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Posted: 7/19/2015 4:17:04 PM EDT
[#1]
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Exactly. Last thing I EVER want to do is call "Reject Load" before the takeoff roll ("GO" call). That ultimately means I, as the Loadmaster, fucked up. The USAF -9 loading manual for the C-130 calls for all cargo to have 3Gs of forward restraint, 1.5Gs of lateral and aft restraint, and 2Gs of vertical restraint. So if I have a 26,000 pound vehicle, I need 78,000 pounds of forward restraint. That requires eight 10,000 pound chains and devices, and that's only if the chains are going straight forward. If you add any angularity to the chain, it "de-rates" the effective restraint of the chain. There's a mathematical formula we use to determine the effective restraint of chains attached to cargo, and its always a question asked on your annual check ride. But when I'm loading, I don't have time to whip out the tape measure and calculator, so I would add two more 10,000 chains to ensure I am WAY OVER the minimum needed restraint. A single chain or strap is capable of providing forward/aft, lateral, and vertical restraint to a piece of cargo, but is limited in its actual effective restraint in those three directions of force. So in essence, a 10,000 pound rated chain may only be providing 5,000 pounds of actual restraint based on the angle of the chain going up, forward, and across from the floor ring to the cargo. We only carry cargo straps rated for 5,000 pounds. We are allowed to restrain "lightweight vehicles" like ATVs using straps only, but for anything else... chains and devices. The C-17 and C-5 guys carry 25,000 pound chains and devices as standard, cause they haul some big shit. I guess my point is any loadmaster worth his salt makes damn sure his load is secured and that there's no was in hell it's going to shift during takeoff, shitty weather, tactical flight maneuvering, or landing. Those pictures of the strapped MRAPS make me cringe and shake my head every time I see them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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soo..basically... 'Secure that shit, Hudson.' Exactly. Last thing I EVER want to do is call "Reject Load" before the takeoff roll ("GO" call). That ultimately means I, as the Loadmaster, fucked up. The USAF -9 loading manual for the C-130 calls for all cargo to have 3Gs of forward restraint, 1.5Gs of lateral and aft restraint, and 2Gs of vertical restraint. So if I have a 26,000 pound vehicle, I need 78,000 pounds of forward restraint. That requires eight 10,000 pound chains and devices, and that's only if the chains are going straight forward. If you add any angularity to the chain, it "de-rates" the effective restraint of the chain. There's a mathematical formula we use to determine the effective restraint of chains attached to cargo, and its always a question asked on your annual check ride. But when I'm loading, I don't have time to whip out the tape measure and calculator, so I would add two more 10,000 chains to ensure I am WAY OVER the minimum needed restraint. A single chain or strap is capable of providing forward/aft, lateral, and vertical restraint to a piece of cargo, but is limited in its actual effective restraint in those three directions of force. So in essence, a 10,000 pound rated chain may only be providing 5,000 pounds of actual restraint based on the angle of the chain going up, forward, and across from the floor ring to the cargo. We only carry cargo straps rated for 5,000 pounds. We are allowed to restrain "lightweight vehicles" like ATVs using straps only, but for anything else... chains and devices. The C-17 and C-5 guys carry 25,000 pound chains and devices as standard, cause they haul some big shit. I guess my point is any loadmaster worth his salt makes damn sure his load is secured and that there's no was in hell it's going to shift during takeoff, shitty weather, tactical flight maneuvering, or landing. Those pictures of the strapped MRAPS make me cringe and shake my head every time I see them. Amen. |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 4:23:28 PM EDT
[#2]
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DOD/TRANSCOM. It was a contracted flight. We had cargo, they had the plane. The people who staged the cargo refer to the air carriers capabilities to determine if it's flyable. Nat'l Air said they could do it. Turned out they were wrong. The lowest scum in aviation populate the management ranks of the independent cargo airlines. They have no regard for safety, only getting and keeping the contract. Some of the best guys I've known fly for those types of outfits. It's a constant struggle to overcome corners cut on regs, mx, training and scheduling. The management probably took the contract knowing damn well they weren't equipped for the job. If the crew pushed back, they were probably threatened with their jobs. If I'm wrong about this, I won't be eventually. Those types are all the same. RIP to the crew. TC |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 6:24:03 PM EDT
[#3]
