The Infamous North Hollywood shootout. - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Infamous North Hollywood shootout. (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:03:22 PM EDT

[#1]

Found a couple pics.

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:05:28 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:

What's amazing is these guys were caught way before, spent 6 months in jail, got out and petitioned the court and got there weapons back.

My question is did the police just go into the gun store and request the weapons and it was that simple? LE or not shouldn't it be same procedure as a civilian?

I'm sure the owners of the store exercised common sense considering the shooting that was going on. LE are civilians.

Pulled this from another site.

The actions of the B & B management in actually "loaning" out the
AR-15 rifles was held to account by the BATF and was considered improper
paperwork and was one of the reasons they went out of business.
No good deed goes unpunished.
Sorry officer, 14 day wait just like the rest of us............
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=158333&page=2

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:09:01 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:09:54 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:

What's amazing is these guys were caught way before, spent 6 months in jail, got out and petitioned the court and got there weapons back.

My question is did the police just go into the gun store and request the weapons and it was that simple? LE or not shouldn't it be same procedure as a civilian?

I'm sure the owners of the store exercised common sense considering the shooting that was going on. LE are civilians.

Pulled this from another site.

The actions of the B & B management in actually "loaning" out the AR-15 rifles was held to account by the BATF and was considered improper paperwork and was one of the reasons they went out of business.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Sorry officer, 14 day wait just like the rest of us............

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=158333&page=2

I'd like to see a credible link to substantiate the BATF comment. The more likely reason is that they mismanaged there business and had to file for bankruptcy.

In 1993, relations between its founders, brothers Bob and Barry
Kahn, soured. This led to litigation between the two over control of the
company in 1994, eventually leading to a settlement in 1997 that left
the business in the hands of Bob Kahn and his wife, Kathleen. It also
racked up $1.75 million in legal and accounting fees, the first cited
cause of the bankruptcy.

According to the filing, at this time, Barry Kahn engaged in
illegal activities that would have endangered B&B's licenses
and which later got him locked up in federal prison. The filing further
alleges that he bought substantial inventory against Bob Kahn's
wishes, which then had to be liquidated at a loss for $425,000. Bad
investments followed, and all the while the company found itself with
increasing legal headaches

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:10:45 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
That was the shootout from the movie Heat, right?

It was inspired by the movie HEAT.

What gun did Al Pacino use in that film?

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:11:02 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:

What's amazing is these guys were caught way before, spent 6 months in jail, got out and petitioned the court and got there weapons back.

My question is did the police just go into the gun store and request the weapons and it was that simple? LE or not shouldn't it be same procedure as a civilian?

I'm sure the owners of the store exercised common sense considering the shooting that was going on. LE are civilians.

Pulled this from another site.

The actions of the B & B management in actually "loaning" out the AR-15 rifles was held to account by the BATF and was considered improper paperwork and was one of the reasons they went out of business.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Sorry officer, 14 day wait just like the rest of us............

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=158333&page=2

I'd like to see a credible link to substantiate the BATF comment. The more likely reason is that they mismanaged there business and had to file for bankruptcy.

In 1993, relations between its founders, brothers Bob and BarryKahn, soured. This led to litigation between the two over control of thecompany in 1994, eventually leading to a settlement in 1997 that leftthe business in the hands of Bob Kahn and his wife, Kathleen. It alsoracked up $1.75 million in legal and accounting fees, the first citedcause of the bankruptcy.

According to the filing, at this time, Barry Kahn engaged inillegal activities that would have endangered B&B's licensesand which later got him locked up in federal prison. The filing furtheralleges that he bought substantial inventory against Bob Kahn'swishes, which then had to be liquidated at a loss for $425,000. Badinvestments followed, and all the while the company found itself withincreasing legal headaches

I'm curious too man. I've heard everything from the BATF made a example out of them to they got a slap on the wrist.

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:11:58 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:22:03 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:42:46 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

No they weren't.

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:52:39 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

And fast forward a few years and every cop in the US needs an AR.

