Which of these is the toughest?  I'm going to have it done for me, so it doesn't matter how difficult it is to apply.  Also, it needs to come in light or medium gray.  What is a good place to send a weapon to have it refinished?

My vote is for Norrell's.  I think it is the best one overall.  Here are a couple of pics of a Colt I did with Norrell's

Norrells no doubt!  I also tried GunKote it was not that durable!

This is the sort of query I've wanted to post , have yet to get a clear-cut answer on the subject.  Problem is, ask 3 different choices & you'll get 3 different answers.  Personally, I've been curious about the 'Maxhard' ceramic-based finish offered by Bushmaster, but have seen only scant threads on it.

Old repost of mine:

So far of the commercially available thermal setting gun finishes I have tried (Durabake is a new one, have not tried it yet):

Norrell's
Gun-Kote
Brownell's Baking Lacquer
Brownell's Teflon/Moly

The Brownell's baking lacquer leaves a very thick finish, and is quite like the original "stoving" found on FMAP, FN, BSA, IMBEL, Enfield, and Lithgow FAL type rifles. I like the stuff when doing up a FAL, would not use it on anything else though. It is difficult to work with, you have to thin it, leaves a thick finish, and it is gooey stuff.

The Brownell's Teflon/Moly is nasty, and leaves a finish that looks like the wife's frying pan. Forget about it.

Norrell's and Gun-Kote are both easy to work with, and leave a very tough, chemical resistant thin finish. The semigloss stuff has weird reflective qualities, unlike any factory finish I have seen on a military small arm. The matte stuff tend to leave a rough feeling finish, I like to mix semigloss and matte 50/50 or so. The only difference I have found between Norrell's and Gun-Kote is that what can be done with two coats of Norrell's take four to eight coats of Gun-Kote. So takes me longer to do something in Gun-Kote, and uses significantly more product, I won't use it anymore.

Poll?

Here's some specs I gathered from norrells and KG (gunkote). Duracoats web site doesn't list specifics. Perhaps someone could add them?
All the info is cut and pasted from the KG/gunkote/Norrells web sites

Optimal thickness:
Norrells:
"The optimal thickness of the coating will be between .0003" and .0009" unless a thicker coating is desired. The thin coating characteristics of less than one thousands of an inch allows easy re-assembly of precision fitted parts."
Gunkote:
"Thickness Maximum = .0003 to .0004 +- .0001. If dealing with extremely tight tolerances allow for build-up of coating."

  Thermal Stability:
Norrells:
"The cured coating will withstand exposure at 500 f for 1000 hours minimum and 1000 hour minimum soak at -125 f.
Minimum initial oxidation temperature is 880 f.
Thermal breakaway is 1000 f minimum."
Gunkote:
"The cured coating shall withstand exposure at a temperature of 500 degrees F for 100 hours minimum and 1000 hours minimum soak at -58 degrees F when tested for adhesion requirements.
Minimum initial oxidation temperature 860 Degrees F
Thermal breakaway @ 932 degrees F Minimum."

    Abrasion Resistance:
Norrells:
"Wear life when tested on Tabor Abrasurf with #CS10 wheel installed @ 500 grams weight minimum 235 RPM's."
Gunkote:
"Wear life when test panels tested on tabor abrasive with #cs10 wheel installed @ 500 gram weight minimum 235 revolutions (average of 3 test specimens) minimum 225 revolutions (low test specimen)."
   

      Corrosion Resistance:
Norrells:
"Moly Resin™, when applied to bare sandblasted cold rolled steel will pass the test procedures for salt water spray at 1000 hours, salt water immersion at a minimum of 1000 hours, accelerated salt spray test equivalent to 30 years marine atmosphere exposure, and 60 days sea water immersion.
Meets Mil-Specs for 60-day seawater immersion
Meets Mil-Specs for accelerated salt spray tests equivalent to 30 years marine environment"
Gunkote:
"The cured coating when applied to bare sandblasted (120 Nevada dry sand @ 30 psi) to cold rolled steel test panels conforming to QQ-S-698 shall pass the following test procedures with maximum of three (3) rust dots per panel.
ASTM B117-63T Salt spray fog testing for 1000 hours, minimum rating 9
ASTM D-1654-61 Corrosion Protection Minimum rating 9
ASTM D-870-54 DI Water immersion minimum 1000 hours @ 99 degrees F
60 Days sea water immersion."

