User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/6/2016 11:48:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Most mag loops won't be able to handle the full power of your rig IIRC.
It really depends on who you want to talk to. NVIS or mid range or long range. I tend to like dipoles or end feds. If you are space limited you might look at verticals, since you have power to burn. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 12:10:21 AM EDT
[#3]
The best HF band for any particular scenario is the one that happens to work for the desired contact given the conditions at that particular time.
Sorry to be ambiguous, but... that's the way it is. Sometimes, HF propagation is easy and works the way it should, sometimes it doesn't. In this regard, adaptability and flexibility is key. Ironically, I just posted a thread on this topic right before I posted in this one. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 12:20:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
What antenna, what band (prefer a magnetic loop because of apartment restrictions)? Thanks for any input in advance. As someone that was first licensed while living in an apartment, I'm going to give you some advice. Do not f*ck with apartment antennas until you have some experience under your belt. Apartment antennas are do-able, but - they require a certain amount of experience that you don't have at this very moment! If I had to go back in time and give myself advice, here is what I would do: Operate semi portable. Drive to a park, or a friend or family member's house, or the parking lot at work on a weekend, or wherever you have some room and can comfortably set up some temporary antennas. Take a battery with you or use your vehicle as a power supply. Set up some of the more traditional antennas (temporarily, of course) and make contacts this way. Play with a variety of antennas, learn how they perform. Play with the variety of modes available and find out what you like about HF. Once you've figured some of this stuff out, THEN you can embark on your journey of a home HF setup. Starting brand new and fresh on HF in an apartment is a LOT to bite off. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 12:25:44 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As someone that was first licensed while living in an apartment, I'm going to give you some advice. Do not f*ck with apartment antennas until you have some experience under your belt. Apartment antennas are do-able, but - they require a certain amount of experience that you don't have at this very moment! If I had to go back in time and give myself advice, here is what I would do: Operate semi portable. Drive to a park, or a friend or family member's house, or the parking lot at work on a weekend, or wherever you have some room and can comfortably set up some temporary antennas. Take a battery with you or use your vehicle as a power supply. Set up some of the more traditional antennas (temporarily, of course) and make contacts this way. Play with a variety of antennas, learn how they perform. Play with the variety of modes available and find out what you like about HF. Once you've figured some of this stuff out, THEN you can embark on your journey of a home HF setup. Starting brand new and fresh on HF in an apartment is a LOT to bite off. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What antenna, what band (prefer a magnetic loop because of apartment restrictions)? Thanks for any input in advance. As someone that was first licensed while living in an apartment, I'm going to give you some advice. Do not f*ck with apartment antennas until you have some experience under your belt. Apartment antennas are do-able, but - they require a certain amount of experience that you don't have at this very moment! If I had to go back in time and give myself advice, here is what I would do: Operate semi portable. Drive to a park, or a friend or family member's house, or the parking lot at work on a weekend, or wherever you have some room and can comfortably set up some temporary antennas. Take a battery with you or use your vehicle as a power supply. Set up some of the more traditional antennas (temporarily, of course) and make contacts this way. Play with a variety of antennas, learn how they perform. Play with the variety of modes available and find out what you like about HF. Once you've figured some of this stuff out, THEN you can embark on your journey of a home HF setup. Starting brand new and fresh on HF in an apartment is a LOT to bite off. Yup, great advice. Get to know antennas, understand antenna theory (the basics at least). Go get the ARRL antenna book and get to reading. If you want an easy (buyable) antenna look at the paar end feds. The multibanders only goto 25W IIRC, but you can turn your 857 down to that, you get 40/20/10m, though 10 will be dead, so really 40/20 which should be good for mid range day(20m) night(40m) use and maybe daytime NVIS on 40m. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 12:44:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The best HF band for any particular scenario is the one that happens to work for the desired contact given the conditions at that particular time. Sorry to be ambiguous, but... that's the way it is. Sometimes, HF propagation is easy and works the way it should, sometimes it doesn't. In this regard, adaptability and flexibility is key. This. Who do you want to talk to, at what time of day, what band conditions? Field Day may or may not be a good source of information depending on the crew that's running the field day you attend. You need to get some HF operating experience so you even know what questions to ask... |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 12:50:46 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you are interested in making your own instead of buying I really like my Dewalt Dipole. I have taken it on a few adventures and it hasn't ever let me down. Something like that would be pretty versatile as a basic emergency HF antenna setup, with some minor changes. I'd probably put the spools in the center, which would also allow one tape to be used as a vertical. If the pole is tall enough it could also be used as a vertical for the higher bands. Along with some string, and some precut radials for the vertical. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 12:54:15 AM EDT
[#8]
75/40m NVIS dipole
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 6:45:40 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Field Day may or may not be a good source of information depending on the crew that's running the field day you attend.... This. Field day at my local club is a fuckin' joke. It is the day they take the rigs out of the building and run them on extension cords for the most part. At the meeting before I pissed off one of the muckety-mucks big time. He wanted laptops for logging QSOs which was fine, actually. When I asked about running under actual field conditions he asked me how we would log QSOs. I quietly held up a pencil and he went through the roof. Some clubs take Field Day seriously and really do try and work under field conditions, some don't. Clubs are hit or miss. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 8:04:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't try and use a "convenient antenna", you want big. Ask yourself who you want to talk to. Are you looking to talk state wide? If so 40/80M NVIS. If you are wanting to talk to either cost you are going to need to get a better take of angle and use a higher freq. IMO the best way to quickly get a better take off angle is use a vertical. The best way for NVIS is a low flat dipole. This is the exact reason I like the packtenna. No single antenna will be the best for all scenarios, so you will have to adapt. Buddypole and some of the alpha antennas make that really easy, the problem with them is they are using loading coils and loosing efficiency. The packtenna will handle 100w and can be setup as a V, L, sloper, flat top, center fed, ocfd, and more. If you are interested in making your own instead of buying I really like my Dewalt Dipole. I have taken it on a few adventures and it hasn't ever let me down. 
