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Quoted: Without being too rude, are you not reading any of the discussion in this thread? No, the P-63 was not “making a gun run” on the B-17. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I still think he was making a faux gun run on the bomber for the crowd, and horrendously miscalculated. There was no other reason for him to be there and approach the bomber like that. Without being too rude, are you not reading any of the discussion in this thread? No, the P-63 was not “making a gun run” on the B-17. Especially past the end of the runway where most people would not be watching when it comes to an air show. |
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The 1st NTSB briefing scheduled at 3 PM CT is starting late:
Live: NTSB give update on investigation into Dallas airshow crash |
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Quoted: Tora Tora Tora? (not a fighter i know) *Ill see myself out now* View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Do you know of many Airshows where US fighters pretend to shoot down US bombers? Tora Tora Tora? (not a fighter i know) *Ill see myself out now* Valid. Note: Mishap P-63 pilot was the Exec Officer for the Tora group. Attached File |
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Quoted: What a wonderful airplane that is! Did you build it? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Try being a low time guy looking for Model 12 coverage. Looks like I'll be self insuring... What a wonderful airplane that is! Did you build it? Prop will be here from MT and Memphis Prop around the middle of January. Paperwork for repairman certificate and registration sent in to OKC last week. I hear they are backlogged 6 months. The DAR can't do anything without the hard copy of the registration. I'm headed back to Huntsville the first of February and it'll be assholes and elbows getting it completed. I'm also still waiting on quite a few parts from Don at 92ND West Aviation. Almost ready to start covering...I'm hiring a friends wife to help. She has covered a few aircraft for others. All my Dynon stuff for both cockpits showed up a few weeks ago. It's going to be a fun spring !!! Attached File Attached File Attached File BTW...I have 3 guys that have all flown competitive aerobatics that are going to help me fly the 40 hours off and transition me into the airplane. I really had to twist their arms. Also...the guy who fixed the Stearman purchased two former German BO105's so we will be working on those. I'm very sorry about the loss of your friends.... |
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Quoted: Valid. Note: Mishap P-63 pilot was the Exec Officer for the Tora group. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/470117/92DB8FCD-0F99-45C3-B562-6D39EA26B827_jpe-2598911.JPG View Quote Ugh, they put on a hell of a show. Enjoy seeing them come out to Luke. |
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Quoted: These incidents with warbirds that are either not maintained correctly or piloted into the ground are far too common to ignore the trend. View Quote Collision with the ground is going to happen every flight, most of the time it is called landing. Air to air Collision were every day occurrences during the war. Thousands of aircraft forming up in normal English fog was more dangerous than many missions. |
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Quoted: That's fucking retarded. Most all of them have been rebuilt and all are subject to regular inspections. Collision with the ground is going to happen every flight, most of the time it is called landing. Air to air Collision were every day occurrences during the war. Thousands of aircraft forming up in normal English fog was more dangerous than many missions. View Quote This. My grandfathers best friend was in a b-24j in formation next to his, and hit a church steeple assembling in Horsem st. Faith in 1945. |
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I was at the show on Saturday as one of the living history volunteers.
We were eating at the hangar where FiFi was waiting on the taxiway to takeoff. We heard an explosion and felt the building shake. We all got up and ran outside to see the fireball and part of the B17 tail at the end of the runway. It only took a few minutes for us to figure out what aircraft were involved. The hardest part of this crash for me was that we were eating with the CAF ground crew and pilots who were taking a break during the bomber portion of the show. The reactions they had made the crash much worse for me than if I had been in the crowd on our weapons carrier as were during the Tora, Tora, Tora part of the show. A few of them were absolutely inconsolable. As I said this left me gutted for some reason, even though I did not personally know any of the people involved. The B17 had been flying most of the day giving rides and being part of the Tora, Tora, Tora show. I do have a few pictures and video from the show earlier in the day. |
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Would there have been a guy in the tail gunner seat acting as an observer or is that unlikely?