4073

Yeah, for such a relatively bloodless incident it sure got turned into a political football for up arming law enforcement agencies across the country. How many incidents like that have happened since then? But yet now every local PD has to have an APC and the latest tactical gear

Posted: 9/10/2011 9:55:30 PM EDT

[#11]

Were the robbers wanting to kill anyone?

Compare these two experienced guys to the guy from Virginia Tech. Does not compute...

Posted: 9/10/2011 10:31:19 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What's amazing is these guys were caught way before, spent 6 months in jail, got out and petitioned the court and got there weapons back.
My question is did the police just go into the gun store and request the weapons and it was that simple? LE or not shouldn't it be same procedure as a civilian?

I'm sure the owners of the store exercised common sense considering the shooting that was going on. LE are civilians.

"Under certain circumstances they" are not.

Posted: 9/10/2011 10:34:02 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

And fast forward a few years and every cop in the US needs an AR.

4073

Yeah, for such a relatively bloodless incident it sure got turned into a political football for up arming law enforcement agencies across the country. How many incidents like that have happened since then? But yet now every local PD has to have an APC and the latest tactical gear

Do you have a problem with cops having assault rifles? It doesn't take two guys with AKs going nuts in the street to need an AR in your patrol car. It makes sense to me that when going into any kind of gunfight you'd want to out gun who ever you're going up against. Thats why I keep a 12ga next to the bed for bump in the night duty. It's an extremely violent weapon that will hopefully out gun the crack head breaking into my house. Why not give a cop some thing that might make a dangerous a little safer. 9 out of 10 times he won't need it but I'd rather him have it for that one time.

Posted: 9/10/2011 10:36:59 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Were the robbers wanting to kill anyone?

Compare these two experienced guys to the guy from Virginia Tech. Does not compute...

Really. That was strange. I am sure they were bad people, but it does seems strange.

Posted: 9/10/2011 10:51:57 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

Really?

I am by no means an apologist for LEOs but your posts on this have got to be one of the stupidest things I've read. There was NO question that POS was a criminal, committing crimes; to include robbery, attempted murder, assault, and probably at least a half dozen other misdemeanors and felonies. Why in the fuck would I want my tax dollars being spent to treat him, put him jail, put him on trial, and then put him in prison for 30+ years? I don't think the cops let him die, but even if they did, I'd like to shake their hands and thank them for serving justice and saving at least a million in tax dollars.

In cases like this I wish summary executions were legal. It's like a high speed chase. There is no question the driver is a criminal, committing multiple crimes and endangering hundreds if not thousands of people. Once he stops or is stopped and gets out of the car the cops should empty their fucking magazines into his body.

Posted: 9/10/2011 10:59:07 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

Really?

I am by no means an apologist for LEOs but your posts on this have got to be one of the stupidest things I've read. There was NO question that POS was a criminal, committing crimes; to include robbery, attempted murder, assault, and probably at least a half dozen other misdemeanors and felonies. Why in the fuck would I want my tax dollars being spent to treat him, put him jail, put him on trial, and then put him in prison for 30+ years? I don't think the cops let him die, but even if they did, I'd like to shake their hands and thank them for serving justice and saving at least a million in tax dollars.

In cases like this I wish summary executions were legal. It's like a high speed chase. There is no question the driver is a criminal, committing multiple crimes and endangering hundreds if not thousands of people. Once he stops or is stopped and gets out of the car the cops should empty their fucking magazines into his body.

Because we all like to pretend we live in a civilized society, where the rule of law is the highest means of order in the land. Western Civilization is built upon the premise that no one has the right to arbitrarily kill another person, regardless of their crimes, without the due process of the law. Emotions are irrelevant. Crimes are irrelevant. If you sever this fundamental linchpin of the justice system, everyone else must fall as well.

Deliberately withholding life-saving medical assistance from someone bleeding out on the ground is legally indistinguishable from walking up and putting a round through their skull. You can't do it without committing a crime yourself.