<a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg</a> However it is all useless unless you practice I never thought about using metal tape measures! Excellent idea, will keep in mind when I someday get my ticket. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 9:04:58 AM EDT
[#11]
I'd recommend dipoles for 40 Meters for short range and 20 Meters for long. 80 will often be noisy from storms and with Solar Cycle #24 (which really sucked as solar cycles go) on the downhill slide, the upper bands are going to be iffy at best for the next 8 or so years. Tp make matters worse, Cycle #25 is predicted to be even worse than #24.
Above all learn CW. It will get through with minimum equipment and low power when all else fails. Besides, it's a heck of a lot of fun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 9:45:20 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
What is the best portable HF antenna Screw the apartment scenario, i.e. magloops and whatnot. If the S is really HTF'ing then get up on the roof or outside and use one or more of the various Yo-Yo-Tenna series, a slingshot, some 2oz weights and a roll of 60lb test fishing line. Maybe some 550 cord, too. The reason that this is the best antenna kit is because it can be set up high or low, depending on whether you want low angle or high angle radiation, is a full size antenna for good efficiency, and can be adjusted in length for any band without requiring a tuner. Or you can use a tuner and not adjust it. And finally it is lighter and easier to pack up, even if you carry one of the more complex ones or a combination of them, than a Buddipole or loop. And what HF band would be the focus during an emergency? Most "emergency" nets, i.e. the ones where hams crawl out of the woodwork in a frantic desire to be helpfu, form on 20 and 40M. Look at any hurricane, earthquake, whatever, that's where they are. 80M will also be useful for shorter range comm's. Plan for those three bands. I am brand new to HF and I am guessing I would be provided this guidance at Field Day. Ahahahahahahaha!  Oh, oh, this actually made laugh out loud until I was in tears!
Field day has almost nothing to do with emergency communications. Very few people actually deploy into the "field", and even fewer of them do it in a way that you can expect to do as an individual under truly SHTF conditions. And, even if you are of the purer faith and set up your SHTF station for field day, band conditions will be an unholy shit-storm of contesters and nothing like what you will find on your average SHTF day. If you really want to practice what it's going to be like, take your SHTF station out to where you would really use it, which is either your bug-in location, most likely your backyard or apartment rooftop, or your bug-out location, and try to make it work just by making random contacts. To possibly simulate what it would be like to make contact with and check into a notional "disaster net", you could also try checking into one of the more ubiquitous nets, like the OMISS net. The best way to ask my question would be to provide a scenario. I am located well within the New Madrid Seismic Zone. Power is out and and all cell sites and local repeaters are offline. I would like to be able to communicate to the outside world, providing assistance where possible. I have setup my folding solar panels, LiFePO4 battery, Yaesu FT-857D Transceiver, and LDG YT-100 Automatic Tuner. What next? What antenna, what band (prefer a magnetic loop because of apartment restrictions)? Thanks for any input in advance. Thank you for choosing a Survivalist's Wet Dream (tm) that is not EMP 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 9:47:15 AM EDT
[#13]
You are not likely going to be able to set up an emergency/portable antenna system for HF at more than
25'-30'. The theoretical half wavelength above the ground is just not likely to happen in the real world. Those heights would be 125' for 75 meters, 65'-70' for 40 meters, and 35' for 20 meters. If you can put a dipole up at 60' for a portable setup, show me how. I want to see it. I'm waiting. 
