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Posted: 1/5/2022 10:40:18 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Person hit won't know the difference. That's the point. We've accepted the fact that there is no practical difference between 9mm and .45acp. Round count tends to win gunfights. So, if you can have a round that is "good enough" and jam more of them in the same size pistol....that is a good thing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if this is some new wonder round being introduced at SHOT show and a few retailers jumped the gun. Found something saying the 100 grain ammo runs around 1200fps... so basically it's a smaller diameter 9mm... and for what? Dang. What a waste. .30 at 1200 is better than .35 at 1250?  Person hit won't know the difference. That's the point. We've accepted the fact that there is no practical difference between 9mm and .45acp. Round count tends to win gunfights. So, if you can have a round that is "good enough" and jam more of them in the same size pistol....that is a good thing. Yep. Though I’m not convinced a .31” 100Gn pistol bullet can reliably meet the “good enough” standard. The clothed gel test looks acceptable. But they have not published the other tests. Why? |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 10:41:00 AM EDT
[#2]
All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point.
45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 10:45:37 AM EDT
[#3]
It probably an improvement over 380 but won’t work in 380 sized guns.
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Posted: 1/5/2022 10:53:22 AM EDT
[#4]
The other possibility is carry guns with the same capacity as current 9mm versions but less thick in the hand and in carry.
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Posted: 1/5/2022 10:59:36 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 10:59:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I make an observation, when Smith introduced the EZ line, many gun guys said " but why "? They were not interested. The pistols however sold like hotcakes. Hard core gun guys were not the target market. I think this is the same. An easy to shoot round with an easy to shoot gun for women and elderly. I think my wife will like it. The marketing materials don't say anything about recoil, and this thing makes as much energy as 9mm with ~40% more chamber pressure. I wouldn't expect this to be an easy shooting mouse gun cartridge. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:02:03 AM EDT
[#7]
It looks like it is the .327 Federal Magnum of the automatic pistol world. Less recoil, smaller package, same oomph. I wish it well and hope it succeeds. I personally like more options and variety. The two advertised guns it is chambered in does not interest me.
What does is the idea of conversion barrels and the ability to shoot this in guns like my Beretta 92FS Centurion, GLOCK 17, or S&W Model 6906 with a conversion barrel. Or properly built handguns that aren't just a rechambered 1911 or S&W EZ. Now, my guess is that they're trying to market this the same way as .327 Federal Magnum. A lower recoil cartridge for non-shooters, women, and the elderly. Hence why the S&W EZ is one of the guns chambered in it. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:06:28 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The marketing materials don't say anything about recoil, and this thing makes as much energy as 9mm with ~40% more chamber pressure. I wouldn't expect this to be an easy shooting mouse gun cartridge. I know it's a different comparison, but my .243 is a hell of a lot softer recoiling than a .308 out of the same make/model rifle. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:06:51 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. Though I’m not convinced a .31” 100Gn pistol bullet can reliably meet the “good enough” standard. I'm dubious as well, but not enough to come right out and say they "can't do it" either. A fast all-copper HP like a Barnes XPB just might be able to meet the criteria. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:21:58 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:22:28 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The marketing materials don't say anything about recoil, and this thing makes as much energy as 9mm with ~40% more chamber pressure. I wouldn't expect this to be an easy shooting mouse gun cartridge. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If I make an observation, when Smith introduced the EZ line, many gun guys said " but why "? They were not interested. The pistols however sold like hotcakes. Hard core gun guys were not the target market. I think this is the same. An easy to shoot round with an easy to shoot gun for women and elderly. I think my wife will like it. The marketing materials don't say anything about recoil, and this thing makes as much energy as 9mm with ~40% more chamber pressure. I wouldn't expect this to be an easy shooting mouse gun cartridge. It’s going to be loud? |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:27:45 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm dubious as well, but not enough to come right out and say they "can't do it" either. A fast all-copper HP like a Barnes XPB just might be able to meet the criteria. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yep. Though I’m not convinced a .31” 100Gn pistol bullet can reliably meet the “good enough” standard. I'm dubious as well, but not enough to come right out and say they "can't do it" either. A fast all-copper HP like a Barnes XPB just might be able to meet the criteria. It may be a marginal performer like short barrel .38SPC and 380. You can design a specific bullet to perform adequately most of the time in a specific test. But fails the other test. Will it over expand and under penetrate in bare gel or when fired through t-shirt material? Will the hollow point collapse when fired through sheet metal or auto glass, essentially turning it into a non expanding .31 FMJ? |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:31:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It may be a marginal performer like short barrel .38SPC and 380. You can design a specific bullet to perform adequately most of the time in a specific test. But fails the other test. Will it over expand and under penetrate in bare gel or when fired through t-shirt material? Will the hollow point collapse when fired through sheet metal or auto glass, essentially turning it into a non expanding .31 FMJ? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yep. Though I’m not convinced a .31” 100Gn pistol bullet can reliably meet the “good enough” standard. I'm dubious as well, but not enough to come right out and say they "can't do it" either. A fast all-copper HP like a Barnes XPB just might be able to meet the criteria. It may be a marginal performer like short barrel .38SPC and 380. You can design a specific bullet to perform adequately most of the time in a specific test. But fails the other test. Will it over expand and under penetrate in bare gel or when fired through t-shirt material? Will the hollow point collapse when fired through sheet metal or auto glass, essentially turning it into a non expanding .31 FMJ? TBD I am interested in getting answers to those questions as well. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:32:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Slightly better capacity and it will penetrate well because of the weight of the .312" bullets it's going to have good sectional density, which for a 115gr .312" is the same as .355" 147gr (but higher velocity) and the 100gr .312 is a bit higher sectional density than the 124gr .355" 9mm but again, faster. Pressure is pretty high but with more steel around the case (because it's smaller), it shouldn't make any difference. Recoil should be a little bit less than 9mm and apparently since that's one factor that makes the 9mm great, I guess, is it's lesser recoil, this thing should be a hit if they can make it affordable. It won't ever be 9mm cheap but if it's reasonable then sure, especially if we can get more small guns chambered in it, not a big fan of S&W autos.
Funny how some say the 9mm better because it punches bigger holes even if it has slightly less capacity but they don't afford the same to the .40 S&W over 9mm. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:36:34 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Slightly better capacity and it will penetrate well because of the weight of the .312" bullets it's going to have good sectional density, which for a 115gr .312" is the same as .355" 147gr (but higher velocity) and the 100gr .312 is a bit higher sectional density than the 124gr .355" 9mm but again, faster. Pressure is pretty high but with more steel around the case (because it's smaller), it shouldn't make any difference. Recoil should be a little bit less than 9mm and apparently since that's one factor that makes the 9mm great, I guess, is it's lesser recoil, this thing should be a hit if they can make it affordable. It won't ever be 9mm cheap but if it's reasonable then sure, especially if we can get more small guns chambered in it, not a big fan of S&W autos. Funny how some say the 9mm better because it punches bigger holes even if it has slightly less capacity but they don't afford the same to the .40 S&W over 9mm. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:40:34 AM EDT
[#16]
More rounds, less recoil, still rimless centerfire meeting FBI standards.
I'm interested. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:48:23 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Slightly better capacity and it will penetrate well because of the weight of the .312" bullets it's going to have good sectional density, which for a 115gr .312" is the same as .355" 147gr (but higher velocity) and the 100gr .312 is a bit higher sectional density than the 124gr .355" 9mm but again, faster. Pressure is pretty high but with more steel around the case (because it's smaller), it shouldn't make any difference. Recoil should be a little bit less than 9mm and apparently since that's one factor that makes the 9mm great, I guess, is it's lesser recoil, this thing should be a hit if they can make it affordable. It won't ever be 9mm cheap but if it's reasonable then sure, especially if we can get more small guns chambered in it, not a big fan of S&W autos. Funny how some say the 9mm better because it punches bigger holes even if it has slightly less capacity but they don't afford the same to the .40 S&W over 9mm. I haven’t seen anyone say 9mm is better because it punches bigger holes in this thread. 9mm is adequate because of it’s known performance through multiple barrier types with a wide variety of common ammunition. 40 is also adequate. 45 is also adequate. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:49:13 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? What if we compare it to a bunch of 9mm loads? https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ I slapped these numbers in Excel and did a little math. There are 52 loads tested here. For each, there's a 5 shot average diameter and a 5 shot average depth. The average expansion for these 52 loads is .515" with a median expansion of .52". The average penetration for these 52 loads is 17.4" with a median penetration of 18.1". Federal is advertising the .30SC HST load at .530" expansion and 15.5" of penetration. That's better expansion than most 9mm loads with penetration that's still more than adequate. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:49:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Slightly better capacity and it will penetrate well because of the weight of the .312" bullets it's going to have good sectional density, which for a 115gr .312" is the same as .355" 147gr (but higher velocity) and the 100gr .312 is a bit higher sectional density than the 124gr .355" 9mm but again, faster. Pressure is pretty high but with more steel around the case (because it's smaller), it shouldn't make any difference. Recoil should be a little bit less than 9mm and apparently since that's one factor that makes the 9mm great, I guess, is it's lesser recoil, this thing should be a hit if they can make it affordable. It won't ever be 9mm cheap but if it's reasonable then sure, especially if we can get more small guns chambered in it, not a big fan of S&W autos. Funny how some say the 9mm better because it punches bigger holes even if it has slightly less capacity but they don't afford the same to the .40 S&W over 9mm. This is the comparison that matters. This does for 9mm what 9mm does for .40, but without the loss in momentum that you take going from .40 to 9. If we accept that hits win fights, and that vital organ perforation is the primary qualifier for a hit, and that .30 SC is just as capable of perforating those organs as 9, more chances to make a hit is always better. I'm in. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:50:21 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More rounds, less recoil, still rimless centerfire meeting FBI standards. I'm interested. Link to testing to FBI standards? Note, standards is plural. federal only published one test that it appear to perform acceptable in without publishing to other tests which are also important https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/default.aspx |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:52:44 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if we compare it to a bunch of 9mm loads? https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ I slapped these numbers in Excel and did a little math. There are 52 loads tested here. For each, there's a 5 shot average diameter and a 5 shot average depth. The average expansion for these 52 loads is .515" with a median expansion of .52". The average penetration for these 52 loads is 17.4" with a median penetration of 18.1". Federal is advertising the .30SC HST load at .530" expansion and 15.5" of penetration. That's better expansion than most 9mm loads with penetration that's still more than adequate. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? What if we compare it to a bunch of 9mm loads? https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ I slapped these numbers in Excel and did a little math. There are 52 loads tested here. For each, there's a 5 shot average diameter and a 5 shot average depth. The average expansion for these 52 loads is .515" with a median expansion of .52". The average penetration for these 52 loads is 17.4" with a median penetration of 18.1". Federal is advertising the .30SC HST load at .530" expansion and 15.5" of penetration. That's better expansion than most 9mm loads with penetration that's still more than adequate. You can’t compare clear gel to real gel directly. Fortunately you can go to the federal LE website and get valid test results for many of their products if you are really interested in seeing how it compares. https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:56:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s going to be loud? Yep. I don't think buying this 50kpsi round for gramma because the recoil is lower is going to work out well. I predict two very distinct levels of ammo: 1. Push as close to 9mm terminal ballistics as possible for the operators. 2. The friendliest loads that cycle the action for 'practice' and for a lot of people to leave in the gun. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:56:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Base diameters: 9x19 - .391" .380acp - .374" 7.65x20 - .336" Basically, we're looking at a cartridge that's ~15% smaller in diameter than 9mm. Given that the standard Shield EZ 380 holds 8 rounds and this one apparently holds 10, that tracks. Now imagine roughly... 18 rounds in a G19 13 rounds in a P365 21 rounds in a G17 or Beretta 92 8 rounds in a G42 12 rounds in a LCP Max All with flush fit mags. This could get fun. ETA: had the G43 and G42 MG offerings confused. The G43 adds a tad bit of length. I’m an idiot. Read that all again and I wasn’t adding anything to the conversation 
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Posted: 1/5/2022 11:57:55 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: It looks like it is the .327 Federal Magnum of the automatic pistol world. Less recoil, smaller package, same oomph. I wish it well and hope it succeeds. I personally like more options and variety. The two advertised guns it is chambered in does not interest me. What does is the idea of conversion barrels and the ability to shoot this in guns like my Beretta 92FS Centurion, GLOCK 17, or S&W Model 6906 with a conversion barrel. Or properly built handguns that aren't just a rechambered 1911 or S&W EZ. Now, my guess is that they're trying to market this the same way as .327 Federal Magnum. A lower recoil cartridge for non-shooters, women, and the elderly. Hence why the S&W EZ is one of the guns chambered in it. This. I don't have time to read every reply in 5 pages but most are missing the point. What is the largest growing segment of new shooters? What is the number one complaint from that segment? What gun is this being introduced in? A: Women, recoil and racking the slide, S&W M&P Shield EZ, which is marketed towards people for self defense who have trouble shooting normal pistols. I think it might sell well in that market. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:09:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could see gun gamers adopting this. +2 Capacity with a cartridge they can load down for 2 Gun or 3 Gun or up to make major for USPSA with less worry about blowing your gun up. As mentioned above it won’t be allowed in USPSA as it too small. 9mm is the minimum caliber for every division except Limited which is 40. A 100 grain bullet at 1650fps minimum to make major would be a screamer. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:09:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It looks like it is the .327 Federal Magnum of the automatic pistol world. Less recoil, smaller package, same oomph. I wish it well and hope it succeeds. I personally like more options and variety. The two advertised guns it is chambered in does not interest me. What does is the idea of conversion barrels and the ability to shoot this in guns like my Beretta 92FS Centurion, GLOCK 17, or S&W Model 6906 with a conversion barrel. Or properly built handguns that aren't just a rechambered 1911 or S&W EZ. Now, my guess is that they're trying to market this the same way as .327 Federal Magnum. A lower recoil cartridge for non-shooters, women, and the elderly. Hence why the S&W EZ is one of the guns chambered in it. You summed it up well there - my thoughts mirror yours. If that marketing assumption holds true, then, physics being what they are, I am prepared for people to complain about (gasp!) recoil. Same energy as a 9mm in a smaller pistol is going to be a bit spicy for some recoil averse consumers. Just wait for recoil-averse folks to be disappointed, firearms companies put their Top Men on the job  Behold! A savior emerges! The newest round in the Hornady Lite lineup, .30 Super Carry Reduced Recoil™. Featuring less recoil and the same stopping power as the famed .380 Auto, a round designed by John Moses Browning himself and trusted by experts for self defense since its introduction in 1908. Now, you can get the most up to date technology in self-defensive cartridges without withstanding unnecessary recoil! |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:16:42 PM EDT
[#27]
How is 350 Legend and 6.5 Creedmoor doing?
I think those are bellwethers for new rounds. 30 Super… Does it do something better? Does it have a niche? Does it solve a problem? If two otherwise identical guns were on the shelf, at the same price, in both characters, which would you choose? Those are the questions that drive adoption. Does it do something better? : Maybe. Until we get to see the performance, it may be a better cartridge than 9mm in some applications. Thats a big BIG if. Does it have a niche? : Probably. It’s a 10-20% increase of ammo capacity in a handgun, which is always welcome. That means a 10rd pocket gun that even smaller in ban states. It makes for higher capacity larger handguns, which people will always prefer. Does it solve a problem? : No. it may have a few years ago before the introduction of the P365. 10rds in a small pocket gun is pretty revolutionary. So the pressure to have a high capacity small auto that isn’t a .25 isn’t as high as it once was. If the physical guns are 0.05” thinner too, that could be a nice selling point. Would I pick this gun? In a pocket pistol, yes, probably. In a full sized gun… I don’t know, I have a lot of 9mm… if I can get a conversion barrel and mags for my gun… then probably. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:18:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can’t compare clear gel to real gel directly. Fortunately you can go to the federal LE website and get valid test results for many of their products if you are really interested in seeing how it compares. https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? What if we compare it to a bunch of 9mm loads? https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ I slapped these numbers in Excel and did a little math. There are 52 loads tested here. For each, there's a 5 shot average diameter and a 5 shot average depth. The average expansion for these 52 loads is .515" with a median expansion of .52". The average penetration for these 52 loads is 17.4" with a median penetration of 18.1". Federal is advertising the .30SC HST load at .530" expansion and 15.5" of penetration. That's better expansion than most 9mm loads with penetration that's still more than adequate. You can’t compare clear gel to real gel directly. Fortunately you can go to the federal LE website and get valid test results for many of their products if you are really interested in seeing how it compares. https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ Federal gives us two other points of reference on their marketing site for .30SC... .380 99gr HST: 9.95" penetration and .588" expansion. 9mm 124gr HST: 14.5" penetration and .571" expansion. The Lucky Gunner results for those loads are... .380 99gr HST: 22.5" penetration and .35" expansion (these fail to open) 9mm 124gr HST: 18.3" penetration and .61" expansion So... split the difference? Unless the .30SC HST loads fail to expand in 3rd party testing, they're right where they need to be. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:23:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could see gun gamers adopting this. +2 Capacity with a cartridge they can load down for 2 Gun or 3 Gun or up to make major for USPSA with less worry about blowing your gun up. @jmarkma it doesn’t meet minimum case size or bullet diameter, at least without more rule changes. Current minimum is 9x19 case and .355 diameter bullet |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:27:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Federal needs spell check on their new product page. This new caliver may give me more configrence!
