Delayed blowback pistols

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Delayed blowback pistols (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 11/15/2018 11:38:13 AM EDT

I just found out that the walther ccp has the gas system like a p7 and p9, I had no idea! Anybody have one with a threaded barrel? If so, how does it sound?

Other than a Remington 51 and r51, what other pistols chambered in a subsonic round have some sort of delayed blowback?

Posted: 11/15/2018 11:43:37 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I just found out that the walther ccp has the gas system like a p7 and p9, I had no idea! Anybody have one with a threaded barrel? If so, how does it sound?

Other than a Remington 51 and r51, what other pistols chambered in a subsonic round have some sort of delayed blowback?

View Quote

Everything in a subsonic caliber with a tilting, rotating or toggled barrel that engages the slide is a delayed blowback...

Unless you are asking about a GAS delayed blowback, then that narrows it down significantly.

Posted: 11/15/2018 11:45:06 AM EDT

[#2]

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Quoted:

Everything in a subsonic caliber with a tilting or rotating barrel that engages the slide...

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This.

Posted: 11/15/2018 11:49:01 AM EDT

[#3]

I want to say that Dr. Dater or maybe someone from AAC stated the P7 is a noisy host. I'd assume that any gas delayed system would be equally loud. A P9 could be a fun host, but I have no idea how hard or expensive it would be to get a threaded barrel or have the factory barrel extended.

Posted: 11/15/2018 12:07:09 PM EDT

[#4]

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Quoted:
Everything in a subsonic caliber with a tilting, rotating or toggled barrel that engages the slide is a delayed blowback....

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I assumed it was understood I meant other than browning tilting barrel style actions.

Posted: 11/15/2018 12:13:31 PM EDT

[#5]

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Quoted:
I want to say that Dr. Dater or maybe someone from AAC stated the P7 is a noisy host. I'd assume that any gas delayed system would be equally loud

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A p7/9 is too $$$ for my wallet! That's why the ccp interested me when I found out it was the same design. Google will find a couple pictures of threaded p7/9m but no information about how they sound.

I assume it would be quieter than a tilting barrel, but I've never even seen one much less seen one threaded.

Posted: 11/15/2018 12:29:15 PM EDT

[#6]

The only delayed blowback guns I'm familiar with are the Five-SeveN and HK P7.

Pretty much every single .380 and under gun that isn't recoil operated is straight up "blowback"; I'm unaware of any that utilize any sort of delaying mechanism.

I love learning about the different action styles and how that relates to suppression: blowback, delayed blowback, short-recoil.

Hopefully someone chimes in with something new and interesting.

Posted: 11/15/2018 12:49:01 PM EDT

[#7]

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Quoted:
The only delayed blowback guns I'm familiar with are the Five-SeveN and HK P7.

Pretty much every single .380 and under gun that isn't recoil operated is straight up "blowback"; I'm unaware of any that utilize any sort of delaying mechanism.

I love learning about the different action styles and how that relates to suppression: blowback, delayed blowback, short-recoil.

Hopefully someone chimes in with something new and interesting.

View Quote

Any handgun over .380 is pretty much some form of delayed blowback.

Have a look at this article in the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_delayed-blowback_firearms

Posted: 11/15/2018 1:13:02 PM EDT

[#8]

Not sure where all the misunderstanding are coming from. First, nobody seems to understand what "delayed blowback" is.

The following systems are RECOIL-operated:
1) Browning tilting-barrel as in 1911, Glock, etc.
2) Walther wedge block like P38, Beretta 92, etc.
3) Rotating Barrel (Also Browning design) like Beretta Cougar

The following systems are BLOWBACK operated with some sort of delay action:
1) Gas-delayed like the HK P7, Walther CCP, Steyr GB.
2) Roller-delayed like the HK P9 (but not the CZ 52... that is roller-LOCKED and recoil operated)
3) Lever-delayed like the Benelli 76 series
4) Toggle-delayed like the Luger
5) Hesitation-locked or "Pedersen Lock" like the Remington 51 and R51

Okay, that's a pretty comprehensive list of delayed blowback guns. Can somebody add to the list?

Of the guns on this list, only the CCP and R51 are still being made. Both are compact guns and neither are a good candidate for suppression. They're also both kinda crap guns. I own both and would not spend the money to get a threaded barrel on either.