20 meters will often overshoot your own state and close neighboring states that in an emergency you will need to have contact with. Sure, you can work coast to coast with 20 m, but right where you need it most, just out of your area of emergency, but close enough to reach people/entities that are likely to be able to assist you, 20 meters may let you down. 75 meters will work at night, but almost useless during the day. 75 meters is also often far noisier than 20 or 40 meters. 40 meters is the most likely band to get (1) desired range and (2) work most of the day and well into the evening. So, if you want 40 and 20 meters, let me highly suggest a 67' overall length OCFD. Just two pieces of wire (like a dipole), same overall span as a 40 m dipole, but has 20 m, too. Just as easy to put up as a 40 m dipole, same space requirements. Yes, there are exceptions, and occasionally 75, or 15, or 10 meters might be used, but if I am a depending on communications to work, I'm going to concentrate on 40 and 20 m for this. These two are the bands I will try first. A real world simulated SHTF test. 40 meters gave the best results, solid 2-way comms back to the state capitol. In the middle of that, also on 40 meters, I made a contact with K2V, "Convoy on the Air", ~300 miles. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_22/682944_Statewide_Simulated_Emergency_Test_this_weekend.html If I were to have an antenna for only one band, it would be 40 meters. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 10:09:41 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are not likely going to be able to set up an emergency/portable antenna system for HF at more than 25'-30'. The theoretical half wavelength above the ground is just not likely to happen in the real world. Those heights would be 125' for 75 meters, 65'-70' for 40 meters, and 35' for 20 meters. If you can put a dipole up at 60' for a portable setup, show me how. I want to see it. I'm waiting. If you have the trees, I have the slingshot, fishing line and 550 cord. Easy peasy. If you've got a convenient 6 story building, then make it a sloper. And, if the SHTF and I've got the time and conditions to be playing radio instead of surviving, then I've got the time to put a wire in some trees. No matter the height a dipole is going to be more efficient than an OCFD. A long piece of wire with a tuner will be more efficient than an OCFD. Clearly we are in agreement on 20 and 40M as being required. I'd still suggest that 75/80M is more than just a "nice to have". |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 10:41:31 AM EDT
[#15]
Local club was severely critical of my Packtenna that I took to field day last year. That is until all they had prepared went south overnight. They deployed the Packtenna about 0200 and they we calling me @ 0600 screaming into the phone about how amazing this 'portable' antenna had performed. I have mine in a 20/40 config and will soon add the length for 80m. You've received good info above, just wanted to drop this into the mix to say a well tuned dipole appears to be some good majik!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 11:21:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never thought about using metal tape measures! Excellent idea, will keep in mind when I someday get my ticket. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Don't try and use a "convenient antenna", you want big. Ask yourself who you want to talk to. Are you looking to talk state wide? If so 40/80M NVIS. If you are wanting to talk to either cost you are going to need to get a better take of angle and use a higher freq. IMO the best way to quickly get a better take off angle is use a vertical. The best way for NVIS is a low flat dipole. This is the exact reason I like the packtenna. No single antenna will be the best for all scenarios, so you will have to adapt. Buddypole and some of the alpha antennas make that really easy, the problem with them is they are using loading coils and loosing efficiency. The packtenna will handle 100w and can be setup as a V, L, sloper, flat top, center fed, ocfd, and more. If you are interested in making your own instead of buying I really like my Dewalt Dipole. I have taken it on a few adventures and it hasn't ever let me down. <a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg</a> However it is all useless unless you practice I never thought about using metal tape measures! Excellent idea, will keep in mind when I someday get my ticket. It's brilliant really. You know exactly how long the antenna wires are, because they are clearly marked. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 6:21:46 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's brilliant really. You know exactly how long the antenna wires are, because they are clearly marked. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't try and use a "convenient antenna", you want big. Ask yourself who you want to talk to. Are you looking to talk state wide? If so 40/80M NVIS. If you are wanting to talk to either cost you are going to need to get a better take of angle and use a higher freq. IMO the best way to quickly get a better take off angle is use a vertical. The best way for NVIS is a low flat dipole. This is the exact reason I like the packtenna. No single antenna will be the best for all scenarios, so you will have to adapt. Buddypole and some of the alpha antennas make that really easy, the problem with them is they are using loading coils and loosing efficiency. The packtenna will handle 100w and can be setup as a V, L, sloper, flat top, center fed, ocfd, and more. If you are interested in making your own instead of buying I really like my Dewalt Dipole. I have taken it on a few adventures and it hasn't ever let me down.
<a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg</a> However it is all useless unless you practice I never thought about using metal tape measures! Excellent idea, will keep in mind when I someday get my ticket.