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:28:05 PM EDT
[#31]
I could see this potentially doing worse against auto glass and better against auto bodies. I have no reason to believe it would show its ass in one or another test.
Using a recoil calculator and assuming the same gun weight, same velocity, a 25% reduction in powder charge and 24gr bullet weight reduction the 30 had 30% less recoil than 9mm. Could be fun on auto. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:29:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I <3 .356 TSW.  All in good fun JBT 
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:29:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could see this potentially doing worse against auto glass and better against auto bodies. I have no reason to believe it would show its ass in one or another test. Using a recoil calculator and assuming the same gun weight, same velocity, a 25% reduction in powder charge and 24gr bullet weight reduction the 30 had 30% less recoil than 9mm. Could be fun on auto. That would be my concern, penetration against light barriers. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:31:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Slightly better capacity and it will penetrate well because of the weight of the .312" bullets it's going to have good sectional density, which for a 115gr .312" is the same as .355" 147gr (but higher velocity) and the 100gr .312 is a bit higher sectional density than the 124gr .355" 9mm but again, faster. Pressure is pretty high but with more steel around the case (because it's smaller), it shouldn't make any difference. Recoil should be a little bit less than 9mm and apparently since that's one factor that makes the 9mm great, I guess, is it's lesser recoil, this thing should be a hit if they can make it affordable. It won't ever be 9mm cheap but if it's reasonable then sure, especially if we can get more small guns chambered in it, not a big fan of S&W autos. Funny how some say the 9mm better because it punches bigger holes even if it has slightly less capacity but they don't afford the same to the .40 S&W over 9mm. That’s all valid. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:34:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/0218170005-660x371.jpg Right to left: .30 Pedersen, .30-18 Browning, 7.65x20mm French Longue, .32 ACP, 9x19mm Parabellum. Those are purdy!! 
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:41:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal gives us two other points of reference on their marketing site for .30SC... .380 99gr HST: 9.95" penetration and .588" expansion. 9mm 124gr HST: 14.5" penetration and .571" expansion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? What if we compare it to a bunch of 9mm loads? https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ I slapped these numbers in Excel and did a little math. There are 52 loads tested here. For each, there's a 5 shot average diameter and a 5 shot average depth. The average expansion for these 52 loads is .515" with a median expansion of .52". The average penetration for these 52 loads is 17.4" with a median penetration of 18.1". Federal is advertising the .30SC HST load at .530" expansion and 15.5" of penetration. That's better expansion than most 9mm loads with penetration that's still more than adequate. You can’t compare clear gel to real gel directly. Fortunately you can go to the federal LE website and get valid test results for many of their products if you are really interested in seeing how it compares. https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ Federal gives us two other points of reference on their marketing site for .30SC... .380 99gr HST: 9.95" penetration and .588" expansion. 9mm 124gr HST: 14.5" penetration and .571" expansion. In what would be best described as a heavy clothing test. My point, which you ignored, is they cherry picked one test and only compared it to one 9mm load even though they have complete test data for at least a half dozen 9mm loads they manufacture. To be a valid 9mm contender it has to perform adequately in all the FBI tests while offering it’s potential increased capacity |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:41:08 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. I don't have time to read every reply in 5 pages but most are missing the point. What is the largest growing segment of new shooters? What is the number one complaint from that segment? What gun is this being introduced in? A: Women, recoil and racking the slide, S&W M&P Shield EZ, which is marketed towards people for self defense who have trouble shooting normal pistols. I think it might sell well in that market. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It looks like it is the .327 Federal Magnum of the automatic pistol world. Less recoil, smaller package, same oomph. I wish it well and hope it succeeds. I personally like more options and variety. The two advertised guns it is chambered in does not interest me. What does is the idea of conversion barrels and the ability to shoot this in guns like my Beretta 92FS Centurion, GLOCK 17, or S&W Model 6906 with a conversion barrel. Or properly built handguns that aren't just a rechambered 1911 or S&W EZ. Now, my guess is that they're trying to market this the same way as .327 Federal Magnum. A lower recoil cartridge for non-shooters, women, and the elderly. Hence why the S&W EZ is one of the guns chambered in it. This. I don't have time to read every reply in 5 pages but most are missing the point. What is the largest growing segment of new shooters? What is the number one complaint from that segment? What gun is this being introduced in? A: Women, recoil and racking the slide, S&W M&P Shield EZ, which is marketed towards people for self defense who have trouble shooting normal pistols. I think it might sell well in that market. I don't agree with this. The marketing page makes no references to recoil. The marketing page makes no references to ease of use. But the marketing page does make 9 references to capacity. Women might be the biggest growth segment in shooters, but higher capacity compacts and micro-compacts have been the biggest shift in the handgun market in decades. This cartridge is an extension of that. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:48:28 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In what would be best described as a heavy clothing test. My point, which you ignored, is they cherry picked one test and only compared it to one 9mm load even though they have complete test data for at least a half dozen 9mm loads they manufacture. To be a valid 9mm contender it has to perform adequately in all the FBI tests while offering it’s potential increased capacity So you're saying corporate marketing can't be trusted to be a fair and objective comparison? Commie!!! |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:51:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does it do something better? Does it have a niche? Does it solve a problem? If two otherwise identical guns were on the shelf, at the same price, in both characters, which would you choose? Those are the questions that drive adoption. Does it do something better? : Maybe. Until we get to see the performance, it may be a better cartridge than 9mm in some applications. Thats a big BIG if. Does it have a niche? : Probably. It’s a 10-20% increase of ammo capacity in a handgun, which is always welcome. That means a 10rd pocket gun that even smaller in ban states. It makes for higher capacity larger handguns, which people will always prefer. Does it solve a problem? : No. it may have a few years ago before the introduction of the P365. 10rds in a small pocket gun is pretty revolutionary. So the pressure to have a high capacity small auto that isn’t a .25 isn’t as high as it once was. If the physical guns are 0.05” thinner too, that could be a nice selling point. Would I pick this gun? In a pocket pistol, yes, probably. In a full sized gun… I don’t know, I have a lot of 9mm… if I can get a conversion barrel and mags for my gun… then probably. The new criteria is the marketing!! Is it new? Is it shiny? Is it Tacticool? Do big name shooters endorse it? Have they won competitions with it? (If you use their equipment you will do at least as well) Is it available? Is it cheap? Is it in all the gun rags, with glowing reviews? 
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:54:56 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that we have no idea what the pressure specifications for this cartridge are or how it compares to 7.65 French Longue... no. No reasonable person would make that assumption. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: YEP! other than extending the cartridge case length about .010" or so, it actually is a magnum styled version of the 7.65 french Longue, as the OAL is within .08" of the original round... They elongated the case for powder capacity and shortened the bullet to achieve maximum velocity. They played with the dimensions, but any reasonable person would assume this could be fired in a French 1935s pistol with a properly reamed chamber... What's old is new again! Given that we have no idea what the pressure specifications for this cartridge are or how it compares to 7.65 French Longue... no. No reasonable person would make that assumption. 
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:56:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In what would be best described as a heavy clothing test. My point, which you ignored, is they cherry picked one test and only compared it to one 9mm load even though they have complete test data for at least a half dozen 9mm loads they manufacture. To be a valid 9mm contender it has to perform adequately in all the FBI tests while offering it’s potential increased capacity Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? What if we compare it to a bunch of 9mm loads? https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ I slapped these numbers in Excel and did a little math. There are 52 loads tested here. For each, there's a 5 shot average diameter and a 5 shot average depth. The average expansion for these 52 loads is .515" with a median expansion of .52". The average penetration for these 52 loads is 17.4" with a median penetration of 18.1". Federal is advertising the .30SC HST load at .530" expansion and 15.5" of penetration. That's better expansion than most 9mm loads with penetration that's still more than adequate. You can’t compare clear gel to real gel directly. Fortunately you can go to the federal LE website and get valid test results for many of their products if you are really interested in seeing how it compares. https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ Federal gives us two other points of reference on their marketing site for .30SC... .380 99gr HST: 9.95" penetration and .588" expansion. 9mm 124gr HST: 14.5" penetration and .571" expansion. In what would be best described as a heavy clothing test. My point, which you ignored, is they cherry picked one test and only compared it to one 9mm load even though they have complete test data for at least a half dozen 9mm loads they manufacture. To be a valid 9mm contender it has to perform adequately in all the FBI tests while offering it’s potential increased capacity I didn't ignore it. But I'm also not going to sit here and go 253 clicks deep on their web page scraping 2 data points each for 6 tests for a variety of loads. The heavy clothing test is the most relevant, and that's the one they give us. Obviously, we take the results with a grain of salt since it's marketing, but I don't expect it to take long before 3rd parties do the same test. If their results are anywhere close to what this round can do in carry guns, this round is a win. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:59:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .30 Super Carry is something you won't have to worry about. It appears to be marketed in carry guns, guns that are too short to legally sell in Canada. Super high pressure cartridge with short barrel and pop-gun ballistics. Dumb idea. Is designer of this cartridge Joe Biden? |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 12:59:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: YEP! other than extending the cartridge case length about .010" or so, it actually is a magnum styled version of the 7.65 french Longue, as the OAL is within .08" of the original round... They elongated the case for powder capacity and shortened the bullet to achieve maximum velocity. They played with the dimensions, but any reasonable person would assume this could be fired in a French 1935s pistol with a properly reamed chamber... What's old is new again! Given that we have no idea what the pressure specifications for this cartridge are or how it compares to 7.65 French Longue... no. No reasonable person would make that assumption. https://c.tenor.com/fiu8e7Jtd_EAAAAC/troy-brad-pitt.gif The number I see for French Longue is 23,931 PSI. The proof load is 31,111 PSI. Putting a 50,000 PSI cartridge in a gun made for that is extra spicy. 