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Beansay, no one " marginalized " anything. Welcome to Planet Earth. All kinds of nasty stuff happens everyday, I wonder how you've shielded yourself of reality - especially in a gun forum. so, complain - and the mods remove the gif. happy now? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Fundummy, why the fuck would make a gif of the deaths of 7 crewmembers. How's it any different than a youtube video? I can chose not to watch a youtube. I can chose not to marginalize the deaths of good men trying to do their best to support those that chose to defend us. Beansay, no one " marginalized " anything. Welcome to Planet Earth. All kinds of nasty stuff happens everyday, I wonder how you've shielded yourself of reality - especially in a gun forum. so, complain - and the mods remove the gif. happy now? Unfortunately, anyone in this industry can tell you that fatalities do happen. I think that this quote sums it up nicely- "Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."— Captain A. G. Lamplugh. All pilots that have been flying for a period of time have lost friends and colleagues to tragedies like this. Many people posting in this thread have seen close friends killed in plane crashes, and some of them knew crewmembers aboard National Airlines flight 102. Posting a GIF of that accident unfolding in this thread is a classless thing to do. |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 7:05:08 PM EDT
[#4]
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All pilots that have been flying for a period of time have lost friends and colleagues to tragedies like this. Many people posting in this thread have seen close friends killed in plane crashes, and some of them knew crewmembers aboard National Airlines flight 102. Posting a GIF of that accident unfolding in this thread is a classless thing to do. I disagree. True lessons are learned by the mistakes of others. Who knows, it's possible a pilot may triple check his load before takeoff. Maybe we should just BAN all pics & videos from car wrecks to space shuttle disasters to WAR. This way no one will feel the reality and sadness, or get their fuckin' feelings hurt. I didn't reload the gif, so the cry babies can have their way. |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 7:30:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I disagree. True lessons are learned by the mistakes of others. Who knows, it's possible a pilot may triple check his load before takeoff. Maybe we should just BAN all pics & videos from car wrecks to space shuttle disasters to WAR. This way no one will feel the reality and sadness, or get their fuckin' feelings hurt. I didn't reload the gif, so the cry babies can have their way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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All pilots that have been flying for a period of time have lost friends and colleagues to tragedies like this. Many people posting in this thread have seen close friends killed in plane crashes, and some of them knew crewmembers aboard National Airlines flight 102. Posting a GIF of that accident unfolding in this thread is a classless thing to do. I disagree. True lessons are learned by the mistakes of others. Who knows, it's possible a pilot may triple check his load before takeoff. Maybe we should just BAN all pics & videos from car wrecks to space shuttle disasters to WAR. This way no one will feel the reality and sadness, or get their fuckin' feelings hurt. I didn't reload the gif, so the cry babies can have their way. The fact that you think you have to reiterate this fact to a group of pilots tells me everything that I need to know about you. |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 7:38:40 PM EDT
[#6]
.....nm
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Posted: 7/19/2015 7:58:51 PM EDT
[#7]
Flight NCR102 taxied out normally for departure on
runway 03 at Bagram at 15:14. After receiving clearance, takeoff was commenced at 15:26. The takeoff roll appeared normal. The airplane rotated normally around the Charlie intersection of the runway. Approximately 9 seconds after the crew called to rotate the airplane, the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) stopped recording, and approximately 3 seconds later the flight data recorder (FDR) stopped recording. According to witnesses and video evidence, after becoming airborne, the airplane continued to pitch up until it appeared to stall, turn to the right, then descended to impact with the ground just beyond the departure end of runway 03 and to the right. An investigation of the wreckage revealed at least the aft-most MRAP broke loose of its restraints during takeoff, shifted aft and damaged the FDR/CVR before penetrating the aft pressure bulkhead. The MRAP’s aft movement was determined to have compromised at least Hydraulic Systems #1 and #2 and may have contacted the stabilizer jackscrew assembly. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0 |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 9:43:19 PM EDT
[#8]
That was hard to watch. I cannot imagine the horror the crew went through knowing they were going down and had no way to stop it.
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Posted: 7/19/2015 9:50:17 PM EDT
[#9]
Just for you FR8
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20130429-0 At about 14:27 hours local time while the airplane was still on the ramp in Bagram, the captain was made aware of a broken strap found by one of the other crewmembers, and the cockpit crew had a discussion about a possible shift of the cargo load during landing in Bagram. There was additional discussion on re-securing the load prior to departure. |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 9:50:39 PM EDT
[#10]
A JAL 747 crash in Anchorage in 1980 or so happened the same way, except it was livestock that weren't properly locked up. They got free on takeoff, ran to the tail section and completely fucked up the center of balance.