If you want to understand the difference between RECOIL and BLOWBACK, think about the system. If the breach (slide) moves relative to the barrel while the bullet is still in the barrel, it's blowback. If it stays still as in if it LOCKS to the slide and the barrel moves ANY while locked, then it is recoil operated. So, if your gun has a fixed barrel during firing, it is either blowback or gas operated. Forgot to list the gas guns. Uh, the Wildey and the Desert Eagle. Not all of them, but that about covers it.

No, not all guns in 9mm or larger pistols are recoil-operated or delayed. I can think of three off the top of my head: Hi-Point, HK VP7, Intratec CAT-9. These would be absolutely HORRIBLE for suppressing, though.

ETA: bolded the word "Blowback" for emphasis and fixed some grammar

Posted: 11/15/2018 1:15:34 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:

Any handgun over .380 is pretty much some form of delayed blowback.

Have a look at this article in the wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_delayed-blowback_firearms

View Quote

Most of those guns in that link are rifles/subguns, where delayed blowback is much more common.

Short-Recoil rules the day for pistols, with blowback being the dominant system in .380 and below. Delayed blowback is pretty rare.

Posted: 11/15/2018 2:17:05 PM EDT

[#10]

Here's you another one, just stupid expensive and not in the States yet.

https://www.recoilweb.com/exclusive-alien-pistol-from-laugo-arms-142190.html

Looks like gas piston on the right, spring on the left, above the barrel.

LOL at 0:13, asian dude crawling all up in the works with his camera to get his good pictures so he can copy it. Had one dude literally try to crawl up in my lap to get a picture of the bits of an FSAE car I was working on back in college.

???????? Laugo Arms Alien

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI-R-sKj5tI

This one shows a teardown.

First look at ALIEN pistol from Laugo Arms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn7Ofkm1bAE

Posted: 11/15/2018 3:40:55 PM EDT

[#11]

So I have a Makarov and a P7.

Both have a fixed barrel and moving slide.
The P7 has a small piston which I assume is to retard the recoil since a 9x19 is a larger round and has more powder than a 9x18.

Are these basically the same system?

Posted: 11/15/2018 3:48:38 PM EDT

[#12]

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Quoted:
So I have a Makarov and a P7.

Both have a fixed barrel and moving slide.
The P7 has a small piston which I assume is to retard the recoil since a 9x19 is a larger round and has more powder than a 9x18.

Are these basically the same system?

View Quote

Yes and no.

The Mak is a "straight-blowback" and the P7 is a gas-retarded "delayed-blowback".

But both are blowback guns compared to the majority of pistols which operate on the short-recoil system.

Posted: 11/15/2018 5:19:37 PM EDT

[#13]

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Quoted:
Not sure where all the misunderstanding are coming from. First, nobody seems to understand what "delayed blowback" is.

The following systems are RECOIL-operated:
1) Browning tilting-barrel as in 1911, Glock, etc.
2) Walther wedge block like P38, Beretta 92, etc.
3) Rotating Barrel (Also Browning design) like Beretta Cougar

The following systems are BLOWBACK operated with some sort of delay action:
1) Gas-delayed like the HK P7, Walther CCP, Steyr GB.
2) Roller-delayed like the HK P9 (but not the CZ 52... that is roller-LOCKED and recoil operated)
3) Lever-delayed like the Benelli 76 series
4) Toggle-delayed like the Luger
5) Hesitation-locked or "Pedersen Lock" like the Remington 51 and R51

Okay, that's a pretty comprehensive list of delayed blowback guns. Can somebody add to the list?

View Quote

This. Short or long recoil systems are a locked breech, which is by definition not a form of blowback.

Only other system that comes to mind is the Blish lock used on Thompsons, but I'm not aware of any handgun having ever used it, and it was meant more as a rate reducer than breech opening delay mechanism.

Posted: 11/15/2018 5:53:28 PM EDT

[#14]

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Quoted:

This. Short or long recoil systems are a locked breech, which is by definition not a form of blowback.

Only other system that comes to mind is the Blish lock used on Thompsons, but I'm not aware of any handgun having ever used it, and it was meant more as a rate reducer than breech opening delay mechanism.