It's brilliant really. You know exactly how long the antenna wires are, because they are clearly marked. Yeah, except it doesn't really work. Electrical length isn't ever the length marked on those, so you will always be wrong. Check it with an antenna analyzer and you will see what I mean. Its just as easy to get a wire dipole up, and then once you have it set, use some tape on the wire and mark the band so the next time you use it its easy to get it up. You can do this for multiple bands. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 6:43:07 PM EDT
[#18]
All I have to say is that I am tremendously impressed by the responses. Thank you! There is such a wealth of knowledge in this forum and I appreciate all the answers you guys provided. The one thing I have learned from reading the response is there is not one magic formula for an antenna and that HF is completely different beast than VHF/UHF.
I was hoping someone would say buy an AlexLoop Magnetic Loop Antenna.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 7:46:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I have to say is that I am tremendously impressed by the responses. Thank you! There is such a wealth of knowledge in this forum and I appreciate all the answers you guys provided. The one thing I have learned from reading the response is there is not one magic formula for an antenna and that HF is completely different beast than VHF/UHF. I was hoping someone would say buy an AlexLoop Magnetic Loop Antenna. Alex loop is limited to like 25w on TX. Generally with HF antennas size matters, so it wouldn't be even in my top 5 antenna choices. All antennas will work, it's just that some will work far better than others depending on the application. If you want a learners antenna system. check out the buddipole, it should be apartment deck deplorable, and it's reasonably efficient. But with any HF antenna I highly recommend getting an antenna analyzer to see wtf your antenna is actually doing vs what you think it's doing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 11:24:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, except it doesn't really work. Electrical length isn't ever the length marked on those, so you will always be wrong. Check it with an antenna analyzer and you will see what I mean. Its just as easy to get a wire dipole up, and then once you have it set, use some tape on the wire and mark the band so the next time you use it its easy to get it up. You can do this for multiple bands. Damn all those QSOs I made must not have been real. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2016 11:59:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't try and use a "convenient antenna", you want big. Ask yourself who you want to talk to. Are you looking to talk state wide? If so 40/80M NVIS. If you are wanting to talk to either cost you are going to need to get a better take of angle and use a higher freq. IMO the best way to quickly get a better take off angle is use a vertical. The best way for NVIS is a low flat dipole. This is the exact reason I like the packtenna. No single antenna will be the best for all scenarios, so you will have to adapt. Buddypole and some of the alpha antennas make that really easy, the problem with them is they are using loading coils and loosing efficiency. The packtenna will handle 100w and can be setup as a V, L, sloper, flat top, center fed, ocfd, and more. If you are interested in making your own instead of buying I really like my Dewalt Dipole. I have taken it on a few adventures and it hasn't ever let me down.
<a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg</a> However it is all useless unless you practice Yoi have my attention... what is thatp push up pole for mast? How tall and how much? How long are the dewalt tape measures? 100W okay? Balun? What feed? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2016 9:32:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn all those QSOs I made must not have been real. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, except it doesn't really work. Electrical length isn't ever the length marked on those, so you will always be wrong. Check it with an antenna analyzer and you will see what I mean. Its just as easy to get a wire dipole up, and then once you have it set, use some tape on the wire and mark the band so the next time you use it its easy to get it up. You can do this for multiple bands. Damn all those QSOs I made must not have been real. Did you check it with an analyzer? Because in my experience antenna lengths are never exactly 468/freq especially if you have extra wire spooled at the end of it. Like I always say, all antennas work, just some work better than others. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2016 10:04:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you check it with an analyzer? Because in my experience antenna lengths are never exactly 468/freq especially if you have extra wire spooled at the end of it. Like I always say, all antennas work, just some work better than others. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, except it doesn't really work. Electrical length isn't ever the length marked on those, so you will always be wrong. Check it with an antenna analyzer and you will see what I mean. Its just as easy to get a wire dipole up, and then once you have it set, use some tape on the wire and mark the band so the next time you use it its easy to get it up. You can do this for multiple bands. Damn all those QSOs I made must not have been real. Did you check it with an analyzer? Because in my experience antenna lengths are never exactly 468/freq especially if you have extra wire spooled at the end of it. Like I always say, all antennas work, just some work better than others. Harlikwin: do you think GCW sets the length per some formula? I wouldn't think so. I bet he sets the length based on test results. In which case it's an easy day to consult a chart of known good configurations and just extend the tapes to those known good lengths. It's a neat contraption, but I would find it a little heavy for portable operations. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2016 10:08:26 AM EDT
[#24]
