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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:25:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. The war I’m expecting is on US soil. It’ll happen when I’m getting groceries, doing yard work, walking my dog, and the combatants will look like my neighbors or people I pass in a crowd. Can’t exactly take my Garand to Walmart now, can I? The pistol is the best weapon you can have on you most of the time. 
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:26:29 PM EDT
[#2]
I carried my M9 all the time when I was an embedded trainer with the Afghans.
I carried my issued pistol when in Kuwait and around Africa- never left a strictly American space without it. I continue to carry pretty much all the time, but when overseas I’ll go as far as a belly band for my Glock when working out. They are far from the most important weapon, but when you need it you sure better have it. A pistol and a good knife are indispensable. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:30:04 PM EDT
[#3]
In WWII .001% soldiers carried a pistol.
Maybe less |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:31:33 PM EDT
[#4]
It was executed with typical Marxist ineptitude, but I do think that the Combloc “small pistol and PDW” doctrine (i.e AKSU/Makrov) makes good sense.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:33:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Worked for him.
 
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:34:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where’s the picture of the guy holding a bloody M9 after a very close range gunfight in Iraq? https://www.amazon.com/My-Men-are-Heroes-Leatherneck/dp/1612511368 |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:39:32 PM EDT
[#7]
 1 of 10.....so many rounds, so many malfunctions and need for a pistol. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:44:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the army is going to burden everyone for something that is at best a niche weapon used only in very specific circumstances? |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:47:18 PM EDT
[#9]
I would think having a pistol in a combat situation would be a good thing. Never know when it might be needed.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 2:51:34 PM EDT
[#10]
They can be used, and used effectively. The Ex's grandfather used one in WW2 in combat, he was out of rifle ammo. I forget every exact detail of the events. He cleared out a nip foxhole with a 1911. He and his men were pinned down. He took a bayonet through his hand.
He was a hell of a guy. Humble too. When he went to see Saving Private Ryan at the theater, he had to walk out at the opening scene. He walked out with a walker, and a tear in his eye. Silver Star AWARDED FOR ACTIONS DURING World War II Service: Marine Corps GENERAL ORDERS: CITATION: (Citation Needed) - SYNOPSIS: Thomas x XXXXXX, Sr. (MCSN: 899xxx), United States Marine Corps, was awarded the Silver Star for gallantry in action at Peleliu, Palau Islands on September xx, 1944. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:04:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the army is going to burden everyone for something that is at best a niche weapon used only in very specific circumstances? |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:09:45 PM EDT
[#12]
In an urban environment where the enemy could literally pop out on top of you? Pistol
In a rural/spread out environment where engagement distances are 5-600 yards+? More rifle mags. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:10:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:29:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In an urban environment where the enemy could literally pop out on top of you? Pistol In a rural/spread out environment where engagement distances are 5-600 yards+? More rifle mags. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:37:51 PM EDT
[#15]
Which is why the decision to buy new Sigs vs. M9A3's was stupid.. My Modularity....
Get a new Pistol they said.... It will only cost $100 Million they said.... It's a drop in the bucket compared to one F35 they said... And yet after multiple generations of service members issued 1911's, M9's and now M17's... they will all still suck and have no skills in how to properly use and shoot a handgun..... |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:37:59 PM EDT
[#16]
All weapons are “niche weapons.” When a house full of bad guys needs to be gone, a squad of men with M16s isn’t as effective as a JDAM, is it?
That’s why the goofy argument about rifle caliber is goofy. There are times when a 5.56 is better than a 7.62. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:38:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless having it means having less rifle ammo, or a leaner IFAK, or fewer comm/NOD batteries.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:39:12 PM EDT
[#18]
The Makarov is a highly-underrated general issue service pistol.
