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Posted: 6/2/2016 6:59:19 PM EDT
[#1]
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The officer wasn't supposed to be in that area either. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No, i wouldn't have been there in the first place  The officer wasn't supposed to be in that area either. It was not illegal for him to be there. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:00:10 PM EDT
[#2]
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If I pull up to a vehicle: -Contrary to the flow of traffic -Block the other vehicle -And then act sketchy.............. .....wait..............I wouldn't do that shit. It's dumb as fuck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you roll up on a vehicle on the side of the road, the driver pulls a gun and you are not going to do anything? If I pull up to a vehicle: -Contrary to the flow of traffic -Block the other vehicle -And then act sketchy.............. .....wait..............I wouldn't do that shit. It's dumb as fuck. Agree. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:02:30 PM EDT
[#3]
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Engaging in unjustified violent action. He never made himself known to be LE. He appeared as a normal brigand. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would almost certainly do something, LE or not. This is a very bad situation. The cop gave the shootee ample grounds to display a gun, and probably to shoot him. Had the shootee clipped the officer, it would have been a good shoot IMO. The shoot as it happened is a bad one, at least in part, because the officer was objectively the aggressor because of the situation he created - candy van, plain clothes, "You good?" "You good?" "You good?", maybe drawing a gun before the shootee did. You can't commit what is objectively a forcible felony and then lawfully respond in kind to the objective victim's lawful use or threat of force. What was the felony in this case that the officer committed to allow the other person to shoot him? Engaging in unjustified violent action. He never made himself known to be LE. He appeared as a normal brigand. He didn't have to be LE to engage in the specific actions he took. Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:04:22 PM EDT
[#4]
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Have I acted in the same way that Ofc. Cowboy did? Am I acting in such a way that can be reasonably construed to be seen as aggression? This whole shooting reads like a law school fact pattern. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't disagree. So if you are there to help the stranded motorist, he pulls a gun and you shoot him is it self-defense? Have I acted in the same way that Ofc. Cowboy did? Am I acting in such a way that can be reasonably construed to be seen as aggression? This whole shooting reads like a law school fact pattern. Yet you are legally armed person have not committed any crimes. You have no right of self-defense in this situation? It's very interesting to me. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:10:15 PM EDT
[#5]
is it unreasonable for a CCW holder to have his hand on his weapon when someone approaches their vehicle at 3:00am like this guy did?
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:11:05 PM EDT
[#6]
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He didn't have to be LE to engage in the specific actions he took. Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would almost certainly do something, LE or not. This is a very bad situation. The cop gave the shootee ample grounds to display a gun, and probably to shoot him. Had the shootee clipped the officer, it would have been a good shoot IMO. The shoot as it happened is a bad one, at least in part, because the officer was objectively the aggressor because of the situation he created - candy van, plain clothes, "You good?" "You good?" "You good?", maybe drawing a gun before the shootee did. You can't commit what is objectively a forcible felony and then lawfully respond in kind to the objective victim's lawful use or threat of force. What was the felony in this case that the officer committed to allow the other person to shoot him? Engaging in unjustified violent action. He never made himself known to be LE. He appeared as a normal brigand. He didn't have to be LE to engage in the specific actions he took. Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? Carjacking. Every action he made presented a car jacking to a reasonable human being. That's a felony. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:18:26 PM EDT
[#7]
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He didn't have to be LE to engage in the specific actions he took. Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You: 
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:19:32 PM EDT
[#8]
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Carjacking. Every action he made presented a car jacking to a reasonable human being. That's a felony. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would almost certainly do something, LE or not. This is a very bad situation. The cop gave the shootee ample grounds to display a gun, and probably to shoot him. Had the shootee clipped the officer, it would have been a good shoot IMO. The shoot as it happened is a bad one, at least in part, because the officer was objectively the aggressor because of the situation he created - candy van, plain clothes, "You good?" "You good?" "You good?", maybe drawing a gun before the shootee did. You can't commit what is objectively a forcible felony and then lawfully respond in kind to the objective victim's lawful use or threat of force. What was the felony in this case that the officer committed to allow the other person to shoot him? Engaging in unjustified violent action. He never made himself known to be LE. He appeared as a normal brigand. He didn't have to be LE to engage in the specific actions he took. Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? Carjacking. Every action he made presented a car jacking to a reasonable human being. That's a felony. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:19:55 PM EDT
[#9]
These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him.
edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:22:26 PM EDT
[#10]
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These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts How do you KNOW he wasn't? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:23:45 PM EDT
[#11]
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is it unreasonable for a CCW holder to have his hand on his weapon when someone approaches their vehicle at 3:00am like this guy did? Not at all. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:25:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Carjacking. Every action he made presented a car jacking to a reasonable human being. That's a felony. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He didn't have to be LE to engage in the specific actions he took. Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? Carjacking. Every action he made presented a car jacking to a reasonable human being. That's a felony. Yet he was not there to carjack nor did he. What actionable felony did the officer commit to be engaged with a firearm? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:30:21 PM EDT
[#13]
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These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts I beg to differ. In the example given: Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? "my" actions mimic those of the officer; "yours," those of the shootee. Without breaking any law, can I (the cop) place myself on the receiving end of a lawful lethal threat? If by my actions I (the cop) can and do elicit such a threat, is it lawful for me (the cop) to respond with lethal force in self-defense? Does it matter if I know or should know that my appearance and behavior are likely to invite an offer of violence from someone I engage? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:30:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He didn't have to be LE to engage in the specific actions he took. Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? I don't disagree. At what point did the person who is not out to commit a crime lose their right of self-defense when the unknown person draws a gun on them? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:34:34 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts 
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:36:44 PM EDT
[#16]
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I beg to differ. In the example given: Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? "my" actions mimic those of the officer; "yours," those of the shootee. Without breaking any law, can I (the cop) place myself on the receiving end of a lawful lethal threat? If by my actions I (the cop) can and do elicit such a threat, is it lawful for me (the cop) to respond with lethal force in self-defense? Does it matter if I know or should know that my appearance and behavior are likely to invite an offer of violence from someone I engage? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts I beg to differ. In the example given: Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? "my" actions mimic those of the officer; "yours," those of the shootee. Without breaking any law, can I (the cop) place myself on the receiving end of a lawful lethal threat? If by my actions I (the cop) can and do elicit such a threat, is it lawful for me (the cop) to respond with lethal force in self-defense? Does it matter if I know or should know that my appearance and behavior are likely to invite an offer of violence from someone I engage? Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:37:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No doubts. Very bad handling of the situation by the officer. But that goes back to bad tactics and possible policy violations. Not violations of the law. I think they are going to have a very hard case in this one though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Did the victim have a criminal history? Sounds like he was armed and fled. Did the officer ever ID himself? Can't get the link to work on my phone, trying to learn more about this one As far as I have read, a good guy was killed by someone who looked like a bad guy approached. You have one guy with a gun looking for other guys with guns he finds one, you have a guy with a gun who is afraid of guys with guns and he finds one. Then one ends up dead. The officer made several mistakes according to the investigation by the SA's Office. Unmarked vehicle without emergency equipment, failing to wear his TAC vest as instructed by his supervisor, no badge hanging from his neck or any police identification anywhere else on his body. He made no verbal identification of who he was to Jones. That On Star audio Corey Jones: "Huh?” Nouman Raja: "You Good?” Jones: "I’m Good” Raja: "Really?” Jones: "Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: "Really?” Jones: "Yeah” Raja: "Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: "Hold on!” Raja: "Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” Then 3 shots were fired and ten seconds later another 3 shots were fired. Raja pretty much did everything that most cops are taught not to do when initiating contact. No doubts. Very bad handling of the situation by the officer. But that goes back to bad tactics and possible policy violations. Not violations of the law. I think they are going to have a very hard case in this one though. So if I do this to a cop, no charges?
