Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: O.K. Calm down, take a deep breath and just relax. At no time did i ever say that BJJ was useless, I have much respect for the style. I actually think that BJJ is probably the best ground fighting style out there, what I do have a problem with is all the people who think that all korean styles do fancy high kicks and that the UFC is real! I am proud to say that the style I teach is a korean self defense based style. I will never kick anyone above the waist, our style has been taught to many who have actually used it in real world altercations and guess what, it works! Mixture between combat (non sport) Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido, we have also thrown in a few other things weve picked up! Like some of the excellent variations in the elbow strikes from Krav-Maga! The UFC is a controlled fight in a ring with rules, there is a time limit and judges. This automatically gives any ground fighter the advantage over someone who trains in non-sport self defense. In a sparring match could i be beaten by a BJJ practitioner? SURE if they got me on the ground wich is not impossible by any means, I'm not billy bad a##. Take that same scenario to the street with my life in danger, I will eye guage, I will use groin shots and I now have the will to survive instinct kicking in...........    Now we have a fair arena, no rules....refs.....time limits...ect.                  I will win this fight against anyone, because thier is no other option. I dont mean to sound kocky here but I will not be defeated by any man when it comes to my life. I have actually had to fight for my life on several occasions and can say that my training has saved me! have you? Oh, and this is a really good post by the way... but you may not realize you are making my point for me. BJJ scraps are a way of life in Rio, go there some time... or look it up. It is the most finely crafted fighting art that I know of, and believe me I would QUICKLY adandon BJJ if I thought something was more effective. All I keep finding, however, are new things like Krav Maga, and the newley refined Sambo that basically combine old proven things. You are incorrect however saying that timed limits gives an advantage to BJJ, in fact, they were imposed to take the advantage away from BJJ. I have had fights last 10 minuets, some I have trained with over an hour. Time limits, well... I have already commented on this BTW. However, good post for the most part... thanks. Taking away time limits is nothing compared to what else the UFC has done. You can't headbutt or directly attack the knees. This gives BJJ guys a huge advantage. Try to grapple and get into the clinch with someone that can headbutt you... you will find your takedowns will be much harder to get. In additon, not being able to attack the knees gives BJJ guys a greater ability to rush in for the clinch.... another thing that makes UFC and "BJJ sport fighting" unlike real life

I will save you all a few more pages, you cannot change a Gracie-Worshippers opinion on BJJ, its futile.  Logic doesn't matter the Gracies and Machados are gods to them

I don't mind at all.... its only going to get him hurt when he comes across a situation he is totally unprepared for.

Thumper,

I dont understand your logic, Do you actually beleive that BJJ is the only real self defense style in the world that works! That what it sounds like to me, and in todays world with so many hundreds of MMA styles out there how could you know? You mentioned in an earlier post about TKD practitioners being brain washed, hmmmmmmmmmmm maybe you ment yourself.

I asked you if you ever had to use your skills to defend your life, and your answer was that life in Rio is hard. I'll be a little clearer this time have YOU personally ever used BJJ in a real life or death altercation, where YOUR attacker was trying to kill you!!!!!!

Quoted: You're hilarious... I wish I could be there for your next "real life scuff" (of which you have had many ) to see you get shanked in the ribs. I would fall over laughing. As for shooting my goo in 3 seconds... I took care of your mom for a good hour last night.... soooo Man you are a waste of my time and a waste of bandwith. Your posts don't help anyone make an informed decision about martial arts or trainning; they just show how much you like to suck the Gracies' dicks and how you've been brainwashed into thinking your flabby ass has a chance against someone who will "allow you" to take them to the ground. Good luck. P.S. I don't own a copy of the matrix... can I borrow yours

Canceling my subscription to this thread, I think we all have tried to have an intelligent conversation.

I don’t have time for belligerence...  go play w/your ninja master friends, and leave my mom out of it little man.

My Philipino friend has studies Serrada Escrima for 16 years now. He started when he was 16, his uncle is an instructor. Whenever I can I work out with him and learn. Everything that you can do with two rattan sticks can be applied to knives, swords, and open hands. It is truly a very applicable system. I still study Bunjikan Taijitsu and I add the Escrima in, it makes for a very interesting mix. Hapkido is real applicable as well but it depends upon the instructor/style.

Quoted: My Philipino friend has studies Serrada Escrima for 16 years now. He started when he was 16, his uncle is an instructor. Whenever I can I work out with him and learn. Everything that you can do with two rattan sticks can be applied to knives, swords, and open hands. It is truly a very applicable system. I still study Bunjikan Taijitsu and I add the Escrima in, it makes for a very interesting mix. Hapkido is real applicable as well but it depends upon the instructor/style.

Mixing a little kali into your MMA routine is a wise tactic for the street.

Thumper is the one who started talking about goo.... but it was me that started the belligerence .

I will continue to train.... and continue to learn. However, Thumper will only continue to be narrow-minded and fail to realize that BJJ is not the answer to every situation. All styles have their strong points... and all have their flaws. The process of mastering your art is minimizing those flaws, and capitalizing on its strengths; constant and continuous training is what makes that possible.

Quoted: Taking away time limits is nothing compared to what else the UFC has done. You can't headbutt or directly attack the knees. This gives BJJ guys a huge advantage. Try to grapple and get into the clinch with someone that can headbutt you... you will find your takedowns will be much harder to get. In additon, not being able to attack the knees gives BJJ guys a greater ability to rush in for the clinch.... another thing that makes UFC and "BJJ sport fighting" unlike real life

You notice by the way, that Thumper chose to not address the points I made above.... because he has no answer for them. BJJ has no weaknesses

you'll also notice in the early UFC's the pad was a lot thicker.  This is an advantage the BJJ guys lost, but when you turn the argument to street fighting, you realize that there's no pad at all in a parking lot

you'll also notice in the early UFC's the pad was a lot thicker.  This is an advantage the BJJ guys lost, but when you turn the argument to street fighting, you realize that there's no pad at all in a parking lot.

here's some UFC fouls (none of the following are legal):

Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.

I don't see how grapplers lost out when these rules were enacted.  Time limits and the ref standing things back up did, but the rest of these?  A lot of these rules limit takedown defenses and the amount of damage you can do to a grounded opponent or someone who's guard you're in.

Abandon all the gun magazine ad styles. Take your local yellow pages and go watch a class at the schools you think you might be interested in taking from. The individual instructor and the students in that school are the most critical factor in regards to how good your training will be. Don't paint yourself into a corner by being drawn in by name alone.

Quoted: Abandon all the gun magazine ad styles. Take your local yellow pages and go watch a class at the schools you think you might be interested in taking from. The individual instructor and the students in that school are the most critical factor in regards to how good your training will be. Don't paint yourself into a corner by being drawn in by name alone.

must have said that a dozen times in the last 9 pages...maybe people will start to catch on.

Glad to see this thread back on topic, so what types of schools do you have to choose from?

Have you checked any out yet?

Stay away from the ones with all the trophies if your looking for self defense?

How much do they charge?

Do they have contracts or belt testing fee's?

There are alot of people here willing to give you some advice, some even have thier own schoolsWe need input!

Quoted: must have said that a dozen times in the last 9 pages...maybe people will start to catch on.

LOL, sorry, couldn't handle reading past page one.

Quoted: Quoted: must have said that a dozen times in the last 9 pages...maybe people will start to catch on. LOL, sorry, couldn't handle reading past page one.

No, no, glad you came up with it on your own.

