I feel the same way, but I fully expected it before I ever bought my SFAR. AR's in general are not as forgiving as a piston operated gun. Maybe with enough gas settings you could get around it, but I really doubt a more forgiving rifle will ever be made than the M14/M1A.  Mine will operate all the way from 170 gr cast bullets at at 1800 fps (with the right powder), all the way to full power 180gr jacketed bullets at 2550 fps (would be faster with the 22" barrel version). It does that without ever touching a setting, and it's very gentle on brass. I don't see any AR ever beating that. It's never going to replace my M1A. I'm hoping the SFAR becomes my hunting rifle.

I still haven't shot my SFAR since I got it back, hopefully tomorrow I can.

That is also my goal with it - Deer / Hog rifle.

I finally got out and shot it today. I only fired 35 rounds because that's all I had loaded. I did use a slower powder than I typically use, Winchester Staball Match. The max I had loaded was 45.5 gr with a Hornady 3072, 180gr BTSP. I did not have a single malfunction of any kind. The first 5 rounds I fired on gas setting 3 before I realized it was on 3. I then turned it back to setting 2, which is where I have been mainly shooting in the past. I then fired the rest of the 30 rounds without a single failure of any kind. The brass was Federal brass on its second firing (first reload). I do see some markings where the extractor is damaging the rim. I'll do some more shooting with a slightly faster powder like AR Comp or IMR 3031 and see how it does. It does seem to be better than it was before. It does seem like this is going to be a brass eater no matter what, but that's acceptable. Only getting 2-3 reloads off brass seems like a fair trade for loosing 2 pounds over more traditional 308 semi autos.

Unrelated, has anyone had luck with Staball Match powder yet? This is the second time I've tried it, and the second time I've been fully disappointed in the accuracy. I was using CCI 200 primers. I'm going to give Federal 215 magnum a try next time.

Front side of the rim?

Depends on what you consider the front.

It's the inside of the rim, as though the extractor is pulling on it.

Without going into it here, worst week of my life - and will likely be so for the rest of my life.   I needed the distraction; and had some time late this afternoon.   Loads themselves were loaded many weeks prior - so they themselves should be fine.   Took the SFAR out and the chrony.

And for the most part, my loads were fine, and things went well.  With some decent groups with some of the loads.   Then I decided to test out some "Just like Ramshot TAC" powder loads that were in the box of test rounds.  TAC is a fast, so of course this was under a fairly light 6.5 Bullet.



"similar to TAC" - my ass!



3570 fps out of a 20" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel is some impressive shit.  Who needs 6.8Fury??  

Ripped the rim right off, and blew the primer out.  I had to knock the casing out with a cleaning rod.  But if you were wondering just how strong the SFAR bolt and barrel extension are - I'm going to say "pretty darned strong"  

I ran another 30 rounds of other ammo after this, that ran great.

Is this a bulk .mil equivalent pull down type powder?

Holy pressure spike, Batman!

Probably pulldown powder from American Reloading

Right, MP440.

So, according to Gordon's Reloading tool (which is only so good - all of those tool's tend to get spotty once you are outside the data-set they curve-fit to, but sure).  Anyway, according to Gordon's, to get 3570 FPS for an 85 gr Sierra bullet in a 2.6" round with Ramshot TAC, that would take a 50gr charge (I was 5 grains less then that, at 45), and gave a peak pressure of 76100 psi.  That pressure estimate seems believable enough.     2421 ft-lb muzzle energy btw.  

Running 107 SMK's with this powder, I again saw velocities notably higher than expected, and in that case the last 2 steps on my ladder test I didn't even fire, firing 3050 fps was plenty good, and the case heads were starting to show pressure and ejector brass deformation from rotation.  

I picked up a boatload (thousands) of 16 cent 129 gr Hornady SP's, for plinking ammo (*sigh* ...)   Anyway, for those, I'm running MP570, and as USUALLY typical (usually), that powder is a bit weaker than stated, and so I'll need to go back and bump it up a bit.  Couldn't really get 1 MOA, but I could get 1.5 level MOA pretty decently, which isn't so bad for 35 cent 6.5 Creedmoor plinksters.  I'm actually decently happy, though for whatever reason POI is 2" higher than with any other ammo at 100 yards, which is weird.  I'll return with a little more umph and see if I can get closer to the factory 2710 fps (Hornady Whitetail boxed 129 SP ammo).   But again - these are plinkers, if that costs me accuracy (I'm getting 1.3 MOA at 2600 fps), I'll probably just keep them slowish - we'll see.