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Quoted: Quoted: Depends on which airplane and which seat you want. Anything from $500 up to $1500. How much to sit in the left seat? Depends on your medical and a few other things but.....years, training....and....yourgoingtoneedaMUCHbiggerwallet.jpg.....for all that. |
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Quoted: I was at the show on Saturday as one of the living history volunteers. We were eating at the hangar where FiFi was waiting on the taxiway to takeoff. We heard an explosion and felt the building shake. We all got up and ran outside to see the fireball and part of the B17 tail at the end of the runway. It only took a few minutes for us to figure out what aircraft were involved. The hardest part of this crash for me was that we were eating with the CAF ground crew and pilots who were taking a break during the bomber portion of the show. The reactions they had made the crash much worse for me than if I had been in the crowd on our weapons carrier as were during the Tora, Tora, Tora part of the show. A few of them were absolutely inconsolable. As I said this left me gutted for some reason, even though I did not personally know any of the people involved. The B17 had been flying most of the day giving rides and being part of the Tora, Tora, Tora show. I do have a few pictures and video from the show earlier in the day. View Quote Seeing someone experiencing inconsolable grief such as this is harder than just witnessing the event yourself. Hope you're ok man. |
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Quoted: Would there have been a guy in the tail gunner seat acting as an observer or is that unlikely? View Quote I didn't see one in the tail in the roll out video posted. I saw on in the nose gunner position and the flight crew. Might have been one or two in the waist position. hard to tell. But the tail gunner position looked empty. |
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Quoted: Seeing someone experiencing inconsolable grief such as this is harder than just witnessing the event yourself. Hope you're ok man. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I was at the show on Saturday as one of the living history volunteers. We were eating at the hangar where FiFi was waiting on the taxiway to takeoff. We heard an explosion and felt the building shake. We all got up and ran outside to see the fireball and part of the B17 tail at the end of the runway. It only took a few minutes for us to figure out what aircraft were involved. The hardest part of this crash for me was that we were eating with the CAF ground crew and pilots who were taking a break during the bomber portion of the show. The reactions they had made the crash much worse for me than if I had been in the crowd on our weapons carrier as were during the Tora, Tora, Tora part of the show. A few of them were absolutely inconsolable. As I said this left me gutted for some reason, even though I did not personally know any of the people involved. The B17 had been flying most of the day giving rides and being part of the Tora, Tora, Tora show. I do have a few pictures and video from the show earlier in the day. Seeing someone experiencing inconsolable grief such as this is harder than just witnessing the event yourself. Hope you're ok man. Your are not kidding. Something like that almost makes it worse. |
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NTSB gives update into deadly plane crash at Dallas Executive Airport
NTSB gives update into deadly plane crash at Dallas Executive Airport |
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Quoted: A ton of stuff to parse out here. Retired fighter guy and current warbird pilot here, too. No, the P-63 pilot was not former military. He was, however, a long-time warbird pilot who has been FAST qualified for years. The FAA requires everyone flying warbirds inside waivered airspace (that FAA Order 8900 that I've posted about in this thread) at an airshow has to be formation qualified. FAST, just like the military, has a syllabus to check pilots out as a wingman, and separate syllabus to check pilots out as flight leads. These syllabi look very similar to undergraduate training wingman and lead qual courses. NATA (North American Trainer Association) is the primary sanctioning body for the warbird fighters and most of the US-trainers (T-6, T-28, etc). The training materials and syllabus are available for you to check out on the internet if you desire, I think you'll see a lot of similarities to the training military pilots get. Guys with FAST quals are perfectly aware of the potential dangers, dangerous positions, dangerous maneuvers, and all of the "musts" like keeping sight, keeping wingtip clearance, keeping nose-to-tail clearance, etc. These are not newbies playing adult games without training or experience. That being said, the P-63 and the B-17 were not "in formation" together. In these shows, the bomber flight is a separate flight from the fighters. They are operating in two, separate, deconflicted circuits along the show line: either altitude deconfliction, or lateral deconfliction with a be-no line. It appears that this show was altitude