Help me choose a rifle and load for deer season.

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Posted: 10/7/2009 8:57:45 PM EDT

My 3 options right now are...

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

VEPR K in 7.62x39. It's my only unfired gun in my safe. Mint but I feel it needs shot. I have a POSP 4x20 scope that I could use for it that is new as well. Dug around and found some Brown Bear 125 grain soft point cartridges in the basement. Imagine they would work. PROS > Larger bullet. CONS > No more safe queen. It's HEAVY, probably 10lbs or more.

MOSIN 91/30. Never shot this one and need to clean it up and take it to the range to see how well it shoots. Bore is in very good shape (only part of the gun I've cleaned). I could scout scope it with a 4x scope. PROS > Cheap, don't care if it gets beat up. Big cartridge and even though it's heavy, the length combined with the factory sling would even the weight out. CONS > I gotta hurry and buy a scout scope and mount. I can't turn the safety off/on without making noise and this will only worsen with cold hands when I've spotted something to shoot.

I don't plan on taking shots over 150 yards.

Posted: 10/7/2009 9:02:27 PM EDT

[#1]

of those I'd go with the Mosin.

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:31:33 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
of those I'd go with the Mosin.

Reason and any particular load for it? Light or heavy bullet? I believe the only suitable ones they sell are soft points, but I haven't seen anything else except the 203 grainers. I did read somewhere that the M44's like a heavier bullet while the 91/30's with the longer barrel prefer something a little lighter that'll fly a bit faster?

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:36:07 AM EDT

[#3]

I bought some 180gr Sellier and Bellot (sp?) soft points. They grouped fairly well at 100yd. I mulled over buying a scope and mount for the Mosin, you gotta shell out close to $80 for a good one, then the scope. I'm going to take it out with irons and see if I can get anything. I took my AR w/ ACOG out last year and I won't hesitate to do it again. I've never actually killed a deer, just started hunting last year.

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:37:27 AM EDT

[#4]

For any shot at 100 yards or less that Mosin would be gravy.

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:45:45 AM EDT

[#5]

You need to get that Mosin-Nagant cleaned up and over to the gun club to find out what load is most accurate. Do you have reloading equipment? Be sure to have the bore checked for actual bore size, most Mosin-Nagants run to .311 rather than .308.

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:48:49 AM EDT

[#6]

Mosin

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:51:50 AM EDT

[#7]

5" off the bench?

What kind of craptastic ammo are you using?

What does the Remington ammo do? 5"? Get better ammo if that is all it will do.

As far as the others, unless you can get hunting ammo and can shoot them better than 3" off the bench, leave them home.

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:52:19 AM EDT

[#8]

7.62x39 is a fine brush cartridge. Under 150 is good to go on whitetail, but it's obviously best in close.

I've known plenty of people to kill deer with a .223 but if you're new to deer hunting it's probably better to go more substantial. Unlike combat, you're not looking to hammer your target repeatedly. I don't consider exsanguination from a single shot ideal in a situation where you're firing on enemy. But in hunting, that is frequently the means of death. You want to destroy as little meat as possible, which usually means a single shot through the ribs. In the case you fail to do sufficient damage to the heart and lungs, the deer will bleed out faster with a larger cartridge. This is more fair to the animal, and increases your likelihood of recovery if it runs after the shot.

On balance, I think the Mosin is your most practical option. Solid deer cartridge at all ranges. I would guess the average deer rifle isn't much better than a 3MOA weapon. Get it out to the range with decent HPs/SPs, and if you're holding under 5" at 100 yards, that'll do, just know your and the rifle's limitations.

If you go with a rifle you don't have much trigger time on, practice. I shoot an /06 and get trigger time with CMP surplus switching to the fancy-pants ammo a couple weeks before the season.

Good luck. Awaiting AAR.

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:53:20 AM EDT

[#9]

Of the three, Mosin. Irons will work fine for 150 yards and less, and x54r won't drop as much as 7.62x39.

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:55:28 AM EDT

[#10]

Is it legal to hunt deer with .223 in MO ?

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:58:02 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

Posted: 10/8/2009 10:59:39 AM EDT

[#12]

Further thoughts....

the Brown Bear 125gr soft points for the x39 will probably work, but again, not that well. They're probably bi-metal jackets which tend to curtail expansion a lot. I wouldn't use them if I had other options.