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Posted: 7/19/2015 9:52:45 PM EDT
[#11]
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this and after the accident are they going to change that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Might be a dumb question but why doesn't the 747 have the type of D-Rings the c18 has instead of these ones? this and after the accident are they going to change that? |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 10:20:44 PM EDT
[#12]
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[snip] Do this shit somewhere else, please. 
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Posted: 7/19/2015 10:31:20 PM EDT
[#13]
There was only one word recorded on the black box after they recovered it. Its was "weight".
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:29:15 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The lowest scum in aviation populate the management ranks of the independent cargo airlines. They have no regard for safety, only getting and keeping the contract. Some of the best guys I've known fly for those types of outfits. It's a constant struggle to overcome corners cut on regs, mx, training and scheduling. The management probably took the contract knowing damn well they weren't equipped for the job. If the crew pushed back, they were probably threatened with their jobs. If I'm wrong about this, I won't be eventually. Those types are all the same. RIP to the crew. TC Quote HistoryQuoted:
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DOD/TRANSCOM. It was a contracted flight. We had cargo, they had the plane. The people who staged the cargo refer to the air carriers capabilities to determine if it's flyable. Nat'l Air said they could do it. Turned out they were wrong. The lowest scum in aviation populate the management ranks of the independent cargo airlines. They have no regard for safety, only getting and keeping the contract. Some of the best guys I've known fly for those types of outfits. It's a constant struggle to overcome corners cut on regs, mx, training and scheduling. The management probably took the contract knowing damn well they weren't equipped for the job. If the crew pushed back, they were probably threatened with their jobs. If I'm wrong about this, I won't be eventually. Those types are all the same. RIP to the crew. TC My ex-BIL used to fly Twin Commanders for a former local air freight company. He used to tell his wife that if anything ever happened to him, don't believe the usual pilot error explanation. Their maintenance was known to be lacking. I experienced it myself when I did my flight training with them (they had an FBO) and experienced numerous issues with the condition of their C152s and C172s during my training. I also loaded freight in their Twin Commanders and saw the poor condition of those as well. My BIL also flew Beech 99s for another local freight company and they also scraped by in regards to maintenance. |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 3:37:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A JAL 747 crash in Anchorage in 1980 or so happened the same way, except it was livestock that weren't properly locked up. They got free on takeoff, ran to the tail section and completely fucked up the center of balance. The Bagram crash also sounds akin to JAL123, where the aft pressure bulkhead of a 747 ruptured due to an improper repair and the resulting explosive decompression severed all of the hydraulic lines to the rear controls and caused the vertical stabilizer to seperate from the airplane. The pilots were able to keep the plane flying for another half an hour until they eventually lost control and crashed, with 520 of the 524 people on board being killed. |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 5:09:58 AM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 7/20/2015 5:30:06 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-u1hYRj04hxo/VNGRum_Z6fI/AAAAAAAACtU/9YPrIkz0WEI/s1600/b747photo.JPG http://www.baaa-acro.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/N949CA-3.jpg http://www.baaa-acro.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/N949CA-2.jpg http://asndata.aviation-safety.net.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/20130429-0-O-3-524x400.jpg An MRAP vehicle being loaded on the accident flight 29 April 2013. http://airsoc.com/articles/view/id/55a5cf14313944e0518b4569/ntsb-finds-damage-from-inadequately-secured-cargo-caused-boeing-747-crash-in-bagram-afghanistan Crew members. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335148/Bragram-747-cargo-plane-crash-MRAP-vehicles-plane-carrying-broke-free-straps-causing-crash.html hard to tell...but looks a bit light on the tiedown... |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 5:49:04 AM EDT
[#18]
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Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Yes. He died.
