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Posted: 6/16/2024 7:38:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BASE: I'm curious what the weldment that it attaches to on the gun looks like.  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 7:54:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Thank you. I was looking all over for a close up of that area. Clears a couple things up for me.
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/16/2024 10:06:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Type7SOT: FYI, the $5 "mounting support" is basically useless. Its part of the actual carry handle, NOT the part that gets welded to the receiver. If you buy the carry handle, it already has that part. Thats probably why its only $5. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Type7SOT: FYI, the $5 "mounting support" is basically useless. Its part of the actual carry handle, NOT the part that gets welded to the receiver. If you buy the carry handle, it already has that part. Thats probably why its only $5. Well shit, I hadn’t noticed that. Originally Posted By barbcue: i noticed that as well. The big one is the weld fitment part that goes on the gun itself. It has to be correct to which ever version of the handle one goes with. looks like RTG has the 21 axle i noticed HK Parts has the 21 spring. I wonder if RTG will be getting anymore 21 carry handles in ? Maybe i will send him an email asking if thats a possiblity and if he has access to someone making the weld fitment parts for the 21. (Email to RTG sent) RTG isn’t getting any more 21/21e/23e parts. They bought what they have many years ago. Originally Posted By BASE: The carry handle seems like it would be, well...handy. I'm curious what the weldment that it attaches to on the gun looks like. Surely it couldn't be too hard to make one. What are you guys doing for the reinforcing rails? I see HK parts has them back in stock now but damn they are spendy. BPP has them listed but someone on WG mentioned they don't really have them in stock. The carry handle isn’t necessary on the 21/21e/23e. On the 249 and 240, the carry handle is part of the quick detach/attach barrel lockup, so it makes sense. On the 21/21e/23e its sole purpose is to carry the gun. I say skip it. Typically if BPP lists something in stock on their website, it’s in stock. I’d snag a set of reinforcement rails from BPP or HKP. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/16/2024 10:09:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Heineken]
[#4]
I did some more buffer testing today in my ptr91. I have a unicorn G3 heavy buffer I paid out the ass for, and tested it against the hk21 buffer that came in one of the kits. I set up two a2 stock assemblies so I could go back and forth easy and fast. I went back and forth several times, tried single, short bursts, long bursts...i can't tell a difference, it's on par with the G3 heavy! It's also definitely way better then the standard g3 buffer and my Bill Springfield modified buffer. Another plus is it doesn't speed up the rate of fire when I use the blue training ammo like the G3 heavy buffer does. I think I'm going to keep one of the 21 buffers in my 91 full time.
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/16/2024 10:32:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#5]
Good info, Heineken. I foolishly sold a G3 2-stage heavy buffer around 15 years ago for way too little.
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:45:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: The carry handle isn’t necessary on the 21/21e/23e. On the 249 and 240, the carry handle is part of the quick detach/attach barrel lockup, so it makes sense. On the 21/21e/23e its sole purpose is to carry the gun. I say skip it. Typically if BPP lists something in stock on their website, it’s in stock. I’d snag a set of reinforcement rails from BPP or HKP. You sold me. That and seeing what looks like lugs built into the shroud weldment that would be a minor PITA to add. Went ahead and ordered the rails as well. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/17/2024 10:05:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Heineken]
[#7]
I was split on the carry handle....spoke with Mike today, he has the parts in stock and it was only $250 with parts and labor to add to my build. He is able to modify the existing weldment vs having to use a new one. Carry handle definitely not needed, but for some reason I like the look especially with the clubfoot stock.
Also was able to find a new old stock FMP magazine adapter. I think I got all the accessories now...fingers crossed I'll be using them before Thanksgiving :) |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 10:27:27 PM EDT
[#8]
No huge updates. Spending the week with family in the mountains. Ordered a weldment kit. My flat, 50* NOS HK locking piece, and HK21E style cocking handle should all be at the house by the time I get home. I have a little demil work to do on the feed box and shroud and then welding starts. Waiting for a barrel too. Then I’m ready to roll.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 10:34:16 PM EDT
[#9]
I got my parts kit in today before work and I ordered the 1101 tripod with it. The tripod looks really good minus one of the back pads breaking off during delivery it looks like. I'll take pictures when I get home from work but is the pads something easily attainable and replaced or should I see about getting it switched for a different one?