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:00:49 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't ignore it. But I'm also not going to sit here and go 253 clicks deep on their web page scraping 2 data points each for 6 tests for a variety of loads. The heavy clothing test is the most relevant, and that's the one they give us. Obviously, we take the results with a grain of salt since it's marketing, but I don't expect it to take long before 3rd parties do the same test. If their results are anywhere close to what this round can do in carry guns, this round is a win. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? What if we compare it to a bunch of 9mm loads? https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ I slapped these numbers in Excel and did a little math. There are 52 loads tested here. For each, there's a 5 shot average diameter and a 5 shot average depth. The average expansion for these 52 loads is .515" with a median expansion of .52". The average penetration for these 52 loads is 17.4" with a median penetration of 18.1". Federal is advertising the .30SC HST load at .530" expansion and 15.5" of penetration. That's better expansion than most 9mm loads with penetration that's still more than adequate. You can’t compare clear gel to real gel directly. Fortunately you can go to the federal LE website and get valid test results for many of their products if you are really interested in seeing how it compares. https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ Federal gives us two other points of reference on their marketing site for .30SC... .380 99gr HST: 9.95" penetration and .588" expansion. 9mm 124gr HST: 14.5" penetration and .571" expansion. In what would be best described as a heavy clothing test. My point, which you ignored, is they cherry picked one test and only compared it to one 9mm load even though they have complete test data for at least a half dozen 9mm loads they manufacture. To be a valid 9mm contender it has to perform adequately in all the FBI tests while offering it’s potential increased capacity I didn't ignore it. But I'm also not going to sit here and go 253 clicks deep on their web page scraping 2 data points each for 6 tests for a variety of loads. The heavy clothing test is the most relevant, and that's the one they give us. Obviously, we take the results with a grain of salt since it's marketing, but I don't expect it to take long before 3rd parties do the same test. If their results are anywhere close to what this round can do in carry guns, this round is a win. I don’t know anyone that walks around wearing four layers of denim. I’d say a light clothing test is the most valid for CCW but the auto glass and steel (auto body) tests are very important as well. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:05:08 PM EDT
[#45]
What we need is full or mid size guns in 32 ACP, like a Glock 42.
many people don't want or can't handle a ridiculously small 32, 380, or 9mm, such as elderly, recoil shy women, or teens, but would be able to handle a small mid size 32. We have decently sized pistols in 22 and 9mm, but very little in between. a glock 42 in 32ACP would be very popular |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:07:52 PM EDT
[#46]
50k psi seems excessive to me.
