags on my 2nd line, and I also thought about security versus speed. Hence I have four mags in buckled, flapped pouches and two in shingles. I really need to get out and use it more before I make my mind up, but it's staying as it is for now...it works well enough. Also the way it's configured now seems to be the ideal balance between number of mags, access, and comfort (especially when prone). I haven't decided against just going with some double or triple shingles, though.

My next goal is to get my pack going––I can't find an Eagle A-III MOLLE in coyote anywhere in stock.

EDIT: I just saw SKD had the CB A-III in stock. Ordered and awaiting delivery! I'll be posting even more reviews and pics here when it arrives!

Great thread.

I have to take the time to read it all later. . .

I agree, and it's why I've tried to detail not only WHAT I bought, but WHY I selected it and WHY it will work for me. I've put countless hours into gear selection––looking at gear threads, reading manufacturer websites, reading reviews on multiple forums––and I've tried to pick gear that would work for me and that would mesh the best together.

I should have my pack in this weekend, and I recently found a suitable Camelbak. Stay tuned and I'll try to get plenty more pics up later in the week.

My Eagle MOLLE A-II pack finally arrived (thanks SKD!), and I was able to transfer the stuff from my old ALICE pack into it. The pack is very comfortable, has plenty of pockets and additional fasten points/straps, and will accept a hydration bladder. It is slightly smaller than I expected, however. I am looking at attaching a GP pouch to the back of the pack for additional storage.

I was also able to weigh everything (using my totally unscientific method of placing it on my bathroom scale), fully loaded out with water and ammo. I took the liberty of putting on everything, and man, all of the strapping is quite cumbersome! I noticed, too, that the ATS suspenders I mounted on the warbelt cause the belt to ride up in the back when squatting or "rice paddy prone." This is something I'm gonna have to play with, and I may just remove the suspenders or try a set of the HSGI suspenders with the bungees.

As you will see, I removed the Nalgenes from the MAV. I moved one to the belt, and one to the pack. I may just move the belt-mounted bottle to the other side of the pack, as this would balance both the pack and the belt. It will also cause less interference with the waist belt of the pack––it wants to ride between the war belt and the MAV, which is fine. The E&E kit pouch on the back of the belt may have to go, also, or I may try to find some kind of drop loop for it. I have seen a belt drop E&E pouch from TAG that may work well. Also, the SERPA holster that's on this belt is moving back to my LE duty belt, so a Safariland 6285 or 6365 will take its place.

While I'm waiting for the pics to download, allow me to expand some more on why I went with what I have:

I set out to acquire a modern set of equipment that would get me to my BOL if things get bad enough that I must leave my house. I'm talking more of an end-of-the-world/mass civil unrest situation versus a hurricane, flood, or other more "mundane" SHTF event. It would also sustain me if after such a catastrophic event, I was to patrol the surrounding area. (It is my opinion that in the aftermath of a TEOTWAWKI event, communities and neighbors will band together and will need to have some type of organized security.)

I took great care to select equipment that would work together with the least amount of interference between "lines," and that could be used in multiple combinations depending on the particular need or circumstance. The gear I carry was chosen based upon my fitness level, local climate/weater, local terrain, and personal preference. Obviously, what works best for me may not be what works well for others. This gear is constantly evolving, too, as I've chronicled throughout this thread. I've tried to document changes, modifications, and choices so that newcomers (and the undecided) will have a basic guide of what to have, how to carry it, and how well it works together.

Here are pics of everything I have put together so far, along with weight of each:

1st Line:
ATS War Belt w/ ATS suspenders
"Boo-Boo" kit in cheap belt pouch
Gerber multtool in TT multitool pouch
BH SERPA lvl 3 w/ M&P40
HSGI Nalgene pouch w/ Nalgene
survival kit in TT E&E pouch
Maxpedition Rolly-Polly
Gerber LMF II ASEK
2 M&P mags in TT double pistol mag pouch
GI lensatic compass in TT compass pouch (It's a tight fit.)
weight: 12.0 lbs. (About 4 pounds is water.)


2nd Line:
TT 2-piece MAV with X-Harness & center adapter
2 AR mags (with Magpuls) in TT single shingles
4 AR mags in OSOE CQB double mag pouches
TT V1 vertical pouch with SF G2L, notepad/pens/pencils, and camo paint
OSOE Compact VOK pouch w/ compressed gauze, 2 GI field dressings, 2 pr. nitrile gloves, and med tape
CAT tourniquet mounted on side of VOK
2 GI grenade pouches for misc. items.
weight: 10 lbs.


3rd Line:
Eagle A-II MOLLE assault pack
Nalgene bottle in HSGI Nalgene pouch
GI IFAK in GI pouch
3 MREs
plastic bag w/ 2 pr. socks, 2 T-shirts, and 2 pr. undershorts
toiletry/hygiene kit (blue pouch)
PUR water filter
GI weapons cleaning kit
GI poncho
weight: 16 lbs.

(Not shown is a 3L Camelbak Thermobak––add 6 lbs.)
Combined weight is 44 lbs., or 25.8% of my bodyweight.

As always, your advice, comments, questions, and critique are welcome!

Nothing against thereisnospoon, but I'm a firm believer that you CAN NOT  get higher quality gear than US GRUNT GEAR dot com.  Call Robert up, he'll have you squared away in no time and his prices are usually better, too.  Oh, and ALL his stuff is hand made by him.  :)

If you break those MREs down they'll pack easier.

bump for the weekend folks.

Day hike next Sunday?

It's even a three gun weekend, so you could try out everything in one weekend.