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Posted: 7/20/2015 11:22:46 AM EDT
[#19]
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The lowest scum in aviation populate the management ranks of the independent cargo airlines. They have no regard for safety, only getting and keeping the contract. The management probably took the contract knowing damn well they weren't equipped for the job. If the crew pushed back, they were probably threatened with their jobs. My guess is that it is a combination of this and a cowboy/git-r-done attitude among the crew. |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 11:37:49 AM EDT
[#20]
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Those pictures of the strapped MRAPS make me cringe and shake my head every time I see them. I asked this earlier in the thread but it got buried. Why do they make you cringe? What part of that setup is bad? Can you be more specific? Did he not have enough straps, were they installed wrong, wrong type? It sounds like what you're really saying is that flight should have never happened, because the aircraft wasn't really capable of properly transporting that cargo with the available hardware ("cookie sheet pallets" instead of D-rings). Was there really any way for that cargo to be safely carried on that aircraft? (Not a loadmaster and can't do math in public or private.) |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 11:42:44 AM EDT
[#21]
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In a former life I was the owner of a towing company. People don't understand why I get upset when I see a flatbed with the winch and one chain the only thing holding a vehicle in place. Usually nothing happens, until it does. Sad. Would have thought aircraft ops would leave no room for this. you just described the entire heavy construction industry nothing bad happened, don't be a pussy, we always do it that way then every so often, RIP |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 11:46:04 AM EDT
[#22]
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How were they able to determin that from the crash site with everything destroyed? http://s3.amazonaws.com/media.wbur.org/wordpress/12/files/2013/06/0624_twa-reconstruction.jpg They have amazingly clever ways to determine clues from a wreck. For instance they can tell if a light was on or not by looking at the filaments in a light bulb. If it was on it would be hot and pliable, allowing it to stretch more before breaking. |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:00:24 PM EDT
[#23]
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In a former life I was the owner of a towing company. People don't understand why I get upset when I see a flatbed with the winch and one chain the only thing holding a vehicle in place. Usually nothing happens, until it does. Sad. Would have thought aircraft ops would leave no room for this. I saw the winch cable break on a roll back while loading an impounded, stolen vehicle. Lucky nobody got killed that day...... |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:03:35 PM EDT
[#24]
I watched the whole thing happen!!! Crazy watching a plane that big basically going straight up and fighting it the whole way. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. We also helped clean it up and move stuff around for the investigators with our heavy equipment. I really didn't want to get on a plane for a while. A friend of mine waved at the pilot when he was taxiing to take off (we refuse to let him speak or wave to any pilots when we get on a plane now
 ) .
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:10:44 PM EDT
[#25]
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I'm learning a lot in this thread. I'll probably never need the information, but I still appreciate the info. Funny. I was thinking the exact same thing. (and also wishing I didn't get talked out of enlisting as a loadmaster) |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:13:47 PM EDT
[#26]
I watched the whole thing happen!!! Crazy watching a plane that big basically going straight up and fighting it the whole way. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. We also helped clean it up and move stuff around for the investigators with our heavy equipment. I really didn't want to get on a plane for a while. A friend of mine waved at the pilot when he was taxiing to take off (we refuse to let him speak or wave to any pilots when we get on a plane now
) .
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:35:29 PM EDT
[#27]
  On the 29th of April in 2013, the cargo plane crashed shortly after take-off from Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan. All seven crew members onboard were killed and the aircraft was destroyed. Bagram Airfield is the largest US Military base in Afghanistan. It is run by US Armed Forces but also occupied by the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) and the Afghan Armed Forces. The airfield was built in the 1950s and played a key role for the US during the Cold War and then in the Soviet war in Afghanistan. In 2007, Bagram Airfield was described as the size of a small town having over 40,000 inhabitants, with traffic jams, commercial shops and dual runway operations. The original flight schedule was for the Boeing 747 to fly from Chateauroux, France to Camp Bastion, Afghanistan and then continue to the Dubai World Center at Al Aktoum, UAE