deconflicted, so generally that's going to mean the bombers are at or below 500' (min alt 250'), and the fighters are up at 1000'. They're both flying the same basic general ground track entering and exiting the show line, but at very different speeds and at different lateral spacings on the downwind leg. When using this deconfliction plan, the airboss reserves the right to allow the fighters to descend into the bomber airspace block. This is usually when the bombers have completed their passes, and because they're slow, it takes them much longer to either make it around the pattern for the next pass, or perform the dogbone course reversal to return back for an opposite-direction pass. This allows the fighters to temporarily get lower and closer to the show line when there is a lull in the activity for the spectators. Based on the reports I'm hearing today (again, unconfirmed and secondhand), the air boss cleared the fighters down into the bomber altitude block down the show line just before the bombers entered the show line in their block....but seemingly the timing of that call by the airboss was errant and given when the P-63 was too close to the lead bomber, the B-17. Because the P-63 was the only fighter behind the B-17, reports say that he cleared the P-63 to "overtake" the 17 in the low altitude block. Don't get me wrong: it is everyone's responsibility to clear their flight path, and the P-63 pilot was obviously responsible for that, too. But, if the airboss clears the fighters down into the bomber altitude block, there's an implication that goes with that call that the bombers aren't currently occupying that block. Thus, the fighters aren't expecting to see anyone there, and have their attention at avoiding the rocks and keeping their fellow formation members in sight. Right now we have no idea what altitude the B-17 and P-63 were at when the collision occurred, so we can't even say if it was in the low block or the high block. That being said, the air boss has a reasonable expectation that guys in the circuit are doing their part to clear their flight path and keep their own formation members in sight. I'm certain that, if this is indeed what occurred, he had a reasonable expectation that the P-63 pilot had the lead bomber in sight...which we can assume based on all the evidence we currently have, he did not. So, lots of potential swiss-cheese compound errors here, and too little information to place blame anywhere yet. View Quote Man, I am loving your posts. |
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Quoted: There's a group of pilots in my area that I've seen on more than one occasion doing 2, 3, and sometimes 4-ship formation flights in dissimilar GA aircraft. Don't know their background or what the reason behind it. If I'm outside I'll stop and watch, especially when they're doing it over my neighborhood. I do always hope nobody screws up. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: RIP to all involved. Very clearly a case where the P-63 pilot was belly up to, and blind on, the B-17....co-altitude....his turn circle was larger than that of the B-17....and smack. It is very clearly the P-63 pilot's fault. While I don't want to speak ill of the dead, just some observations from a former fighter/attack guy. In the military, flying formation is taken extremely seriously and demands extraordinary discipline, not only in maneuvering your aircraft in close proximity to others, but also in maintaining situational awareness and executing set pre-briefed procedures in the event that you go 'blind' on any member within your flight or those you may be maneuvering against (basic fighter maneuvers, for example). I have no idea whether the pilot of the P-63 was former/current military or straight civilian, but these types of formation 'gaggles' make me VERY nervous. I have a friend who is former military (SF type) but didn't learn to fly in the military, and now participates in civilian formation flying in small single engine aircraft. I have tried to warn him that even we military-trained guys F it up on occasion, and even if he maintains strict flight discipline....I wouldn't trust 95% of the average Joe Bagadonuts who is a straight civilian pilot to fly in close formation with me, especially when it is more than two aircraft. Bottom line, absolute tragedy and prayers to the crews family and friends. Fate is the hunter. There's a group of pilots in my area that I've seen on more than one occasion doing 2, 3, and sometimes 4-ship formation flights in dissimilar GA aircraft. Don't know their background or what the reason behind it. If I'm outside I'll stop and watch, especially when they're doing it over my neighborhood. I do always hope nobody screws up. Formation flying is a thing in GA. The rules basically just say that you must have advance permission from the PIC of the other aircraft to do it. Far 91.111. Some groups fly in loose formation into Oshkosh and land in pairs. IIRC there are some minimum experience and training requirements by the organizations to do it. The only reason that works (hell, the only reason Oshkosh works in general) is because, everyone is flying the same speed within their own category. GA airplanes have a NOTAMed speed (IIRC 90 kts) AND spacing, and form up on a very long line from the SW approaching Fisk, with controllers watching every airplane and waving them off or giving them turns as needed then vectoring them onto their final approaches. Warbirds have an approach from the north, and the big iron IIRC generally approaches from the east. If you tried to mix up GA, Warbirds, and big iron on one single approach, you WOULD have accidents every day. Condolences to the folks here who lost friends. I wish I had something else to give you. |