Also, DO NOT use military surplus or FMJ for hunting. Accuracy with such ammunition is mediocre and the terminal performance is shitty.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:04:16 AM EDT

[#13]

Mosin Nagant, fuck the scope, 150 yards on a deer doesn't warrant a scope unless your older and your eyes are shot.
Scope mounts for Mosin Nagants suck unless you invest in some quality mounts. Also a PITA is the straight bolt and you have to either scout scope it (not ideal) or hack off and reweld a new bent bolt or have it sent away for it to be thinned, stretched and bent. Retarded if you ask me.

Privi Partizan x54R 180gr SP ammo is available online, affordable and it will work just fine. Its also non-corrosive.
With the supplied iron sights on your mosin nagant you should be able to hold minute of deer vitals out to 150 yards easily unless you've got personal limitations.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:08:26 AM EDT

[#14]

Here is 203gr Soft Point ammo for your mosin nagant. $8.25 per 20rd box. Doesn't get much more affordable than that for .30cal Soft Point "hunting" ammo.

Clicky here to go to AIM surplus, a site sponsor

eta pic

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:08:50 AM EDT

[#15]

If you could get a scout mount and scope on the Mosin, I'd say that is the one. Otherwise, the VEPR, and keep your shots 100yds or less and you will have meat on the table.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:10:42 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:14:22 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
of those I'd go with the Mosin.

+1

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:15:00 AM EDT

[#18]

As Harry Callaghan said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

Whatever rifle you use, get it sighted in, then step away from the bench and don't go back. The bench is the debbil!
Determine, by actual shooting, at what distance you can guarantee a hit on an 8-inch circle from standing, sitting, kneeling, prone). If you determine that 50 yards is your maximum guaranteed distance from standing position, and you spot a deer at 75 yards, then do not shoot at it from standing, OK? Once you are out in the field, you need to really, really know your maximum distances from field positions. If there is any doubt in your mind, get into a steadier position. If there is still doubt in your mind, pass on the shot. You don't need a deer that badly.

If you are going to put a scope on your rifle, use low rings, not high. Practice using the scope even at close range (like 25 yards). The trick is to keep both eyes open. Look at the target with both eyes open, then raise the rifle up until the scope is between your eye and the target. Common mistake is to lower your head to the rifle. Instead, place the rifle an inch higher on your shoulder.
If you use high rings, then you will not get a proper cheek weld, and it will be much harder to hit (and much easier to miss) at longer distances.

I'm a fan of Barnes bullets (I use Cor-Bon DPX). They seem to be a good do-everything bullet: immediate expansion and serious penetration. But, people were killing deer for centuries before Barnes bullets were invented. Just don't use FMJ bullets, and don't use "varmint" bullets, and you should be GTG.

Good luck. Hope to see your venison dinner pic soon.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:15:47 AM EDT

[#19]

I'd suggest buying a good quality hunting rifle or going with the Mosin/Nagant 7.62x54R.

If you really want to use the AR, go with a heavy-for-caliber hunting type bullet, say 68 grains +/- a couple. Nosler Ballistic tip, Partition, or Barnes TSX bullets come to mind.

For the Mosin, any softpoint bullet from 140 to 210 grains will be fine. I'd go toward the lighter end just because it'll shoot flatter.

No need for a scope out to 150 yards. Just get some practice in.

Obviously it's not a Mosin but my mil-spec M14 and I can hit steel Rams out to 500 meters (547 yards) with iron sights, prone, with no rest about 70% of the time. Even as crappy as the sights are on a Mosin, you shouldn't have a problem getting hits on the vitals of a deer out to 200 yards with some practice, in a sitting or kneeling position.

And if you have time before your hunt, go to an Appleseed, www.appleseedinfo.org. There you'll learn how to shoot with Iron sights from field positions to be effective out to 500 yards. It only costs $70 for men and two days of your time, at a range near you.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:17:32 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

Agree.

I have used my 223 AR on NE MO whitetails and it performed just fine.

I prefer the Winchester WereWolf Killers (Ballistic SilverTips).

As mentioned, shot placement is key.

As for you shooting 5" at 100 yards on a bench, I would say go back and try some new ammo.

At 100 yards 1-2" groups from a bench is satisfactory.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:23:07 AM EDT

[#21]

I don't trust eastern europe "hunting" bullets because I have seen them fail to expand.

Federal sells 60 grain Nosler Partitions and 64 grain softpoints. Winchester sells 64 grain PPs. Any of these are proven deer killers.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:25:09 AM EDT

[#22]

"It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being."

Of couse the reverse of that is true as well....