airport. However, National Airlines couldn’t obtain clearance to overfly Pakistan for the flight departing Camp Bastion to Dubai. The dispatcher instead planned for the flight to fly to Bagram, refuel, and continue from there to Dubai. The aircraft was held up en route to Camp Bastion as a result of indirect fire at the airport from the Taliban. The load manifest shows that the plane was loaded by National Air Cargo. National Airlines transported the cargo but National Air Cargo was responsible for the load planning, cargo/pallet build up and aircraft loading. The Boeing 747 was loaded with 94,119 kgs of cargo, including 5 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) armoured military vehicles on the main deck. National Air Cargo ground crew told the NTSB investigators that the Dubai offices conducted classes on how to palletize a Stryker, a military vehicle which weighed about 12-13 tons. Of the five mine resistant armoured vehicles loaded onto the Boeing 747, two were MRAP all-terrain vehicles weighing about 12 tons each. The other three were MRAP Cougars weighing about 18 tons each. It was the first time that National Airlines had transported the 18-ton military vehicles. More importantly, it was the first time that National Air Cargo had ever attempted to load an 18-ton Cougar on a National Airlines B747-400. The National Air Cargo Operations Specialist who was in There were seven crew. Two captains and two first officers, along charge of the pallet build-up for the accident flight load told NTSB Staff he did not have an SOP (standard operating procedure) for any particular load, there was no specific manual that they followed when building the pallets, and he did not know the load capacity of a pallet. He further said that the only manual he had for reference in Camp Bastion was a dangerous goods manual. National Air Cargo staff did not have a copy of the National Airlines Cargo Operations Manual in Camp Bastion, and did not have a computer to view any manuals online. with two mechanics and one loadmaster. The aircraft had a rest facility on board, allowing the 747 to be flown with a double crew. The accident Captain was highly experienced and described as "excellent” in his training transcripts and "having great CRM” by crew who had flown with him. The accident First Officer was new to the aircraft but was considered to have strong skills, both monitoring and flying, and was described as very well prepared for the change to the B747-400. The loadmaster had worked for National Airlines for two and a half years and had been a ground handling supervisor/trainer before that. Neither the accident Captain nor his First Officer had prior experience carrying mine resistant armoured vehicles. Neither did the loadmaster: he had never worked a National Airlines flight with an MRAP as part of the cargo load before, not even the 12 ton version. No special guidance, strapping diagrams or photos were provided to him. The Chief Loadmaster was asked if there was a conscious decision by National Airlines to approve the loading of the 18-ton Cougars. He told the NTSB that it was up to National Air Cargo (the company who took the order) and that as the operator the flight, they stuck to "you call, we haul”. The five heavy military vehicles were loaded onto the Boeing 747 and the flight crew continued on their journey to Bagram Airfield. It’s early on in the Operation Chairman’s Factual Report that the focus turns to the broken strap that the flight crew found in the cargo bay after they landed at Bagram Airfield. Here’s the transcript of that conversation. (scroll down halfway - they screwed up and knew it) |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:46:26 PM EDT
[#28]
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http://i.imgur.com/UyjpX3U.jpg http://fearoflanding.com/files/2015/02/public_57000-57499_57043_567126-4.jpg On the 29th of April in 2013, the cargo plane crashed shortly after take-off from Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan. All seven crew members onboard were killed and the aircraft was destroyed. Bagram Airfield is the largest US Military base in Afghanistan. It is run by US Armed Forces but also occupied by the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) and the Afghan Armed Forces. The airfield was built in the 1950s and played a key role for the US during the Cold War and then in the Soviet war in Afghanistan. In 2007, Bagram Airfield was described as the size of a small town having over 40,000 inhabitants, with traffic jams, commercial shops and dual runway operations. The original flight schedule was for the Boeing 747 to fly from Chateauroux, France to Camp Bastion, Afghanistan and then continue to the Dubai World Center at Al Aktoum, UAE airport. However, National Airlines couldn’t obtain clearance to overfly Pakistan for the flight departing Camp Bastion to Dubai. The dispatcher instead planned for the flight to fly to Bagram, refuel, and continue from there to Dubai. The aircraft was held up en route to Camp Bastion as a result of indirect fire at the airport from the Taliban. The load manifest shows that the plane was loaded by National Air Cargo. National Airlines transported the cargo but National Air Cargo was responsible for the load planning, cargo/pallet build up and aircraft loading. The Boeing 747 was loaded with 94,119 kgs of cargo, including 5 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) armoured