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:39:02 PM EDT
[#18]
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I don't disagree. At what point did the person who is not out to commit a crime lose their right of self-defense when the unknown person draws a gun on them? I think that the prosecutor's answer in this case is "When he engaged in conduct a reasonable man would know was likely to draw a lawful forcible response." If somebody reaches for a convincing replica firearm, having neither the intent nor the ability to inflict harm on anyone and not pointing the replica at anyone, does he have the right to respond with actual deadly force if the response to his reach is a lethal threat? IOW, if Tamir Rice had had a real gun as a backup, would he have been justified in shooting the cop who drew on him? Rice was not at the time the cop drew down breaking any law, nor did he present any actual threat to the cop. He was in very much the same position as the cop in the OP. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:40:10 PM EDT
[#19]
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Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts I beg to differ. In the example given: Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? "my" actions mimic those of the officer; "yours," those of the shootee. Without breaking any law, can I (the cop) place myself on the receiving end of a lawful lethal threat? If by my actions I (the cop) can and do elicit such a threat, is it lawful for me (the cop) to respond with lethal force in self-defense? Does it matter if I know or should know that my appearance and behavior are likely to invite an offer of violence from someone I engage? Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. How about "Yo! What's up? You know what time it is" as I reach behind my back? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:49:54 PM EDT
[#20]
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So if I do this to a cop, no charges? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No doubts. Very bad handling of the situation by the officer. But that goes back to bad tactics and possible policy violations. Not violations of the law. I think they are going to have a very hard case in this one though. So if I do this to a cop, no charges? Why would you do this to a cop? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:51:35 PM EDT
[#21]
With the info. given, sounds like the officer screwed up. I think about what I may have done. You see someone walking up to your vehicle, no id and not verbally identifying himself, going against dept. sop while doing so, what would you do? I wouldn't have my gun out but I would have my hand on it ready to go. I would be thinking I am about to get robbed or murdered.
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:51:54 PM EDT
[#22]
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Why would you do this to a cop? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No doubts. Very bad handling of the situation by the officer. But that goes back to bad tactics and possible policy violations. Not violations of the law. I think they are going to have a very hard case in this one though. So if I do this to a cop, no charges? Why would you do this to a cop? Almost as good a question as why would a cop do this to someone. Really, what was he even going to reasonably claim to be PC for his hands up diatribe? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:54:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would you do this to a cop? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: No doubts. Very bad handling of the situation by the officer. But that goes back to bad tactics and possible policy violations. Not violations of the law. I think they are going to have a very hard case in this one though. So if I do this to a cop, no charges? Why would you do this to a cop? Well, lets say I see one broken down on an off ramp, so I zip up to him going the wrong direction, block his path, and then start a friendly chat. Because I'm a helpful citizen, and not a random weirdo in a Honda. When he reaches, I get to blast him. It's not like my behavior is weird as fuck in that scenario.