       Lubricity:        
Norrells:
"Moly Resin™ contains molybdenum disulfide, which provides excellent anti-friction characteristics. Wear life is comparable to blued, parkerized and other common firearm finishes. Moly Resin™ is a phenolic Resin that when thermally cured, produces the most durable thermally cured painted surface of any products on the market."
Gunkote:
"Gun Kote 2400 series is formulated with molybdenum disulfide lubricating base; and Gun Kote 1600 series is formulated with a high concentration of PTFE as a lubricating base and new for 2002 is our Boron based coatings."


       Fluid Resistance:
Norrells:
"Moly Resin™ will meet 24 hour emersion requirements in the following fluids: aviation gasoline, hydraulic fluid, jet fuel, lubricating oils, paint removers, trichlorethylene, nitric, sulphuric and hydrochloric acids, hydrogen peroxide, gun powder solvents, strong bases such as ammonium and sodium hydroxide, and numerous other strong chemicals.
  Meets Mil-Specs for immersion in acids, powder solvents, paint removers, bore cleaners, etc. "
Gunkote:
"Meets or exceeds Military requirements to "Resistant to Chemicals" such as, Aviation Gasoline, Grade 115/145, Jet Fuel, JP-4, Lubrication Oil, Hydraulic Fluid, Non-petroleum, Remover Paint, Epoxy Systemlene, Nitric Acid, Hydrochloric Acid, Hydrogen Peroxide, Ammonia Hydroxide, Sodium Hydroxide NaOH, Sulfuric Acid H2SO4 3%, Sodium Bisulphide, NaHS 3% and Alkaline Cleaner, Highly Chelated (ANN-RO #101). ) @ 212 degrees F 2 hours"


   Price:
Norrells
 $ 50.00 / per quart (shipping included)
 $150.00 / gallon (shipping included)
Gunkote
  Gun Kote Protective Finishes - Quart $44.00 (+shipping)
  Gun Kote Protective Finishes - Gallon $146.00 (+shipping)


As you can see, there isn't a lot of differences between the products as far as the above mentioned.
I have used Norrells, I'm quite satisfied with the results.
I have not used Gunkote.

I have used the Durabake and I admit it looks slightly thicker than Norrels but it comes in a spraycan and has no odor.  I can use the stuff in the house.

What is the Norrell's equivalent of Gunkote's Dark Earth?

Quoted: GUnKote is the best, by far.

big +1 from me..

Quoted: Quoted: GUnKote is the best, by far. big +1 from me..

What makes Gunkote so much better for you guys? Have you used both products?

Anyone know which is the best color match for early (light) to mid (medium) Colt Gray, Duracoat or Norrells

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: GUnKote is the best, by far. big +1 from me.. What makes Gunkote so much better for you guys? Have you used both products? It goes on thinner than anything else, and when properly applied it will NOT come off with any known chemical. We test the pieces we GunKote by rubbing them down with MEK. GunKote is the only finish we found that will not come off with MEK.

Have not tested Norrells yet huh?

I used the KG Kunkote on my AR for the gray and black areas of the rifle.  So far I have no wear
marks on it.  I do use it often and I don't treat it like a safe queen.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: GUnKote is the best, by far. big +1 from me.. What makes Gunkote so much better for you guys? Have you used both products?

Have yet to know a guy that would recomend Gunkote over Norrells who has used both.

Quoted: I used the KG Kunkote on my AR for the gray and black areas of the rifle.  So far I have no wear marks on it.  I do use it often and I don't treat it like a safe queen.