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Quoted: A ton of stuff to parse out here. Retired fighter guy and current warbird pilot here, too. No, the P-63 pilot was not former military. He was, however, a long-time warbird pilot who has been FAST qualified for years. The FAA requires everyone flying warbirds inside waivered airspace (that FAA Order 8900 that I've posted about in this thread) at an airshow has to be formation qualified. FAST, just like the military, has a syllabus to check pilots out as a wingman, and separate syllabus to check pilots out as flight leads. These syllabi look very similar to undergraduate training wingman and lead qual courses. NATA (North American Trainer Association) is the primary sanctioning body for the warbird fighters and most of the US-trainers (T-6, T-28, etc). The training materials and syllabus are available for you to check out on the internet if you desire, I think you'll see a lot of similarities to the training military pilots get. Guys with FAST quals are perfectly aware of the potential dangers, dangerous positions, dangerous maneuvers, and all of the "musts" like keeping sight, keeping wingtip clearance, keeping nose-to-tail clearance, etc. These are not newbies playing adult games without training or experience. That being said, the P-63 and the B-17 were not "in formation" together. In these shows, the bomber flight is a separate flight from the fighters. They are operating in two, separate, deconflicted circuits along the show line: either altitude deconfliction, or lateral deconfliction with a be-no line. It appears that this show was altitude deconflicted, so generally that's going to mean the bombers are at or below 500' (min alt 250'), and the fighters are up at 1000'. They're both flying the same basic general ground track entering and exiting the show line, but at very different speeds and at different lateral spacings on the downwind leg. When using this deconfliction plan, the airboss reserves the right to allow the fighters to descend into the bomber airspace block. This is usually when the bombers have completed their passes, and because they're slow, it takes them much longer to either make it around the pattern for the next pass, or perform the dogbone course reversal to return back for an opposite-direction pass. This allows the fighters to temporarily get lower and closer to the show line when there is a lull in the activity for the spectators. Based on the reports I'm hearing today (again, unconfirmed and secondhand), the air boss cleared the fighters down into the bomber altitude block down the show line just before the bombers entered the show line in their block....but seemingly the timing of that call by the airboss was errant and given when the P-63 was too close to the lead bomber, the B-17. Because the P-63 was the only fighter behind the B-17, reports say that he cleared the P-63 to "overtake" the 17 in the low altitude block. Don't get me wrong: it is everyone's responsibility to clear their flight path, and the P-63 pilot was obviously responsible for that, too. But, if the airboss clears the fighters down into the bomber altitude block, there's an implication that goes with that call that the bombers aren't currently occupying that block. Thus, the fighters aren't expecting to see anyone there, and have their attention at avoiding the rocks and keeping their fellow formation members in sight. Right now we have no idea what altitude the B-17 and P-63 were at when the collision occurred, so we can't even say if it was in the low block or the high block. That being said, the air boss has a reasonable expectation that guys in the circuit are doing their part to clear their flight path and keep their own formation members in sight. I'm certain that, if this is indeed what occurred, he had a reasonable expectation that the P-63 pilot had the lead bomber in sight...which we can assume based on all the evidence we currently have, he did not. So, lots of potential swiss-cheese compound errors here, and too little information to place blame anywhere yet. View Quote I'll withhold commenting until a report comes out. But,.....damn! |
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Quoted:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/327183/40D293D3-E59F-41BD-B4F9-96998E0BFFC2_jpe-2599031.JPG View Quote Terry was one of my neighbors for a lot of years. He was one of the good guys. |
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Forgive me if this has already been posted. I've been out all day. Have any other names of the victims been released? I've met or have done work for a bunch of CAF guys over the years.