I was not about to read ALL the posts so forgive me if it's been mentioned.
I'm into Korean Hap Ki Do.
It's very effective, very brutal, and can be soft when needed.
It inolves circular motions, kicks which are mostly low and devastating but some high also, fist, elbow and palm strikes,
arm bars, joint locks, twists and throws. I know I"m gonna get some shit for this but most Tai Kwon Do guys will not spar with the HKD guys because the HKD guy will just wait for the hollywood kick or bar room punch and toss his opponent on the floor and put him into a positon where he has the option of a surrender or a broken limb, and all this without the inability of fighting multiple opponents like most grappling forms have. In my opinion it is the most effective martial arts form around, although time consuming to learn.

Quoted: Stay away from all formal MA with belts like TKD, Karate, Akido, Judo, Kung Fu (including JKD) etc.  Although each has a few small things that can help you overall they are a waste of time and money.  I have a Black Belt in TKD from when I was a kid.  I have prettier kicks and I learned TKD sucks as a fighting style... thats what it was good for.  Did it for 5+ years.

Then you didn't do it long enough.  There's more to TKD than you seem to know.  If you've watched the Koreans fight you might know what I'm talking about.

Quoted: I was not about to read ALL the posts so forgive me if it's been mentioned. I'm into Korean Hap Ki Do. It's very effective, very brutal, and can be soft when needed. It inolves circular motions, kicks which are mostly low and devastating but some high also, fist, elbow and palm strikes, arm bars, joint locks, twists and throws. I know I"m gonna get some shit for this but most Tai Kwon Do guys will not spar with the HKD guys because the HKD guy will just wait for the hollywood kick or bar room punch and toss his opponent on the floor and put him into a positon where he has the option of a surrender or a broken limb, and all this without the inability of fighting multiple opponents like most grappling forms have. In my opinion it is the most effective martial arts form around, although time consuming to learn.

+1 on this.  However I will add that in TKD sparring, depending on the school, that take downs are used in non olympic sparring.  Pretty much most moves are good to go actually.  Kicks tend to be a waist of energy while sparring unless you are very fast.  So most high level BBs will stick with hand techniques and takedowns.  

It's funny when I read through many of the post that we all have our set opinion on an art.  The biggest problem is that most of these arts have been bastardized to the point where some of them are as effective as another.  Let's face it, an art that is practiced for MANY years such as the Koreans, Chinesse, etc. is very very effective.  Because this is what they do for a living they know it inside and out, they are conditioned for just about every situation they can be put into.  Their bodies are tuffened beyond what many of us might know.  An art in it's best form is one that practices it as a way of life.  It takes a long time to be truely good at it.  I'm not saying that someone who has been studying HapKido for 5 years isn't good at it, I'm saying they aren't as good as they will be if they continue on.  We tend to compare things to what Bruce Lee, Jet Li and many other experts can do and use them as references.  They know more than one style and that's what makes them so good, and the fact that they've been doing it since they were 8.  I could go on all day about this. :)  

To the person that made this post, choose an art that will satisfy your needs and that you enjoy doing and stick with it, don't stop when it get's hard cause that's when it get's good.  Peace!

I do mostly grappling (bjj and judo), but realize the necessity of striking training in addition to ground work. So I round out my training with kickboxing.

Although I am a much better grappler than striker, I realize the ground is not the best place to be in a street fight. My street fight strategy differs a great deal than my mat/ring strategy. I would prefer to throw my opponent down hard, then boot stomp him until he is no longer a threat. If I must go down I want to be on top - drop some hard elbows, then get back to my feet and proceed to stomp. The street is not a place for fancy moves from the guard.

I think the best martial art to pursue depends alot on your goals. If your main goal is self-defense the best art is one that you can use in a real situation. One that you can use in a real situation is one that you have trained full on against a live resisting opponent. Kickboxing, boxing, wrestling, judo, and bjj are better for self-defense than many arts for one reason - during training you must spar live.

Regardless of the art, if you do not spar all out sometimes, you will not be able to use it effectively in a real-life situation. Imagine if a football team never played with a real ball or tackled a real opponent until game day. They would get destroyed.

In a real fight I would put my money on an amateur boxer or high-school wrestler against a black belt in any art that did not spar on a regular basis.

Just my $0.02

Brian Jones
KAGI Sports, Inc.
www.jiujitsugi.com

I am a little fella 150# I work with a muscled out fella that is a lean 210# I have been training MMA off and on for the last 4 years we got to fucking around one day and started wrestling I choked him into submission twice. I do know if it was a real fight with this guy that all that time I was on my back trying to figure out how I was going to finish him he would have been pounding my head in. that said I have always thought if Johnny got drunk (we work in a brewery) and started fucking with me too much I could take his big ass out with a good shot to the balls and either a Thai kick to the head (wile he was hunched down, due to the nut kick) or some muay Thai knees to his head... what I am getting at is knowledge of how to strike and grapple is important but don't forget that your best self defense is head butts to the nose, groin kicks, shin kicks and eye gouges...

I studied ITF TKD, my teacher was a 2nd Degree BB who studied under Tae Hi Nam, who resides in Chicago. Well, he did when I was going to Loyola. Anyway, it was the first MA I studied and there was very little sparring with pads. We did use the shin gaurds but that was all. We also had a Hapkido instructor in the group and he would teach the circualr blocks and joint manipulation with grappling. My last year at Loyola we had a So. California student that was a student of Hwarang Do, an early MA of the Korean Systems taoday. All that together and I would say that I trust the Korean MA styles. However, I did meet a few "ATF" stylists and all they wanted to do was "point" spar, it was quite entertaining when they got grappled and thrown down. One popped up and was quite upset since it was not by "the Rules". Since then I have also studied Kenpo while in Grad school and finally Bunjikan Taijitsu with which I continue to date.

BJJ is great...If you are fighting one guy in pretty open conditions. If you have two attackers YOU DON'T WANT TO GO TO THE GROUND!!! PERIOD. For example some of the prinicples might apply in an airplane aisle, but in such limited space, most of the best and basic BJJ throws/submissions won't work. Boxing/hand trapping skills, for example, would be better suited.

I'll give my $.02 by paraphrasing Bruce Lee. You need to be proficient in all ranges of unarmed combat. Kicking, Boxing, Trapping and Grappling. To over emphasize any particular range, like the grappling range as so loved by our Gracie worshippers, is just not advisable. A fight can go from boxing to grappling in a flash. In fact most fights do. Thats the point of knowing, at least the basics, of an art like BJJ. But in the airplane aisle, as I mentioned before you might not have the room.

Here is a good list of core arts to consider for the various ranges.

1) Kicking: Muay Thai...hands down the baddest F---ing stand up art. It teaches a limitless use of the quickest and deadliest tool-set. Punches, elbows, knees, low-line kicks. If you had just one art to know, this should top the list. Being in CA, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a good Muay Thai school. In addition, the conditioning aspect of MT is amazing.

Also a good instructor in Jun Fan Kung Fu (Bruce Lee's system) can add some attributes to a kicking range tool-set. Try to find a Jeet Kune Do school. That's a good place to start.

2) Boxing: Western boxing and Jun Fan Kung Fu. When it comes to using your hands, boxing is definately an art worth looking into. Jun Fan teaches the basics of boxing with the addition of low line kicking, Wing Chun Kung Fu (Bruce's core art) hand trapping/immobilization and basic principles from dozens of arts and fencing (believe it or not.) The basics of Western boxing are actually rooted in the Filippino Martial Arts, which emphasize the use and defense of the knife...good stuff to know.

3) Trapping: This often overlooked range is the speciallity of Wing Chun practitioners, whom Bruce Lee was a master. Jackie Chan is also a Wing Chun dude. Muay Thai also deals with this range with the use of elbows, knees and blood chokes from the clinch. Action in the trapping range is usually a split second moment in time in transition from boxing to grappling, which is why it is often overlooked. This is the range where you can deliver some nasty meds, if you know what is going on. This is also the range where a skilled fighter can stave off the takedown of a grappler. Often over looked range but very important.