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VA, USA
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Posted: 6/22/2024 9:12:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bmwguy]
[#10]
I got a ping from hkparts.net that the t-rail from Michael’s Machine is back in stock.
Can anyone comment as to this is the correct one to use for the hk-21 build? https://hkparts.net/rifle-smg-parts/mm-hk-21-7-62x51-308-factory-style-t-rail-set/ The reason i’m asking is the t-rail looks different from the factory reinforcement rail RTG is selling. https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK21E-HK23E-LEFT-REINFORCEMENT-RAIL-NEW-GERMAN-367p6061.htm |
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Posted: 6/22/2024 9:22:39 AM EDT
[#11]
I think that’s what most all of us are using but the 21’s had the “teardrop” or L-shaped rails.
I would like to find some old/cheap A3 rail sections to use. I think those would look correct. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/22/2024 9:55:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bmwguy: I got a ping from hkparts.net that the t-rail from Michael’s Machine is back in stock. Can anyone comment as to this is the correct one to use for the hk-21 build? https://hkparts.net/rifle-smg-parts/mm-hk-21-7-62x51-308-factory-style-t-rail-set/ The reason i’m asking is the t-rail looks different from the factory reinforcement rail RTG is selling. https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK21E-HK23E-LEFT-REINFORCEMENT-RAIL-NEW-GERMAN-367p6061.htm The RTG parts rail is for the 21E/23E series, not the 21. It will not work on the 21 without significant modification to make it look like the MM 21 rail. Specialized Tactical is going runs of 21 reinforcement rails and said they will do the original pattern in addition to the E upgrade pattern. https://www.hkpro.com/threads/hk21-fmp21-reinforcement-rails.576721/?post_id=4191751#post-4191751 |
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Posted: 6/22/2024 9:58:18 AM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 6/22/2024 9:59:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cms81586]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: The RTG parts rail is for the 21E/23E series, not the 21. It will not work on the 21 without significant modification to make it look like the MM 21 rail. Specialized Tactical is going runs of 21 reinforcement rails and said they will do the original pattern in addition to the E upgrade pattern. https://www.hkpro.com/threads/hk21-fmp21-reinforcement-rails.576721/?post_id=4191751#post-4191751 Beat me by mere minutes. In my defense…I’m making pancakes right now. |
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Posted: 6/22/2024 10:17:52 AM EDT
[#15]
I ordered a set from beltfed precision but haven’t received them yet. They are charging $175 for the t-shaped ones.
I am still going to try my hand at making some. I’ve got at least 2 of these things to build now. |
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Posted: 6/22/2024 6:31:15 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 6/22/2024 7:34:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Man that does look nice. Belongs on that rifle.
I've never figured out any good way of refurbishing textured plastic stocks like these. I hit one with glass beads a while back and it kinda cleaned it up but didn't really do much for all the scratches and bruises. I may try some solvents and/or heat gun on the really ugly one I have since it's headed for the trash can anyway. |
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Posted: 6/22/2024 7:36:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BASE: Man that does look nice. Belongs on that rifle. I've never figured out any good way of refurbishing textured plastic stocks like these. I hit one with glass beads a while back and it kinda cleaned it up but didn't really do much for all the scratches and bruises. I may try some solvents and/or heat gun on the really ugly one I have since it's headed for the trash can anyway. The grip was used from HK parts, I took a gamble because it was only $8. Its in decent shape but its glossy just from use and age. I was thinking about glass beading it to match the texture of the new stock a little better. Think it will work? |
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Posted: 6/22/2024 7:41:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BASE]
[#19]
I'm having a rough time getting my second kit sorted out. It came with a G3 buffer in it and it was beat to hell (like recoil related beating). I complained and they exchanged for another that looks like it was run over by a truck. The backplate is actually bent into a curved shape, and also stretched and distorted really badly. Kinda belled out at the front so it fits really loose.