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Quoted: Fore me if this has already been posted. I've been out all day. Have any other names of the victims been released? I've met or have done work for a bunch of CAF guys over the years. View Quote https://foxobits.com/major-curtis-j-rowe-obituary-member-of-the-ohio-wing-civil-air-patrol-has-died-death/ |
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CAF B-17 "Texas Raiders" & P-63 Kingcobra at Houston Airshow 2022 (just 2 weeks prior)
(4K) CAF B-17 "Texas Raiders" & P-63 Kingcobra at Houston Airshow 2022 |
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Damn. Saw that bird a few times at the Temple airshow.
What a shame. RIP to everyone involved. |
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Quoted: Prop will be here from MT and Memphis Prop around the middle of January. Paperwork for repairman certificate and registration sent in to OKC last week. I hear they are backlogged 6 months. The DAR can't do anything without the hard copy of the registration. I'm headed back to Huntsville the first of February and it'll be assholes and elbows getting it completed. I'm also still waiting on quite a few parts from Don at 92ND West Aviation. Almost ready to start covering...I'm hiring a friends wife to help. She has covered a few aircraft for others. All my Dynon stuff for both cockpits showed up a few weeks ago. It's going to be a fun spring !!! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203499/Model12wingpic2_jpg-2598910.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203499/Model12wingpic1_jpg-2598905.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203499/Model12fuselage1_jpg-2598908.JPG BTW...I have 3 guys that have all flown competitive aerobatics that are going to help me fly the 40 hours off and transition me into the airplane. I really had to twist their arms. Also...the guy who fixed the Stearman purchased two former German BO105's so we will be working on those. I'm very sorry about the loss of your friends.... View Quote These are awesome photos, thanks. Please consider starting a build thread so we can watch the progress!! |
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Quoted: These incidents with warbirds that are either not maintained correctly or piloted into the ground are far too common to ignore the trend. View Quote Go watch a single year's worth of GA arrivals and departures into OSH, and see if that's still a "trend". These WWII airplanes are lovingly cared for, and maintained better than the ones I fly for work (and which you might ride on) at a 121 airline. Crews for the LHFE ride flights are trained to Part 135 standards, and most of the pilots are 121, 135, or 91 professional pilots in their "day jobs". They are highly qualified, highly trained, and highly motivated. This isn't the 1960s anymore when anyone can go down and buy a surplus P-51, and when people were planting them into fields with regularity. *That* was a trend. |
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Was the B-17 the lead plane in the bomber flight? Was the P-63 the trailer in the fighter group?
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Quoted: It appears that was true for the bomber flight. Don't know about the composition of the fighter flight. View Quote There is a video taken from a position upwind of the B-17 and you can see two bombers behind it....a B-24 and another I forget (MudEagle identified it when I asked about it) |
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Major Curtis Rowe, a 30-year plus veteran of the Civil Air Patrol's Ohio Wing, was also on board the B-17 which crashed Five veteran pilots were onboard a Boeing B17 Flying Fortress bomber when it collided with a P-63 Kingcobra in midair at a weekend airshow to celebrate Veterans Day, outside of Dallas on Saturday. Terry Barker, Len Root, Curtis Rowe, Kevin Michels and Dan Ragan have been named as the five crew members on the B-17. Root and Barker were both former union members. The P-63 was being flown by Craig Hutain who also died as his plane smashed into the bomber aircraft resulting in a total of six deaths at the Wings Over Dallas event. More Craig Hutain P-63 pilot Attached File Attached File |
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I'm no forensic expert and it's just a guess, but based on the bank angle in those phots compared to where the impact was... I wonder if that airplane wasn't in an accelerated stall and the pilot was hauling back on the stick as hard as he could.
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Initially, I thought that the left wing of the P-63 sliced the tail off the B-17, but now it appears that P-63 hit the fuselage dead center just behind the trailing edge of the wings (if not, a bit in front of the trailing edge). Is this correct?