Holy crap thats the exact color I was going for and the same stock I use.  Crazy.  What color of gray did you use on that?

Quoted: Quoted: Have not tested Norrells yet huh? Yup, MEK took the Norrells off.

I have a MT6400C lower I painted with Norrell's grayish black, and I changed my mind, but I can't get it off.  Would you offer Norrell's stripping as a service?  

Quoted: Quoted: I have a MT6400C lower I painted with Norrell's grayish black, and I changed my mind, but I can't get it off.  Would you offer Norrell's stripping as a service?   Sure, just bead blast it off.

Ah, I thought you could remove Norrell's with MEK?  I can't get the stuff off with any chemical (want the original finish).  Really, I have not been able to remove any of the thermal setting coating I mentioned above chemically.  Am serious here, this is my circa 1995 M4gery, painted the lower gray to match the 1995 upper:



Thing is the lower is a COLTS DEFENCE, no such thing in 1995, so am wanting to strip the old finish, and return it to original, and get a COLTS MFG CO lower for it.

Quoted: Quoted: Thing is the lower is a COLTS DEFENCE, no such thing in 1995, so am wanting to strip the old finish, and return it to original, and get a COLTS MFG CO lower for it. You could scrub it off with Methyl Ethyl Keytone (MEK), but that stuff is so poisonous, and nasty I wouldn’t want to do it, and I doubt you'll find anyone willing to do so. Time to bead blast.

Are you Steve?  Do you do refinish work yourself?

Thanks for some good info.

Quoted: Quoted: Have not tested Norrells yet huh? Yup, MEK took the Norrells off.

Here's an excerpt from the instructions I received with Norrells:

Curing test:
 "You may determine if the coating is properly cured by using a cloth soaked in MEK to rub over the surface of the coating. Note: Although MEK is the solvent for phenolic base for Moly Resin used in the manufactoring process, once the coating is cured, you would only see a very light transfer of pigment onto the cloth. If not cured, heavy coloration will transfer to the cloth and you will be able to wipe off the coating down to the metal below it"

I did the 'curing test' after refinishing some mags in Norrells. A slight smudge of color came off on the rag with a good rubbing down. It did not remove the finish.

I'm not the poster boy for Norrells, and I have not used Gunkote, however in my experience MEK will not remove properly cured (300F for one hour) Norrells.

I Use Norell's Every Chance I get, Here are a few pics:


The Upper Receiver went a darker Green as soon as I applied sone Oil, Still need to see if bottom will match.


My Simple Camo Project, The Tan looks great, the OD Green was a little bit shiny

I have used Norrels many many times. I get the semi gloss. Because I can get a veriety of sheens. By changing the pre heat temp. I love it. For me preheating to 300F and a fine mist airbrush has been the key to a perfect finnish. A buddy tried some stuff from a spray can. He got from Brownells. No compairson!

If properly cured, Norrell's will not come off with MEK.  I've tried.

Yeah, yeah, Norrell's Moly dates back at least 20 years, as much as I can remember anyhow, and it's resistance to chemicals has been well established.  In addition, none of the thermal setting coatings I have tried can be removed with an effort as lame as scrubbing with MEK.

Back to the topic at hand:

Quoted: Have yet to know a guy that would recomend Gunkote over Norrells who has used both.

And in regards to Duracoat, it is not thermal setting, and as such is not even in the same league.

Quoted: Quoted: I used the KG Kunkote on my AR for the gray and black areas of the rifle.  So far I have no wear marks on it.  I do use it often and I don't treat it like a safe queen. Holy crap thats the exact color I was going for and the same stock I use.  Crazy.  What color of gray did you use on that?

