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Posted: 9/12/2024 7:59:32 AM EDT
[#1]
I've only shot a few matches with a dot, but the only time a dot may have slowed me down was shooting from a driver's seat around the A pillar.
The leaning and cramping threw my presentation off a bit and i lost a second or so when i would have been firing. Still managed 3rd out of ~60 shooters.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:10:42 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By d__j__b: Dry fire practice will build muscle memory Basically this. I'm still not there yet but I've been doing a lot of dry practice drawing from a holster to get the presentation down. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:14:53 AM EDT
[#3]
Bring the dot up directly in line with your dominant eye. It helps if your muzzle is a bit higher than the rear sight.
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USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:16:48 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: The "can't find the dot" folks are people who don't realize that their presentation isn't as good as they think it is. It's a lot easier to see the front site when it's off-center and adjust, even when they don't realize that's what they're doing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: Originally Posted By mudholestomper: I’ll never understand the “can’t find the dot” thing. Can you find the front sight? “If you can find the front sight, you can find the dot.” Patches O’Houlehan The "can't find the dot" folks are people who don't realize that their presentation isn't as good as they think it is. It's a lot easier to see the front site when it's off-center and adjust, even when they don't realize that's what they're doing. Pretty much. It took me a couple range sessions to get used to a dot. But my pistol fundamentals were pretty solid before that, which helps. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:16:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Practice
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FM, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:17:52 AM EDT
[#6]
FPNI
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:17:57 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By d__j__b: Dry fire practice will build muscle memory This. It also helps to stick to guns with a similar grip angle. Ie- don't try to learn while switching between a glock and a sig. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:26:45 AM EDT
[#8]
steel challenge
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:29:35 AM EDT
[#9]
I didn't. I use irons like a real man...
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:32:16 AM EDT
[#10]
I rubberbanded a toilet paper tube to the top of my slide and then practiced presentations until I could perfectly see straight down the tube every time.
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Posted: 9/12/2024 8:51:35 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tango-22: I didn't. I use irons like a real man... I don’t use a dot or irons and I don’t understand why you guys are all wasting your time and money. Just point and shoot. I’ve been doing it for over 20 years and have no problem hitting a car-sized silhouette at 3 yards…pussies. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:08:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FivespeedF150: Look I can’t stop picking on the Chief’s mess if I keep seeing posts like this. 
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NM, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:12:30 AM EDT
[#13]
Dryfire until you have a good index.
Having to "find the dot" indicates a lack of training. I suggest Practical Shooting Training and Dryfire Reloaded by Ben Stoeger. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:26:15 AM EDT
[#14]
I do mot usually use a dot. But the Holosun green circle dot reticle really looks good to me. It even plays well with my astigmatism
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:27:53 AM EDT
[#15]
1) take the iron sights off the gun.
2). Start from a holster or from low ready, stare at your target 3). Being the gun up into your sight line while continuing to stare at the target. When the dot is where you want it on the target, break the trigger Do this through lots of dry fire and live fire. The first thing you’ll find yourself doing is looking at the dot when it comes into your field of view. You’re going to have to fight against that. It will be easier if you have shot rifles with dots correctly and know how to be target focused not sight focused Practice, practice, practice. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:30:39 AM EDT
[#16]
For me it was dry fire practice, as well as pretending that there was no red dot. I have a Sigg P3 65 XL with a Romeo zero. Although this site is hated by GD, I’m a happy enough with it. My favorite feature is the built-in back up rear site. It co-witnesses with the dot. I simply get on target the same way I would if using iron sites and the dot is right there for me.