4) Grappling: OK BJJ is awesome stuff I admit. I've trained at several schools, one Rickson Gracie school here in TN, a Ralph Gracie school in Modesto CA, and with two other non affiliated instructors. BJJ should be the root of any good grappling tool-set.
BJJ fighters routinely win pro fights. Royce Gracie in the early UFC fights literally changed the face of martial arts forever.
No real mixed martial arts fighter would consider stepping into the ring without some ground fighting kills...it would be un-thinkable. That wasn't the case before Royce and the early days of the UFC.
Another good grappling root art is Judo. BJJ and Judo have the same root art, Aiki Ju Jitsu. Judo is 95% throws/5% ground control. BJJ is the opposite, with the emphasis on the ground fighting aspect.

The reason I say BJJ should be the root, is because there are other good systems that compliment it. Russian Sambo for example. Judo can get you out of lots of trouble with throws, but there is more to the game. Remember, Judo was started specifically as an Olympic throwing SPORT. It is not a "fighting" system in and of itself. BJJ while also a sport system has tremendous real world use for really hurting people, but as a rule never go to the ground when facing multiple threats.

My final $.02. Check out the Fillipino arts of Escrima/Arnis/Kali. It is the best for knife fighting and defense. Also the footwork is the root for Western boxing. Learning the use of knife/stick is essential in today's world. Police ASP training is derived, basically from this art. Just check it out. Also a little known Indonesian art called Silat is outstanding for multiple attackers with an emphasis on footwork and zoning for defense. It's also excellent in the Trapping and Grappling ranges.

oh well, sorry to dump on you...hope it helps...

Ignore the guys saying "avoid JKD" (Jeet Kune Do.) They don't know what the hell they are talking about. JKD was the original "Mixed Martial Art." JKD is a mindset ,not a "system." A well rounded "JKD" instructor can teach Western Boxing, Muai Thai, basic grappling maybe even BJJ, joint manipulation...whatever. Hell some of them teach firearms courses!!!!! If someone tells you that JKD is a specific system,even one to be avoided, don't listen to them.

Do avoid black belt factory bullshit schools. If you visit a school that has five and six year old kids walking around with Black Belts, run like hell!!! It just means that the teacher has extracted a sufficient amount af cash from little Johnny and Suzie's mommy and daddy.
Belt tests are usually accompanied by a "testing fee" of some kind...follow the money trail.

Like one guy said earlier, don't learn self defense, learn how to fight!

When in doubt, use Ninja throwing stars, but don't forget to dip them in poison first!

I like  jujitsu myself, but it works well with in the rules of law enforcement.  I try to learn as much from different martial arts as possible, try them out, and if I dont like them I dont use them.  The idea is be able to fight on the ground or standing up.  Know you weaknesses and strengths in both places and use them to your advantage.  If you get a guy that wants to fight on the ground make him fight stand up and vise versa.  I would say the number #1 thing is to find some place where you can go 100% on a live partner at least some of the time.  That is the only way to know what works for you.  Check this sight out if you are looking for a good form of jujitsu.  www.johnsayler-sja.com  

Here's the point most BJJ bashers are missing:

Take two guys.  One only knows BJJ and punches like a girl.  The other guy is a boxer, never wrestled in his life.  The BJJ guy will win every time, everything else being equal.  Takedown defense, even with eye gouges thrown in, isn't something you just "think up and do".  It takes practice.  

As for going to the ground and padded mats vs the "real street": that works both ways.  People that don't practice working takedown defenses (as opposed on planning on that killer punch or knee to "knock the BJJ guy out") are in for an abrupt, violent meeting with the ground surface.

The other thing about "going to the ground" is...sometimes you don't have a choice.  Fights are chaotic.  You will trip, get tripped, slip, and fall.  Your concern over the broken bottles, rocks, razor wire and lava on the ground is well founded, but your opponent may not be as rational and decide to tackle you anyway.  It's better to have an idea of what to do when this happens then having to improvise on the spot.

As for fighting more than 1 person at a time...the only martial art I know of that works in this situation is gunfu.  

Dirty shit goes both ways.  Both parties can bite or eye gouge or shank the other person.  This applies for BJJ or any other martial art.  I'm not sure how this makes TKD or Muy Thai, for example, "better" than BJJ.  Someone could have a gun too.  Guess what?  Knife vs flesh = flesh loses.  Bullet vs flesh = flesh loses.  People bringing up knives and guns is akin to bringing up truck bombs when talking about how anti-ballistic missile defense doesn't work because it won't stop a truck bomb.  Duh.  It's not supposed to.  Anti-BJJ folks keep changing the parameters so that their art comes out "better" in the 1% of the scenarios as they get to define them.  Most fights don't involve knifes or guns.  And if you are in situation that involves fights with knives or guns, your best bet is to invest in a knife or gun yourself, not learn BJJ or TKD or Sambo or Muy Thai.

And nothing in BJJ is really original.  Judo covered most of it a long time ago.  The main difference is that judo branched off into a sport concentrating primarily on throws, while BJJ branched off into a sport concentrating primarily on ground submissions.  Both judo and BJJ have lost some of their original nature in the pursuit of mass market appeal but are still a hell of a lot better than just about anything out there for self defense except Muy Thai and western boxing.  

Quoted: BJJ is great...If you are fighting one guy in pretty open conditions. If you have two attackers YOU DON'T WANT TO GO TO THE GROUND!!! PERIOD. For example some of the prinicples might apply in an airplane aisle, but in such limited space, most of the best and basic BJJ throws/submissions won't work. Boxing/hand trapping skills, for example, would be better suited. I'll give my $.02 by paraphrasing Bruce Lee. You need to be proficient in all ranges of unarmed combat. Kicking, Boxing, Trapping and Grappling. To over emphasize any particular range, like the grappling range as so loved by our Gracie worshippers, is just not advisable. A fight can go from boxing to grappling in a flash. In fact most fights do. Thats the point of knowing, at least the basics, of an art like BJJ. But in the airplane aisle, as I mentioned before you might not have the room. Here is a good list of core arts to consider for the various ranges. 1) Kicking: Muay Thai...hands down the baddest F---ing stand up art. It teaches a limitless use of the quickest and deadliest tool-set. Punches, elbows, knees, low-line kicks. If you had just one art to know, this should top the list. Being in CA, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a good Muay Thai school. In addition, the conditioning aspect of MT is amazing. Also a good instructor in Jun Fan Kung Fu (Bruce Lee's system) can add some attributes to a kicking range tool-set. Try to find a Jeet Kune Do school. That's a good place to start. 2) Boxing: Western boxing and Jun Fan Kung Fu. When it comes to using your hands, boxing is definately an art worth looking into. Jun Fan teaches the basics of boxing with the addition of low line kicking, Wing Chun Kung Fu (Bruce's core art) hand trapping/immobilization and basic principles from dozens of arts and fencing (believe it or not.) The basics of Western boxing are actually rooted in the Filippino Martial Arts, which emphasize the use and defense of the knife...good stuff to know. 3) Trapping: This often overlooked range is the speciallity of Wing Chun practitioners, whom Bruce Lee was a master. Jackie Chan is also a Wing Chun dude. Muay Thai also deals with this range with the use of elbows, knees and blood chokes from the clinch. Action in the trapping range is usually a split second moment in time in transition from boxing to grappling, which is why it is often overlooked. This is the range where you can deliver some nasty meds, if you know what is going on. This is also the range where a skilled fighter can stave off the takedown of a grappler. Often over looked range but very important. 4) Grappling: OK BJJ is awesome stuff I admit. I've trained at several schools, one Rickson Gracie school here in TN, a Ralph Gracie school in Modesto CA, and with two other non affiliated instructors. BJJ should be the root of any good grappling tool-set. BJJ fighters routinely win pro fights. Royce Gracie in the early UFC fights literally changed the face of martial arts forever. No real mixed martial arts fighter would consider stepping into the ring without some ground fighting kills...it would be un-thinkable. That wasn't the case before Royce and the early days of the UFC. Another good grappling root art is Judo. BJJ and Judo have the same root art, Aiki Ju Jitsu. Judo is 95% throws/5% ground control. BJJ is the opposite, with the emphasis on the ground fighting aspect. The reason I say BJJ should be the root, is because there are other good systems that compliment it. Russian Sambo for example. Judo can get you out of lots of trouble with throws, but there is more to the game. Remember, Judo was started specifically as an Olympic throwing SPORT. It is not a "fighting" system in and of itself. BJJ while also a sport system has tremendous real world use for really hurting people, but as a rule never go to the ground when facing multiple threats. My final $.02. Check out the Fillipino arts of Escrima/Arnis/Kali. It is the best for knife fighting and defense. Also the footwork is the root for Western boxing. Learning the use of knife/stick is essential in today's world. Police ASP training is derived, basically from this art. Just check it out. Also a little known Indonesian art called Silat is outstanding for multiple attackers with an emphasis on footwork and zoning for defense. It's also excellent in the Trapping and Grappling ranges. oh well, sorry to dump on you...hope it helps...