How many other pistol cartridges are running in that territory? 9mm & .40 S&W are around 35k psi. I wonder what kind of long term wear we're going to see with putting this in pistols designed for 9mm? |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:10:38 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could see this potentially doing worse against auto glass and better against auto bodies. I have no reason to believe it would show its ass in one or another test. Using a recoil calculator and assuming the same gun weight, same velocity, a 25% reduction in powder charge and 24gr bullet weight reduction the 30 had 30% less recoil than 9mm. Could be fun on auto. Exactly what I thought. When we test 9/40/45 against cars they performed best in that order against car door and opposite of that in windshield deflection with 45 performing best and 40 being better then 9mm. The only thing is a lot of people it seems in the carry world don’t care and some specifically don’t want barrier penetration so maybe it won’t matter. I would suspect better performance against sheet metal worse against glass. Of course bullet will play a big part in that. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:14:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The number I see for French Longue is 23,931 PSI. The proof load is 31,111 PSI. Putting a 50,000 PSI cartridge in a gun made for that is extra spicy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: YEP! other than extending the cartridge case length about .010" or so, it actually is a magnum styled version of the 7.65 french Longue, as the OAL is within .08" of the original round... They elongated the case for powder capacity and shortened the bullet to achieve maximum velocity. They played with the dimensions, but any reasonable person would assume this could be fired in a French 1935s pistol with a properly reamed chamber... What's old is new again! Given that we have no idea what the pressure specifications for this cartridge are or how it compares to 7.65 French Longue... no. No reasonable person would make that assumption. https://c.tenor.com/fiu8e7Jtd_EAAAAC/troy-brad-pitt.gif The number I see for French Longue is 23,931 PSI. The proof load is 31,111 PSI. Putting a 50,000 PSI cartridge in a gun made for that is extra spicy. That's how my buddy, One-Eyed Jim, lost his hand. |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:17:25 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 50k psi seems excessive to me. How many other pistol cartridges are running in that territory? 9mm & .40 S&W are around 35k psi. I wonder what kind of long term wear we're going to see with putting this in pistols designed for 9mm? 356TSW specs to 50k. 960Rowland hits 45k. 357SIG is 40k |
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Posted: 1/5/2022 1:21:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t know anyone that walks around wearing four layers of denim. I’d say a light clothing test is the most valid for CCW but the auto glass and steel (auto body) tests are very important as well. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the comparisons to bottleneck rounds miss the point. 45Gap was at least size related but didn't gain mag cap. The best comparison is probably 30 super vs 9 = 9 vs 45. That hasn't gone so bad for 9. Yup. You get more rounds in a mag plus a slightly smaller gun. In theory you get 9mm velocity and expansion and add 4 or 6 rounds of capacity. I don’t care about velocity or energy. I want to see penetration and expansion data for all of the FBI test criteria. It’s telling that they compared it to one of the worst performing 380 loads and only one 9mm load. I expect it will outperform 380, but require a 9mm sized gun. So how does it compare to 147Gn HST? How does it compare to 124Gn +P Gold Dot? How does it compare to 127Gn +P+ SXT? What if we compare it to a bunch of 9mm loads? https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/ I slapped these numbers in Excel and did a little math. There are 52 loads tested here. For each, there's a 5 shot average diameter and a 5 shot average depth. The average expansion for these 52 loads is .515" with a median expansion of .52". The average penetration for these 52 loads is 17.4" with a median penetration of 18.1". Federal is advertising the .30SC HST load at .530" expansion and 15.5" of penetration. That's better expansion than most 9mm loads with penetration that's still more than adequate. You can’t compare clear gel to real gel directly. Fortunately you can go to the federal LE website and get valid test results for many of their products if you are really interested in seeing how it compares. https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/ Federal gives us two other points of reference on their marketing site for .30SC... .380 99gr HST: 9.95" penetration and .588" expansion. 9mm 124gr HST: 14.5" penetration and .571" expansion. In what would be best described as a heavy clothing test. My point, which you ignored, is they cherry picked one test and only compared it to one 9mm load even though they have complete test data for at least a half dozen 9mm loads they manufacture. To be a valid 9mm contender it has to perform adequately in all the FBI tests while offering it’s potential increased capacity I didn't ignore it. But I'm also not going to sit here and go 253 clicks deep on their web page scraping 2 data points each for 6 tests for a variety of loads. The heavy clothing test is the most relevant, and that's the one they give us. Obviously, we take the results with a grain of salt since it's marketing, but I don't expect it to take long before 3rd parties do the same test. If their results are anywhere close to what this round can do in carry guns, this round is a win. I don’t know anyone that walks around wearing four layers of denim. I’d say a light clothing test is the most valid for CCW but the auto glass and steel (auto body) tests are very important as well. I would venture to say a large subset of the people this will be of interest to won’t care at all. They will see a gun they can control and work and ammo someone said is good. As for the heavy clothing I like the worst case scenario when you have worst and best to look at (heavy and no clothing) and they did change specifications to better reflect real world clothing. It’s now t shirt material, button up material, fleece, and denim. Which is basically a guy wearing two shirts and a light jacket. |
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