I’ve got 32lbs of MP-625 to load 308/7mag because it was so cheap and likely last me the rest of my life. It’s supposedly Ramshot Hunter equivalent and your tale is s good precaution to make sure I start a bit lower then. Glad you saw the signs before a kaboom and less powder to get the velocity you need is not a bad thing!

Holy smokes!  That's fast.

That's scary stuff. It sure doesn't seem like the gamble of pulldown powder is worth the squeeze. Not that new powder can't be unsafe, but I can only remember a single recall in the last 10 years. I've already read 3 threads on this forum about pulldown powder and bullets causing dangerous situations in the last few months.

I did some more shooing, and thankfully did not experience anything unexpected.

I reloaded the same Federal brass I used in the last trip, loaded with the same powder, except used magnum primers. I found some CCI 250 I forgot about, so I used those. I did 3 loads of the same Win Staball Match, 11 rounds each. All 33 rounds functioned perfectly. In keeping with the earlier trend, one of the cases did develop a burr that will need to be knocked off. So it does seem just like before about 1 in 50 cases comes out with a burr that will need to be knocked off with a file or something before reloading. This was the 2nd reload (3rd firing) of this brass. All the brass looks in good shape, and I see no reason why I can't load these for a third reload, so that's exactly what I'm going to do. Nothing is showing any crazy extractor marks, and the gas setting is still on 2. Just to be consistent I'm going to load this brass for a third, and likely the final time with the same Staball Match powder. I will also load some fresh brass with IMR 3031. If all continues to look good, I will consider this rifle fixed.

Edit: I forgot to say that even with the magnum primers the accuracy with Staball Match still sucked bad. I'm going to load a previously good load to make sure it isn't the rifle that is causing the issues.

I fired the SFAR even more today. For clarity I am cleaning the rifle, including the chamber every time I am shooting it, same as I do every rifle. I am not stripping the bolt every time, only the barrel and chamber, as well as a wipe off of the bolt. I will strip and clean the bolt today. I do not know how this rifle would perform with hundreds of rounds without cleaning.

Today I fired a number of different loads with three different powders. I used IMR 3031 which is about as fast a powder as anyone uses in 308, then AR Comp, which is slightly slower, then more Staball Match which is slower yet, and about as slow as anyone uses in 308, at least 308 semi autos. I fired 52 rounds total today all on gas setting 2, and I did not have a single failure of any kind.

I loaded the same batch of Federal brass as before with Staball Match, so this is the third reload on that brass. All that brass still looks ok, and would be plenty safe for a fourth reload. I am going to retire that batch just because I am sure there is damage to the rim that I do not have the ability to measure or quantify. None of the brass is getting visibly warped/bent rims like it was before I sent it back to Ruger. There are marks on the inside of the rims where the extractor is pulling, and while I'm sure it is bending the rim somewhat, it is not to a degree that concerns me. So at least in this instance, with this powder, I was able to load this brass 3 times without fail. Functionally i see no reason I couldn't load it a fourth, accuracy wise I have to assume it's best to retire it now.

With the AR comp and IMR 3031 I was using once fired brass.

Speaking of accuracy, this rifle is shooting the same as it was before i sent it to Ruger. I shot a known good load today of AR Comp, and it shot pretty much the same as it did before with a 10 shot group a smidge under 2" at 100 yards. I did try more Staball Match today, this time with a different bullet, the 180gr SST, but it did not really change much. Staball Match is still shooting poorly of ballpark 2 1/2" to 3" 100 yard groups. I also tried IMR 3031 today, and it too functioned just fine with gas setting 2 over a range of powder charges. I was shooting the Hornady 178gr ELD-X, and loaded from 36.9 gr to 39.0 gr. All charges shot phenomenal. This is easily the most accurate load I've tested yet in this rifle. The worst was the starting load at 1 3/4" 5 shot group. The best was the max load at a 1 3/8" 5 shot group. The others were right at 1 1/2" 5 shot groups. Very consistent on accuracy. All powder charges were thrown straight from the measure into the case, none were weighted on a scale, other than to check the powder measure setting. So for anyone with an SFAR 308, give this load a try.

Federal brass
Federal 210
37.5gr to 39.0 gr IMR 3031
178gr ELD-x
2.840" OAL


I'm quite happy, i have well over 100 rounds through the rifle since getting it back from Ruger and have not had a single failure of any kind. No failures to feed, extract. No unreasonable damage to cases. No cases stuck in the chamber. I'm convinced now the rifle is reliable. My next step is going to be trimming the handguard to clearance the gas block and see if that does anything for accuracy.

