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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:19:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude only got his instrument rating in 2019. He had no business in that plane. How do you know? He might have 2000 hours of actual instrument time logged in four years. Not likely, but 500 hours is easily possible. Or more. Same as his "young" age. Not an indicator. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:23:23 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you know? He might have 2000 hours of actual instrument time logged in four years. Not likely, but 500 hours is easily possible. Or more. Same as his "young" age. Not an indicator. Agreed. Rating date doesn't mean squat. Experience matters. Age, hours, ratings.... none of that takes priority over competence. I have seen some experienced people do some dumb things that cost people their lives. I updated my info and now my FAA search shows I have only had my licenses for 3 years, so don't trust their data 
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:26:32 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryRumor floated when Harry Reid to the beat down was that he touched the wrong kid. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:27:01 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude only got his instrument rating in 2019. He had no business in that plane. LOL. I've got some really bad news for you. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:32:07 PM EDT
[#5]
The pilot didn't learn anything from this crash last year.
 BREAKING NEWS: 12.28.21 San Diego Learjet #N880Z Crash And ATC Recording  
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:46:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FAA said he was fine..... but see the note  Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Date of Issue: 4/10/2023 Ratings: COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE Type Ratings: C/CE-500 Limits: ENGLISH PROFICIENT. CE-500 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED. Oops And I bet soon the training records will come out. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:49:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since he crashed on the second attempt, he knew very well. Makes the question of diverting even more important I wonder how much "passenger pressure " he was getting to land it at that airport. Looks like getthereitis may have claimed another. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:53:12 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ATIS is talking to an inanimate ATC. It’s gives current conditions, which could change rapidly. I want a real voice, on a tower to help me decide if a landing is go, or no go. LOL what? The tower doesn't do that.... they can only tell you the current conditions. Where do you think they get them? |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 10:00:55 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude only got his instrument rating in 2019. He had no business in that plane. If 4 years isn't enough, then what's your barometer? This guy might have been in over his head with the weather.... That doesn't mean they all are. No doubt the lack of a SIC was a big contributor. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 12:39:31 AM EDT
[#10]
 Early Analysis: Cessna Citation 550 Crash July 8, 2023 Murrieta/Temecula, CA |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 12:49:23 AM EDT
[#11]
I didn’t know the pilot cancelled IFR and went VFR.
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Posted: 7/11/2023 12:55:50 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL what? The tower doesn't do that.... they can only tell you the current conditions. Where do you think they get them? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ATIS is talking to an inanimate ATC. It’s gives current conditions, which could change rapidly. I want a real voice, on a tower to help me decide if a landing is go, or no go. LOL what? The tower doesn't do that.... they can only tell you the current conditions. Where do you think they get them? My reference was related to the actual weather conditions at the airport. I believe you get better real-time info from the tower than ATIS. And, the Captain was supposed to be flying with a certified co-pilot. Sad situation. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 1:30:20 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wonder if the pilot was considering diverting but got pressured by the passengers to land? I would think a young pilot like that would be super cautious. . My casual observation is that young guys are more likely to do cowboy shit and put themselves at serious risk. Old guys less likely to do cowboy shit but when they do it saves the day. Not a hard and fast thing by any means. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 1:39:37 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL what? The tower doesn't do that.... they can only tell you the current conditions. Where do you think they get them? Real time data aggregated from previous arrivals trump AWOS all day. At a place I worked the weather machine was so far from the approach end of a runway it may as well have been a different Airport. Weather personnel couldn't see it either but we could feed you the data for the last hours arrivals to help you make a better decision. Low altitude alerts are also a thing |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 1:49:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In before "associate of the Clintons/Bidens/Epstein" I think along those lines any time a small plane crashes. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 1:52:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oops And I bet soon the training records will come out. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The FAA said he was fine..... but see the note Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Date of Issue: 4/10/2023 Ratings: COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE Type Ratings: C/CE-500 Limits: ENGLISH PROFICIENT. CE-500 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED. Oops And I bet soon the training records will come out. Didn't some of the citations have some sort of bizarre way of doing single pilot? I seem to remember something along the lines of the plane not being single pilot certified, but pilots can get a single pilot waiver? Maybe the waiver doesn't show up on the airman registry? Going back 20 years trying to remember how some guys I knew did it, so I could be off. Hopefully somebody can chime in and correct me if wrong. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 2:29:52 AM EDT
[#17]
KCRQ is literally fifteen minutes away in a 550 and has an ILS. Getthereitis and stupid pilot tricks. 300 foot ceiling with no ILS, no thanks.