military vehicles on the main deck. National Air Cargo ground crew told the NTSB investigators that the Dubai offices conducted classes on how to palletize a Stryker, a military vehicle which weighed about 12-13 tons. Of the five mine resistant armoured vehicles loaded onto the Boeing 747, two were MRAP all-terrain vehicles weighing about 12 tons each. The other three were MRAP Cougars weighing about 18 tons each. It was the first time that National Airlines had transported the 18-ton military vehicles. More importantly, it was the first time that National Air Cargo had ever attempted to load an 18-ton Cougar on a National Airlines B747-400. The National Air Cargo Operations Specialist who was in charge of the pallet build-up for the accident flight load told NTSB Staff he did not have an SOP (standard operating procedure) for any particular load, there was no specific manual that they followed when building the pallets, and he did not know the load capacity of a pallet. He further said that the only manual he had for reference in Camp Bastion was a dangerous goods manual. National Air Cargo staff did not have a copy of the National Airlines Cargo Operations Manual in Camp Bastion, and did not have a computer to view any manuals online. There were seven crew. Two captains and two first officers, along with two mechanics and one loadmaster. The aircraft had a rest facility on board, allowing the 747 to be flown with a double crew. The accident Captain was highly experienced and described as "excellent” in his training transcripts and "having great CRM” by crew who had flown with him. The accident First Officer was new to the aircraft but was considered to have strong skills, both monitoring and flying, and was described as very well prepared for the change to the B747-400. The loadmaster had worked for National Airlines for two and a half years and had been a ground handling supervisor/trainer before that. Neither the accident Captain nor his First Officer had prior experience carrying mine resistant armoured vehicles. Neither did the loadmaster: he had never worked a National Airlines flight with an MRAP as part of the cargo load before, not even the 12 ton version. No special guidance, strapping diagrams or photos were provided to him. The Chief Loadmaster was asked if there was a conscious decision by National Airlines to approve the loading of the 18-ton Cougars. He told the NTSB that it was up to National Air Cargo (the company who took the order) and that as the operator the flight, they stuck to "you call, we haul”. The five heavy military vehicles were loaded onto the Boeing 747 and the flight crew continued on their journey to Bagram Airfield. It’s early on in the Operation Chairman’s Factual Report that the focus turns to the broken strap that the flight crew found in the cargo bay after they landed at Bagram Airfield. Here’s the transcript of that conversation. (scroll down halfway - they screwed up and knew it) http://fearoflanding.com/accidents/ntsb-open-docket-of-bagram-cargo-crash-documents/ As a retired Loadmaster, that picture of the palletized vehicle gives me the willies. 
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:49:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a retired Loadmaster, that picture of the palletized vehicle gives me the willies. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: http://i.imgur.com/UyjpX3U.jpg http://fearoflanding.com/files/2015/02/public_57000-57499_57043_567126-4.jpg On the 29th of April in 2013, the cargo plane crashed shortly after take-off from Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan. All seven crew members onboard were killed and the aircraft was destroyed. Bagram Airfield is the largest US Military base in Afghanistan. It is run by US Armed Forces but also occupied by the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) and the Afghan Armed Forces. The airfield was built in the 1950s and played a key role for the US during the Cold War and then in the Soviet war in Afghanistan. In 2007, Bagram Airfield was described as the size of a small town having over 40,000 inhabitants, with traffic jams, commercial shops and dual runway operations. The original flight schedule was for the Boeing 747 to fly from Chateauroux, France to Camp Bastion, Afghanistan and then continue to the Dubai World Center at Al Aktoum, UAE airport. However, National Airlines couldn’t obtain clearance to overfly Pakistan for the flight departing Camp Bastion to Dubai. The dispatcher instead planned for the flight to fly to Bagram, refuel, and continue from there to Dubai. The aircraft was held up en route to Camp Bastion as a result of indirect fire at the airport from the Taliban. The load manifest shows that the plane was loaded by National Air Cargo. National Airlines transported the cargo but National Air Cargo was responsible for the load planning, cargo/pallet build up and aircraft loading. The Boeing 747 was loaded with 94,119 kgs of cargo, including 5 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) armoured military vehicles on the main deck. National Air Cargo ground crew told the NTSB investigators that the Dubai offices conducted classes on how to palletize a Stryker, a military vehicle which weighed about 12-13 tons. Of the five mine resistant armoured vehicles loaded onto the Boeing 747, two were MRAP all-terrain vehicles weighing about 12 tons each. The other three were MRAP Cougars weighing about 