Some loads it appears to like.  Can't figure out lot 65-171A  I got a LOT more velocity out of the FC brass than the others, and the accuracy was way better too.  I don't know what to make of that - and am wondering if I did some sort of experimental error or something...

It looks like the first time you ever tried Federal brass. I don't know anything about 6.5 creedmoor, but it could be as simple as having less case volume. In 308, Federal brass is pretty close in capacity to Hornady. I don't know anything about S&B brass. It could also be a difference in temperature, depending on how it was measured. I've seen temp swings of 50 fps from ammo sitting in the sun.

As for the accuracy, it's a sample of one, you can't say much about it. Looking at your other data though, it does seem S&B isn't performing as well for you. Are these single 5 shot groups? I averaged your S&B groups with 140gr bullets, and get 1.68". I averaged your groups with Hornady brass and 140gr bullets and get 1.44". In every example I see where you shot the same exact load with both S&B and Hornady brass side by side, the Hornady brass provided better accuracy. It could be that FC also will outperform your S&B brass with more testing. Despite internet lore, FC brass is actually a solid choice. It's not Lapua or Alpha, or anything like that, but it's not bad.

I cut some clearance around my gas block today. Its kind of annoying just how close Ruger was to perfection on the handguard. All they need to do is move that one support 1/4" forward and cut a little notch in it so you can still read the gas setting. There's more than enough room above the gas block, one more machining step to cut the top like I did and that's all it would take. I was able to do this fairly quickly with a Dremel and a couple files, and now have ballpark .075" clearance on the side on one spot, and a ton on the top. My handguard was not touching to begin with, so I don't expect any accuracy improvement, but I feel al lot better now that tripods, bipods, slings, etc. aren't going to be an issue. I have to flex it pretty hard to make it touch now.

I actually agree on FC Brass.  Their 223 brass is poor, but all the rest is actually not bad.  And my favorite 9mm, is FC

Have you checked the case capacity? The easiest way I have found is to take a few, maybe 5 cases of each brand, size them (use fired brass), then trim them. It doesn't much matter how you size, or trim, as long as all the cases are the same on the outside. I then seat a new primer to seal the primer hole. Don't fret, you don't have to waste the primers. Pop those primers back out and let them dry, they will still fire. Maybe don't use them on your most serious ammo.

After you have prepped brass, weigh them on a scale. You can either tare a scale to each case, or what I do is weigh each case, and write the weight on the side. Then fill them up with plain old water to the case mouth. Because of surface tension it takes a little nuance to get a perfect level with the case mouth. A paper towel works good to lower the level a little. Once they are level with the top, weight them again, and the difference is your H2O case capacity, ideally weighed in grains. Once you check all the cases you did, average them, and see if there is a difference in capacity. Small differences like .3 grains is nothing. To get a 50 fps change you would be looking at 1 grain or more most likely.

If not careful, its easy to vertically string with this light gun (Top Left).  Bottom left group is 1/2 MOA.

Gong range run with the 20" 6.5 Creedmoor.  It did quite well, pounding the 800 yard gong with ease.  And a pleasant gun to shoot.  Using my 40 cent reloads of Midway cheap 140 gr "2nds" (which are remarkably good), and with AM Real 65 Stabal repack and ~8 cent factory 2nds primers.  

One problem I did have was jams.  After about 100 rounds, and the day got warmer, and the gun got warmer, and I switched to Hornady brass (so it's one of those), thr gun had a handful of extraction and ejection issues.  The casings would be stuck. And I had to motor them out.  Odd.  That's not a gas issue, nor an extractor or ejector issue.  That's a sticky chamber issue.  I haven't been having that problem before, so I'm going to give it a good cleaning and scope chamber anew.  

Casings were relatively clean, FWIW.

Once again, that 6.5CM barrel gets hot FAST.  Just the nature of the round.

Here's the borescans of the barrel.  6.5 Creedmoor - at 565 rounds

First 3 images show the chamber itself.  which to me looks fine, I don't see any tool marks or other "sticky" indicators that will cause mechanical brass drag issues.  
 



Next imagers show the throat/lead area.  