Posted: 9/10/2011 10:59:36 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

Really?

I am by no means an apologist for LEOs but your posts on this have got to be one of the stupidest things I've read. There was NO question that POS was a criminal, committing crimes; to include robbery, attempted murder, assault, and probably at least a half dozen other misdemeanors and felonies. Why in the fuck would I want my tax dollars being spent to treat him, put him jail, put him on trial, and then put him in prison for 30+ years? I don't think the cops let him die, but even if they did, I'd like to shake their hands and thank them for serving justice and saving at least a million in tax dollars.

In cases like this I wish summary executions were legal. It's like a high speed chase. There is no question the driver is a criminal, committing multiple crimes and endangering hundreds if not thousands of people. Once he stops or is stopped and gets out of the car the cops should empty their fucking magazines into his body.

That's a dangerous path.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:01:20 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Were the robbers wanting to kill anyone?

Compare these two experienced guys to the guy from Virginia Tech. Does not compute...

Really. That was strange. I am sure they were bad people, but it does seems strange.

It was my understanding that they were trying to shoot and scoot.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:06:02 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

And fast forward a few years and every cop in the US needs an AR.

4073

Yeah, for such a relatively bloodless incident it sure got turned into a political football for up arming law enforcement agencies across the country. How many incidents like that have happened since then? But yet now every local PD has to have an APC and the latest tactical gear

Do you have a problem with cops having assault rifles? It doesn't take two guys with AKs going nuts in the street to need an AR in your patrol car. It makes sense to me that when going into any kind of gunfight you'd want to out gun who ever you're going up against. Thats why I keep a 12ga next to the bed for bump in the night duty. It's an extremely violent weapon that will hopefully out gun the crack head breaking into my house. Why not give a cop some thing that might make a dangerous a little safer. 9 out of 10 times he won't need it but I'd rather him have it for that one time.

Yes, I have a problem with it, in certain situations. If a "civilian" cannot have one in the same situation, then LEOs certainly have far less need for such. If I am in my car and in Illinois, I am on my own and have a critical need for protection. Yet, I am allowed no reasonable protection/defense. For LEOs, there is a need, but it is less since they can whisper into a mic and have tons of their friends break their necks to get there most ricky tick. Plus, they can always fall back, call for backup, or call for SWAT. IF I go to into Illinois, (God forbid), the law says I better have access to nothing more than condoms and Vaseline. No one is going to rush to my aid. In my view, LEOs need nothing more than I do, and probably less. If I am in an encounter, from my end, it will certainly be unplanned and alone. While LEO’s work may sometimes require them to encounter dangerous people, it is less likely to be unplanned and does not have to be alone. Plus, IF they were taken by surprise, their survivability would be no worse than a non-LEO.

A LEO can always quit if they decide it is just too dangerous. A non LEO cannot just stop living their life, going shopping for food, paying bills, and traveling to and from work.

Many LEOs are serious bad asses, just as their ex-military counterparts are who did not go into law enforcement, yet may not be allowed to take reasonable precautions in protection and self defense.

In reality, I think LEOs should be able to up arm/armor themselves, at their own cost, to the same extent as anyone else. Maybe they don’t “need” it as much as the average non-LEO person. But, they have a life and families, and bleed like anyone else. So, they have the right to self protection/defense as much as anyone else. The problem is that some people do not understand that non-LEOs have as much (natural) right and greater need.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:07:55 PM EDT

[#20]

3 years later we had the "assault weapon" ban take effect here in CA, thanks in large part to those assholes. I hope they're rotting in hell.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:12:32 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
3 years later we had the "assault weapon" ban take effect here in CA, thanks in large part to those assholes. I hope they're rotting in hell.

Did that ban apply to LEOs too or was it just to make non-LEOs more helpless?

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:15:06 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

3 years later we had the "assault weapon" ban take effect here in CA, thanks in large part to those assholes. I hope they're rotting in hell.