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Posted: 6/2/2016 7:58:31 PM EDT
[#24]
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I think that the prosecutor's answer in this case is "When he engaged in conduct a reasonable man would know was likely to draw a lawful forcible response." If somebody reaches for a convincing replica firearm, having neither the intent nor the ability to inflict harm on anyone and not pointing the replica at anyone, does he have the right to respond with actual deadly force if the response to his reach is a lethal threat? IOW, if Tamir Rice had had a real gun as a backup, would he have been justified in shooting the cop who drew on him? Rice was not at the time the cop drew down breaking any law, nor did he present any actual threat to the cop. He was in very much the same position as the cop in the OP. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't disagree. At what point did the person who is not out to commit a crime lose their right of self-defense when the unknown person draws a gun on them? I think that the prosecutor's answer in this case is "When he engaged in conduct a reasonable man would know was likely to draw a lawful forcible response." If somebody reaches for a convincing replica firearm, having neither the intent nor the ability to inflict harm on anyone and not pointing the replica at anyone, does he have the right to respond with actual deadly force if the response to his reach is a lethal threat? IOW, if Tamir Rice had had a real gun as a backup, would he have been justified in shooting the cop who drew on him? Rice was not at the time the cop drew down breaking any law, nor did he present any actual threat to the cop. He was in very much the same position as the cop in the OP. Of course a person has the right to respond with a real firearm to the unknown replica firearm. In the Rice case the cop was in full uniform and in a marked police vehicle. The officer was responding to a call of a person pointing firearms at people. I think what you are circling around is this a fucked up situation but at the end of the day shit happens out there in the world. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:00:55 PM EDT
[#25]
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How about "Yo! What's up? You know what time it is" as I reach behind my back? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. How about "Yo! What's up? You know what time it is" as I reach behind my back? Again at what point do the parties cease having the ability to use self-defense? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:02:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: is it unreasonable for a CCW holder to have his hand on his weapon when someone approaches their vehicle at 3:00am like this guy did? Not at all. i'd wager that the cop considered the victim having his hand prudently on his firearm as a threat |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:06:58 PM EDT
[#27]
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Again at what point do the parties cease having the ability to use self-defense? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. How about "Yo! What's up? You know what time it is" as I reach behind my back? Again at what point do the parties cease having the ability to use self-defense? "When he engaged in conduct a reasonable man would know was likely to draw a lawful forcible response." I think that's the prosecutor's answer, and I think it's correct. It most certainly is a fucked-up situation, but one which was created entirely by the officer. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:09:13 PM EDT
[#28]
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Well, lets say I see one broken down on an off ramp, so I zip up to him going the wrong direction, block his path, and then start a friendly chat. Because I'm a helpful citizen, and not a random weirdo in a Honda. When he reaches, I get to blast him. It's not like my behavior is weird as fuck in that scenario. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why would you do this to a cop? Well, lets say I see one broken down on an off ramp, so I zip up to him going the wrong direction, block his path, and then start a friendly chat. Because I'm a helpful citizen, and not a random weirdo in a Honda. When he reaches, I get to blast him. It's not like my behavior is weird as fuck in that scenario. How do you block the path of a broke down vehicle? Go outside and be welcomed to the world of people doing weird behavior. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:13:38 PM EDT
[#29]
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"When he engaged in conduct a reasonable man would know was likely to draw a lawful forcible response." I think that's the prosecutor's answer, and I think it's correct. It most certainly is a fucked-up situation, but one which was created entirely by the officer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Again at what point do the parties cease having the ability to use self-defense? "When he engaged in conduct a reasonable man would know was likely to draw a lawful forcible response." I think that's the prosecutor's answer, and I think it's correct. It most certainly is a fucked-up situation, but one which was created entirely by the officer. So a person who is not engaging in illegal activities has no right of self-defense against a person who presents a lethal threat if the other person views them as a potential threat? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:14:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Was the officer acting within his lawful authority when he said "Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!”