The design is incredibly clever. Hand me the gun and I can give you the firing pin itself with no tools in less than 10 seconds. It's extremely reliable and not too large or heavy. It's dated now but good inspiration for how a service pistol should be. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:45:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Good pistol in a good holster can be real handy in combat.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:47:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never had a malfunction so bad that it didnt take seconds to fix, after using multiple m4's in multiple jobs. Still havent seen anyone have to pull a pistol out instead of fixing a rifle in real life not training. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: If you are in an actual fight, and your rifle malfunctions, the quickest and smartest solution is to immediately draw your pistol and continue firing. This is how we train. Looking around for a rifle is waste of time in such scenarios. Desperate situations are desperate. Count your blessings. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 3:49:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A pistol is certainly a great thing to have as an individual concerned with saving his own ass, but I think the point he is making is that some individual 11B getting killed because his rifle went down and he had no pistol is not going to win or lose a war, and frankly does not even matter from a strategic viewpoint. In the grand scheme of warfighting, which is driven primarily by logistics anyway, you could probably eliminate the handgun from the US military inventory and not have a noticeable effect on fighting performance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: If you are in an actual fight, and your rifle malfunctions, the quickest and smartest solution is to immediately draw your pistol and continue firing. This is how we train. Looking around for a rifle is waste of time in such scenarios. In the grand scheme of warfighting, which is driven primarily by logistics anyway, you could probably eliminate the handgun from the US military inventory and not have a noticeable effect on fighting performance. 
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:01:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How valuable is a suppressed .22 though if you don’t have a wheelbarrow or a debarked chihuahua? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
During our next war the suppressed .22 will be quite valuable 
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:05:26 PM EDT
[#23]
I voted unnecessary.
It would have been nice to have (if I had a choice, I would have taken one) but considering in an Infantry Platoon of ~40 men there are two handguns issued and it doesn't seem to be enough of an issue for any change to be coming on that front then I'd say it is not necessary. Lack of pistols never harmed us on my deployments. They existed just so the M240B gunners could go to chow, the shitter, showers, PT, etc with just an M9 instead of lugging the M240B everywhere. Of course, then you always have to have weapons guard somewhere, be it the tents or vehicles unless they were "on loan" to a gate or tower duty. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:10:55 PM EDT
[#24]
"I don't want this thing often, but when I do I want it damn bad."
- H.W. McBride, quote about the combat pistol. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:11:26 PM EDT
[#25]
I was always instructed that in combat, a handgun had one role...
“Too fight your way to a rifle!” Never been in combat; hope to never be, but that’s what the milita 10 star general/FBI/CIA/ATF dude told me. 
In all, seriousness... In a combat situation, that’s the most logical. Stuck using a handgun, you pick up the first rifle you see; check ammo gather magazines. Does not count in zombie, slasher or alien invasion flicks... |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:20:02 PM EDT
[#26]
A pistol is only good to get you back to where you left your rifle.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:25:53 PM EDT
[#27]
I was able to use it once because i thought i was in a safer place treating a patient. Will never make that mistake again. I think i may have left a stain in those pants....
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:29:02 PM EDT
[#28]
During my deployments, I carried a M9 pistol (which is fucking horrible for desert conditions) and either a M16 or a Benelli M4.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:33:12 PM EDT
[#29]
I’ll take as many weapons as I can have, you never know.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:35:44 PM EDT
[#30]
The people being scared shitless by a pistol is from Iraq and had something to do with whatever Iraqi military/police guy had the pistol out was going to execute someone, so they associated pistol with someones about to die. In Afghanistan I never saw anyone give a shit about a pistol as well as basically anything else while they stood there and stared at you for 15 minutes straight.
If I'm going to be mounted/seated for a while in a vehicle I'll bring a sidearm that I can have on a belt when dismounted, but stow in a GP pouch on my carrier while seated. Crye makes a GP pouch for this, wish it had existed years ago. Otherwise I'd rather carry more mags, especially in Afghanistan where unless you had a specific mission that was kicking doors or being in buildings, a pistol's range wasn't going to be much help to you anyways. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:53:34 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Compact PDW >>>>> Pistol In US military history, the M1 Carbine is an example of a great little blaster that anyone can carry without hindering their performance, while still having an effective cartridge that kills. Almost every soldier in the Big Green Pickle Machine that currently is issued a sidearm should really have a compact PDW in a bottle-necked PDW cartridge. But if we're talking about giving trigger pullers a Secondary weapon, I think a PDW is too big for that. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:53:59 PM EDT
[#32]
With the number of green on blue attacks? Thanks I’ll keep my pistol. You can’t keep your M4 on you 100% of the time. People don’t think ANA be like it is, but it do.