Many of us don't trust a 5.56/223 AR15 for home defense and won't use it to hunt anything larger than varmints.

Home defense means 308 Winchester...M14, FAL, or HK91.

....or 6.8 SPC or larger if you must run through an AR.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:26:25 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

Agree.

I have used my 223 AR on NE MO whitetails and it performed just fine.
I prefer the Winchester WereWolf Killers (Ballistic SilverTips).

As mentioned, shot placement is key.
As for you shooting 5" at 100 yards on a bench, I would say go back and try some new ammo.
At 100 yards 1-2" groups from a bench is satisfactory.

The groups may have nothing to do with ammo...

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:28:51 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

A couple of points.

First of all, I didn't say 223 wouldn't do it.

Second, 223 works for combat because you pretty much plan on shooting felons, criminals, terrorists, and other assorted fuckheads several times to be sure you got the job done. For hunting, the ethical thing to do is use one precise shot to do the job. 223 is capable of this, but allows the shooter less room for error.

Since for many on this forum it's either mil-spec or it's crap, I'll point out that when the military wants to shoot a terrorist and get a precise, one shot kill, they tend to use 308 or 50 BMG.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:30:12 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Of couse the reverse of that is true as well....

Many of us don't trust a 5.56/223 AR15 for home defense and won't use it to hunt anything larger than varmints.

Home defense means 308 Winchester...M14, FAL, or HK91.

....or 6.8 SPC or larger if you must run through an AR.

-David
Edgewood, NM

When a soldier comes home from Iraq, where he carried an M16 and used it effectively against the enemy, and sticks to AR15's for home defense, I think that speaks well for the rifle's effectiveness.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:32:19 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Of couse the reverse of that is true as well....

Many of us don't trust a 5.56/223 AR15 for home defense and won't use it to hunt anything larger than varmints.

Home defense means 308 Winchester...M14, FAL, or HK91.

....or 6.8 SPC or larger if you must run through an AR.

-David
Edgewood, NM

When a soldier comes home from Iraq, where he carried an M16 and used it effectively against the enemy, and sticks to AR15's for home defense, I think that speaks well for the rifle's effectiveness.

Or speaks of someone using what they're familiar with. Mil-spec isn't always best-spec. Evaluate your needs and skills, then choose accordingly.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:34:31 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

Fine to 200 yds and further? Uh, not for me. I prefer my deer to be DRT. Don't feel like tracking it through the brush at dark-thirty following a near non-existent blood trail, which I have had to do on occasion when a buddy wanted to try a .223 on deer. If the buck of a lifetime walked out at 175 yds with a 5-10mph crosswind blowing, right at dark into a field surrounded by mesquite brush you could barely walk through, would you be comfortable with a .223? I for one would not. Not to mention there is a reason .223's are banned for deer hunting in many states.

YMMV

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:35:55 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Is it legal to hunt deer with .223 in MO ?

Yes––anything centerfire.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:37:35 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

A couple of points.

First of all, I didn't say 223 wouldn't do it.

Second, 223 works for combat because you pretty much plan on shooting felons, criminals, terrorists, and other assorted fuckheads several times to be sure you got the job done. For hunting, the ethical thing to do is use one precise shot to do the job. 223 is capable of this, but allows the shooter less room for error.

Since for many on this forum it's either mil-spec or it's crap, I'll point out that when the military wants to shoot a terrorist and get a precise, one shot kill, they tend to use 308 or 50 BMG.

So, this rifle is designed to shoot the same person repeatedly to get a kill?

The use of .308 has much more to do with its long range capability, and not the killing effectiveness of the 5.56. The .50 BMG, again, is for longer range and harder targets.

Please stop spreading incorrect information. The .223 will kill a deer just fine. Shot placement is key with ANY caliber. If you make a bad shot with a .308, it isn't going to kill any better than a bad shot from a .223.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:38:17 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Is it legal to hunt deer with .223 in MO ?

Yes

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:40:26 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

Agree.

I have used my 223 AR on NE MO whitetails and it performed just fine.

I prefer the Winchester WereWolf Killers (Ballistic SilverTips).

As mentioned, shot placement is key.

As for you shooting 5" at 100 yards on a bench, I would say go back and try some new ammo.

At 100 yards 1-2" groups from a bench is satisfactory.

The groups may have nothing to do with ammo...

and then again they may.

Won't know unless he tries.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:40:40 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Of couse the reverse of that is true as well....