If not, then he was not acting as an LEO, and as such I believe his actions to be criminal...attempted kidnapping? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:26:27 PM EDT
[#31]
I always thought plainclothes policemen were a danger to civilians. I know they are necessary but well marked police vehicles
and uniforms leaves little ambiguity to what they are. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:37:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts I beg to differ. In the example given: Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? "my" actions mimic those of the officer; "yours," those of the shootee. Without breaking any law, can I (the cop) place myself on the receiving end of a lawful lethal threat? If by my actions I (the cop) can and do elicit such a threat, is it lawful for me (the cop) to respond with lethal force in self-defense? Does it matter if I know or should know that my appearance and behavior are likely to invite an offer of violence from someone I engage? Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Good?” Jones: “I’m Good” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” This is part of the shit sandwhich. Jones stated he did not need help 3 times. Raja had asked the initial question and followed up with 2 questions that really can have two meanings or contexts. Raja did not ask if he needed "help" he asked if he was "good" and then asked "really". That word "really" is part of the problem for me. Let's face it, this is a big city, bad part of town and early in the morning. Raja did a pretty good job of being ambiguous in his attempt to ask if Jones need help. Why would I be concerned if I was Jones (especially now that the audio gives us a idea of what was said)? Lets look at was said and change one word that is a common street synonym for "good". Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Cool?” Jones: “I’m cool” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m cool.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” I'm sorry, but again Raja's arrival, dress and demeanor in the contact he initiated with Jones were about as piss poor choice on his part as you could come up with in the time he had to make such a decision. I've lived in Jacksonville, a big Florida city similar to that area, where robberies are more common than other lesser sized cities. "Really" (or other words/phrases) when repeated can also be a word/phrase used as a ploy to size someone up for their response and determine if they are prey (victim) or predator (will fight back). I'm not proposing "really" is a universal phrase for this, but I've worked the street enough and talked to enough victims to know that words or phrases like "really", "you sure about that" or any other repeated action can be the warning sign that you are being sized up and something bad may be fixing to come your way rather quickly. I also look at what Raja was saying and knowing he had no TAC vest on, badge visible or on his person, or radio but did have a gun and cell phone. By the time he was saying 'Get your f*cking hands up" I doubt both of Raja's hands were on the car or doing anything else than his gun hand going for his own gun. Jones also would have probably had a very good defense for SYG at the time this happened if he lived. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 8:43:06 PM EDT
[#33]
That's just a really messed up situation.
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:03:15 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? If you were on the side of the road and a guy in a rape van pulled up to you exactly like Raja did and started to pull the kind of games a robber does, is you first thought a. "Oh, he must be a Good Samaritan" b. "Shit's about to jump off" It's the kind of game a thug will try to pull. Raja had no right to draw his firearm. You can't create a bad situation and then throw down the shit happens/johncoffey/arena defense. He presented himself as a brigand and then forced an innocent man into a corner. I can't make a person think I'm about to jack them, the run back to "I'm such a nice boy. I dindu nuffin wrong" land. Think about those fake child abduction videis that were up on Facebook: they acted like felons, and thankfully nobody decided to bang it out with them. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:06:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts The cop put the victim in a situation where a reasonable man would believe he is facing imminent death or serious physical harm. The cop then shot then man he forced into a corner. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:08:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. If someone said the exact same lines to you on the street, you're not going to be on edge? It's the kind of game my clients play on people. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:25:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you KNOW he wasn't? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts How do you KNOW he wasn't?
Right there....you just went full retard. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:27:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Good?” Jones: “I’m Good” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” This is part of the shit sandwhich. Jones stated he did not need help 3 times. Raja had asked the initial question and followed up with 2 questions that really can have two meanings or contexts. Raja did not ask if he needed "help" he asked if he was "good" and then asked "really". That word "really" is part of the problem for me. Let's face it, this is a big city, bad part of town and early in the morning. Raja did a pretty good job of being ambiguous in his attempt to ask if Jones need help. Why would I be concerned if I was Jones (especially now that the audio gives us a idea of what was said)? Lets look at was said and change one word that is a common street synonym for "good". Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Cool?” Jones: “I’m cool” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m cool.