Did that ban apply to LEOs too or was it just to make non-LEOs more helpless?

This.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:21:07 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

Really?

I am by no means an apologist for LEOs but your posts on this have got to be one of the stupidest things I've read. There was NO question that POS was a criminal, committing crimes; to include robbery, attempted murder, assault, and probably at least a half dozen other misdemeanors and felonies. Why in the fuck would I want my tax dollars being spent to treat him, put him jail, put him on trial, and then put him in prison for 30+ years? I don't think the cops let him die, but even if they did, I'd like to shake their hands and thank them for serving justice and saving at least a million in tax dollars.

In cases like this I wish summary executions were legal. It's like a high speed chase. There is no question the driver is a criminal, committing multiple crimes and endangering hundreds if not thousands of people. Once he stops or is stopped and gets out of the car the cops should empty their fucking magazines into his body.

Because we all like to pretend we live in a civilized society, where the rule of law is the highest means of order in the land. Western Civilization is built upon the premise that no one has the right to arbitrarily kill another person, regardless of their crimes, without the due process of the law. Emotions are irrelevant. Crimes are irrelevant. If you sever this fundamental linchpin of the justice system, everyone else must fall as well.

Deliberately withholding life-saving medical assistance from someone bleeding out on the ground is legally indistinguishable from walking up and putting a round through their skull. You can't do it without committing a crime yourself.

For the most part I see it the same way believe it or not. However, there are times when guilt is known and unquestionable (such as was in this case) and I could do without the charade of a trial and prison time. Fuck those assholes.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:29:40 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

Really?

I am by no means an apologist for LEOs but your posts on this have got to be one of the stupidest things I've read. There was NO question that POS was a criminal, committing crimes; to include robbery, attempted murder, assault, and probably at least a half dozen other misdemeanors and felonies. Why in the fuck would I want my tax dollars being spent to treat him, put him jail, put him on trial, and then put him in prison for 30+ years? I don't think the cops let him die, but even if they did, I'd like to shake their hands and thank them for serving justice and saving at least a million in tax dollars.

In cases like this I wish summary executions were legal. It's like a high speed chase. There is no question the driver is a criminal, committing multiple crimes and endangering hundreds if not thousands of people. Once he stops or is stopped and gets out of the car the cops should empty their fucking magazines into his body.

link, NSW graphic.: These guys gave aid to the enemy they just shot at in a combat zone, why shouldnt the the police do the same?

I bet it cost at least a million to treat those guys to.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:31:30 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm pretty sure anyone with real training and a rifle could stop these guys quickly and effectively.

It still amazes me no one tried a head shot. It seems like standard SOP is chest area but when it's pretty obvious they have body armor?

Orders were issued by SGT and repeated by dispatch to "aim for the head."
Everyone was trying, they just couldnt do it.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:33:38 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

Wrong.
Guys were going through yards and chasing tips of a third perp. scene was not considered secure.

Posted: 9/10/2011 11:54:32 PM EDT

[#27]

and here is what we learned ...........

1. the bad guys are the only fatalities. they might as well have been bump firing
2. Any cops with a $79 Mosin could have killed the bad guys. I wonder if any cops considered getting a hunting rifle off the used rack and ending this mess
3. 1 bad guy did lay in the street for an hour with no medical care . I am not real upset he made some bad life choices . like pissing off people who call ambulances
4. This shoot out only gets a lot of discussion due to TV cameras being present
5. It is easy to armchair commando when the rounds are not coming at you

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:10:13 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:

And fast forward a few years and every cop in the US needs an AR.

4073

Yeah, for such a relatively bloodless incident it sure got turned into a political football for up arming law enforcement agencies across the country. How many incidents like that have happened since then? But yet now every local PD has to have an APC and the latest tactical gear

Do you have a problem with cops having assault rifles? It doesn't take two guys with AKs going nuts in the street to need an AR in your patrol car. It makes sense to me that when going into any kind of gunfight you'd want to out gun who ever you're going up against. Thats why I keep a 12ga next to the bed for bump in the night duty. It's an extremely violent weapon that will hopefully out gun the crack head breaking into my house. Why not give a cop some thing that might make a dangerous a little safer. 9 out of 10 times he won't need it but I'd rather him have it for that one time.