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Posted: 7/11/2023 2:30:44 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AWOS is a snapshot that is not updated often enough to be trustworthy. I have landed when AWOS was reporting wind 180 degrees from the current condition. Visibility reporting should not be trusted, it's slightly better than simply guessing from where you sit. Seems like more timely and accurate Wx updates on AWOS would be a reasonable NTSB recommendation, although I really have no idea how automated visibility estimates work. I do know how we made them in school... we knew how far away various bridges and buildings were, so if you could see them you had pretty fair vis estimate. Ceiling was more of a guess based on the height of the buildings and bridges, but these days could be actually measured with few devices called "lasers." |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 2:38:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could he though?? Read the last line. Needed a Second In Command. Who is that supposed to be? It sure wasn't the dealership owner- IBRAHEM H RAZICK Airman opted-out of releasing address Medical Information: No Medical Information Available Certificates STUDENT PILOT Certificates Description Certificate: STUDENT PILOT Date of Issue: 4/21/2023 Limits: CARRYING PASSENGERS IS PROHIBITED. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 2:45:13 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could he though?? Read the last line. Needed a Second In Command. Who is that supposed to be? It sure wasn't the dealership owner- IBRAHEM H RAZICK Airman opted-out of releasing address Medical Information: No Medical Information Available Certificates STUDENT PILOT Certificates Description Certificate: STUDENT PILOT Date of Issue: 4/21/2023 Limits: CARRYING PASSENGERS IS PROHIBITED. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. Could he though?? Read the last line. Needed a Second In Command. Who is that supposed to be? It sure wasn't the dealership owner- IBRAHEM H RAZICK Airman opted-out of releasing address Medical Information: No Medical Information Available Certificates STUDENT PILOT Certificates Description Certificate: STUDENT PILOT Date of Issue: 4/21/2023 Limits: CARRYING PASSENGERS IS PROHIBITED. This guy was on the plane. 
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Posted: 7/11/2023 2:50:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryWe’ll, it looks like he did have a Flight Officer. Tower records could be replayed to confirm his voice (that should be easy) |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 2:55:01 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you know? He might have 2000 hours of actual instrument time logged in four years. Not likely, but 500 hours is easily possible. Or more. Same as his "young" age. Not an indicator. I know people who know things |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 5:42:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh look, it was filled with FBI/IRS whistleblowers! How about that? Probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised to the depths of evil our government will go. No doubt they cranked up the fog machines. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 6:30:22 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryWell those details are interesting. Complete back side of the clock flying into what they thought was VFR conditions but turned out to be below minimums. Older jet, level of LNAV / VNAV minimums unknown, but with the wx a 1/2 mile vis, the approach minimums aren't even close. Did they even have an alternate filed and alternate gas? Maybe not since they cancelled IFR enroute, though picked it up again. I think the most probable causal factors will end up being fatigue, lack of alternate gas, weather, inexperience, and intentionally flying below approach minimums. There is no point to doing another approach when the wx is 1/2 mile and the mins are at least 1 nm. Going missed the first time and then doing the same approach again with no change in the vis makes zero sense unless you have a ton of gas and a good alternate and a reason to suspect you will get in the next time. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 6:31:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Real time data aggregated from previous arrivals trump AWOS all day. At a place I worked the weather machine was so far from the approach end of a runway it may as well have been a different Airport. Weather personnel couldn't see it either but we could feed you the data for the last hours arrivals to help you make a better decision. Low altitude alerts are also a thing Valid but my point is that the guy sitting in the airplane is the best judge of what's being seen at minimums, not an automated system nor the tower, and the tower generally isn't going to be giving input on whether or not the pilot should continue trying to get in or go to the alternate. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 6:38:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Valid but my point is that the guy sitting in the airplane is the best judge of what's being seen at minimums, not an automated system nor the tower, and the tower generally isn't going to be giving input on whether or not the pilot should continue trying to get in or go to the alternate. I agree with your point on the minimums. The pilot obviously ignored protocol by not finding an alternative airport, or was completely ignorant about the minimums. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 6:44:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Considering almost all crashes have pilot error in there, you are probably right .Yup. If your wing falls off mid flight the NTSB writes it up as “PIC failed to ensure wings wouldn’t fall off in flight”. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 6:47:47 AM EDT
[#28]
according to this:
https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/208935521/n819kr-1979-cessna-citation-ii the aircraft had a Garmin 625 installed which is LPV capable, if so then his minimums would have been 300 & 7/8 Wx reported at 300 & 1/2 I would guess he was hoping to get in due to ceiling at 300 feet and ceiling mins for approach LPV was 300 feet, even though the vis was less than approach mins. But who knows what the tower was reporting for vis. I am assuming part 91 can use ceiling only, but maybe it doesn't matter if part 91 can do the approach no matter what the weather is relative to the mins. Seems like a duck under the mins in hopes of seeing the approach lights could have been what happened. or maybe he saw the approach lights on the first attempt but was not in a safe position to land and went missed and tried again. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 9:55:46 AM EDT
[#29]
Viz is limiting factor for all operators.