Many of us don't trust a 5.56/223 AR15 for home defense and won't use it to hunt anything larger than varmints.

Home defense means 308 Winchester...M14, FAL, or HK91.

....or 6.8 SPC or larger if you must run through an AR.

-David
Edgewood, NM

When a soldier comes home from Iraq, where he carried an M16 and used it effectively against the enemy, and sticks to AR15's for home defense, I think that speaks well for the rifle's effectiveness.

Or speaks of someone using what they're familiar with. Mil-spec isn't always best-spec. Evaluate your needs and skills, then choose accordingly.

I'm talking about people who are familiar with, and own, all sorts of rifles. AR10's, AK47's, and on down the line. Familiarity has nothing to do with it. He knows that the .223 works very well for self-defense because he's seen it first hand. He doesn't need internet experts to teach him.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:42:44 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

Fine to 200 yds and further? Uh, not for me. I prefer my deer to be DRT. Don't feel like tracking it through the brush at dark-thirty following a near non-existent blood trail, which I have had to do on occasion when a buddy wanted to try a .223 on deer. If the buck of a lifetime walked out at 175 yds with a 5-10mph crosswind blowing, right at dark into a field surrounded by mesquite brush you could barely walk through, would you be comfortable with a .223? I for one would not. Not to mention there is a reason .223's are banned for deer hunting in many states.

YMMV

Absolutely, I'd be comfortable with .223. I've hunted with it, and made plenty of clean kills because I place my shot properly.

Let's use your example of tracking in the dark, in deep brush, following a non-existent blood trail... I've done that MANY MANY times, myself. The only difference is that the deer were shot with .300 win. or 7mm Magnum. My cousin uses the .300, and a good friend uses 7mm mag. They both suck at shot placement.

So... your argument is moot.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:56:51 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

A couple of points.

First of all, I didn't say 223 wouldn't do it.

Second, 223 works for combat because you pretty much plan on shooting felons, criminals, terrorists, and other assorted fuckheads several times to be sure you got the job done. For hunting, the ethical thing to do is use one precise shot to do the job. 223 is capable of this, but allows the shooter less room for error.

Since for many on this forum it's either mil-spec or it's crap, I'll point out that when the military wants to shoot a terrorist and get a precise, one shot kill, they tend to use 308 or 50 BMG.

So, this rifle is designed to shoot the same person repeatedly to get a kill?

http://www.dogfightink.com/SPR.jpg

The use of .308 has much more to do with its long range capability, and not the killing effectiveness of the 5.56. The .50 BMG, again, is for longer range and harder targets.

Please stop spreading incorrect information. The .223 will kill a deer just fine. Shot placement is key with ANY caliber. If you make a bad shot with a .308, it isn't going to kill any better than a bad shot from a .223.

Naturally, shot placement is critical. A 22 short will kill a deer if the shot placement is good enough.

The point is that with 223, shot placement is extremely critical. There are ethical shots you can take 30-06, for example, that cannot be taken with 223. The most common example I can think of is a shot where you need to penetrate a shoulder from the front to reach the vitals. I would never trust a 223 to do that, whereas a 308, 30-06, 270, or 7mm magnum would.

223 was chosen by the military for several reasons; it's performance was not the main one. It was chiefly chosen for its lightweight.

If you are wanting to measure cartridge's game effectiveness based solely on its ability to DRT a deer, the simple physics of the situation says that 223 is one of the lesser cartridges for this task.

I do not advocate that it should not be used for deer or that using it as such should be illegal. I do advocate that people educate themselves on the limitations of 223 in hunting deer and make appropriate decisions on whether to shoot or not based on that knowledge.

Some people are older, or injured, or have trouble with heavy recoiling rifles; a 223 gives them an option that might not otherwise have. Some poeple just like carrying a lighter gun or are not fond of recoil. This is all valid and fine, but it also requires the hunter in question to be responsible about the shots he takes.

Posted: 10/8/2009 11:59:33 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Of couse the reverse of that is true as well....

Many of us don't trust a 5.56/223 AR15 for home defense and won't use it to hunt anything larger than varmints.

Home defense means 308 Winchester...M14, FAL, or HK91.

....or 6.8 SPC or larger if you must run through an AR.

-David
Edgewood, NM

When a soldier comes home from Iraq, where he carried an M16 and used it effectively against the enemy, and sticks to AR15's for home defense, I think that speaks well for the rifle's effectiveness.

Or speaks of someone using what they're familiar with. Mil-spec isn't always best-spec. Evaluate your needs and skills, then choose accordingly.