A pretty good post indeed...

Quoted: The reason I say BJJ should be the root, is because there are other good systems that compliment it. Russian Sambo for example. Judo can get you out of lots of trouble with throws, but there is more to the game. Remember, Judo was started specifically as an Olympic throwing SPORT. It is not a "fighting" system in and of itself. BJJ while also a sport system has tremendous real world use for really hurting people, but as a rule never go to the ground when facing multiple threats.

Actually, Judo started out as a fighting system and morphed into an art.  Judo came into being around 1880 as an off-shoot of jiu-jitsu (japanese, not brazilian).  It did not become an Olympic sport until 1964.

Let's just not kid ourselves into thinking that there is a way to fight multiple opponents, that is in the movies... seriously, try it sometime.

Quoted: Here's the point most BJJ bashers are missing: Take two guys.  One only knows BJJ and punches like a girl.  The other guy is a boxer, never wrestled in his life.  The BJJ guy will win every time, everything else being equal.  Takedown defense, even with eye gouges thrown in, isn't something you just "think up and do".  It takes practice.   As for going to the ground and padded mats vs the "real street": that works both ways.  People that don't practice working takedown defenses (as opposed on planning on that killer punch or knee to "knock the BJJ guy out") are in for an abrupt, violent meeting with the ground surface. The other thing about "going to the ground" is...sometimes you don't have a choice.  Fights are chaotic.  You will trip, get tripped, slip, and fall.  Your concern over the broken bottles, rocks, razor wire and lava on the ground is well founded, but your opponent may not be as rational and decide to tackle you anyway.  It's better to have an idea of what to do when this happens then having to improvise on the spot. As for fighting more than 1 person at a time...the only martial art I know of that works in this situation is gunfu.   Dirty shit goes both ways.  Both parties can bite or eye gouge or shank the other person.  This applies for BJJ or any other martial art.  I'm not sure how this makes TKD or Muy Thai, for example, "better" than BJJ.  Someone could have a gun too.  Guess what?  Knife vs flesh = flesh loses.  Bullet vs flesh = flesh loses.  People bringing up knives and guns is akin to bringing up truck bombs when talking about how anti-ballistic missile defense doesn't work because it won't stop a truck bomb.  Duh.  It's not supposed to.  Anti-BJJ folks keep changing the parameters so that their art comes out "better" in the 1% of the scenarios as they get to define them.  Most fights don't involve knifes or guns.  And if you are in situation that involves fights with knives or guns, your best bet is to invest in a knife or gun yourself, not learn BJJ or TKD or Sambo or Muy Thai. And nothing in BJJ is really original.  Judo covered most of it a long time ago.  The main difference is that judo branched off into a sport concentrating primarily on throws, while BJJ branched off into a sport concentrating primarily on ground submissions.  Both judo and BJJ have lost some of their original nature in the pursuit of mass market appeal but are still a hell of a lot better than just about anything out there for self defense except Muy Thai and western boxing.

Be careful... people here don’t like thinking that they can avoid going to the ground.
I have taken BB's in Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Don't to the ground… E F F O R T L E S S L Y!

And to all these guys that THINK you know about BJJ from watching UFC, you know nothing…  go find a Brazilian or someone with a DIRECT leniage going back to Brazil.
If you can, find someone who grew up in a bad neighborhood in Rio where fighting meant life or death, and all the faggot style aikido wrist circles become completely useless.

Your right though, a good take down on a hard surface will do the trick.

Fucking Ninja’s, Steven Segal, Jean-Claude Van Damn… at least Chuck Norris got his clock cleaned in Brazil and has now shifted his focus completely too training BJJ.
In fact, I believe he is now one of Rigan Machado’s brown belts, go chuck!

Drakich, you are correct that Judo is an off-shoot of JuJitsu (Japanese). It however, has always been a sport. This is not to day that you can't seriously injure or kill someone with it as most techniques were taken from a legitmate fighting from. I believe the progression was MA's were banned in Japan and this was a way to train in MA without looking like you were training. It has evolved over time to be less fighting and  more sport.  Those that study Japanese JuJitsu know the minor, but key points, to revert the Judo techniques to the devastating origins it came from.

Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is nowhere near as effective as BJJ... the Brazilian’s reduced it to a simple science of very quickly and efficiently incapacitating. Which, oddly, brought back a lot of the Indian monk’s mind-set of accomplishing the most w/the least? I have a friend that trained Japanese Jiu-Jitsu for years, and claimed to be a brown belt... he didn't even know a proper shoulder lock that is applicable in full-force sparring. In fact, he really didn’t even have a good choke.  They even use the top mount w/the wrong approach to something I think is now called a 'paint brush'. You can’t be told the difference, yet a properly applied Americana from the side mount and one will make you scream, the other will cause general discomfort and give you a chance to roll out of it.

Even MT or Boxing is useless if taken to the ground, which only those who have never spared with an experienced Judo or BJJ practitioner argue. I do, however, understand a knock-out blow is a knock-out blow, and knees are lethal, but you’ve got a small window on your feet. Once on the ground it stays there, except rare occasions. And, since most anyone would agree that 95+% of all fights go to the ground, lets think about what is most important to train?

Hell I want to stay of the ground if I can knock someone out w/one punch... but it rarely happens.
Even the MMA fighters in the world get taken to the ground. I don’t care if a ‘real’ Ninja Master posts in here proving why it is a bad idea to go there... they still do.

On the ground, even with 2-3 months of BJJ hands-on, full-force, 'tap or snap' training will prove devastating to other fighting 'arts'. Going to the ground with someone trained in BJJ is likened in Brazil to entering the water w/a shark... you are in his world, and your fate is his choice.

BJJ is a science, proven lethally in the streets of Rio.
I have said it a hundred times, it is the only fighting style proven known.

Any art can have poor teachers or learning methods. To say that Japanese JuJitsu os not as effective as BJJ does not take into account all aspects of fighting or arts. Many teachers do not instruct, by choice or by lack of knowledge, the full potential the of their art form. Some save this for the highest level when you are are accepted as a serious student. Others will never show you and you will have to figure it out on your own.