  I feel like I'm probably turning into the customer from hell but I would rather have the first one back now. What do you guys think, call 'em up and go for round two? |
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Posted: 6/22/2024 7:44:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Type7SOT: The grip was used from HK parts, I took a gamble because it was only $8. Its in decent shape but its glossy just from use and age. I was thinking about glass beading it to match the texture of the new stock a little better. Think it will work? I had one of the glossier stocks I bought by accident a while back and bead blasting did help it. Knocked the shine off but didn't really rough it up. Hides the scratches better than the glossy finish. I'd give it a go, especially since you are only into it for $8. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/22/2024 7:46:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Type7SOT: The grip was used from HK parts, I took a gamble because it was only $8. Its in decent shape but its glossy just from use and age. I was thinking about glass beading it to match the texture of the new stock a little better. Think it will work? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Type7SOT: Originally Posted By BASE: Man that does look nice. Belongs on that rifle. I've never figured out any good way of refurbishing textured plastic stocks like these. I hit one with glass beads a while back and it kinda cleaned it up but didn't really do much for all the scratches and bruises. I may try some solvents and/or heat gun on the really ugly one I have since it's headed for the trash can anyway. The grip was used from HK parts, I took a gamble because it was only $8. Its in decent shape but its glossy just from use and age. I was thinking about glass beading it to match the texture of the new stock a little better. Think it will work? I’m very interested to see what everyone comes up with for refurbishing the plastic. I need to do that on a couple 11a1/21a1 trigger housings and stocks. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/22/2024 9:06:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Heineken]
[#22]
Had a buddy just send me a set of new old stock FMP furnature.
Also I am an accessory whore  
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Posted: 6/22/2024 10:13:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Heineken: Had a buddy just send me a set of new old stock FMP furnature. Also I am an accessory whore https://i.ibb.co/mHhV8HR/IMG-20240621-182611747-HDR.jpg What did the G3 magwell run you? I’d almost be interested in one. |
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Posted: 6/23/2024 7:50:28 AM EDT
[#24]
What would the turnkey cost be to have someone do this? Under 10k? Under 20?
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Posted: 6/23/2024 8:10:16 AM EDT
[#25]
I'd guess that it's an $8000 project if you are having someone else build it.
$1500 kit $4500 labor $1000 barrel $1000 (misc replacement parts like trunion, LP, bolt head, etc) |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2024 6:22:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: barbcue]
[#26]
Well, pulled the trigger and just ordered 2 kits from Atlantic Firearms now that they have them back in stock. Was holding out to see if they would get more matching numbers kits in, but with the rate these are selling didnt want to miss out and they couldnt confirm if they were getting more matching kits or not.. If they are in decent shape i wont care about the numbers.
So looks like i need at least the rear site weldments for now. Can anyone confirm if this is the weldment i need for the 1200 meter HK21 site ? https://hkparts.net/all-parts/hkp-93-91-33-53-g3-5-56-223-7-62x51-308-rear-sight-base-weldment/ Or should i go with the 21E upgraded weldment with the forward scope base ? https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK21E-HK23E-REAR-SIGHT-BASE-WITH-FORWARD-SCOPE-BASE-373p5838.htm OR.. Should i just go with option 1 and have a rail welded to the top ? (This seems like the way to go personally) Not really worried about keeping these projects *correct* any A1 or E upgrades etc i can do to them on the cheap i want to do. UPDATE: i went with option 1 BTW - RTG still has the original german made weldment for the rear site in stock for cheap money and their Black surplus grips are a bit cheaper than HK Parts. $5 https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK91-HK93-REAR-SIGHT-BASE-NEW-GERMAN-2p5781.htm |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2024 8:59:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barbcue: Well, pulled the trigger and just ordered 2 kits from Atlantic Firearms now that they have them back in stock. Was holding out to see if they would get more matching numbers kits in, but with the rate these are selling didnt want to miss out and they couldnt confirm if they were getting more matching kits or not.. If they are in decent shape i wont care about the numbers. So looks like i need at least the rear site weldments for now. Can anyone confirm if this is the weldment i need for the 1100 meter HK21 site ? https://hkparts.net/all-parts/hkp-93-91-33-53-g3-5-56-223-7-62x51-308-rear-sight-base-weldment/ Or should i go with the 21E upgraded weldment with the forward scope base ? https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK21E-HK23E-REAR-SIGHT-BASE-WITH-FORWARD-SCOPE-BASE-373p5838.htm OR.. Should i just go with option 1 and have a rail welded to the top ? (This seems like the way to go personally) Not really worried about keeping these projects *correct* any A1 or E upgrades etc i can do to them on the cheap i want to do. I’d have a rail welded. It’s the best option and allows you to use any number of contemporary optic mounts and optics at varying heights to suit your needs. The E sight base and scope tabs from RTG are not fully machined. If you want to go with an E optic mount, BPP has the base and front tab in stock and they are fully machined. But the E optic mount sucks compared to a 1913 rail. And it’s very expensive. Factory German E/MSG90 optic mounts are long gone. Michael’s Machines has a nice reproduction. https://hkparts.net/all-parts/mm-hk-21e-23e-msg90-7-62x51-308-5-56-223-railed-scope-mount/ You could also buy a B&T MSG90 rail, but it will need to be cut at the rear for the rear sight base and at the front to allow the carry handle. And it will be tall compared to a welded 1913 rail. https://hkparts.net/all-parts/b-t-hk-msg90-7-62x51-308-extended-swiss-mount/ |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2024 9:02:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: barbcue]
[#28]
Im going the route you suggest. i posted a link in my above post at the bottom to the actual HK German made rear site weldment that RTG has in stock for less than 20 bucks i ordered a pair.