Despite their being a lot of Internet bullshit, they’re really is a special forces technique for doing this, which I was taught by my cousin who was with 10th group. It involves using your arm to create a sort of cheek weld. I’m trying to coax him into doing an instructional video. I didn’t really use the technique that he showed me because I already had using the red dot down pretty good, but people pick it up quickly when doing it the way he teaches. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:31:12 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By alacop: Practice your presentation a few hundred time before shooting. That. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:33:01 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USCG_CPO: I didn’t. I have never used them and none of my pistols have them. I use these weird things called sights. What do you think an optic is? And it’s doing everything that’s actually meaningful better than irons. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:33:43 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dwhitehorne: I love iron sights for the simplicity but I haven't seen a clear front sight post in over a decade. What if I told you that shooting with an optic is simpler than irons? |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:35:34 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tango-22: I didn't. I use irons like a real man... You’ve already failed at being a man if this matters to you. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:36:45 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: What if I told you that shooting with an optic is simpler than irons? Everyone knows that’s true. In my experience, people who struggle with red dots on pistols struggle with finding the dot. You can tell them all day long to practice their presentation, but if they can’t find the dot, they’re not going to be comfortable. I really wish that these discussions would use that terminology. Instead of talking about how to shoot a pistol with a red dot, people should literally talk about “finding the dot”. Shooting with a red dot is simple after that. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:42:28 AM EDT
[#22]
For me I stopped looking for the dot and then I found it.
More specifically I stopped drawing and looking for the dot and instead started drawing and focusing on a small target across the room I was in. Like a joint between 4 pieces of tile or a blemish in the wall. Now I can see my fridge from my work desk and I set up 4 small randomly placed magnets on it and practice aiming at them with a focus on the magnet. Once I started ignoring the dot and seeing the target, the dot started moving effortlessly to what I was aiming at, same as with irons. At times I can feel myself wanting to move back to focusing on the dot and then my aim falls back apart. So focus on the target and the dot will move itself. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:43:34 AM EDT
[#23]
I learned by tightening it down a little more snugly.
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Posted: 9/12/2024 9:44:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 20andOUT]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mudholestomper: I’ll never understand the “can’t find the dot” thing. Can you find the front sight? “If you can find the front sight, you can find the dot.” Patches O’Houlehan I am slower on presentation but faster on transition. What I find is that I am presenting to my irons. So when I present I am on target horizontally and vertically, but I have to lower the pistol that fraction of an inch to get to the dot. It seems small, but while I was just getting to that 1 sec draw time on irons; now that I’m swapping to dots I am over 1.5 again. It’s just a matter of overcoming muscle memory that I had intentionally developed for years. I am about as fast on the draw if I present to the co-witnessed irons and then swap to the dot after the first shot, but I think this a poor habit and I’m trying to get over to dots 100% so I want to do this properly. I’ll get there, I shoot pistols a couple times a month and im focusing on presentation more than anything. My goal is a 1 sec draw time by the end of 2024. I’m going to try some drills with an occluded window and see how that goes. Saturday was shot with dots exclusively, with the P01 and integral 22/45.  |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 10:27:10 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotigers: steel challenge I did SIG Academy's Mission: Red Dot class (now replaced by handgun optics 102 and 103, I think) and it was a great "how to red dot" but the the "Steel Frenzy" class was the one that showed I lacked the fundamental draw and presentation skills that he red dot just exposed, massively. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 10:30:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Curious if those giving RDS advice have any stats to back it up? https://www.hitfactor.info/shooters/co/
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Posted: 9/12/2024 10:36:29 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: The "can't find the dot" folks are people who don't realize that their presentation isn't as good as they think it is. It's a lot easier to see the front site when it's off-center and adjust, even when they don't realize that's what they're doing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: Originally Posted By mudholestomper: I’ll never understand the “can’t find the dot” thing. Can you find the front sight? “If you can find the front sight, you can find the dot.” Patches O’Houlehan The "can't find the dot" folks are people who don't realize that their presentation isn't as good as they think it is. It's a lot easier to see the front site when it's off-center and adjust, even when they don't realize that's what they're doing. That’s a bingo. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 10:40:35 AM EDT
[#28]
the same fundamentals for finding the front sight work for finding the dot. At least for me.