18 tons each. It was the first time that National Airlines had transported the 18-ton military vehicles. More importantly, it was the first time that National Air Cargo had ever attempted to load an 18-ton Cougar on a National Airlines B747-400. The National Air Cargo Operations Specialist who was in charge of the pallet build-up for the accident flight load told NTSB Staff he did not have an SOP (standard operating procedure) for any particular load, there was no specific manual that they followed when building the pallets, and he did not know the load capacity of a pallet. He further said that the only manual he had for reference in Camp Bastion was a dangerous goods manual. National Air Cargo staff did not have a copy of the National Airlines Cargo Operations Manual in Camp Bastion, and did not have a computer to view any manuals online. There were seven crew. Two captains and two first officers, along with two mechanics and one loadmaster. The aircraft had a rest facility on board, allowing the 747 to be flown with a double crew. The accident Captain was highly experienced and described as "excellent” in his training transcripts and "having great CRM” by crew who had flown with him. The accident First Officer was new to the aircraft but was considered to have strong skills, both monitoring and flying, and was described as very well prepared for the change to the B747-400. The loadmaster had worked for National Airlines for two and a half years and had been a ground handling supervisor/trainer before that. Neither the accident Captain nor his First Officer had prior experience carrying mine resistant armoured vehicles. Neither did the loadmaster: he had never worked a National Airlines flight with an MRAP as part of the cargo load before, not even the 12 ton version. No special guidance, strapping diagrams or photos were provided to him. The Chief Loadmaster was asked if there was a conscious decision by National Airlines to approve the loading of the 18-ton Cougars. He told the NTSB that it was up to National Air Cargo (the company who took the order) and that as the operator the flight, they stuck to "you call, we haul”. The five heavy military vehicles were loaded onto the Boeing 747 and the flight crew continued on their journey to Bagram Airfield. It’s early on in the Operation Chairman’s Factual Report that the focus turns to the broken strap that the flight crew found in the cargo bay after they landed at Bagram Airfield. Here’s the transcript of that conversation. (scroll down halfway - they screwed up and knew it) http://fearoflanding.com/accidents/ntsb-open-docket-of-bagram-cargo-crash-documents/ As a retired Loadmaster, that picture of the palletized vehicle gives me the willies. Reading the transcripts of the crew talking before take-off makes me do a double face palm.  |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 1:19:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Also one other thing to note. They had never loaded these 18-ton Cougars before so the people loading the Cougars uses two pallets with a sheet of plywood sandwiched between them to support the extra weight (see pic above in my other post). Naturally this is going to cause the entire load to literally glide across the other pallet. The bottom pallet was probably locked in but they forgot about the entire upper pallet was not locked in like the bottom pallet and was only support by straps. When they took off the top pallet probably slide right off snapping the straps.
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Posted: 7/20/2015 1:31:58 PM EDT
[#31]
Neither the accident Captain nor his First Officer had prior experience carrying mine resistant armoured vehicles. Neither did the loadmaster: he had never worked a National Airlines flight with an MRAP as part of the cargo load before, not even the 12 ton version. No special guidance, strapping diagrams or photos were provided to him.
The Chief Loadmaster was asked if there was a conscious decision by National Airlines to approve the loading of the 18-ton Cougars. He told the NTSB that it was up to National Air Cargo (the company who took the order) and that as the operator the flight, they stuck to "you call, we haul”. Almost reads like they were trying to crash a plane.
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Posted: 7/20/2015 2:01:01 PM EDT
[#32]
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Ah, the box that the Metro came in. Had to deal with a Shorts at CVG every night, looked like an ex-American Eagle bird. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Several years ago I used to fly on demand freight Part 135. We used to fly various auto parts around the country and up to Canada. Most of what we flew wasn't overly heavy and we'd normally volume out before we weighed out. With that said, we did get one pickup of 3-4 (it's been so long I can't recall the exact number) Diesel engines. We were flying a Shorts 360-300. Great bird, even though it doesn't go fast and probably won't win a beauty contest. With that said, as we were loading these engines, load shift was constantly on my mind. I used every strap we had to belt those down as tight as I could. Even having done that, I could feel them a bit when we rotated. It was a bit creepy. I can't imagine what the crew of the 7-4 felt as they were leaving Bagram. RIP. Yep, that'd be the bird. I've also heard it referred to as the box the Twin Otter came in. 