View Quote

There are few others. There's the Blish Lock, though that doesn't really work at all but you're right, they weren't used in any pistols proper. Maybe short-barreled Thompsons without a stock could have been considered pistols. There is also chamber-ring delay like on the Seecamp pistols. There is the 'rotating barrel delay' for the Savage 1907 series. I left these off because they aren't being made and don't work really well and I don't think people are suppressing their Seecamps or Savage 1907's.

ETA: Forgot about Blow-Forward. This is all off the top of my head. Sure I missed some. Radial-delay like on the CMMG Guard? Floating chamber like the Ace conversion. Racking my mind.

Posted: 11/15/2018 8:13:25 PM EDT

[#15]

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There is also chamber-ring delay like on the Seecamp pistols.

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Actually, that's probably the nearest thing to a Blish lock in a pistol.

The "Hybrid" system used in the CMR-30 could be considered delayed blowback, I guess, since the breech is never mechanically locked. But the CMR is a poor suppressor host, tends to not run reliably and beats itself to death with the extra weight on the barrel, even running very light cans. I tried with my 4.1 oz Ocelot and 2.5 oz Lynx, broke take down pins and trashed the little buffers very quickly. Might do OK with my 1.6 oz Ocelot Micro, but the all aluminum innards wouldn't take .22 WMR from a 4-1/2" barrel very well, and you don't get much suppression from a 1x3" can on a short .22 WMR barrel

Posted: 11/16/2018 12:20:41 AM EDT

[#16]

What about Korth?

Posted: 11/16/2018 12:26:38 AM EDT

[#17]

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Quoted:
What about Korth?

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Korth is just a roller-delayed blowback, just like the HK P9S.

Posted: 11/16/2018 12:47:40 AM EDT

[#18]

The point of my question was to find other pistols that might be quieter than average.

I hate trying to figure things out on the internet, but consensus of people who have shot a p7 say it's only average in the sound department. I'll assume a ccp would be similar.
I thought the p9 was the same gas design as a p7, but I was wrong. Almost irrelevant as a p9 is far too expensive for me.

Anybody seen a silenced Remington 51(not r51)?

Posted: 11/16/2018 1:01:48 AM EDT

[#19]

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Quoted:
Anybody seen a silenced Remington 51(not r51)?

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No... just no. Watch a few YouTube videos, including mine. These are CRAP! Absolute crap. Really, you're not going to get much if any improvement from a delayed blowback. The breech tends to open either EARLIER than a recoil-operated gun or, at best, around the same time. The advantage of a fixed barrel is that you don't need a LID, so your can can be smaller and lighter. There is a poor selection of cans that can take advantage of this for one reason: The OVERALL size of a pistol with a suppressor is huge... still huge without the LID and with a compact pistol. If you want the most compact, quietest pistol + can combination, just get a SilencerCo Maxim 9.

Posted: 11/16/2018 2:46:01 AM EDT

[#20]

Maxim9 looks like delayed blowback, not gas delayed but mechanically delayed.

No threaded barrels available for it yet though.

Posted: 11/16/2018 3:43:15 AM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
Maxim9 looks like delayed blowback, not gas delayed but mechanically delayed.

No threaded barrels available for it yet though.

View Quote

Posted: 11/16/2018 8:36:29 AM EDT

[#22]

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Quoted:
Maxim9 looks like delayed blowback, not gas delayed but mechanically delayed.

No threaded barrels available for it yet though.

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LOL wut?

Posted: 11/16/2018 9:02:41 AM EDT

[#23]

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LOL wut?

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Might be cool

Posted: 11/16/2018 9:17:09 AM EDT

[#24]

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Might be cool

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What would you thread on the end of your suppressor?

Posted: 11/16/2018 9:46:45 AM EDT

[#25]

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Quoted:

Everything in a subsonic caliber with a tilting, rotating or toggled barrel that engages the slide is a delayed blowback...

View Quote

No, none of those methods are blowback, delayed or otherwise. They're all locked breech recoil operated. For an operating system to be considered blowback the breech cannot be locked to the slide/bolt.

Posted: 11/16/2018 9:51:46 AM EDT

[#26]

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Forgot about Blow-Forward.

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There's a Schwarzlose for sale on Gunbroker. Cool little piece of history.