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Quoted: Go watch a single year's worth of GA arrivals and departures into OSH, and see if that's still a "trend". These WWII airplanes are lovingly cared for, and maintained better than the ones I fly for work (and which you might ride on) at a 121 airline. Crews for the LHFE ride flights are trained to Part 135 standards, and most of the pilots are 121, 135, or 91 professional pilots in their "day jobs". They are highly qualified, highly trained, and highly motivated. This isn't the 1960s anymore when anyone can go down and buy a surplus P-51, and when people were planting them into fields with regularity. *That* was a trend. View Quote Given how relatively few flying P-51s and B17s there are compared to say a 172 the last few years have seen more than normal crash rates. Baby Duck, Pecos Bill, Nine-O -Nine, Galloping Ghost, and others. The NTSB reports on a few of those pointed to issues that were more than avoidable if airline or .mil standards were applied. |
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Quoted: Initially, I thought that the left wing of the P-63 sliced the tail off the B-17, but now it appears that P-63 hit the fuselage dead-center just behind the wing box. Is this correct? View Quote He hit just ahead of the waist position and buried into the wing root and a couple pictures of the hit show pretty clearly that the prop and gearbox gutted the B-17 all the way to the flight deck in addition to severing the tail section. I know 5 on that list. What a shit sandwich. |
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Quoted: He hit just ahead of the waist position and buried into the wing root and a couple pictures of the hit show pretty clearly that the prop and gearbox gutted the B-17 all the way to the flight deck in addition to severing the tail section. I know 5 on that list. What a shit sandwich. View Quote I wonder if the crew had ANY idea what had happened or if it all happened so fast that they were in the ground before they had time to process a single thought. |
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Quoted: Given how relatively few flying P-51s and B17s there are compared to say a 172 the last few years have seen more than normal crash rates. Baby Duck, Pecos Bill, Nine-O -Nine, Galloping Ghost, and others. The NTSB reports on a few of those pointed to issues that were more than avoidable if airline or .mil standards were applied. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Go watch a single year's worth of GA arrivals and departures into OSH, and see if that's still a "trend". These WWII airplanes are lovingly cared for, and maintained better than the ones I fly for work (and which you might ride on) at a 121 airline. Crews for the LHFE ride flights are trained to Part 135 standards, and most of the pilots are 121, 135, or 91 professional pilots in their "day jobs". They are highly qualified, highly trained, and highly motivated. This isn't the 1960s anymore when anyone can go down and buy a surplus P-51, and when people were planting them into fields with regularity. *That* was a trend. Given how relatively few flying P-51s and B17s there are compared to say a 172 the last few years have seen more than normal crash rates. Baby Duck, Pecos Bill, Nine-O -Nine, Galloping Ghost, and others. The NTSB reports on a few of those pointed to issues that were more than avoidable if airline or .mil standards were applied. You don't pay much attention to GA stats do you? There are FAR more crashes in GA than warbirds. Warbirds are unforgiving. I wouldn't even consider Galloping Ghost a warbird anymore. |
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AirVenture Interviews, Warbird Pilot Craig Hutain |
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Quoted: I wonder if the crew had ANY idea what had happened or if it all happened so fast that they were in the ground before they had time to process a single thought. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: He hit just ahead of the waist position and buried into the wing root and a couple pictures of the hit show pretty clearly that the prop and gearbox gutted the B-17 all the way to the flight deck in addition to severing the tail section. I know 5 on that list. What a shit sandwich. I wonder if the crew had ANY idea what had happened or if it all happened so fast that they were in the ground before they had time to process a single thought. If someone was in the waist position? Maybe he knew what was coming. I doubt anyone else on the aircraft knew. They may have never knew what hit them. As for the P-63? He may have seen some of the 17 wing at the last second. |
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Quoted: If someone was in the waist position? Maybe he knew what was coming. I doubt anyone else on the aircraft knew. They may have never knew what hit them. As for the P-63? He may have seen some of the 17 wing at the last second. View Quote I was more so talking about the guys on the B-17 flight deck. |
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Quoted: I was more so talking about the guys on the B-17 flight deck. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: If someone was in the waist position? Maybe he knew what was coming. I doubt anyone else on the aircraft knew. They may have never knew what hit them. As for the P-63? He may have seen some of the 17 wing at the last second. I was more so talking about the guys on the B-17 flight deck. I doubt it. I really don't think they knew what hit them. |
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