Yes, I have a problem with it, in certain situations. If a "civilian" cannot have one in the same situation, then LEOs certainly have far less need for such. If I am in my car and in Illinois, I am on my own and have a critical need for protection. Yet, I am allowed no reasonable protection/defense. For LEOs, there is a need, but it is less since they can whisper into a mic and have tons of their friends break their necks to get there most ricky tick. Plus, they can always fall back, call for backup, or call for SWAT. IF I go to into Illinois, (God forbid), the law says I better have access to nothing more than condoms and Vaseline. No one is going to rush to my aid. In my view, LEOs need nothing more than I do, and probably less. If I am in an encounter, from my end, it will certainly be unplanned and alone. While LEO’s work may sometimes require them to encounter dangerous people, it is less likely to be unplanned and does not have to be alone. Plus, IF they were taken by surprise, their survivability would be no worse than a non-LEO.

A LEO can always quit if they decide it is just too dangerous. A non LEO cannot just stop living their life, going shopping for food, paying bills, and traveling to and from work.

Many LEOs are serious bad asses, just as their ex-military counterparts are who did not go into law enforcement, yet may not be allowed to take reasonable precautions in protection and self defense.

In reality, I think LEOs should be able to up arm/armor themselves, at their own cost, to the same extent as anyone else. Maybe they don’t “need” it as much as the average non-LEO person. But, they have a life and families, and bleed like anyone else. So, they have the right to self protection/defense as much as anyone else. The problem is that some people do not understand that non-LEOs have as much (natural) right and greater need.

U mad?

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:30:56 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What's amazing is these guys were caught way before, spent 6 months in jail, got out and petitioned the court and got there weapons back.
My question is did the police just go into the gun store and request the weapons and it was that simple? LE or not shouldn't it be same procedure as a civilian?

I'm sure the owners of the store exercised common sense considering the shooting that was going on. LE are civilians.

Pulled this from another site.

The actions of the B & B management in actually "loaning" out the AR-15 rifles was held to account by the BATF and was considered improper paperwork and was one of the reasons they went out of business.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Sorry officer, 14 day wait just like the rest of us............

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=158333&page=2

I'd like to see a credible link to substantiate the BATF comment. The more likely reason is that they mismanaged there business and had to file for bankruptcy.

In 1993, relations between its founders, brothers Bob and BarryKahn, soured. This led to litigation between the two over control of thecompany in 1994, eventually leading to a settlement in 1997 that leftthe business in the hands of Bob Kahn and his wife, Kathleen. It alsoracked up $1.75 million in legal and accounting fees, the first citedcause of the bankruptcy.

According to the filing, at this time, Barry Kahn engaged inillegal activities that would have endangered B&B's licensesand which later got him locked up in federal prison. The filing furtheralleges that he bought substantial inventory against Bob Kahn'swishes, which then had to be liquidated at a loss for $425,000. Badinvestments followed, and all the while the company found itself withincreasing legal headaches

I'm curious too man. I've heard everything from the BATF made a example out of them to they got a slap on the wrist.

Easier to tell your friends the gubmint fucked you over than say you got in a purse swinging contest with your brother that cost almost $2M by the time you put down your purse.

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:34:19 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Were the robbers wanting to kill anyone?

Compare these two experienced guys to the guy from Virginia Tech. Does not compute...

Injured 18 people, while on drugs.

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:44:52 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

Wrong.

Guys were going through yards and chasing tips of a third perp. scene was not considered secure.

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:48:15 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Undergunned, poorly led and disorganized, the Cops still stood their ground, and won.

Well they had massive numbers superiority.

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:49:17 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Undergunned, poorly led and disorganized, the Cops still stood their ground, and won.