I'm talking about people who are familiar with, and own, all sorts of rifles. AR10's, AK47's, and on down the line. Familiarity has nothing to do with it. He knows that the .223 works very well for self-defense because he's seen it first hand. He doesn't need internet experts to teach him.

I've never been in combat, but it ain't my first rodeo hunting, either. I've seen up close and personal how different cartridges work on deer.

223 does work. It does not work as well as heavier calibers. That is a fact. The shooter choosing to use 223 should know the limitations of his cartridge. 223 is not magic because the .mil uses it. It fits their needs. As a hunter, evaluate what fits your needs. That evaluation might end with you using 223, it may not.

Posted: 10/8/2009 12:02:16 PM EDT

[#36]

I'd compromise with the VEPR but buy some quality soft points. They aren't hard to find in x39.

Posted: 10/8/2009 12:05:23 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

AR15. RRA lower with 2 stage trigger, RRA heavy barrel 16" flat top upper 1/9 with a DPMS rear sight. With open sights I can keep it in 5" at 100yds on a bench. I also have a 4x14x40 scope that I can fit on it with tall rings that might allow me to retain the open sites for something within 50 yards or use the scope for a shot up to 200 yards. Reason for the powerful scope is since it's a smaller round I want to know that the bullet's going to hit where I'm aimin. Used a 55 grain corelokt bullet with good results. Would like to step it up to 60-62 grain range.. PROS > I'm familiar with this gun and it's a shooter. CONS > guy I hunt with thinks it's too small to kill a large (200lb) MO deer.

1) I would not hunt with Core lokt bullets. They're OK for the money, but I've found them to have poor terminal performance and if you use the AR, you're going to need that terminal performance. Use Barnes X-bullets, Winchester 64gr power point, or Federals loaded with Speer Bear Claws.

2) 200 lbs is a big assed deer and making an ethical kill shot with 223 will be challenging. The range will have to be short and you'll have to have damned good bullet placement.

3) Don't hunt with Core Lokt bullets.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people trust the .223 for self defense, but don't trust it to kill a Whitetail deer that weighs the same as a human being.

.223 will kill a 200lb Whitetail just fine out to 200yds and further. You're not likely to shoot past that distance anyway. Proper shot placement is vital, no matter what caliber you're using.

It sounds like you'll be best served with the AR15 since you are familiar with it and are more likely to make an accurate shot. Mount your scope, zero it with some good hunting loads, and you'll be fine.

A couple of points.

First of all, I didn't say 223 wouldn't do it.

Second, 223 works for combat because you pretty much plan on shooting felons, criminals, terrorists, and other assorted fuckheads several times to be sure you got the job done. For hunting, the ethical thing to do is use one precise shot to do the job. 223 is capable of this, but allows the shooter less room for error.

Since for many on this forum it's either mil-spec or it's crap, I'll point out that when the military wants to shoot a terrorist and get a precise, one shot kill, they tend to use 308 or 50 BMG.

So, this rifle is designed to shoot the same person repeatedly to get a kill?

http://www.dogfightink.com/SPR.jpg

The use of .308 has much more to do with its long range capability, and not the killing effectiveness of the 5.56. The .50 BMG, again, is for longer range and harder targets.

Please stop spreading incorrect information. The .223 will kill a deer just fine. Shot placement is key with ANY caliber. If you make a bad shot with a .308, it isn't going to kill any better than a bad shot from a .223.

Not with my 300WSM

All you gotta do is hit center mass and it liquifies the internals. Makes em real easy to gut

Posted: 10/8/2009 12:07:23 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Of couse the reverse of that is true as well....

Many of us don't trust a 5.56/223 AR15 for home defense and won't use it to hunt anything larger than varmints.

Home defense means 308 Winchester...M14, FAL, or HK91.

....or 6.8 SPC or larger if you must run through an AR.

-David

Edgewood, NM

When a soldier comes home from Iraq, where he carried an M16 and used it effectively against the enemy, and sticks to AR15's for home defense, I think that speaks well for the rifle's effectiveness.

Or speaks of someone using what they're familiar with. Mil-spec isn't always best-spec. Evaluate your needs and skills, then choose accordingly.

I'm talking about people who are familiar with, and own, all sorts of rifles. AR10's, AK47's, and on down the line. Familiarity has nothing to do with it. He knows that the .223 works very well for self-defense because he's seen it first hand. He doesn't need internet experts to teach him.