Posted: 11/16/2018 9:55:48 AM EDT

[#27]

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Quoted:What would you thread on the end of your suppressor?

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A Bayonet

Posted: 11/16/2018 10:14:00 AM EDT

[#28]

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Quoted:

A Bayonet

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Maxim9 with 3-lug adapter and MP5 bayonet

Attached File

Posted: 11/16/2018 11:09:35 AM EDT

[#29]

The point of my question was to find other pistols that might be quieter than average.

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While just an opinion, I'll suggest that barrel length and the load of the cartridge have more to do with the relative noise levels. IE a two inch barrel shooting +P+ vs a 6 inch shooting a soft target load, even within the ability to cycle it.

Not to forget the basic noise of cycling any gun, which revolvers have an advantage if they seal on ignition. IIRC some Webley did that.

Now include the capture volume of a silencer defined by it's length and diameter, a larger one can be quieter than a short skinny one. The result is that attempting to choose the action to enhance the final level of volume is pretty far down the list.

Posted: 11/16/2018 12:10:39 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
While just an opinion, I'll suggest that barrel length and the load of the cartridge have more to do with the relative noise levels. IE a two inch barrel shooting +P+ vs a 6 inch shooting a soft target load, even within the ability to cycle it.

Not to forget the basic noise of cycling any gun, which revolvers have an advantage if they seal on ignition. IIRC some Webley did that.

Now include the capture volume of a silencer defined by it's length and diameter, a larger one can be quieter than a short skinny one. The result is that attempting to choose the action to enhance the final level of volume is pretty far down the list.

View Quote

I think everyone here is aware of all of that.
But some hosts are intrinsically quieter than others, all other things being equal.

Posted: 11/16/2018 12:32:10 PM EDT

[#31]

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Maxim9 with 3-lug adapter and MP5 bayonet

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/173511/max9_png-740673.JPG

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I had no awareness of that.

Shit.

Now I have to get one.

ETA: $130?! I'm not sure I'll get that many laughs out of it... why does goofy stuff like this have to cost so much? RDTCU, you once again cost me too much money!

Posted: 11/16/2018 12:40:43 PM EDT

[#32]

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RDTCU, you once again cost me too much money!

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Posted: 11/16/2018 1:02:10 PM EDT

[#33]

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Quoted:
The point of my question was to find other pistols that might be quieter than average.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quoted:
The point of my question was to find other pistols that might be quieter than average.

As mentioned, main advantage to the delayed is that they are less weight sensitive than browning tilt barrels. I imagine you could find something that stays closed longer to reduce blowback, but not sure.

I've got an SRT Matrix which is 1.25? diameter, and 6.4? long, and weighs 5.5 ounces. It is built to work on the Beretta 92 and functions and sounds great with no booster. Won't work on browning actions, but I'd love it if the Walther CCP was available in a threaded model just to have a small light weight option that I'd never use. I have used it on my AR in 9mm before.

I thought the p9 was the same gas design as a p7, but I was wrong. Almost irrelevant as a p9 is far too expensive for me.

I think they're supposed to be great for the same reasons the MP5 is, sort of self-regulating without needing a booster, due to rollers. I haven't even SEEN one in years and no clue whether it's that much better though.

I think the problem is that you won't find a cheap option that uses a complicated design (compared to browning or fixed) and also has a threaded option anyway, so... yeah.

Posted: 11/16/2018 1:04:17 PM EDT

[#34]

Doesnt the desert eagle work off of a rotating bolt that is gas actuated, (basically a m4 pistol in .357, .44, or .50AE).

Posted: 11/16/2018 1:12:45 PM EDT

[#35]

CZ52 or HK P9S with custom rollers to further delay the blowback, not sure they'd be any quieter than a locked breech system though.

If anyone made a long recoil pistol that would likely be the quietest semi auto action.

Posted: 11/16/2018 1:31:20 PM EDT

[#36]

Yes. That's also why firing unjacketed bullets out of a Desert Eagle tends to be a bad idea: it clogs the gas port.

Posted: 11/16/2018 1:32:00 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
CZ52 or HK P9S with custom rollers to further delay the blowback, not sure they'd be any quieter than a locked breech system though.

If anyone made a long recoil pistol that would likely be the quietest semi auto action.