And yet the gun store that supplied the cops got the royal fuck over later.

This is a Cop bashing thread? Clever disguise. You fooled me. I'll see my way out.

No it isn't. From my understanding it wasn't the police that did it was California's leadership that did? Or am I wrong?

ATF I thought ? Gun shop regulation is mostly a federal thing.

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:52:51 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

No they weren't.

Not murder. It would be some type of manslaughter at worst. Thats at worst, I don't think they are even guilty of that here, but I'll admit I haven't really looked into it.

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:55:38 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

And fast forward a few years and every cop in the US needs an AR.

4073

Yeah, for such a relatively bloodless incident it sure got turned into a political football for up arming law enforcement agencies across the country. How many incidents like that have happened since then? But yet now every local PD has to have an APC and the latest tactical gear

Do you have a problem with cops having assault rifles? It doesn't take two guys with AKs going nuts in the street to need an AR in your patrol car. It makes sense to me that when going into any kind of gunfight you'd want to out gun who ever you're going up against. Thats why I keep a 12ga next to the bed for bump in the night duty. It's an extremely violent weapon that will hopefully out gun the crack head breaking into my house. Why not give a cop some thing that might make a dangerous a little safer. 9 out of 10 times he won't need it but I'd rather him have it for that one time.

I have zero problem with cops having AR's but I don't think the taxpayers should foot the bill for every cop to have an AR. Let the taxpayers pay for the SWAT teams AR's and maybe a few to be dispersed at random among a few of the cops, if the rest want them they can pay for them.

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:57:36 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm pretty sure anyone with real training and a rifle could stop these guys quickly and effectively.

Anyone from this website could have stopped it. !!!!!

Posted: 9/11/2011 1:58:18 AM EDT

[#37]

Legitimate topic to cop bash thread in one page. Amazing....

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:01:09 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

When the scene isn't secure. Like say if there are concerns that there is another shooter.

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:09:03 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm pretty sure anyone with real training and a rifle could stop these guys quickly and effectively.

It still amazes me no one tried a head shot. It seems like standard SOP is chest area but when it's pretty obvious they have body armor?

They never aimed for the head? Or maybe none of them have the ability to shoot a 100+yd. headshot under stress.

On a side note, the head is smaller than the pelvic girdle or legs.

Yeah you do have a point. I don't admire those assholes but I gotta admit they knew what they were doing........At least up until the stovepipe jam.

On the AK47...Yes it was a AR15 that ended the fight..Smoke that AK fan boys!

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:11:41 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

No they weren't.

Not murder. It would be some type of manslaughter at worst. Thats at worst, I don't think they are even guilty of that here, but I'll admit I haven't really looked into it.

Nope. Not that either.

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:16:23 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

For claiming that they let him bleed out, but later dropped the suit.

The suit could've had legs, LAPD said they had reports of another shooter so they did not let in medics.

I remember seeing a pic of a cop standing feet away from this handcuffed guy with an ambulance in the back ground yards away. They stood there and watched the guy bleed to death. The guy was a POS but if they will do it to him they will do it to you.

Yes I agree if they will do that to the guy who robbed a bank a fire a few hundred rounds at cops they will do it to me if I fire a few hundred rounds at them.. This is one of many reasons I don't shoot at the cops!

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:19:17 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm pretty sure anyone with real training and a rifle could stop these guys quickly and effectively.

It still amazes me no one tried a head shot. It seems like standard SOP is chest area but when it's pretty obvious they have body armor?

They never aimed for the head? Or maybe none of them have the ability to shoot a 100+yd. headshot under stress.

On a side note, the head is smaller than the pelvic girdle or legs.

Yeah you do have a point. I don't admire those assholes but I gotta admit they knew what they were doing........At least up until the stovepipe jam.

On the AK47...Yes it was a AR15 that ended the fight..Smoke that AK fan boys!

Give me a break

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:20:28 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

Under certain circumstances they do.