FWIW, I've always enjoyed this video, which shows how quickly you can set up an antenna with one of those collapsible poles. This video shows a longwire, but it could just as easily be an end-fed (i.e. long wire with a transformer), or a dipole where the coax could be the back-guy.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2016 11:42:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Harlikwin: do you think GCW sets the length per some formula? I wouldn't think so. I bet he sets the length based on test results. In which case it's an easy day to consult a chart of known good configurations and just extend the tapes to those known good lengths. It's a neat contraption, but I would find it a little heavy for portable operations. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, except it doesn't really work. Electrical length isn't ever the length marked on those, so you will always be wrong. Check it with an antenna analyzer and you will see what I mean. Its just as easy to get a wire dipole up, and then once you have it set, use some tape on the wire and mark the band so the next time you use it its easy to get it up. You can do this for multiple bands. Damn all those QSOs I made must not have been real. Did you check it with an analyzer? Because in my experience antenna lengths are never exactly 468/freq especially if you have extra wire spooled at the end of it. Like I always say, all antennas work, just some work better than others. Harlikwin: do you think GCW sets the length per some formula? I wouldn't think so. I bet he sets the length based on test results. In which case it's an easy day to consult a chart of known good configurations and just extend the tapes to those known good lengths. It's a neat contraption, but I would find it a little heavy for portable operations. This is exactly the reason everyone here (including you two who I have learned tons from) gets pissy when people expect HF to work because they bought the gear, got a general license, and watched some youtube. I figure what the length should be based on 468/freq and then think about how I am setting it up. If it is a low band and going to be low I offset one leg a few inches short, if it is an inverted V I make both a little short. Then I go over to my radio and check what the SWR is. If it is 1.4ish or less I just let the tuner deal with it. If it is off I tune up a few kilohertz and check SWR and tune down and check SWR to find out if the antenna is long or short. Once I know that I can adjust from there. I timed myself setting it up for the first time and it was 12min by my self from the time I took it out of the truck to when I was making QSOs. It isn't the perfect antenna by any means. The elements catch a lot of wind and are super noisy. If you get too much tension on them the crank will let loose and it will unspool. However that antenna has worked great and lives in an old ifak pouch taking up no space. For the last few years I have done a lot of operating HF outdoors and in less then ideal areas. I have learned a ton just from trying and failing or succeeding. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2016 12:54:00 PM EDT
[#26]
I'm pretty new, but I've found that 10 and 15 m are pretty dead, 20 and 40 are generally working. If I was going to do one band it would probably be one of those two. I haven't built a 80 m antenna but that's next on my list. I think I'll do a 80, 40, 20 fan dipole, but I think the tape measure dipole kit shows previously looks like the bomb for field set up.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2016 12:59:08 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm pretty new, but I've found that 10 and 15 m are pretty dead, 20 and 40 are generally working. If I was going to do one band it would probably be one of those two. I haven't built a 80 m antenna but that's next on my list. I think I'll do a 80, 40, 20 fan dipole, but I think the tape measure dipole kit shows previously looks like the bomb for field set up. Yo-Yo dipole is just as easy to build and lighter. But yeah, for portable work if you can get any sort of dipole up at reasonable height it will work well for either mid range on 20 or on 40/80 for mid/NVIS. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2016 1:05:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Harlikwin: do you think GCW sets the length per some formula? I wouldn't think so. I bet he sets the length based on test results. In which case it's an easy day to consult a chart of known good configurations and just extend the tapes to those known good lengths. It's a neat contraption, but I would find it a little heavy for portable operations. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, except it doesn't really work. Electrical length isn't ever the length marked on those, so you will always be wrong. Check it with an antenna analyzer and you will see what I mean. Its just as easy to get a wire dipole up, and then once you have it set, use some tape on the wire and mark the band so the next time you use it its easy to get it up. You can do this for multiple bands. Damn all those QSOs I made must not have been real. Did you check it with an analyzer? Because in my experience antenna lengths are never exactly 468/freq especially if you have extra wire spooled at the end of it. Like I always say, all antennas work, just some work better than others. Harlikwin: do you think GCW sets the length per some formula? I wouldn't think so. I bet he sets the length based on test results. In which case it's an easy day to consult a chart of known good configurations and just extend the tapes to those known good lengths. It's a neat contraption, but I would find it a little heavy for portable operations. Actually I have no idea how he specifically does anything since it wasn't detailed in his first post. But the implication from his first post is that the tape measure is easier because its pre-marked and that is somehow brilliant since you just set it to 468/freq. At least thats how I read it and would expect a newbie to read it. I use a very similar setup using a wire+winders and have the band positions marked on the wire that I determined with an analyzer, they were nowhere near 468/freq, since thats where I started them off, but had to use the analyzer to shorten it to where it was resonant. And honestly I usually have to do a bit of fine tuning when I deploy it due to location effects+different deployment heights if I want to be resonant. If I speed/ease of deployment is of paramount importance I just go with the pre-marks and use a tuner to get the last bit of the SWR out of it knowing it will be less efficient. Anyhow its the same antenna but folks need to understand that it isn't just 468/freq, that was my only point. In my experience about 10% short for horizontal dipoles and even shorter ~20% for inverted V setups is about right, but I just do it emprically with the antenna analyzer and don't measure beyond the first time to get the marks on the setup. Center bottom is the dipole setup, it weighs something like 5oz without the coax marked from 6m-40m. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2016 10:05:13 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't try and use a "convenient antenna", you want big. Ask yourself who you want to talk to. Are you looking to talk state wide? If so 40/80M NVIS. If you are wanting to talk to either cost you are going to need to get a better take of angle and use a higher freq. IMO the best way to quickly get a better take off angle is use a vertical. The best way for NVIS is a low flat dipole. This is the exact reason I like the packtenna. No single antenna will be the best for all scenarios, so you will have to adapt. Buddypole and some of the alpha antennas make that really easy, the problem with them is they are using loading coils and loosing efficiency. The packtenna will handle 100w and can be setup as a V, L, sloper, flat top, center fed, ocfd, and more. If you are interested in making your own instead of buying I really like my Dewalt Dipole. I have taken it on a few adventures and it hasn't ever let me down.