Sure, in a cage, one on one the BJJ guy has an advantage. So, you have to take a look at how much time and energy you are willing to put in and what will get you the best return. If you are only going to put in 6 months take BJJ. Simple priciples of ne waza, taken from traditional Japanese JuJitsu, and practiced over and over again. Nothing new there. If you are willing to put in years you will find there are deeper levels ( of many different arts)  that will continue to keep your interested and continueally make you more effective.

You have to go back to what is the goal and what you are willing to do to get there. Defense against a knife, weapon retension (police/concealed carry), or impressive displays of power and such.

To say the BJJ is the only proven fighting style is comical and ignorant. he
Most bang for the buck in the short term is BJJ. Over years of training there are other arts can be more effective.

Quoted: Drakich, you are correct that Judo is an off-shoot of JuJitsu (Japanese). It however, has always been a sport. This is not to day that you can't seriously injure or kill someone with it as most techniques were taken from a legitmate fighting from. I believe the progression was MA's were banned in Japan and this was a way to train in MA without looking like you were training. It has evolved over time to be less fighting and  more sport.  Those that study Japanese JuJitsu know the minor, but key points, to revert the Judo techniques to the devastating origins it came from.

Quoted: Any art can have poor teachers or learning methods. To say that Japanese JuJitsu os not as effective as BJJ does not take into account all aspects of fighting or arts. Many teachers do not instruct, by choice or by lack of knowledge, the full potential the of their art form. Some save this for the highest level when you are are accepted as a serious student. Others will never show you and you will have to figure it out on your own. Sure, in a cage, one on one the BJJ guy has an advantage. So, you have to take a look at how much time and energy you are willing to put in and what will get you the best return. If you are only going to put in 6 months take BJJ. Simple priciples of ne waza, taken from traditional Japanese JuJitsu, and practiced over and over again. Nothing new there. If you are willing to put in years you will find there are deeper levels ( of many different arts)  that will continue to keep your interested and continueally make you more effective. You have to go back to what is the goal and what you are willing to do to get there. Defense against a knife, weapon retension (police/concealed carry), or impressive displays of power and such. To say the BJJ is the only proven fighting style is comical and ignorant. In BJJ the fight starts when you hit the mat. In many arts the fight is over by the time they hit the ground. This is one thing missed in MMA. You are not trying to kill the other person. As such, you leave some techniques at the door. Most bang for the buck in the short term is BJJ. Over years of training there are other arts can be more effective.

Oh God, another my art is too lethal for me to show you post!
And to bring weapons into it... *sigh*

So what you are saying is that BJJ only works if your opponent is not skilled?

I’ll agree w/anything you say if you promise not to mention the words 'Combat Ninjitsu' or 'Krav Maga', that is my pain threshold for laughter.

Tell me this, why do fighters all learn BJJ to defend it?
Why do all the generic fad fighting styles all incorporate Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and say it has been part of their art for centuries?

Where is our titty-bar Krav Maga vindicator… he was surely more wise than me in the ways of the force!!!

Bwaaaa haaa haaa haa!!!!!!

Quoted: Let's just not kid ourselves into thinking that there is a way to fight multiple opponents, that is in the movies... seriously, try it sometime.

What would you do if confronted by more than one opponent?

I'm not going to tell you I'm superman, but the winning mind set and training to defend against multiple attackers is a great training tool. I would feel better knowing I had some type of preparedness by training in the dojang for this scenario should it ever present itself then just trying to run or curl up in the fetal position.

I have no idea why I even entered back into this pointless discussion? I dont think my 23 years in the arts, the 5 years I have owned my own school or countless times I have actually used my skills to defend against real violent attackers trying to do great bodily harm to me counts for anything anyway!  

Quoted: Quoted: Let's just not kid ourselves into thinking that there is a way to fight multiple opponents, that is in the movies... seriously, try it sometime. What would you do if confronted by more than one opponent? I'm not going to tell you I'm superman, but the winning mind set and training to defend against multiple attackers is a great training tool. I would feel better knowing I had some type of preparedness by training in the dojang for this scenario should it ever present itself then just trying to run or curl up in the fetal position. I have no idea why I even entered back into this pointless discussion? I dont think my 23 years in the arts, the 5 years I have owned my own school or countless times I have actually used my skills to defend against real violent attackers trying to do great bodily harm to me counts for anything anyway!

I couldn't help but get back into this after all the emails.
If you dont mind, please enlighten us w/any of your personaly experiences... fighting multiple, armed opponents that is.

Quoted: I couldn't help but get back into this after all the emails. If you dont mind, please enlighten us w/any of your personaly experiences... fighting multiple, armed opponents that is.

Still answering a question with a question? What would you suggest one do if confronted by multiple attackers? CURL UP IN THE FETAL POSITION, OR FIGHT BACK!

Never said I had encounters with armed multiple attackers, or that I even had any encounters with multiple attackers. DONT MISQUOTE ME!

My statement was that I have used my skills to defend against real violent attackers trying to do great bodily harm to me countless times.

That means that I have defended myself using techniques I've been taught numerous times over the years nothing more or less. By twisting people's words you do nothing but make yourself look childish, I dont understand why you always get so defensive with me. I've already told you that BJJ is an awsome style when complimented by another system. I actually did a little cross training in BJJ myself.

Quoted: Still answering a question with a question? What would you suggest one do if confronted by multiple attackers? CURL UP IN THE FETAL POSITION, OR FIGHT BACK! Never said I had encounters with armed multiple attackers, or that I even had any encounters with multiple attackers. DONT MISQUOTE ME! My statement was that I have used my skills to defend against real violent attackers trying to do great bodily harm to me countless times. That means that I have defended myself using techniques I've been taught numerous times over the years nothing more or less. By twisting people's words you do nothing but make yourself look childish, I dont understand why you always get so defensive with me. I've already told you that BJJ is an awsome style when complimented by another system. I actually did a little cross training in BJJ myself.

Not trying to misquote anyone, sorry if you think it was being defensive.
I asked for your experiences in this matter… only because I’ve seen it happen a few times. It doesn’t work.

Scissor kicks, whatever you call them, weapon disarming, again, is really great for ‘The Bourne supremacy’ and Jet Li movies… but man, from being raised by a cop, not too mention in a bad area w/a rough high school… then repossessing cars for a short while, I can tell you, there is no fighting multiple opponents, unless you are able to fuck them up, or knock them out sequentially.

Apologies for not answering your question, however my advice is to run… run fast, run far.

Even if I were armed w/an M4 against 2 attackers using handguns I would be constantly backing up whil shooting.

to be fair,Scissor kicks are really effective. if you know what you are doing with them- and i'm not saying everyone does, but if you do, they can very well take down people. not simply the single kick, but the entire motion that goes along with the ground fighting. most people do not know how to ground fight, especially when they are up and you are down. the mobility allowed from those stances is not something that is easy to tackle and most people are not willing to give up their footing to get down with you.

i do agree with what you said, and its been what i've always been taught. never try to fight multiple people and just beat them back, you have to drop them one at a time, and very quickly or you dont have a chance. its a lot harder than people make it out to be, but practice and knowledge will make it an option(albiet it an option you want to avoid).

i studied wang tsun for a while, and i found that the principals in it allowed me to control pretty much anyone i've ever had to fight. in the instances where i've sparred 3-4 people at once in training, i found that a mixture of that, joint locks & breaks, and simple blunt trauma to several key areas to be very effective in controlling where people were, their distance to me, and their ability to hit me. further, learning some simple physics is a wonderful thing when you apply it to martial arts. when you get hit, and you will, you will learn how to make it hurt less, because it will hurt.

and yes, the best option in a fight is to turn and run. dont fight if you dont have to. there is no need for it. if you know what you are doing, you are the aggressor because you know you will end up hurting someone. be humble about it, take the hit to your ego and save their trip to the hospital, especially if there is only one. fights are normally not required. so run,walk, or back away and avoid the fight.