View Quote

The rollers adjust headspace, not the timing of the opening. You'd want a different angled locking piece.

Posted: 11/16/2018 1:45:39 PM EDT

[#38]

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Quoted:
Doesnt the desert eagle work off of a rotating bolt that is gas actuated, (basically a m4 pistol in .357, .44, or .50AE).

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Gas operated, yes, but not technically gas-delayed, as OP is asking.

I don't think the DE makes the quietest host

Posted: 11/16/2018 2:04:44 PM EDT

[#39]

I don't know, jakk1045 (YouTube user, unsure of his AR15.com name) seems like he did a great job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dSw8rbZLOs

Posted: 11/16/2018 2:09:49 PM EDT

[#40]

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I don't know, jakk1045 (YouTube user, unsure of his AR15.com name) seems like he did a great job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dSw8rbZLOs

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Did you watch the video?
That's also an exceptionally large suppressor.

Posted: 11/16/2018 2:17:07 PM EDT

[#41]

Yes, I did. And yes, it's a huge can for .44mag.

While it's not the quietest thing in the world, I'm still amazed at how quiet it is. I really expected a whole lot more noise than that!

Posted: 11/16/2018 2:25:26 PM EDT

[#42]

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Yes, I did. And yes, it's a huge can for .44mag.

While it's not the quietest thing in the world, I'm still amazed at how quiet it is. I really expected a whole lot more noise than that!

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You can't base anything off of a youtube video of one gun, with no comparison, shot on an unknown camera, likely with auto-gain audio.

Posted: 11/16/2018 2:31:29 PM EDT

[#43]

Yeah, that's pretty true. Here, let me specify (and all in good fun): I expected to hear an echo, but the can appears to be functional at seemingly reducing the overall sound of firing a .44mag out of a pistol. Happy?

Posted: 11/16/2018 4:05:15 PM EDT

[#44]

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Quoted:
Doesnt the desert eagle work off of a rotating bolt that is gas actuated, (basically a m4 pistol in .357, .44, or .50AE).

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Yes it is one of the few gas operated pistols. Rare for any autoloading pistol to not be blowback or recoil operated.

Posted: 11/16/2018 4:15:01 PM EDT

[#45]

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Quoted:
CZ52 or HK P9S with custom rollers to further delay the blowback, not sure they'd be any quieter than a locked breech system though.

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Once again, the CZ52 pistol is NOT roller-delayed. It is roller-LOCKED and RECOIL-operated, just like the Glock 17 and M1911.

Posted: 11/16/2018 4:20:04 PM EDT

[#46]

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Once again, the CZ52 pistol is NOT roller-delayed. It is roller-LOCKED and RECOIL-operated, just like the Glock 17 and M1911.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quoted:

Quoted:
CZ52 or HK P9S with custom rollers to further delay the blowback, not sure they'd be any quieter than a locked breech system though.

Once again, the CZ52 pistol is NOT roller-delayed. It is roller-LOCKED and RECOIL-operated, just like the Glock 17 and M1911.

I knew that, just forgot.

Posted: 11/16/2018 4:22:08 PM EDT

[#47]

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Quoted:
Yes it is one of the few gas operated pistols. Rare for any autoloading pistol to not be blowback or recoil operated.

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A couple other gas-operated pistols

Wildey

Lewis gas operated pistol

And a couple more gas-delayed pistols

Vektor CP1

Wilson (Tanfoglio) ADP

Steyr GB

Posted: 11/16/2018 4:30:10 PM EDT

[#48]

The Wilson ADP wasn't Tanfoglio. It's from South Africa. It was imported as the Heritage Stealth for a few years as well. It's a complete piece of shit.

Posted: 11/16/2018 4:37:05 PM EDT

[#49]

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Quoted:
I knew that, just forgot.

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Just try to explain what an MG-42 is.... best I can figure it's a gas-boosted, recoil-operated, roller-locked beast.

Posted: 11/16/2018 5:43:43 PM EDT

[#50]

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The Wilson ADP wasn't Tanfoglio. It's from South Africa. It was imported as the Heritage Stealth for a few years as well. It's a complete piece of shit.

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Tanfoglio P25.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Delayed blowback pistols (Page 1 of 2)

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