I've never been in combat, but it ain't my first rodeo hunting, either. I've seen up close and personal how different cartridges work on deer.

223 does work. It does not work as well as heavier calibers. That is a fact. The shooter choosing to use 223 should know the limitations of his cartridge. 223 is not magic because the .mil uses it. It fits their needs. As a hunter, evaluate what fits your needs. That evaluation might end with you using 223, it may not.

With this logic every hunter should be using a .577 Nitro.

The 223 will kill someone, or a deer just as dead as any other caliber. Dead is Dead.

As several have said. Shot placement is key.

Using the proper HUNTING round is also key.

FMJ is not the best choice although it will do the job (also illegal in several states).

Posted: 10/8/2009 12:21:07 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Of couse the reverse of that is true as well....

Many of us don't trust a 5.56/223 AR15 for home defense and won't use it to hunt anything larger than varmints.

Home defense means 308 Winchester...M14, FAL, or HK91.

....or 6.8 SPC or larger if you must run through an AR.

-David
Edgewood, NM

When a soldier comes home from Iraq, where he carried an M16 and used it effectively against the enemy, and sticks to AR15's for home defense, I think that speaks well for the rifle's effectiveness.

That is anecdotal and doesn't mean squat. Typical garbage of using the current political climate to support one's opinion. And I'll think you'll find that the guys that have A LOT of contact with the enemy prefer more knock down than a 223 provides.

Yes, 223 can kill deer. Yes, a 22 LR can kill deer. But neither are a top-tier choice for hunting big game.

Do note that the gentleman that originated this thread said he was shooting FIVE INCH groups from the BENCH with an RRA AR15. FIVE MOA GROUPS, from a BENCH will likely translate into 10 MOA or larger groups in a hunting situation. With that sort of accuracy, this fellow needs a larger caliber (i.e. 270 WIN, 308, 7.62x54R, 30-06, etc, etc) to be able to reliably get kills out to 100 yards. He does not yet have the experience to thread the needle with a 223 and hit them exactly in the vitals everytime...so he needs a larger bullet to make that vital zone a little bigger.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Posted: 10/8/2009 12:28:30 PM EDT

[#40]

VEPR K in 7.62x39:

With commercial Nosler Ballistic Tip ammo.

Posted: 10/8/2009 1:06:08 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Of couse the reverse of that is true as well....

Many of us don't trust a 5.56/223 AR15 for home defense and won't use it to hunt anything larger than varmints.

Home defense means 308 Winchester...M14, FAL, or HK91.

....or 6.8 SPC or larger if you must run through an AR.

-David
Edgewood, NM

When a soldier comes home from Iraq, where he carried an M16 and used it effectively against the enemy, and sticks to AR15's for home defense, I think that speaks well for the rifle's effectiveness.

Or speaks of someone using what they're familiar with. Mil-spec isn't always best-spec. Evaluate your needs and skills, then choose accordingly.

I'm talking about people who are familiar with, and own, all sorts of rifles. AR10's, AK47's, and on down the line. Familiarity has nothing to do with it. He knows that the .223 works very well for self-defense because he's seen it first hand. He doesn't need internet experts to teach him.

I've never been in combat, but it ain't my first rodeo hunting, either. I've seen up close and personal how different cartridges work on deer.

223 does work. It does not work as well as heavier calibers. That is a fact. The shooter choosing to use 223 should know the limitations of his cartridge. 223 is not magic because the .mil uses it. It fits their needs. As a hunter, evaluate what fits your needs. That evaluation might end with you using 223, it may not.

With this logic every hunter should be using a .577 Nitro.

The 223 will kill someone, or a deer just as dead as any other caliber. Dead is Dead.

As several have said. Shot placement is key.
Using the proper HUNTING round is also key.
FMJ is not the best choice although it will do the job (also illegal in several states).

By your logic, everyone should be using 22 hornet since dead is dead

You'll note that I've consistently said two things. 1) 223 will work. 2) Know the limitations of whatever cartridge you select.

223 is less capable than 300 Win Mag for killing large game. That's simple physics. 223 will do the job just fine if the hunter is patient and waits for a shot where 223 can reliably penetrate to hit vitals. There are shots that can be made with 300 Win Mag that are ethical, good shots that cannot be made with 223. That is also a fact that simple physics bears out. Again, know your own limitations, know your cartridge's abilities, and proceed from there.

Posted: 10/8/2009 1:44:56 PM EDT

[#42]