Quoted: to be fair,Scissor kicks are really effective. if you know what you are doing with them- and i'm not saying everyone does, but if you do, they can very well take down people. not simply the single kick, but the entire motion that goes along with the ground fighting. most people do not know how to ground fight, especially when they are up and you are down. the mobility allowed from those stances is not something that is easy to tackle and most people are not willing to give up their footing to get down with you. i do agree with what you said, and its been what i've always been taught. never try to fight multiple people and just beat them back, you have to drop them one at a time, and very quickly or you dont have a chance. its a lot harder than people make it out to be, but practice and knowledge will make it an option(albiet it an option you want to avoid). i studied wang tsun for a while, and i found that the principals in it allowed me to control pretty much anyone i've ever had to fight. in the instances where i've sparred 3-4 people at once in training, i found that a mixture of that, joint locks & breaks, and simple blunt trauma to several key areas to be very effective in controlling where people were, their distance to me, and their ability to hit me. further, learning some simple physics is a wonderful thing when you apply it to martial arts. when you get hit, and you will, you will learn how to make it hurt less, because it will hurt. and yes, the best option in a fight is to turn and run. dont fight if you dont have to. there is no need for it. if you know what you are doing, you are the aggressor because you know you will end up hurting someone. be humble about it, take the hit to your ego and save their trip to the hospital, especially if there is only one. fights are normally not required. so run,walk, or back away and avoid the fight.

I agree w/your mindset to avoid the conflict... but don’t be over-confident in your abilities to so easily disable two attackers, or even more.
The only effective way you can kick to incapacitate is to the head, and it's REALLY tough to kick some in the head... except for in movies that is.

You’ve got one shot w/a kick, and you’re off balance if you miss.
I think boxing is better, and then MT for knees as you can keep your legs under you.
Boxers throw a punch and miss, they already have a follow up of at least 1 or two more, this is where I have seen COUNTLESS ‘Ninja Masters’ get their asses kicked.
The look on their face is of total shock and surprise.

If two guys are going to fuck you up, they are going to fuck you up.
If one guy has a knife, or a pipe, you are going to loose.

Sparing isn't sparing unless its fighting... full force.

All fights go to the ground.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu if the most effective thing on the ground.

I’m very hard to catch on my feet.
I am a fairly decent shot w/my concealed carry Glock 36.

tag for later

Quoted: I agree w/your mindset to avoid the conflict... but don’t be over-confident in your abilities to so easily disable two attackers, or even more. The only effective way you can kick to incapacitate is to the head, and it's REALLY tough to kick some in the head... except for in movies that is. You’ve got one shot w/a kick, and you’re off balance if you miss. I think boxing is better, and then MT for knees as you can keep your legs under you. Boxers throw a punch and miss, they already have a follow up of at least 1 or two more, this is where I have seen COUNTLESS ‘Ninja Masters’ get their asses kicked. The look on their face is of total shock and surprise. If two guys are going to fuck you up, they are going to fuck you up. If one guy has a knife, or a pipe, you are going to loose. Sparing isn't sparing unless its fighting... full force. All fights go to the ground. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu if the most effective thing on the ground. I’m very hard to catch on my feet. I am a fairly decent shot w/my concealed carry Glock 36.

i guess i disagree with your assessment of kicks to the head. i have been trained and told from the day i was born you never kick higher than the shins. everyone i've ever sparred with rammed that down my throat. you practice high kicks so you have the power and the control of low kicks. knocking someone out isn't anywhere near as hard as you make it sound, you can disable someone very easily in any of a number of ways and you dont need to have kicks to do it. kicks leave you open, off balance and not mobile. mobility is important, balance and control are even more so. there are numerous spots and ways to take someone down in a split second without getting all bruce lee on them, i've seen it, i've done it, and its been done to me. it hurts like a son of a bitch if you're able to stay awake and up after the contact.

not all fights go to the ground, especially not in the order in which i'm talking about. a lot of chaos goes to the ground, but not everything. and even those that do, most people are not trained to ever fight on the ground.

boxing is an amazing sport, and it definately has its place. the upper arm training that boxing entails is something that martial artists should keep well enough in mind. it was the theory behind jet li's ripping the ideas from it in jeet kun do, or any of a number of other ones. the ability of "ninjas" or whatever you want to call them is in their ability to use their feet- not just for kicking, but in the mobility and the function of the c-step, in the movement of absorbing or deflecting or avoiding blows, and in controlling the opponents options in a very real way. i've seen fights where people have never even hit someone and just used mobility and distance to control everything.

not all martial arts can be practiced at full force, full speed yes- but not full force. nor should you attempt to. the point in any successful encounter is to eliminate the threat as it is presented. in sparring there is no threat, so the use of force must be applied differently.

i care to differ about you always losing with two people. it has been my experience that is not always true, moreover- you can win in a number of ways in a fight. there are no rules in a fight except, do not lose. same with one guy with a weapon, that simply does not mean anything.

you get a lot of jackasses and dumbasses from tkd/karate. you get people who have taken a few classes and think they can rough someone up. the fact is that they dont have the training to know what they are doing. they are certainly no more able to fight than anyone else, albiet a bit more training.  in real martial arts, in real combat, its brutal, it hurts. the training hurts, the fights hurt, the sparring hurts. everything hurts. most of the self proclaimed experts have never been hit, they have never gone through the training that others have.

Quoted: i guess i disagree with your assessment of kicks to the head. i have been trained and told from the day i was born you never kick higher than the shins. everyone i've ever sparred with rammed that down my throat. you practice high kicks so you have the power and the control of low kicks. knocking someone out isn't anywhere near as hard as you make it sound, you can disable someone very easily in any of a number of ways and you dont need to have kicks to do it. kicks leave you open, off balance and not mobile. mobility is important, balance and control are even more so. there are numerous spots and ways to take someone down in a split second without getting all bruce lee on them, i've seen it, i've done it, and its been done to me. it hurts like a son of a bitch if you're able to stay awake and up after the contact. not all fights go to the ground, especially not in the order in which i'm talking about. a lot of chaos goes to the ground, but not everything. and even those that do, most people are not trained to ever fight on the ground. boxing is an amazing sport, and it definately has its place. the upper arm training that boxing entails is something that martial artists should keep well enough in mind. it was the theory behind jet li's ripping the ideas from it in jeet kun do, or any of a number of other ones. the ability of "ninjas" or whatever you want to call them is in their ability to use their feet- not just for kicking, but in the mobility and the function of the c-step, in the movement of absorbing or deflecting or avoiding blows, and in controlling the opponents options in a very real way. i've seen fights where people have never even hit someone and just used mobility and distance to control everything. not all martial arts can be practiced at full force, full speed yes- but not full force. nor should you attempt to. the point in any successful encounter is to eliminate the threat as it is presented. in sparring there is no threat, so the use of force must be applied differently. i care to differ about you always losing with two people. it has been my experience that is not always true, moreover- you can win in a number of ways in a fight. there are no rules in a fight except, do not lose. same with one guy with a weapon, that simply does not mean anything. you get a lot of jackasses and dumbasses from tkd/karate. you get people who have taken a few classes and think they can rough someone up. the fact is that they dont have the training to know what they are doing. they are certainly no more able to fight than anyone else, albiet a bit more training.  in real martial arts, in real combat, its brutal, it hurts. the training hurts, the fights hurt, the sparring hurts. everything hurts. most of the self proclaimed experts have never been hit, they have never gone through the training that others have.