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Posted: 7/20/2015 8:32:52 PM EDT
[#33]
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That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet. BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. Were they simply incompetent? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 8:34:24 PM EDT
[#34]
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Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. So incompetence? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 8:36:21 PM EDT
[#35]
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Yea. the jet he was on nosedi ved into the earth at a couple hundred miles per hour 
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Yea. the jet he was on nosedi ved into the earth at a couple hundred miles per hour
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Posted: 7/20/2015 8:38:04 PM EDT
[#36]
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Were they simply incompetent? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet. BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. Were they simply incompetent? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile And/or complacently. |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 8:39:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet. BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. We were about 50 yards away from each other. I was at the wx station. |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 8:40:59 PM EDT
[#38]
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Were they simply incompetent? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet. BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. Were they simply incompetent? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile ETA: Asked and answered. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 10:13:43 PM EDT
[#39]
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Keep the descent rate low and the forces that could cause a forward movement can be greatly minimized. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. Keep the descent rate low and the forces that could cause a forward movement can be greatly minimized. I was thinking many of these commercial flights are used to making pretty huge nose up takeoffs for noise abatement at crowded runways. Not sure of this airlines departure profiles but seems to me they could have shallowed the nose up attitude for this specific cargo to lessen the gravity effect after rotation. I didn't read the report but does it give a time they suspect the load shifted? Shortly after rotation? Several seconds later? |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 10:23:02 PM EDT
[#40]
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I was thinking many of these commercial flights are used to making pretty huge nose up takeoffs for noise abatement at crowded runways. Not sure of this airlines departure profiles but seems to me they could have shallowed the nose up attitude for this specific cargo to lessen the gravity effect after rotation. I didn't read the report but does it give a time they suspect the load shifted? Shortly after rotation? Several seconds later? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. Keep the descent rate low and the forces that could cause a forward movement can be greatly minimized. I was thinking many of these commercial flights are used to making pretty huge nose up takeoffs for noise abatement at crowded runways. Not sure of this airlines departure profiles but seems to me they could have shallowed the nose up attitude for this specific cargo to lessen the gravity effect after rotation. I didn't read the report but does it give a time they suspect the load shifted? Shortly after rotation? Several seconds later? Generally you want to get as high as you can as quick as you can when leaving places like Bagram. People sometimes shoot at you from the surrounding area just off base. Aviator |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 10:38:27 PM EDT
[#41]
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Generally you want to get as high as you can as quick as you can when leaving places like Bagram. People sometimes shoot at you from the surrounding area just off base. Aviator Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. Keep the descent rate low and the forces that could cause a forward movement can be greatly minimized. I was thinking many of these commercial flights are used to making pretty huge nose up takeoffs for noise abatement at crowded runways. Not sure of this airlines departure profiles but seems to me they could have shallowed the nose up attitude for this specific cargo to lessen the gravity effect after rotation. I didn't read the report but does it give a time they suspect the load shifted? Shortly after rotation? Several seconds later? Generally you want to get as high as you can as quick as you can when leaving places like Bagram. People sometimes shoot at you from the surrounding area just off base. Aviator Generally! But in this case........? |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 12:19:09 AM EDT
[#42]
More details on the crash investigation. Lots of detailed info and pictures.
NTSB Docket: http://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=57043&CFID=457326&CFTOKEN=26568485 "Following the accident, the United States Air Force recovered a segment of white hydraulic (return) tubing from Runway 03 in the area of Taxiway C (Charlie). Following an examination of the tubing, Boeing indicated that the tube was part of Hydraulic System #2 and was installed in the area aft of the aft pressure bulkhead." Page 19 http://dms.ntsb.gov/public/57000-57499/57043/567180.pdf This link from the systems factual report shows witness marks at the fracture points. http://dms.ntsb.gov/public/57000-57499/57043/567181.pdf |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 12:58:34 AM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 7/21/2015 1:01:51 AM EDT
[#44]
Christ can you imagine the chaos inside the plane before the crash.
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Posted: 7/21/2015 2:09:17 AM EDT
[#45]
Pg #28 and on shows how the MRAPS were loaded.
http://dms.ntsb.gov/public/57000-57499/57043/567126.pdf |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 2:23:19 AM EDT
[#46]
Seeing all those straps makes me cringe as a previous 88M/88N.
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Posted: 7/21/2015 7:09:02 AM EDT
[#47]
The "training" he got for Loadmaster is pathetic.
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Posted: 7/21/2015 7:38:32 AM EDT
[#48]
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This is probably what it looked like on the inside http://s7.postimg.org/tjj48000b/100113_F_0571_C_004.jpg The rings on the side are the ONLY source of tie down points on the jet that i'm aware of. They're not rated for much. http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o618/Mti1Wg/DSC_0091_zps56172ba8.jpeg FUUUUUUCCCCKKKK THAT. We chained down shit in Big Iron that weighed 1/10 of what those weigh. Whoever signed up to transpo that shit fails. |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 8:01:11 AM EDT
[#49]
Voice transcript is eerie. Guys talking about being dead from lack of sleep I gathered, then one guy says "I'm dead right now."
Little did he know how right he was. |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 10:42:42 AM EDT
[#50]
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Voice transcript is eerie. Guys talking about being dead from lack of sleep I gathered, then one guy says "I'm dead right now." Little did he know how right he was. WOW...
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