I like to draw closer to the chest, get a grip, push the gun forward with the front sight slightly elevated, find front sight, push gun forward while leveling it. For me, this puts my first shot on target more consistently. With a RD, it is very similar if not identical. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 10:42:42 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By C3H5N3O9: Have you tried putting a piece of blue tape over the dot to force your brain to focus on the target? It helps me to stop focusing on the dot. That's worth doing, that's the other half that a lot of people don't get even with rifle dots. You don't have to and shouldn't focus on the dot, stay focused on the target and bring the dot to it. Forcing the whole Bindon aiming concept thing by occluding the optic helps get that working. The first half of changing your presentation so the dot is visible is reps\ dryfire, but doing the occluded optic thing will probably help with that too since you can't do your usual move of hunting for the front sight. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 10:47:13 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By d__j__b: Dry fire practice will build muscle memory Le 1er post c'est nailed. Both eyes open, focus on the target. Don't look for the dot, just present like you have been, bringing the gun onto the target, and eventually "Ta-Daa!!" will happen. It's going to take some practice though. A poster here compared it to moving a computer mouse to what you want to click on. Maybe it's all the FPS games I've played, but that metaphor worked. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 10:51:41 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bushyvmtr: How are you guys sighting your guns in with red dots? Shooting off a rest or just shooting like you would normally shoot and making adjustments? Are you finding the dots are mostly on from the box? The second method (my rest POI is different, IME, than my pistol shooting POI. Rests are for ammo selection/evaluation and ultimate precision determinations. I also suck at BR'ing a pistol, FWIW.) No, IME, they require some fiddling with, and I haven't been able to just use the factory settings. Probably due to the mounts. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 10:53:52 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PinchedNerve: Curious if those giving RDS advice have any stats to back it up? https://www.hitfactor.info/shooters/co/ |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:00:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryHey, my mug is in that video a couple of times.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:09:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: PinchedNerve]
[#34]
Original advice
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: Dryfire until you have a good index. Having to "find the dot" indicates a lack of training. I suggest Practical Shooting Training and Dryfire Reloaded by Ben Stoeger. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: Dryfire until you have a good index. Having to "find the dot" indicates a lack of training. I suggest Practical Shooting Training and Dryfire Reloaded by Ben Stoeger. Backs it up.... Originally Posted By SV650Squid: A73613 Excellent sir! OP, this guy can help you. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:10:05 AM EDT
[#35]
I took to rifle dots without any issue. Pistol dots were a chore but it really revealed how much my presentation sucked. What did help was putting a Holosun with the 60 MOA circle that clearly showed me how off I was when I brought the gun up, and what direction I needed to go to center it. Now I wouldn't buy a gun that isn't optics ready unless its some classic.
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:14:58 AM EDT
[#36]
One thing that helps is to have tall enough iron sights that you can see the irons through the window. Then find your iron sight picture and you'll see the dot.
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:18:09 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USCG_CPO: I didn’t. I have never used them and none of my pistols have them. I use these weird things called sights. 
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NM, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:23:39 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Network_Daddy: I took to rifle dots without any issue. Pistol dots were a chore but it really revealed how much my presentation sucked. What did help was putting a Holosun with the 60 MOA circle that clearly showed me how off I was when I brought the gun up, and what direction I needed to go to center it. Now I wouldn't buy a gun that isn't optics ready unless its some classic. You can cheat your presentation as you draw with irons because you have 2 reference points you can align as you're coming up to the eye line (front and rear sight). This is only a crutch though, and, with a good index, irons simply appear at your eye line when you draw also. This is much faster and more accurate. In regards to the part in blue, I do not believe in the circle for normal use because it makes confirming off of color (you see the color of your dot while it's still moving over the target area, so you break the shot) less predictable. However, while I've never used a circle seriously, I suspect it would be a decent temporary crutch to fix some presentation issues. It's pretty great for shotguns though, which is why it's an option (per the Ravenwing Unlimited podcast straight from a Holosun employee's words). |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:25:02 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: One thing that helps is to have tall enough iron sights that you can see the irons through the window. Then find your iron sight picture and you'll see the dot. Simply put the work in during dryfire to fix your presentation. It only takes 15-30 minutes 3-5 times a week for 1-4 weeks (pending current level of skill). |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:43:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Tango-22]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThaFuq: I don’t use a dot or irons and I don’t understand why you guys are all wasting your time and money. Just point and shoot. I’ve been doing it for over 20 years and have no problem hitting a car-sized silhouette at 3 yards…pussies. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThaFuq: Originally Posted By Tango-22: I didn't. I use irons like a real man... I don’t use a dot or irons and I don’t understand why you guys are all wasting your time and money. Just point and shoot. I’ve been doing it for over 20 years and have no problem hitting a car-sized silhouette at 3 yards…pussies.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:45:44 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: You’ve already failed at being a man if this matters to you. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By Tango-22: I didn't. I use irons like a real man... You’ve already failed at being a man if this matters to you.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:51:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PinchedNerve: Curious if those giving RDS advice have any stats to back it up? https://www.hitfactor.info/shooters/co/ Yes |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 11:57:11 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gotigers: steel challenge Steel Challenge is an interesting and overlooked sport. It strips everything away and you’re left with nothing but absolute fundamentals. Drawn/present, a clean break/accuracy, transitions. Look at the time’s in order to be really good and it’s mind blowing. I highly recommend it to anyone. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 12:00:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Network_Daddy]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: The part in red is exactly what most people are experiencing when they are introduced to dots on pistols. You can cheat your presentation as you draw with irons because you have 2 reference points you can align as you're coming up to the eye line (front and rear sight). This is only a crutch though, and, with a good index, irons simply appear at your eye line when you draw also. This is much faster and more accurate. In regards to the part in blue, I do not believe in the circle for normal use because it makes confirming off of color (you see the color of your dot while it's still moving over the target area, so you break the shot) less predictable. However, while I've never used a circle seriously, I suspect it would be a decent temporary crutch to fix some presentation issues. It's pretty great for shotguns though, which is why it's an option (per the Ravenwing Unlimited podcast straight from a Holosun employee's words). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SV650Squid: Originally Posted By Network_Daddy: I took to rifle dots without any issue. Pistol dots were a chore but it really revealed how much my presentation sucked. What did help was putting a Holosun with the 60 MOA circle that clearly showed me how off I was when I brought the gun up, and what direction I needed to go to center it. Now I wouldn't buy a gun that isn't optics ready unless its some classic. You can cheat your presentation as you draw with irons because you have 2 reference points you can align as you're coming up to the eye line (front and rear sight). This is only a crutch though, and, with a good index, irons simply appear at your eye line when you draw also. This is much faster and more accurate. In regards to the part in blue, I do not believe in the circle for normal use because it makes confirming off of color (you see the color of your dot while it's still moving over the target area, so you break the shot) less predictable. However, while I've never used a circle seriously, I suspect it would be a decent temporary crutch to fix some presentation issues. It's pretty great for shotguns though, which is why it's an option (per the Ravenwing Unlimited podcast straight from a Holosun employee's words). Yeah, I hardly ever see the circle when I draw these days and my 10mm has a Holosun without the circle and I always see the dot when I bring it up to my eye. But it was a good training tool when I was figuring out how my draw was off when I bringing it up. It helped me make some adjustments that helped with muscle memory. And I think it will be handy if I'm ever having to deploy in a bad situation, off hand with my other arm out of commission, etc. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 12:00:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryNot really. It’s just the ultimate low resolution argument. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 12:01:42 PM EDT
[#46]
These threads always go the same way but I just don't get how a single dot is somehow not as good as lining up multiple sights.
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Posted: 9/12/2024 12:04:06 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Steel Challenge is an interesting and overlooked sport. It strips everything away and you’re left with nothing but absolute fundamentals. Drawn/present, a clean break/accuracy, transitions. Look at the time’s in order to be really good and it’s mind blowing. I highly recommend it to anyone. Some of these guys can't even bring themselves to try a proven sighting system. They are not ready to get schellacked by a 14yo girl. It would ruin them. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 9/12/2024 12:39:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MINOBARN]
[#48]
wooden nickel
Don't aim with the dot. "Point shoot", the dot shows up on the target. If the dot's not there, you're pointing wrong. 
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Posted: 9/12/2024 1:20:09 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Steel Challenge is an interesting and overlooked sport. It strips everything away and you’re left with nothing but absolute fundamentals. Drawn/present, a clean break/accuracy, transitions. Look at the time’s in order to be really good and it’s mind blowing. I highly recommend it to anyone. I've shot a few and won one with a 9mm PCC. I was just under 69 seconds total on 6 stages. That's an average of 2.875 sec per run. Had an 8.6 on roundabout, which is 2.15 sec average. There are kids with pistols out there that make me look like a noob. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 1:29:39 PM EDT
[#50]
I literally just put one on and focused on the target. I never had a problem. Irons or red dot I can focus on my target close my eyes bring my pistol up and I have a perfect sight picture.
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