Dumb to try approach the second time IMHO. Fatigue and lack experience (years not hours) and pressure from bosses on plane, maybe one of them up front with him too. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 10:21:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't some of the citations have some sort of bizarre way of doing single pilot? I seem to remember something along the lines of the plane not being single pilot certified, but pilots can get a single pilot waiver? Maybe the waiver doesn't show up on the airman registry? Going back 20 years trying to remember how some guys I knew did it, so I could be off. Hopefully somebody can chime in and correct me if wrong. Been awhile since I sent a guy to a Cessna school at a FSI but I believe that was baked into the training and price of the type of the type, so you sent a guy knowing he was going to be single pilot qual'd. Occasionally we sent a person to SIC removal requirement training. I think the SP training was more expensive but all of our training on 6 different types was kind of log rolled so the prices got wonky after awhile. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 10:22:29 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FAA said he was fine..... but see the note Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Date of Issue: 4/10/2023 Ratings: COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE Type Ratings: C/CE-500 Limits: ENGLISH PROFICIENT. CE-500 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 10:22:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: KCRQ is literally fifteen minutes away in a 550 and has an ILS. Getthereitis and stupid pilot tricks. 300 foot ceiling with no ILS, no thanks. That right at minimums for lots of GPS LPVs. I've only done them in a B200 but LPV if anything is more stable than an ILS. What you're giving up is good approach lighting. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 10:23:39 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, so clearly not the brand new student pilot. Was it the Vargas-Regalado guy mentioned as a pilot in the copypasta above? And do 2ICs require a type rating as well? For 91 domestic operations. No. You can easily get them a SIC type though. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 10:50:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Sad for the 6 who lost their lives. Imagine if possible medical malpractice events were handled like this. How quickly would med mal go from being one of the leading causes of death to one of the lowest? I'm thinking of the book titled "Black Box Thinking."
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Posted: 7/11/2023 11:05:57 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But who knows what the tower was reporting for vis. I am assuming part 91 can use ceiling only, but maybe it doesn't matter if part 91 can do the approach no matter what the weather is relative to the mins. Airnav airport info Airport Operations Airport use: Open to the public Activation date: 07/1989 Control tower: no ARTCC: LOS ANGELES CENTER FSS: RIVERSIDE FLIGHT SERVICE STATION |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 11:09:57 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Citation 500 series are a very forgiving aircraft if you respect their limitations. I have lots of time in the 550, 560, and 650. 
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Posted: 7/12/2023 12:29:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a lot of money to progress in that short period. Where did a young guy like himself get that dough? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The FAA said he was fine..... but see the note Certificate: COMMERCIAL PILOT Date of Issue: 4/10/2023 Ratings: COMMERCIAL PILOT AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND AIRPLANE MULTIENGINE LAND INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE Type Ratings: C/CE-500 Limits: ENGLISH PROFICIENT. CE-500 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED. Just speculation, but he probably comes from a wealthy family. The article listed on the previous page said he lived in Rancho Palos Verdes. That’s definitely a wealthy community. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancho_Palos_Verdes,_California |
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Posted: 7/12/2023 12:51:23 AM EDT
[#38]
Very wealthy community.
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