First 2 image irks me, as this land appears to go all the way to the chamber, with the next image being rotated and showing no land there.  Meaning the bullet can start with an offset and uneven engagement of the lands.  This doesn't appear to be burning me too bad on paper, but it's not ideal

and here's rotated to the bare spot of the throat with no lands



Next images show a bit further down the throat.  You can barely see some cracking starting, but still looks very good.  As exepected.


This image is the gas port.  A decent amount of erosion at just 560 rounds, but 6.5CM is a hard high pressure high temperature life, so no big surprise.  This doesn't actually affect anything.




Next 2 images show the crown, which looks great.





So to summarize, mostly looks pretty good.  Some gas-port erosion, not a problem.  Great crown.  Decent cleanliness, chamber looks smooth, throat isn't cut perfect, but gun seems to be shooting well enough for what it is, so not too worried about it.  If this were a $4000 1/4MOA spec bolt action, not acceptable.  For a light weight semi-auto ~1-1.5MOA spec, seems to be working fine.

It looks like you have a decent amount of carbon build up. Is there any chance you have a carbon ring built up that might be causing elevated pressure, and resulting sticky extraction?

I whipped up an SFAR barrel chambered in 375 Auto Mag a few days ago (for personal use).  I cut it from a Pac-Nor 1:8 Super Match blank, 12" long, Tromix SFAR barrel extension, pistol gas, .875" gas block journal, with a Bowers Vers375 suppressor.
It works surprisingly well firing Maker Bullets 400 grain Subsonic Expanders.

Tony

P.S. I registered my SFAR lower as an SBR.

How'd that sound?

That is awesome , Tony.  
I was getting ready to speculate on the sectional density of that beast when I remembered ; with .375 , the SD is darn near the weight. So , SD of .400 .

I've only fired it indoors into a steel bullet trap, so I'm not sure on the sound yet.  However, it will push the 400gr Maker bullet to 1000fps on 12.8 grains of H110 (12" barrel), whereas my 18" 375 Raptor needs 15.1gr of H110 to get to 1000fps.  If the Raptor had the same 12" barrel, it would probably take 17 grains or so.  With that in mind, the 375 AMP should be a bit quieter than the Raptor given the same barrel lengths used.

The load I am actually using in the 375 AMP is a mere 11.7 grains of VV N-105, in order to get the 400gr Maker to 1000fps.  That should produce considerably less noise than the Raptor.  Another benefit of the 375 AMP running subsonic, is the case fill is at 100%, whereas the fill for the Raptor is less than good.  I'm not sure the exact fill percentage, but the powder is sloshing around pretty bad in the over-size Raptor case.

Tony

Thank you for the info!!!

Deleted

Has anyone put an A2 stock on a SFAR? If so, what had to change? I mean other than the obvious!

No, but I like your idea and plan.  I think it would look good in an A2 type configuration.

Be aware it's a non-standard tube.   You could just try a rifle tube and buffer, and see what happens, bit ai think it's throw is supposed to be a touch longer than a rifle tube will let it go.    Maybe try it with an A5 buffer and a spacer (quarters?)

I may be wrong  but I thought it was a VLTOR length tube with a rifle spring paired with a carbine buffer???

I think an SFAR buffer tube is close to a VLTOR (i.e. A5), but not sure it's quite spot-on, I don't know.   But if you were going to try it with a rifle length tube and stock, a rifle buffer will be just a bit too long.  So the longer VLTOR (A5) buffer might get you close, but might be too short.  Adjusting with a a few quarters to get the dimensions right, might well work.

Is the SFAR popular enough now that they are going to stick around unlike the DPMS Gen 2? Is the SFAR going to get enough aftermarket support?

In my opinion - yes.  Also, Ruger is well known good support, and will still be around 100 years from now.

Thanks for the reply I have been waiting to purchase one and I wanted to make sure I could get spare wear parts.

Ruger is great about having parts and servicing older guns.  What I don't like is they don't sell spares, you have to send a gun in for repair.  So it's a little bitter with the sweet.  Luckily the SFAR is fairly inexpensive when you could get a second rifle to use as spares.

Nobody knows the future but it wouldn’t surprise me if Ruger has already made 10X what DPMS did G2’s.

I would have to think that's the case. The G2 is so strange to me, it came out just months before the whole fiasco where they left Minnesota. They had to have seen that coming, I don't know why they released it when they did. I honestly never even heard of the G2 until years later when DPMS's reputation wasn't that great. Back when I was first looking for a semi-auto 308, probably 2018ish, there were no real light options. There was the FN SCAR17, but even then it was very expensive, way outside my price range. The AR10/gen 1 was still the most popular option at the time. I don't even know that I looked that much at the G2. It's really only marginally lighter. Maybe they are great, I don't know that I've ever personally handled a DPMS G2. At the time though, the Springfield M1A was cheaper than a G2, and it isn't that different in size or weight, maybe 1/2 pound more.