Not sure how many he has in stock but i bet its far less than the amount of kits coming in. Next Paycheck is a pair of Clubfoot stocks. Then ill figure out the carry handles. I think i have wrecked my Bank Account enough for one pay period.
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2024 9:29:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barbcue: I posted a link in my above post at the bottom to the actual HK German made rear site weldment that RTG has in stock for less than 20 bucks i ordered a pair. Those are not final machined. They need to be milled to the correct dimensions to actually accept an E/MSG90 optic mount. BPP has them and his are fully machined. BPP E/MSG90 rear sight base and scope mount tabs. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2024 9:34:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: barbcue]
[#30]
You are saying the HK21 weldment not the (21E) from RTG is not finished ?
Im going with the original and will have a rail welded to the top (sorry for the confusion) This one here your saying is not finished ? https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK91-HK93-REAR-SIGHT-BASE-NEW-GERMAN-2p5781.htm Should i have gone with this one ? https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK-G3-HK33-REAR-SIGHT-BASE-NEW-IN-WHITE-p6307.htm This shit is getting confusing.. 
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2024 9:58:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barbcue: You are saying the HK21 weldment not the (21E) from RTG is not finished ? Im going with the original and will have a rail welded to the top (sorry for the confusion) This one here your saying is not finished ? https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK91-HK93-REAR-SIGHT-BASE-NEW-GERMAN-2p5781.htm Should i have gone with this one ? https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK-G3-HK33-REAR-SIGHT-BASE-NEW-IN-WHITE-p6307.htm This shit is getting confusing.. Sorry, the 21E is not fully finished. Looking at the new German rear sight base from RTG, it also looks like it needs some mill work. The new base from RTG:  Compare it to this from a demilled G3: 
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2024 10:01:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: barbcue]
[#32]
Copy That !
Sorry i didnt help, matters.. Thanks Josh ! Ill renew my membership here as soon as my Atlantic Kits show up and post pictures of their offerings the weekend after i receive them since i don't think anyone has posted one of these kits ordered from them yet ? Crossing fingers i get a pair of good ones.. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/23/2024 10:15:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: Sorry, the 21E is not fully finished. Looking at the new German rear sight base from RTG, it also looks like it needs some mill work. The new base from RTG: https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/catalog/hkk-206271_c_1748_detail.jpg Compare it to this from a demilled G3: https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/catalog/hkk-1427c_986_detail.jpg crap ill cancel my order tomorrow what about this offering ? https://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK-G3-HK33-REAR-SIGHT-BASE-NEW-IN-WHITE-p6307.htm |
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Posted: 6/25/2024 7:19:53 PM EDT
[#34]
If I'm wanting to switch this hk21 kit to a hk21E what parts would I need to switch out? From what I've read it's basically just a more reliable platform/sturdier build right?
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2024 7:37:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dirty_Robster: If I'm wanting to switch this hk21 kit to a hk21E what parts would I need to switch out? From what I've read it's basically just a more reliable platform/sturdier build right? Completely different guns. There is no simple parts swap. The feed mech is totally different. The receiver construction is totally different. The bolt head is different. The carrier is different. The autosear and autosear trip mechanics are different. The trigger housing is different. HK Pro: What's the main difference between HK21 & HK21E? |
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Posted: 6/25/2024 7:51:54 PM EDT
[#36]
Yeah, its kinda like saying how can I convert my AK to an AR lol. Just change every part!