Great... another fucking 'my art is too tough to train', 'you can't understand' post.
In 10 pages, it always has to come back too this!!!

You know how many black belts in Kung Fu I have seen get thier ass kicked in street fights!
Just by boxers alone? PLENTY!!!

FUCK KUNG FU!!!
FUCK TAE KWON DO(nt)!!!

Dont tell me how easy it is to knock someone out, I can choke someone out that doesn’t know BJJ w/relative easy, it's just a matter of tiring them down to get to thier neck. And dont tell me I can’t take you to the ground. Sure, you can make it hard for me… but it will go there, I promise. Go get into a fight and tell me if it doesn’t go to the ground!!!

Boxing, Maui Thai, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is just about the only thing practical in real-world (no weapons) scraps.
* Boxing for the furthest distance
* Maui Thai for the middle (up close)
* BJJ for the ground… which is where it will end up and where you kung fu fucks always end up rubbing your necks, asking what happened because you don’t train on the ground.

Wait a second; I shouldn’t have to tell you this…. If you’ve fought you know this. People trip over each others feet, get thrown, trip over tables, etc.

Quoted: Great... another fucking 'my art is too tough to train', 'you can't understand' post. In 10 pages, it always has to come back too this!!! You know how many black belts in Kung Fu I have seen get thier ass kicked in street fights! Just by boxers alone? PLENTY!!! FUCK KUNG FU!!! FUCK TAE KWON DO(nt)!!! Dont tell me how easy it is to knock someone out, I can choke someone out that doesn’t know BJJ w/relative easy, it's just a matter of tiring them down to get to thier neck. And dont tell me I can’t take you to the ground. Sure, you can make it hard for me… but it will go there, I promise. Go get into a fight and tell me if it doesn’t go to the ground!!! Boxing, Maui Thai, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is just about the only thing practical in real-world (no weapons) scraps. * Boxing for the furthest distance * Maui Thai for the middle (up close) * BJJ for the ground… which is where it will end up and where you kung fu fucks always end up rubbing your necks, asking what happened because you don’t train on the ground. Wait a second; I shouldn’t have to tell you this…. If you’ve fought you know this. People trip over each others feet, get thrown, trip over tables, etc.

thanks for proving your nothing but a jackass. good job kid.

part of my training involved taking a knight stick and hitting my shins, hitting my forearms, hitting my sides. the point is to develop resistance, to endure pain so it didn't phase you. filling pots with sand and punching it repeatedly aimed at toughening up the hands. a guy i trained under spent his time kicking telephone polls with his shins to toughen them up. that guy was rough. i've trained where you let people rail on your stomach,sides, and chest to let you take it. if you want to believe it or not, there are many, in fact most, martial arts, that have nothing to do with physical training. there are some, the very serious ones, that do.  i've never tried to imply that my training was too tough by any means, only that most martial arts do not involve any sort of serious training to endure the real part of combat- the pain. thats a fact

you seem to have a ton of experience seeing a lot of "ninja's" getting their asses kicked, you seem to have seem hundreds of street fights. for some odd reason, i'm not inclined to believe you. but thats my choice.

i've actually never said i dont end up on the ground. i've said that most people dont know anything about ground fighting. instead of posting your angry, "i'm always right" crap, could you actually just slow down and discuss something? if you like it or not, your quick list of 4 martial arts that work are not the only ones that work. i suggest you get out more if you think thats the case. if you've spent time studying anything, you'll know that any martial arts when trained at high levels is efficent to fight any others. some give more direct and faster results then slow down, some take a while then give results. it all depends. it also depends on the style someone else uses. you boil it down to making it far simplier than anything else is.

its funny. you actually dont know what style i practice, but you keep on making idiotic claims. you dont know anything about my style, how i trained, who i trained with, or what i've done with it. you cry and cry about how superior a few martial arts are and that boxers can beat anyone. thats nice- it is, i've fought boxers. they're good, they have good upper body control and its a rough fight if you focus on that.. the problem with boxing as a strict style is that they are upper body only- thats part of their art. their knees, for instance, are very open to breaking, dislocating, or otherwise hurting.

you talk about how hard it is to knock someone out or put them out of the fight: have you ever had your leg broken? you are effectively out of the fight. you need to learn that there are multiple ways to accomplish any task, and that certain martial arts are better at certain things. go shove your attitude and go watch some more street fights. the fights you seem to describe are the ones that should be avoided. it sounds like a flashback to highschool all over again, long drawn out fights with all sorts of desperate attempts. fights dont last long. they're short and sweet, most end in under thirty seconds. i appreciate that flashback though. good for a laugh.

and i just went back and reread eveything you've posted- you've always been a jackass. my point in posting was to bring my experiences and my training into the thread and to say what i had learned in the many many years i've been practicing. you seem to only want to show that you are right. i hate to tell you this, but life is full of different experiences. if you dont appreicate what i have to say, fine, but dont go and get on some pedistal and act like your shit doesn't stink. thanks.

Quoted: thanks for proving your nothing but a jackass. good job kid. part of my training involved taking a knight stick and hitting my shins, hitting my forearms, hitting my sides. the point is to develop resistance, to endure pain so it didn't phase you. filling pots with sand and punching it repeatedly aimed at toughening up the hands. a guy i trained under spent his time kicking telephone polls with his shins to toughen them up. that guy was rough. i've trained where you let people rail on your stomach,sides, and chest to let you take it. if you want to believe it or not, there are many, in fact most, martial arts, that have nothing to do with physical training. there are some, the very serious ones, that do.  i've never tried to imply that my training was too tough by any means, only that most martial arts do not involve any sort of serious training to endure the real part of combat- the pain. thats a fact you seem to have a ton of experience seeing a lot of "ninja's" getting their asses kicked, you seem to have seem hundreds of street fights. for some odd reason, i'm not inclined to believe you. but thats my choice. i've actually never said i dont end up on the ground. i've said that most people dont know anything about ground fighting. instead of posting your angry, "i'm always right" crap, could you actually just slow down and discuss something? if you like it or not, your quick list of 4 martial arts that work are not the only ones that work. i suggest you get out more if you think thats the case. if you've spent time studying anything, you'll know that any martial arts when trained at high levels is efficent to fight any others. some give more direct and faster results then slow down, some take a while then give results. it all depends. it also depends on the style someone else uses. you boil it down to making it far simplier than anything else is. its funny. you actually dont know what style i practice, but you keep on making idiotic claims. you dont know anything about my style, how i trained, who i trained with, or what i've done with it. you cry and cry about how superior a few martial arts are and that boxers can beat anyone. thats nice- it is, i've fought boxers. they're good, they have good upper body control and its a rough fight if you focus on that.. the problem with boxing as a strict style is that they are upper body only- thats part of their art. their knees, for instance, are very open to breaking, dislocating, or otherwise hurting. you talk about how hard it is to knock someone out or put them out of the fight: have you ever had your leg broken? you are effectively out of the fight. you need to learn that there are multiple ways to accomplish any task, and that certain martial arts are better at certain things. go shove your attitude and go watch some more street fights. the fights you seem to describe are the ones that should be avoided. it sounds like a flashback to highschool all over again, long drawn out fights with all sorts of desperate attempts. fights dont last long. they're short and sweet, most end in under thirty seconds. i appreciate that flashback though. good for a laugh. and i just went back and reread eveything you've posted- you've always been a jackass. my point in posting was to bring my experiences and my training into the thread and to say what i had learned in the many many years i've been practicing. you seem to only want to show that you are right. i hate to tell you this, but life is full of different experiences. if you dont appreicate what i have to say, fine, but dont go and get on some pedistal and act like your shit doesn't stink. thanks.