The Ruger SFAR really got popular fast. It shouldn't be a big surprise why either. I regularly see others shooting SFAR's at the range now.

Has anyone ever been able to confirm the buffer tube size? is it a completely proprietary part or an A5 tube?

$905 for a 20" 6.5CM SFAR
https://lockedloaded.com/product-details?id=1051210&utm_source=wikiarms&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=searchlistings&utm_campaign=wikiarmslistings

Even PSA with their old tech PA10, can't keep up with that price (not in 6.5CM).

And backed by the Ruger name.   If you ever wanted a big-boy AR, get the SFAR.  Latest best technology, ridiculously low sub $1k price point.

My understanding is that they were working on it for years and it just unfortunately was timed with their demise.

I am finally ready to get a big boy AR and initially dismissed the SFAR due to all of reliability issues that I had heard of and instead focused on he SIG 716i. I am now giving the SFAR another look. Do you all think Ruger has worked out the kinks yet or would it be like a 50/50 chance of getting a lemon?

I would be looking at a 16" .308

Problems seem to be basically a non issue to me. If you do have problems it's Ruger and they will take care of you.

I haven't picked one up yet, but I will soon, and I just budgeted to upgrade to a Riflespeed gas block anyway. When you can pick the gun up for under $1000, an extra $200 to maximize reliability means the platform is still very affordable.

So I picked up a 16 inch 308 SFAR today. Thanks for all the reply's. Need a scope and mount next.

There's people who have had some reliability issues, but it doesn't seem to be a design flaw. I said earlier something along the lines of there seems to be three kinds of SFAR owners. Those who got a good one and are happy, those who got one with a problem, sent it back to Ruger who fixed it, and are happy, and those who got one with a problem and decided to modify the gun and never got it to work right. I bought mine less than 6 months ago, it had a rough chamber, it was fixed by Ruger, and it has not had a single issue of any kind since then. It is one of my favorite rifles for sure.

I'm not sure I would 100% discredit a big AR10/gen1 though. I have not seen where anyone has yet got what I consider impressive accuracy from an SFAR. It is possible the Ruger barrel quality isn't up to par, or maybe it's something else. It's still better than an out of the box Springfield M1A, but it doesn't seem to be as good as even cheaper AR10's. I've tried a number of bullets and loads in mine, and the accuracy of my SFAR seems to be topped out at about 1 1/2" 5-shot groups at 100 yards. If Kreiger or someone top level like that offers replacement 308 barrels for these, I might give it a try, but until then, it's a 1.5 to 2 moa rifle, which is not that bad. So many people are spoiled by todays AR15's, but the idea of a sub MOA out of the box semi auto is a very recent one. If you wanted to shoot targets, or take longer range shots for hunting, then I would still consider an AR10. If you are ok with the range limitation, the SFAR is great.

The cheapest Sig 716i I see is about $300 more than the Rugers are going for. So you could buy a Ruger, a riflespeed gas block and a new rail, for the same price as the Sig.

If the problem is barrel or chamber, just send it back to Ruger.

It seems highly likely that you can make the Ruger reliable, probably for less money. You won't be able to make that pig of a Sig light.

That's been my experience as well. The barrel isn't the most accurate. In my limited experience with one rifle, match rated ammo shoots the same as M80.

I must have received a good one as I have zero issues with mine. But only have about 200 rounds through it. Have not tried my suppressor yet. I have the 20 inch with a Arken 4-16 scope on it. Loves 168 A-Max. Cloverleaf’s at 100 yards. Also have other AR 10’s. Sure can tell the difference in weight picking up my regular AR 10’s. Am hoping these rifles longevity is great. Do wish Ruger would sell parts though. I built a 16 inch AR 10 not long ago that I regret due to the weight. It was cheaper to build than buying another SFAR but with 16 inch barrel. I put a match faxon barrel on it. Crazy accurate. Put my thermal on it. Also shoots 168 A Max great. I’d recommend SFAR to anyone wanting a AR 10.

Reloads or factory loaded? If reloads, please share your load data.

Have you tried any other ammo? If so, what was the accuracy?

Thanks