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” I'm sorry, but again Raja's arrival, dress and demeanor in the contact he initiated with Jones were about as piss poor choice on his part as you could come up with in the time he had to make such a decision. I've lived in Jacksonville, a big Florida city similar to that area, where robberies are more common than other lesser sized cities. "Really" (or other words/phrases) when repeated can also be a word/phrase used as a ploy to size someone up for their response and determine if they are prey (victim) or predator (will fight back). I'm not proposing "really" is a universal phrase for this, but I've worked the street enough and talked to enough victims to know that words or phrases like "really", "you sure about that" or any other repeated action can be the warning sign that you are being sized up and something bad may be fixing to come your way rather quickly. I also look at what Raja was saying and knowing he had no TAC vest on, badge visible or on his person, or radio but did have a gun and cell phone. By the time he was saying 'Get your f*cking hands up" I doubt both of Raja's hands were on the car or doing anything else than his gun hand going for his own gun. Jones also would have probably had a very good defense for SYG at the time this happened if he lived. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts I beg to differ. In the example given: Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? "my" actions mimic those of the officer; "yours," those of the shootee. Without breaking any law, can I (the cop) place myself on the receiving end of a lawful lethal threat? If by my actions I (the cop) can and do elicit such a threat, is it lawful for me (the cop) to respond with lethal force in self-defense? Does it matter if I know or should know that my appearance and behavior are likely to invite an offer of violence from someone I engage? Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Good?” Jones: “I’m Good” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” This is part of the shit sandwhich. Jones stated he did not need help 3 times. Raja had asked the initial question and followed up with 2 questions that really can have two meanings or contexts. Raja did not ask if he needed "help" he asked if he was "good" and then asked "really". That word "really" is part of the problem for me. Let's face it, this is a big city, bad part of town and early in the morning. Raja did a pretty good job of being ambiguous in his attempt to ask if Jones need help. Why would I be concerned if I was Jones (especially now that the audio gives us a idea of what was said)? Lets look at was said and change one word that is a common street synonym for "good". Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Cool?” Jones: “I’m cool” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m cool.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” I'm sorry, but again Raja's arrival, dress and demeanor in the contact he initiated with Jones were about as piss poor choice on his part as you could come up with in the time he had to make such a decision. I've lived in Jacksonville, a big Florida city similar to that area, where robberies are more common than other lesser sized cities. "Really" (or other words/phrases) when repeated can also be a word/phrase used as a ploy to size someone up for their response and determine if they are prey (victim) or predator (will fight back). I'm not proposing "really" is a universal phrase for this, but I've worked the street enough and talked to enough victims to know that words or phrases like "really", "you sure about that" or any other repeated action can be the warning sign that you are being sized up and something bad may be fixing to come your way rather quickly. I also look at what Raja was saying and knowing he had no TAC vest on, badge visible or on his person, or radio but did have a gun and cell phone. By the time he was saying 'Get your f*cking hands up" I doubt both of Raja's hands were on the car or doing anything else than his gun hand going for his own gun. Jones also would have probably had a very good defense for SYG at the time this happened if he lived. I don't disagree. At what point did Raja not have the right of self-defense? |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:39:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you were on the side of the road and a guy in a rape van pulled up to you exactly like Raja did and started to pull the kind of games a robber does, is you first thought a. "Oh, he must be a Good Samaritan" b. "Shit's about to jump off" It's the kind of game a thug will try to pull. Raja had no right to draw his firearm. You can't create a bad situation and then throw down the shit happens/johncoffey/arena defense. He presented himself as a brigand and then forced an innocent man into a corner. I can't make a person think I'm about to jack them, the run back to "I'm such a nice boy. I dindu nuffin wrong" land. Think about those fake child abduction videis that were up on Facebook: they acted like felons, and thankfully nobody decided to bang it out with them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? If you were on the side of the road and a guy in a rape van pulled up to you exactly like Raja did and started to pull the kind of games a robber does, is you first thought a. "Oh, he must be a Good Samaritan" b. "Shit's about to jump off" It's the kind of game a thug will try to pull. Raja had no right to draw his firearm. You can't create a bad situation and then throw down the shit happens/johncoffey/arena defense. He presented himself as a brigand and then forced an innocent man into a corner. I can't make a person think I'm about to jack them, the run back to "I'm such a nice boy. I dindu nuffin wrong" land. Think about those fake child abduction videis that were up on Facebook: they acted like felons, and thankfully nobody decided to bang it out with them. I'm a b. guy by default. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:49:25 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If someone said the exact same lines to you on the street, you're not going to be on edge? It's the kind of game my clients play on people. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Well to be fair, from the transcript that has been offered here, the officer was basically asking if the motorist was "good" not if he had cash. If someone said the exact same lines to you on the street, you're not going to be on edge? It's the kind of game my clients play on people. My day job is working in the hood. I'm always on edge. Straight up...the area I work in is part of the highest crime rate area in B'ham metro. Everything from random shootings and robbery's to highway serial killers. (Locals can confirm) I was semi jacked one night while getting gas, I bladed, hand on gun (archived thread). Shit happens out in the world. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:53:18 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't disagree. At what point did Raja not have the right of self-defense? If I start a fight and you believe lethal force is reasonable, I don't have the right of self-defense until I make it clear I am not a threat. It's not the most exact or most analagous situation I can come up with. This entire situation stretches the bounds of logic and the general thinking of how a lethal force situation would unfold. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 9:59:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
He didn't have to be LE to engage in the specific actions he took. Again what felony action did he do that would justify the broke down motorist pulling a firearm on another legally acting citizen? Me: Yo, wait up a sec. You:
M: Got any cash? I need cash real bad. Y:
M: C'mon, man, I know you got somethin'. Y:
M: For shit's sake man, don't make me do anything stupid [reaching behind back with right hand] Have I broken any law? Have I said any magic words about robbing you or committing any other crime? If (as I believe you would have a right to do) you pull your gun, am I justified in pulling mine and shooting you if I am not a robber but just a CCW with poor interpersonal skills trying to bum a few bucks off you? That would be presented as evidence for the jury to consider and then they would render a decision whether the shooter's actions were reasonable, or not. Changing your fact pattern around, if the shooter was a 100#, 5', 65 year old women and the panhandler was big, menacing looking, with a hoodie over his head and his hands in his pockets/behind his back, the jury might just decide that the woman acted reasonably (as most reasonable people might be in fear of their life, in that situation) and let her walk, even though the panhandler had no weapon on him, nor was he actually going to harm her. The officer in question here will face the same standard. The GJ obviously felt that on its face, the cop acted unreasonably ("unjustified",) so it will go to trial. Chris |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 10:09:02 PM EDT
[#43]
My friend was the marshal that picked him up.
They had USMS do it since his brother is a cop and he was expected to be armed. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 10:23:30 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My day job is working in the hood. I'm always on edge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
My day job is working in the hood. I'm always on edge. Straight up...the area I work in is part of the highest crime rate area in B'ham metro.
Everything from random shootings and robbery's to highway serial killers. (Locals can confirm) I was semi jacked one night while getting gas, I bladed, hand on gun (archived thread). You would have been articulating all those things if some dude rolled up on you and acted similarly (whether or not you're in uniform) and presuming you had killed him: -Attempted to restrict movement -Advancing -Asking the same question -Carrying himself in a way that indicates he's armed Your response to "Raja/Dinduman wasn't a criminal" would have been "He shouldn't have acted like every other carjacker" Shit happens out in the world. |
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Posted: 6/2/2016 11:47:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Is the officer's defense that he shot Jones because he was reaching for a gun?
Or that his gun already out? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 12:33:07 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was not illegal for him to be there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No, i wouldn't have been there in the first place The officer wasn't supposed to be in that area either. It was not illegal for him to be there. I never claimed it was illegal for him to be there, but it is a fact he was not supposed to be in that area. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 1:12:41 AM EDT
[#47]
This case is balancing on a razors edge, it could go either way.
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:04:31 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The cop put the victim in a situation where a reasonable man would believe he is facing imminent death or serious physical harm. The cop then shot then man he forced into a corner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts The cop put the victim in a situation where a reasonable man would believe he is facing imminent death or serious physical harm. The cop then shot then man he forced into a corner. Yeah we know. I was trying to get the Judge to explain how the victim's state of mind was relevant to the charges against the cop. Manslaughter seems like an appropriate charge but if it was relevant that the victim subjectively believed the cop was a bad guy committing a crime then maybe he should be charged higher. I don't think that is how the law works tho, and was trying to understand his point. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:05:01 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right there....you just went full retard. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts How do you KNOW he wasn't?
Right there....you just went full retard. Wasn't even worth a response. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:15:00 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right there....you just went full retard. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts How do you KNOW he wasn't?
Right there....you just went full retard. He does that all the time. |
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