<a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-07-10%2020.20.42_zps73a7fgkc.jpg</a> <a href="http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/jnu5/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q610/jnu5/Mobile%20Uploads/20140716_194009_zps5822817e.jpg</a> However it is all useless unless you practice GCW - where did you get that orange piece between the two tape measures? Is it 3D printed? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2016 10:13:05 AM EDT
[#30]
Nope the orange part is a squeegee with the wiper removed bought in the same section as the extension pole
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2016 2:18:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Every antenna is a compromise.
In my area, we're in the desert (either low or high desert, but desert mostly) and extremely tree deprived, so dipoles are hard to do -- and even when you can, they're low dipoles. There's so little population density NVIS really just doesn't get you a whole lot of contacts. As a result of that, something more suited to DX -- namely a vertical -- works a lot better here. I found the buddiestick to be just about perfect, other than the sensitivity in setting up the counterpoise. As far as bands, whatever works, but if the digital net is any guide, 40 and 20 will cover 99% of the time, with 80 that last 1%. There's an 80M coil available for the buddiestick, but honestly I'd just stick with 40/20. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2016 6:05:11 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every antenna is a compromise. In my area, we're in the desert (either low or high desert, but desert mostly) and extremely tree deprived, so dipoles are hard to do -- and even when you can, they're low dipoles. There's so little population density NVIS really just doesn't get you a whole lot of contacts. As a result of that, something more suited to DX -- namely a vertical -- works a lot better here. I found the buddiestick to be just about perfect, other than the sensitivity in setting up the counterpoise. As far as bands, whatever works, but if the digital net is any guide, 40 and 20 will cover 99% of the time, with 80 that last 1%. There's an 80M coil available for the buddiestick, but honestly I'd just stick with 40/20. You also have the disadvantage of low ground conductivity. A low horizontal antenna will not work very well most of the time due to ground loss. If you do try a low dipole for NVIS, put reflector wires on the ground underneath. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2016 7:54:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You also have the disadvantage of low ground conductivity. A low horizontal antenna will not work very well most of the time due to ground loss. If you do try a low dipole for NVIS, put reflector wires on the ground underneath. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Every antenna is a compromise. In my area, we're in the desert (either low or high desert, but desert mostly) and extremely tree deprived, so dipoles are hard to do -- and even when you can, they're low dipoles. There's so little population density NVIS really just doesn't get you a whole lot of contacts. As a result of that, something more suited to DX -- namely a vertical -- works a lot better here. I found the buddiestick to be just about perfect, other than the sensitivity in setting up the counterpoise. As far as bands, whatever works, but if the digital net is any guide, 40 and 20 will cover 99% of the time, with 80 that last 1%. There's an 80M coil available for the buddiestick, but honestly I'd just stick with 40/20. You also have the disadvantage of low ground conductivity. A low horizontal antenna will not work very well most of the time due to ground loss. If you do try a low dipole for NVIS, put reflector wires on the ground underneath. Yup poor ground is a major problem in my AO as well. Though I tend to have better results with wires versus verticals, it all depends on where one sets up. I would say that 40/20 are probably the most important bands to have covered for EMCOMM. With 60/80m being good for evenings if possible. You will also notice that an "enhanced" buddistick is also part of my regular portable antenna kit. Gotta have options. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2016 11:15:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...a Survivalist's Wet Dream (tm) that is not EMP
No kidding. Where I come from we think EMP is one of the lesser concerns about the whole getting nuked experience. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 12:09:22 AM EDT
[#35]
oohh!! I like the dewalt dipole. I'd seen similar designs just never got around to making myself one. Looks like i'm going to home depot tomorrow.