I used KG GunKote gray.  It was a custom mix of their gray and white pigment.  I wanted that HK gray so I called them up and discussed it with their customer service what I wanted.  To make a long story short, they mailed me some white pigment for FREE so that I could tint their product to the color I wanted.  They are some way cool people to deal with.  I also had some black which I coated all the black parts so make them black-black (even my ARMS 40 and PRI sight).  It was really easy so spay and it baked in my oven with no odor.  I highly recommend the KG stuff. I have a write up on it somewhere, but as you're not going to be doing it yourself, it doesn't matter anyway.

There has been some very humorous comments made, and for that I thank those people.  Of course the information has been incorrect, misleading, or simply the work was done improperly, but I still find it comical.  

Take your pick JohnReich, there are going to be a lot of comments from people, and the truth is that many of the finishes will work well for you.  You may be better served by finding out who does quality refinishing work near you, and then seeing some pictures or handling samples.


I make no claims of knowing refinishing, take the above comments as my version of the truth.

"Yup, MEK took the Norrells off."

If the Norrell moly resin is not cured at sufficient temperature, methyl ethyl ketone will remove it;  The shop web site describes in detail the correct temperature to properly cure the product: www.molyresin.com

It is important to keep the temperature constantly high in the oven as opening and closing the door will make it drop significantly as it can drop fast even if properly preheated so that your temperature gauge shows 315 degrees when you start.  The product requires a cure time of an hour for best results and I keep the oven at 315 degrees or higher.  I keep taking the parts or weapon out of the oven, spraying and placing them back in the oven and when I am finished I turn the oven timer to an hour so actually they cure more than an hour for my projects.

After soemone emailed referencing this comment, here is what Norrell told me on this issue:

"Moly Resin will not come off with MEK if cured at 300 degrees. Just getting close to 300 will not cure the resin. It need to be 300 or slightly more. Gun Kote will come off with MEK if not cured at 300 too.

Once Moly Resin is cured properly, MEK, acetone, paint removers, acids,  Hoppes, etc. etc. will not remove it."

I have refinished many guns for John Norrell in about 8 years, and normally cure at 315 degrees.  If MEK would do so, John would have been very grateful in our old shop as he could not remove the large black spot on the shop floor where I spilled a quantity of moly resin when I dropped a bottle that I did not have the lid on tightly.  Nothing would take it off the floor!

In the new shop, I have been more careful about spilling it!

This photo was taken of a gun several weeks ago, showing our flat black (socom) color.  I bought this one from the shop for myself.

Robert

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a MT6400C lower I painted with Norrell's grayish black, and I changed my mind, but I can't get it off.  Would you offer Norrell's stripping as a service?   Sure, just bead blast it off. Ah, I thought you could remove Norrell's with MEK?  I can't get the stuff off with any chemical (want the original finish).  Really, I have not been able to remove any of the thermal setting coating I mentioned above chemically.  Am serious here, this is my circa 1995 M4gery, painted the lower gray to match the 1995 upper: img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Ekie12091941/1995M4gery08.jpg Thing is the lower is a COLTS DEFENCE, no such thing in 1995, so am wanting to strip the old finish, and return it to original, and get a COLTS MFG CO lower for it.

Nice color match Ekie!

You used Norrells Colt Gray/Grayish Black, correct?

Have you tried Duracoats Colt Gray finish and if so how was the color match?

Thanks.

Tag.  All kinds of cool info this morning.

tag

I Norrell'd both handgun and rifle parts and I've been very satisfied so far.  I had one problem where I did not degrease the part properly and the finish could be scraped off in a small spot.  That was my fault.  When done right, nothing has removed Norrell's.  I soaked a slide in acetone for several minutes and the finish did not come off.  I plan on using Gunkote on my brake calipers soon since Norrell's doesn't make very many bright colors.  MJD

Quoted: Nice color match Ekie! You used Norrells Colt Gray/Grayish Black, correct?