K, Ill bite. When?

Most often when there is an active shooter and the area hasn't been cleared for medics. I would suspect that in a shootout, the Victim, Officer, and any other innocent will get treatment first and then the crook.

This wasn't the case. Police were standing around looking at the guy lying handcuffed on the ground. They weren't taking cover looking for more shooters they were committing murder by holding the medics back.

No they weren't.

Not murder. It would be some type of manslaughter at worst. Thats at worst, I don't think they are even guilty of that here, but I'll admit I haven't really looked into it.

Nope. Not that either.

I would agree which is why I stated I don't think they are guilty. Just bugs me the way people don't know the law. Murder generally requires intent/deliberate act and avoiding aid doesn't fit.

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:24:44 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm pretty sure anyone with real training and a rifle could stop these guys quickly and effectively.

It still amazes me no one tried a head shot. It seems like standard SOP is chest area but when it's pretty obvious they have body armor?

They never aimed for the head? Or maybe none of them have the ability to shoot a 100+yd. headshot under stress.

On a side note, the head is smaller than the pelvic girdle or legs.

Yeah you do have a point. I don't admire those assholes but I gotta admit they knew what they were doing........At least up until the stovepipe jam.

On the AK47...Yes it was a AR15 that ended the fight..Smoke that AK fan boys!

Give me a break

OK.. take fifteen minutes.. smoke if you got them..

Point out where I am wrong..

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:54:03 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

And fast forward a few years and every cop in the US needs an AR.

4073

Yes we do.

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm pretty sure anyone with real training and a rifle could stop these guys quickly and effectively.

It still amazes me no one tried a head shot. It seems like standard SOP is chest area but when it's pretty obvious they have body armor?

They probably "tried", but really, how many cops trained with anything close to IDPA standards in the 90s?

The shooters were lighting up anything that tried to stick its head up. How many guys shooting IDPA are shooting on a 2 way range.

Quoted:

I have zero problem with cops having AR's but I don't think the taxpayers should foot the bill for every cop to have an AR. Let the taxpayers pay for the SWAT teams AR's and maybe a few to be dispersed at random among a few of the cops, if the rest want them they can pay for them.

So you'll buy a few...not too few but not too many. Goldilocks would love you. How do you decide where the cutoff on taxpayer rifle numbers is? Are you OK with departments getting the hand-me-down rifles from .mil or do you consider that a waste of taxpayer $$ as well? I'm OK with personally owned rifles...I bought the one I carry at my part time agency...but your criteria seems to be a bit random. Rifles once purchased are a long term investment that'll be carried for years and are a relatively cheap item compared to a ton of the other stuff we carry that doesn't last anywhere near as long as the rifle.

Posted: 9/11/2011 2:57:03 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm pretty sure anyone with real training and a rifle could stop these guys quickly and effectively.

It still amazes me no one tried a head shot. It seems like standard SOP is chest area but when it's pretty obvious they have body armor?

They never aimed for the head? Or maybe none of them have the ability to shoot a 100+yd. headshot under stress.

On a side note, the head is smaller than the pelvic girdle or legs.

Yeah you do have a point. I don't admire those assholes but I gotta admit they knew what they were doing........At least up until the stovepipe jam.

On the AK47...Yes it was a AR15 that ended the fight..Smoke that AK fan boys!

Give me a break

OK.. take fifteen minutes.. smoke if you got them..

Point out where I am wrong..

Because in the context you're implying, the fact an AR-15 "ended the fight" means precisely jack shit.

Posted: 9/11/2011 3:14:43 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The family of the shooter sued the LAPD.

As they should have. The cops let the second guy lie in the street and bleed to death with an ambulance feet away ready to go. Yeah, the guy was a POS but the cops don't gets to decide who get medical treatment and who doesn't. If the perp would have been black those cops would have done jail time and the law suit would have been worth millions after the city was burnt to the ground of course.

FTW

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Infamous North Hollywood shootout. (Page 2 of 2)

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