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MP, USA
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Posted: 6/25/2024 8:00:47 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Type7SOT: Yeah, its kinda like saying how can I convert my AK to an AR lol. Just change every part! :) |
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USA
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Posted: 6/25/2024 10:28:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Heineken]
[#38]
Easier/doable "e" type upgrades:
- e type barrel hardware - e stock (clubfoot) - e style extended charging handle (can just get the extended style, vs changing out cocking tube support etc) - e type receiver reinforcements (vs original tear drop style) - 21e buffer. Need to also have cocking slot relocated to accommodate - carry handle. Need new weldment, or modify existing. - forward assist. More work with receiver, and have to add serrations to carrier. You are also losing the cheap/easy replacement of your carrier though. |
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Posted: 6/25/2024 11:10:12 PM EDT
[#39]
Determined this RTG flat is going to be too much work without spending hundreds on mandrels to get smooth carrier pass through. On to option B….PTR receiver.
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Posted: 6/26/2024 6:02:45 PM EDT
[#40]
The RTG flats are a bit of a disappointment. At least one member over at WG said his latest CETME flat wasn't all buggered up like the G3 flats they are shipping now so I ordered one to have a look.
Here's a pic of the trouble area (front of the rails) with my mandrel sitting on it:  And an old HK G3 receiver for comparison:  BTW: The BPP rails are shown in both of those pics, they just showed up today and look pretty decent. Seem to fit really well. |
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Posted: 6/26/2024 7:05:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BASE: The RTG flats are a bit of a disappointment. At least one member over at WG said his latest CETME flat wasn't all buggered up like the G3 flats they are shipping now so I ordered one to have a look. Here's a pic of the trouble area (front of the rails) with my mandrel sitting on it: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/196570/RTG_rails-3251400.jpg And an old HK G3 receiver for comparison: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/196570/HK_rails-3251401.jpg BTW: The BPP rails are shown in both of those pics, they just showed up today and look pretty decent. Seem to fit really well. Yeah…mine is unusable. I’m going to find another solution…. Either a PTR flat or a complete receiver. |
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Posted: 6/26/2024 7:55:12 PM EDT
[#42]
I’m holding out hope the cetme flat will be okay and then I can just cut off the funny mag well for this one.
I’m still going to try to get this one straightened out. I have an urge to build a G3K now and it needs a proper mag well. |
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Posted: 6/27/2024 12:37:24 AM EDT
[#43]
My schtick is that I know I can get this to work…I just don’t want to spend the money on the tools to do it right when I likely won’t build another ever again.
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USA
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Posted: 6/27/2024 8:49:01 PM EDT
[#44]
 BPP in PTR receiver for those who are wondering Fitment is excellent. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2024 5:54:27 AM EDT
[#45]
Any issues using a PTR receiver with a welded on top rail and the belt feed cuts ?
Any issues with serial numbers of other info stamped on the PTR receivers being in the wrong place ? |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2024 5:55:18 AM EDT
[#46]
Any issues using a PTR receiver with a welded on top rail and the belt feed cuts ?
Any issues with serial numbers of other info stamped on the PTR receivers being in the wrong place ? |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 8:44:26 AM EDT
[#47]
I've seen pics where people have slotted the welded on rails to show the s/n on them. I'm doing my best to not have to deal with that but it's looking better and better as I struggle with this RTG flat.
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USA
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Posted: 6/28/2024 1:43:36 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barbcue: Any issues using a PTR receiver with a welded on top rail and the belt feed cuts ? Any issues with serial numbers of other info stamped on the PTR receivers being in the wrong place ? PTR serial is uptop which means no funky receiver pull through stuff like Hk91 magwell serial numbers As far as serials if you are building and an individual you can get a slotted top rail (or slot your own rail with an endmill) If you are mfg as a 02 then you are remarking anyway and can work around a lot. |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 4:32:09 PM EDT
[#49]
So I got my cetme flat from RTG today and it looks better than the G3 flat but it's not perfect by any means. I'm thinking you would want to square these rails before using it as well so if you aren't up for that the PTR is probably the way to go.
I also got some of the A3 stock rails from RTG. I was wanting to see if making them into "correct style" reinforcement rails would be feasible and I think they would work just fine. They fit pretty damn good into the real G3 receivers. There is a groove running down them that isn't ideal and of course, the notches. I would bet that HK used the extrusions these were made from for the early 21's. 
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Posted: 6/28/2024 6:04:11 PM EDT
[#50]
Got the trunnion out. Is there any way to verify that this trunnion is servicable before completely assembling the gun?
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