OK, allot of you guys have asked about color match.  This much I can tell you, you are not going to be able to buy a bottle of gun finish, and then paint a receiver and have it match another receiver perfect.  Just not going to happen.  In general though, Norrell's Grayish Black is similar to 60-80's Colt's anodizing.  From say 1991 on Colt's colors vary greatly, so it is a case by case basis.  To match my 1995 dark gray Colt's upper I used nine parts Norrell's SOCOM flat black, and one part Grayish Black flat.  If I were to try and match that upper again I would use some semigloss to get a better match.

Quoted: Have you tried Duracoats Colt Gray finish and if so how was the color match?

I do have some Duracoat, but never tried it, you have to mix two components, and then it takes a week or so to cure, just don't have time for that kinda thing.  Plus, it is not thermal setting, which means it will not hold up to harsh chemicals.  Mark AKA gunplumber has forgotten more then I will ever enough about finishing guns and he addresses Duracoat in this thread:

www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105072

Which is the eaiest to apply?
I've read all the comments, but since I know nothing about the different products and yet want to re-finish a rifle, is any of these just a 1) clean 2) spray on 3)bake type product / finish?

bill1962

Most people find Norrells to be the most forgiving of the finishes to apply.

Quoted: Which is the eaiest to apply? I've read all the comments, but since I know nothing about the different products and yet want to re-finish a rifle, is any of these just a 1) clean 2) spray on 3)bake type product / finish?

KG gunkote is that exact process.  I just sprayed everything down with brake cleaner to remove all oils, sprayed the KG stuff on, then baked it at 300*F for an hour.  That was it.  I understand that you can cook it at a lower temperature for a longer period, but I have not tried it.  I see no reason to unless I was worried about deforming plastic parts.  read up on them  <HERE>

The only way to really do it is to just do it.  No guts, no glory.

here it is in my oven just after I baked it.  The color looks off as it is taken indoors with heavy flash from my camera:

Quoted: Which is the eaiest to apply? I've read all the comments, but since I know nothing about the different products and yet want to re-finish a rifle, is any of these just a 1) clean 2) spray on 3)bake type product / finish?

Try here....

Pre-Ban.com AR15 refinishing guide
                   
                    ............. it should answer all of your questions.  If not, feel free to PM or email me.

Quoted: Which is the eaiest to apply? I've read all the comments, but since I know nothing about the different products and yet want to re-finish a rifle, is any of these just a 1) clean 2) spray on 3)bake type product / finish?

Either Gun-kote or Norrell's can be applied like that, although you are supposed to preheat the parts prior to spraying the finish on (I don't bother).  Norrell's goes on easier then Gun-Kote, and that is the only reason I prefer Norrell's to Gun-Kote.

Stickman and Dragonfly 228, THANKS, That made my day -- straight forward answers!
I work for the Government and that is the first thing that's gone right the whole day! Thanks.
OH, yea, I'm doing this on my lunch break.

Quoted: I have used Norrels many many times. I get the semi gloss. Because I can get a veriety of sheens. By changing the pre heat temp. I love it. For me preheating to 300F and a fine mist airbrush has been the key to a perfect finnish. A buddy tried some stuff from a spray can. He got from Brownells. No compairson!

I don't do the preheat anymore, just simpler not too, and I can be more consistent using a set room temperature, and humidity.  Plus I have an aversion to handling hot metal parts.  But, since I have not played around with preheating much am curious what you have seen in regards to the finial finish, and the preheat temperature?

As long as the parts are not cold (above 70*F) they should be okay.  I just left them in the sun for a bit, but then again, I'm in Hawaii and water freezing all by it's self is just not natural.

I have a can of Gunkote flat gray, I have problems in getting it homogenous while painting, it tends to vary a bit in colour an thickness even if I'm stirring the paint while painting, I've used both their 1600-series and 2400-series flat black without any problems before, could the can I have be faulty in some way?

A bit off topic, but is the Gunkote Milspec Gray about the same colour as the other's Colt gray etc?

tag!!!

Norrells is holding up very well on my projects to date....

sorry for the repeat of pics....will get some more soon as i have a new oven set-up and will be doing some "cooking" soon...