I've got a set of fiberglass poles (16 48" poles with 4" overlap into the next section) so almost 60' of pole. I've got a base to put them in my receiver hitch in the truck, but at that length, it's definitely not a one-man job. In fact I need to take it all to a park and see how high I can get it by myself. I'm not betting on pushing it straight up to be the winning method. I'm thinking a couple of pieces of paracord and a pulley or 2 and maybe I can lay it out and use the tie downs in my truck bed and a couple of climbing pulleys to reduce the force I'd have to put on the line while pulling it up. Anyone have suggestions for raising sectioned fibreglass poles solo? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 12:33:10 AM EDT
[#36]
What's best depends entirely on what you want. To me, portable means easy setup too and an end fed is a good way to go to get that all important "bigness" in an easy up package. But depending on your local operating circumstances you might be running it as a low, horizontal radiating element which won't have an optimum radiation angle for long distance comms. Still it offers a lot of very inexpensive utility. I have run my home assembled version of the EARCHI end fed with success. If you want to be able to more or less consistently cover some distance (i.e. coast to coast and some DX) you will want a vertical - and what I'm saying here is you really want BOTH.
Not all of the portable vertical designs are the same and there are some poor compromises out there and some less bad ones. I very recently purchased an MP-1 Superantenna based on a couple factors. Number one, it breaks down to pieces less than a foot long, making it a perfect fit (and just about the only one) for my air travel friendly attache' based QRP kit. Number two, in the HFPack vertical antenna shootout it was only 0.3 dB down in measured field strength from a quarter wave vertical on 20M. And good performance should be expected, it is essentially a screwdriver antenna and those usually do very well for their size. I only received this kit a couple days ago and I have not yet put it on the air for a real world test, but the design and build quality looks very good. If anything it might be a little bit heavier than I expected but at any given time I'll probably be packing only 1/2 to 2/3 of the total weight of the "loaded" package I purchased, and weight wasn't a big part of my decision in the first place, it would take a lot to bring my usual travel load above normal airline baggage allowances. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 12:57:06 AM EDT
[#37]
I have a Super Antenna MP1 as well. I got the full kit with the 80m coil, titanium whip, clamp mount and tripod.
The tripod is pretty slick. If they were about half what they charge for them, I would buy another tripod and convert a mobile antenna I have into another portable antenna like this. I haven't used mine outdoors yet either. Just seems like every day I have some time, the weather doesn't cooperate, or I have a bunch of household chores to catch up on first. I have a second baby on the way and have been spending most of my free time moving stuff around to make more room in the house. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 9:20:07 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No kidding. Where I come from we think EMP is one of the lesser concerns about the whole getting nuked experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
...a Survivalist's Wet Dream (tm) that is not EMP
No kidding. Where I come from we think EMP is one of the lesser concerns about the whole getting nuked experience. EMP is a great boogyman for the unwashed masses of preppers (sorry guys, you know the types I'm talking about). It sounds threatening and its actually very difficult to understand, and therefore anyone can make wild claims about it that no one other than experts (and I mean real experts) can refute. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 9:20:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
oohh!! I like the dewalt dipole. I'd seen similar designs just never got around to making myself one. Looks like i'm going to home depot tomorrow. I've got a set of fiberglass poles (16 48" poles with 4" overlap into the next section) so almost 60' of pole. I've got a base to put them in my receiver hitch in the truck, but at that length, it's definitely not a one-man job. In fact I need to take it all to a park and see how high I can get it by myself. I'm not betting on pushing it straight up to be the winning method. I'm thinking a couple of pieces of paracord and a pulley or 2 and maybe I can lay it out and use the tie downs in my truck bed and a couple of climbing pulleys to reduce the force I'd have to put on the line while pulling it up. Anyone have suggestions for raising sectioned fibreglass poles solo? Do it on the ground guy it 3 ways then pull it up and guy the 4th wire. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 9:22:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a Super Antenna MP1 as well. I got the full kit with the 80m coil, titanium whip, clamp mount and tripod. The tripod is pretty slick. If they were about half what they charge for them, I would buy another tripod and convert a mobile antenna I have into another portable antenna like this. I haven't used mine outdoors yet either. Just seems like every day I have some time, the weather doesn't cooperate, or I have a bunch of household chores to catch up on first. I have a second baby on the way and have been spending most of my free time moving stuff around to make more room in the house. Yeah, if I wasn't already invested in the Buddipole/stick/yagi setup I have I'd look real hard at the MP-1. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 11:05:30 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone have suggestions for raising sectioned fibreglass poles solo? I use a blue sky mast at work and really like it. I can raise a 100lb payload 50ft in the air by myself. It takes a little while but with 2 guys it is just as fast as throwing it up like an OE but way safer. There shouldn't really be any reason you couldn't do the same with cami net poles. The blue sky uses a locking collar to hold the poles from falling down. With fiberglass poles I would think drilling a hole about a foot from the bottom would work. Your tripod would need to have a little over 4' to the ground so you can slide a pole in from the bottom. http://blueskymast.com |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 11:27:28 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do it on the ground guy it 3 ways then pull it up and guy the 4th wire. Whew! Glad you posted that. I'm sure I'd have missed this when I tested it in the field. I was thinking it through last night and never did I consider a guy line to keep it from falling over towards my truck after I pulled it up. With a little bit of math I can even pre-set the length to what it should be (about) for the far line. I've already rigged a collar out of a turks head for the top of one of the sections I'll put in the middle to guy the mast. My plan for the top was a carabiner I've got that just fits over the top of the narrowed section, but won't slide down the pole. I've got a pulley on that carabiner already and I'll go buy some 6mm cord to raise the mast. I don't trust paracord. The forces on it while the mast is close to the ground are going to be pretty high. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 11:29:08 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use a blue sky mast at work and really like it. I can raise a 100lb payload 50ft in the air by myself. It takes a little while but with 2 guys it is just as fast as throwing it up like an OE but way safer. There shouldn't really be any reason you couldn't do the same with cami net poles. The blue sky uses a locking collar to hold the poles from falling down. With fiberglass poles I would think drilling a hole about a foot from the bottom would work. Your tripod would need to have a little over 4' to the ground so you can slide a pole in from the bottom. http://blueskymast.com I like that idea too. It's more complex to build, so I'll try it if the other method fails. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 12:14:37 PM EDT
[#44]
There is some great advice on ultra-lightweight mast poles in this article: http://seeksolitude.com/?p=166
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 12:59:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 75/40m NVIS dipole Almost vertical radiation, great for close in comms, zero to a couple hundred miles, particularly effective on 75 or 40 meters. Always better at night. . A loop has Fairly high impedence at feedpoint, as compared to Dipole, or Coax... use ladder line, a BALUN or a tuned (1/4 wave) chunk of 75 ohm coax for an impedance matching transformer, may take some experimental cutting, velocity factor may not be exactly as stated for given piece of cable. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 4:47:59 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HF is completely different beast than VHF/UHF. In practical application, yes. This is why some of us constantly preach that there is no substitute for on-air experience. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 8:02:09 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In practical application, yes. This is why some of us constantly preach that there is no substitute for on-air experience. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
HF is completely different beast than VHF/UHF. In practical application, yes. This is why some of us constantly preach that there is no substitute for on-air experience. And more than than on the air experience, if you plan on operating portable, you really need experience getting the antennas setup and taken down. You need to play with analyzers and figure out what actually works well and so forth. You need a solid grounding in antenna theory. I always advise prep type folks, don't just get on the air and spin the dial, thats easy. Have a goal in mind, i.e. I will work state X today, then you have to get a plan to do that, you gotta know what band(s) will likely work and so forth. Even better is to make a scheduled contact with a specific person in a specific location but that can be sometimes hard to arrange. But doing these things will really let you know your proficiency with your antenna setup, and antenna theory, plus if your gear can actually make that contact, is 5W enough, you'll know pretty quick if it is. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 8:41:20 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Have a goal in mind, i.e. I will work state X today This is why I have always ignored the "it is an awesome _____ I worked _____ DX with it". |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 8:52:26 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is why I have always ignored the "it is an awesome _____ I worked _____ DX with it". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:Have a goal in mind, i.e. I will work state X today This is why I have always ignored the "it is an awesome _____ I worked _____ DX with it". Yup, for alot of guys its totally just pure luck, I hate the term appliance operator but its increasingly apparent to me thats what a great many hams are in the US these days (and I'm not an old ham). <Disclaimer 1: I'm doing my level best not sound like an arrogant ass, but I probably do> <Disclaimer 2: There are alot of people that know way more about antennas than I do> Its an ugly reality that many HAMs I've talked to have no clue about what the lobes or take off angles might be on their antenna or antenna theory in general, they just buy the WhackKomm8000 and throw it up "as high as itl go" and its a great antenna cuz I did some DX with it. In real life its of course very difficult to know exactly what your antenna is doing, especially portable setups, but IMO hams should know enough to be able to point their OFCD or endfed in the direction they want the signal to go in. And its personal pet peeve of mine when people start talking about NVIS without any clue how to properly erect an effective NVIS antenna. When I ask "preppers" what the ideal deployment height for an NVIS dipole is on 40m and all I get is blank stare and "Low to the ground (like 5ft)" as the answer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2016 10:05:58 PM EDT
[#50]
Test test test. That is what I plan on doing with this guy
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