Pentagon US General Shot Jeffrey Smiley Afghanistan Taliban Attack |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 4:59:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which is why the decision to buy new Sigs vs. M9A3's was stupid.. My Modularity.... Get a new Pistol they said.... It will only cost $100 Million they said.... It's a drop in the bucket compared to one F35 they said... And yet after multiple generations of service members issued 1911's, M9's and now M17's... they will all still suck and have no skills in how to properly use and shoot a handgun..... |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 5:04:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Secondaries are a necessity. When your defending a zone and your mag suddenly runs dry in your primary and there is enemy within a few meters you quickly switch to your secondary pistol to plug them. At least this is how it works in BF and COD.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:03:03 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what I've been preaching. We need to go back to the M1 Carbine concept. But if we're talking about giving trigger pullers a Secondary weapon, I think a PDW is too big for that. Two things carrying a weapon different from the rest of your crew is not smart for a couple of reasons. 1. it makes you look different than everyone else and when the enemy is looking for a target you stand out a little more as being special...you don't want to appear special at all you want to appear sub average. 2. different noise signature invites friendly fire...M60 in my case. 
Sitting up all night with the wounded you couldn't evac out due to weather or on radio watch I really liked having the .45 right next to me. Maybe it was a sense of false security I don't know never had to use it.I used my M16 a few times because when I needed to it was already in hand. The M1 carbine is light and with a synthetic stock and the right loads it might be useful...needs a red dot though...imo. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:23:21 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would be Marine Corps Sergeant Major Bradley Kasal. https://www.amazon.com/My-Men-are-Heroes-Leatherneck/dp/1612511368 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Where’s the picture of the guy holding a bloody M9 after a very close range gunfight in Iraq? https://www.amazon.com/My-Men-are-Heroes-Leatherneck/dp/1612511368 |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:31:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Answer: It depends. Different jobs have extremely different requirements. I spent years in Iraq driving civilian vehicles all over the place, wearing civilian clothes, and having a pistol that was readily available was a huge asset. If I was Private Joe Snuffy and never left a FOB or one of the giant bases, then it really would not have mattered so much. Plus there are a great many venues that do not allow long guns, so you either carry a handgun or nothing at all. For a driver or vehicle commander who may have all manner of gear piled in the front of a vehicle, and do most of their work with a radio or laptop, with their M4 often tucked between the seats when not dismounted, the pistol that is easily accessible is critical for all the shitheads who approach your vehicles with various intents. Plus the pistol may at times be considered a "last ditch" weapon. As a personal example, I worked in very small groups, so the chance of being overwhelmed by a numerically superior force was always an issue. There was always a good chance you may need to ditch everything on you but what is on your belt, which for me was my Glock and a bunch of magazines. https://i.imgur.com/EWmBknd.jpg Nobody I worked with considered their sidearm a hindrance. Besides, If for nothing else, the pistol provided peace of mind, that if you knew you were going to be captured, you had a proper exit strategy that did not include being a propaganda film for Al Jazeera.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I do appreciate the pistol as a compact defensive weapon, much better than a pointy stick when your life is on the line. But considering it's use during wartime how necessary is it? Do all infantry troops get issued one or is it by request? To those that have deployed, was it a security blanket or a liability in extra gear that you didn't really need? I know it has it's place in some war-time situations like in clearing tunnels or sitting in a foxhole defending against sappers or for other confined areas, but for most combat distances I don't see the real usefulness of a pistol. I believe I'd almost have extra ammo or other more useful gear. A rifle or carbine would usually always be a better war-time weapon than a pistol considering the ranges firefights are known to take place at. Almost like the shotgun in combat, it seems like a niche weapon. Unless your rifle/carbine becomes damaged, I'd see no real use for a pistol, the rifle/carbine would always seem to be the better choice. If my rifle did get damaged I'd rather use a battle field pick-up rifle over a pistol. Different jobs have extremely different requirements. I spent years in Iraq driving civilian vehicles all over the place, wearing civilian clothes, and having a pistol that was readily available was a huge asset. If I was Private Joe Snuffy and never left a FOB or one of the giant bases, then it really would not have mattered so much. Plus there are a great many venues that do not allow long guns, so you either carry a handgun or nothing at all. For a driver or vehicle commander who may have all manner of gear piled in the front of a vehicle, and do most of their work with a radio or laptop, with their M4 often tucked between the seats when not dismounted, the pistol that is easily accessible is critical for all the shitheads who approach your vehicles with various intents. Plus the pistol may at times be considered a "last ditch" weapon. As a personal example, I worked in very small groups, so the chance of being overwhelmed by a numerically superior force was always an issue. There was always a good chance you may need to ditch everything on you but what is on your belt, which for me was my Glock and a bunch of magazines. https://i.imgur.com/EWmBknd.jpg Nobody I worked with considered their sidearm a hindrance. Besides, If for nothing else, the pistol provided peace of mind, that if you knew you were going to be captured, you had a proper exit strategy that did not include being a propaganda film for Al Jazeera. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:34:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A pistol is only good to get you back to where you left your rifle. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:42:21 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In WWII .001% soldiers carried a pistol. Maybe less |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:44:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In WWII .001% soldiers carried a pistol. Maybe less |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:45:50 PM EDT
[#41]
I don’t know shit about mil equipment and weapons, but I know that there are countries that don’t have armor or much of an air force, but they still buy pistols. A compact, light weight weapon, that can be deployed with one hand can be useful on many occasions to individual troops.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:46:54 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The people being scared shitless by a pistol is from Iraq and had something to do with whatever Iraqi military/police guy had the pistol out was going to execute someone, so they associated pistol with someones about to die. In Afghanistan I never saw anyone give a shit about a pistol as well as basically anything else while they stood there and stared at you for 15 minutes straight. If I'm going to be mounted/seated for a while in a vehicle I'll bring a sidearm that I can have on a belt when dismounted, but stow in a GP pouch on my carrier while seated. Crye makes a GP pouch for this, wish it had existed years ago. Otherwise I'd rather carry more mags, especially in Afghanistan where unless you had a specific mission that was kicking doors or being in buildings, a pistol's range wasn't going to be much help to you anyways. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:48:32 PM EDT
[#43]
Special Forces Jerry “Mad Dog” Shriver Packed as Many as Six Revolvers, Sawn off Shotgun & His Regular Machine Gun
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:52:27 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: not in a conventional unit. in SOCOM handguns make sense. but infantry, artillery, & sub machine guns& SBRs make more sense. very different missions |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:55:14 PM EDT
[#45]
My Father saw combat in Korea. He very seldom talked shop at home. He did tell me that he worked with some other country's troops that often were in foxholes at the outer reaches of their area. These folks would do anything to get their hands on a 1911. The China boys would attack in mass and overrun the foxholes. The good guys would hunker down within the holes and shoot with the .45 as best they could.
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:55:15 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: not in a conventional unit. in SOCOM handguns make sense. but infantry, artillery, & sub machine guns& SBRs make more sense. very different missions Pistols make sense for a lot of different combat soldiers. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:59:10 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ash Hess said there was a large pistol purchase order for the M17. Because the Army was going to have Infantry mimick SOF CQB tactics. Where when the rifle/Carbine goes down in the middle of a gun fight. Pulling out and using the pistol is faster than clearing a jam or reloading, in a desperate fight for your life. So I would say based on that knowledge. The US Army definitely believes a pistol is necessary in war and has learned even more necessary. Because only 240 gunners got M9s, in the past. Now they supposedly want every team member to have one. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 6:59:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Iraq. but my last deployment ended in mid 2005. So it must have been before all that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They arent used for more then carrying a weapon to the chow hall. In Iraq by the time 2006 rolled around, almost everyone and their mom had pistols, at least in Baghdad. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 7:33:52 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Makarov is a highly-underrated general issue service pistol. The design is incredibly clever. Hand me the gun and I can give you the firing pin itself with no tools in less than 10 seconds. It's extremely reliable and not too large or heavy. It's dated now but good inspiration for how a service pistol should be. |
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Posted: 11/11/2018 7:42:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Lost_River, what scope is that? The funny part is that most dudes thought if you ran anything but an RDO you did not have your head on straight.. Low power variables had not caught on yet. 
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