Hey wise old man, thanks for proving that you’re the guy who I will be safest paired w/if I get attacked by multiple, nightstick wielding high school kids in a pottery barn!!!

Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Neo, Steven Segal... no wait, sorry about that, your training sounds more like Van Dam’s. Or, better yet; Frank Dukes... FRANK, IS IT REALLY YOU MAN? Or wait, you sure you aren't the Krav Maga titty-bar vindicator?

I had a guy get so mad he was near tears because he told me that Jet Li would kill anyone in a 'real' fight. It felt... REALLY good when I choked him.
Another guy told me that he was a second degree black-belt in Tae Kwon Do(nt) and therefore he would go easy on me.  I let him scream loud enough w/a knee bar to get everyone in the class to stop rolling.

See, if you haven’t noticed, I have a REALLY bad attitude problem w/ ‘Martial arts’ its that they don’t work… and I live to smoke out fucking tools like you to tell them what I think.  
 
The point of this thread is to educate those who may not know what ‘art’ would best serve them to train.

When you want to learn how to break a bone, learn to leverage your entire body against a joint that is locked against the ground.
Go break some fucking boards, or clay pots, or tear a phone book in half for all I care.

FUCK KUNG POW…  it’s a damned Chinese theatrical art!!!

Tell us a master of wang-chung, or whatever the fuck it is that you study, do you fight “crouching tiger hidden dragon” style, or “matrix” style?

you know whats funny, in one post you quote a guy who talks about wang tsun being used for trapping and how effective that is, and then now you barely know anything about the principals about it. before you want to wax intellectual about how most martial arts dont work, i suggest you get out and find someone who is trained in them, not some high school kid who saw a movie about them.

you have an attitude problem alright. it reminds me of some 16 year old punk who thinks that just because his nuts have a little hair on them, that he's the biggest dog in the yard. you need to really get out and see the real world. you need to get over your overly hostile and overtly ignorant cover lines. you sound like a real tool honestly. you sound like your idea of a fight is something you can pick outside of a local mall. the fact that you probably have a gun scares me. you really need to grow up.

Quoted: you know whats funny, in one post you quote a guy who talks about wang tsun being used for trapping and how effective that is, and then now you barely know anything about the principals about it. before you want to wax intellectual about how most martial arts dont work, i suggest you get out and find someone who is trained in them, not some high school kid who saw a movie about them. you have an attitude problem alright. it reminds me of some 16 year old punk who thinks that just because his nuts have a little hair on them, that he's the biggest dog in the yard. you need to really get out and see the real world. you need to get over your overly hostile and overtly ignorant cover lines. you sound like a real tool honestly. you sound like your idea of a fight is something you can pick outside of a local mall. the fact that you probably have a gun scares me. you really need to grow up.

Yep that's me... little Mr. fuzzy nuts!
Anyway, you never answered my question... do you fight ‘Crouching Tiger’ style, or ‘Matrix’ style?

See you in the real world, hopefully there won’t be any clay pot hooligans in the next ally I walk down; that would really make not learning the ways of the force under you a damned pity for sure!

Oh, and the ‘real world’ needs you; Krav Maga masters are taking over the titty-bar, you simply MUST represent your school by going there now to free the good little girls working their way through med school.

And believe me when I say, I would love to go help… but I need to grow up.

Thumper send me a plane ticket to texas please... I would love to spar you and show you that BJJ isn't the all in one solution you think it is.

P.S. You said you weight over 200... so you would have a distinct weight advantage. I'll bet my house you still don't win.

Quoted: Yep that's me... little Mr. fuzzy nuts! Anyway, you never answered my question... do you fight ‘Crouching Tiger’ style, or ‘Matrix’ style? See you in the real world, hopefully there won’t be any clay pot hooligans in the next ally I walk down; that would really make not learning the ways of the force under you a damned pity for sure! Oh, and the ‘real world’ needs you; Krav Maga masters are taking over the titty-bar, you simply MUST represent your school by going there now to free the good little girls working their way through med school. And believe me when I say, I would love to go help… but I need to grow up.

i didn't answer your question because its idiotic. its running about even with everything you've said thus far- an idiotic derogitory babbling in which you try to make it seem like you're the only one who knows what life is like. and then at the same time, when it sounds like your expertise has come from watching UFC. its funny and sad at the same time.

and besides, aside from you ignorant insults- i dont even practice a form of kung fu. i alluded to this fact in my earlier post when i responded saying that you dont know what i practice. my martial art is a blend of several that i have taken from- wang tsun being one of those that i have borrowed a lot from. many people have. its highly effective on many parts, especially about controlling opponents. what i practice is mainly is based on the concepts behind the SCARS system. trained reactionism. the tactics from other arts are included because of their effectiveness- the locks and breaks, the legwork, the traps, the holds. many of these came from wang tsun. but basically, the idea is a series of quick movements designed to 'grab, break, toss'; quick ways to get rid of people and to make sure the fights are over.

i never pretended to be some master. i'm not. i'm good at what i do, but i have no illusions that i'm not the best. i've worked hard to get as good as i am, and i've been highly succesful in my practice and in my situations where i've needed my skills. i'm not pretending that i know everything, i've told you what i've seen and what i've experienced. if you would stop being a dick and actually read what i post you might see that.

besides, different framed people need different styles. what works for you may not work the same for me. its because our bodies are differently, thats why so many styles have developed. different ways of thinking, different ways of approaching the same solution. this thread is about martial arts, i suggest that everyone study a variety and then combine them in how you feel most comfortable. each person has their likes and dislikes and their own unique style. along with that they also have their best abilities because of their form, build, and mindset. mix them togeather and its almost positive that no martial art is going to be the perfect fit for anyone.

Quoted: i didn't answer your question because its idiotic. its running about even with everything you've said thus far- an idiotic derogitory babbling in which you try to make it seem like you're the only one who knows what life is like. and then at the same time, when it sounds like your expertise has come from watching UFC. its funny and sad at the same time. and besides, aside from you ignorant insults- i dont even practice a form of kung fu. i alluded to this fact in my earlier post when i responded saying that you dont know what i practice. my martial art is a blend of several that i have taken from- wang tsun being one of those that i have borrowed a lot from. many people have. its highly effective on many parts, especially about controlling opponents. what i practice is mainly is based on the concepts behind the SCARS system. trained reactionism. the tactics from other arts are included because of their effectiveness- the locks and breaks, the legwork, the traps, the holds. many of these came from wang tsun. but basically, the idea is a series of quick movements designed to 'grab, break, toss'; quick ways to get rid of people and to make sure the fights are over. i never pretended to be some master. i'm not. i'm good at what i do, but i have no illusions that i'm not the best. i've worked hard to get as good as i am, and i've been highly succesful in my practice and in my situations where i've needed my skills. i'm not pretending that i know everything, i've told you what i've seen and what i've experienced. if you would stop being a dick and actually read what i post you might see that. besides, different framed people need different styles. what works for you may not work the same for me. its because our bodies are differently, thats why so many styles have developed. different ways of thinking, different ways of approaching the same solution. this thread is about martial arts, i suggest that everyone study a variety and then combine them in how you feel most comfortable. each person has their likes and dislikes and their own unique style. along with that they also have their best abilities because of their form, build, and mindset. mix them togeather and its almost positive that no martial art is going to be the perfect fit for anyone.

Wow... I feel so grown up now, thanks!

Quoted: Wow... I feel so grown up now, thanks!

well good. then perhaps you can practice the maturity that goes along with being grown up and actually be open to discussing self defense and martial arts.