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Posted: 5/7/2023 3:40:05 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 5/7/2023 4:19:49 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Honestly, the biggest takeaway from this isn't that Russia is weaker than we thought. It's that there is now damning and indisputable proof that Russia is still run by incompetent thugs, retards, and fuckups just as it has been since the Whites lost in 1920. Literally zero reason they shouldn't have all or most of Ukraine by now given the equipment and manpower disparities and massive disparity in ability to strike and cut supply lines. Grab a random StarCraft grandmaster kid from Korea and he could probably have performed far better than Shoigu, et al. This reminds me of the PLA's performance invading Vietnam or Austria-Hungary invading Serbia. Fart-sniffing nepotism and doctrinal stupidity collided with reality in a very ugly way. So you're saying Russia isn't an actual threat and it's laughable that anyone would even think they would be able to take on a force like NATO. So you agree that the claims Russia is a serious threat has been greatly exaggerated. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 4:22:20 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What troops? We aren't on the same side, dude  We have more troops in Russia than Ukraine Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well since the Russians are "losing" when do you expect Zelensky to declare victory so we can pull our troops out of the Ukraine, as well as stop sending tax payer monies and our vital military resources to him? What troops? We aren't on the same side, dude We have more troops in Russia than Ukraine  We have troops in Russia? |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 4:24:10 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In military terms, fast saves the lives of your own troops and the enemy's. No competent commander plans for slow. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "Prigozhin announces that the Wagner Group will withdraw from Bakhmut on May 10th." https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/494438/IMG_0647-2806327.jpg sorry for the bad news OP...  Getting out of the way of missiles/nukes? Have you been paying any attention to what he's been saying the last week especially? So you're saying we should trust Russian claims now. Each claim and source evaluated on its own merit. For example, Prigozhin has never claimed that Bakhmut has fallen. What he puts out seems to get corroborated from multiple sources eventually. In public it is appears to be obvious there has been a deterioration in relations between Wagner and RU .mil for months. The only reluctance I have specific to this new video is the possibility of being intentionally misleading for advantage. I don't expect Wagner is actually going to leave Bakhmut, and I'll say the reason is 50/50, it is a bluff or intentional misinformation/they'll be coerced or convinced to stay. "Each claim and source evaluated on its own merit" - I agree "For example, Prigozhin has never claimed that Bakhmut has fallen" - Yeah, I don't know who that is. The claim that Bakhmut fell was mine and was made after I saw a MSM news story were it indicated that the Russians had taken control of most of Bakhmut. "The only reluctance I have specific to this new video is the possibility of being intentionally misleading for advantage." - Yup, same. Unlike some of the posters here, I'm not gonna arbitrarily trust Russian claims. /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/raw-355.gif Based only on context clues from the last couple of pages in this thread, you have no idea who he may be? "Prigozhin announces that the Wagner Group will withdraw from Bakhmut on May 10th." A reporter or some kind of spokesperson? TBH, I don't really care! Prigozhin is the creator or financial bscker/owner/oligarch that controls Wagner, he's known in Russia as "Putins chef". He made his billions as a caterer to the Kremlin and the rich oligarchs. He is very close to Putin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Prigozhin Well then, we should absolutely trust what he says! Yea it does sound like he's tired of getting his ass whooped in Bakhmut and decided to finally fuck off back home lol. Saying it's due to ammo shortage is a sugar coated excuse for failing to take bakhmut. Lol Well success doesn't always equate to being fast. Just sayin https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/288245/FvUvnW8XsAAjVRI_jpeg-2806426.JPG In military terms, fast saves the lives of your own troops and the enemy's. No competent commander plans for slow. Reread what I said |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 4:28:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia has been trying to do regime change for over a year. They sent hundreds of men to infiltrate the capital and kill Zelenskyy. They failed. That's not an apology to you. That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands. Be sure to have your Kleenex handy. https://i.postimg.cc/QC1hvxQV/IMG-0217.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If I was him I wouldn't either. If true, it was a dumb move with the drones, as well as Biden's call for regime change in Russia. Now the door is open for Z's assassination. Russia has been trying to do regime change for over a year. They sent hundreds of men to infiltrate the capital and kill Zelenskyy. They failed. Quoted: I accept your apologize  That's not an apology to you. That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands. Be sure to have your Kleenex handy. https://i.postimg.cc/QC1hvxQV/IMG-0217.jpg  "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 5:21:39 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 5:24:03 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because Uke bros can't handle anyone looking at this war objectively. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 5:28:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because Uke bros can't handle anyone looking at this war objectively. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? It appears that way. IMO, they're allowing their emotions to block their ability to process information and they've been lashing out. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 5:33:52 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 6:21:57 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't consider Russia the 2nd best army in the world. During the USSR days, yeah, I would. Now they aren't even close. Unless they start throwing nukes around, then yeah, 2nd best. Might want to tell them that and half of the Arfcom GD sycophants |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 7:06:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you're saying Russia isn't an actual threat and it's laughable that anyone would even think they would be able to take on a force like NATO. So you agree that the claims Russia is a serious threat has been greatly exaggerated. Russia is a serious threat cuz they're a bunch of drunk inbreds with nuklear weapons. And letting them take Ukraine and other countries cuz we think they are weak is fucking retarded. "They're not a threat to us so we'll just let them takeover whatever they want until they are" |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 7:29:45 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you're saying Russia isn't an actual threat and it's laughable that anyone would even think they would be able to take on a force like NATO. So you agree that the claims Russia is a serious threat has been greatly exaggerated. Whatever conventional capabilities we suspected they had in the past are apparantly not the conventional capabilities they have now but then again I doubt ours are at our Cold War peak either. As someone that is not an immediate neighbor to Russia I'm certainly much more concerned with their strategic nuclear capabilities. If the world were a wooden house that we were all in together, they're certainly capable of being a retard with a match and a can of gasoline... |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 7:31:52 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because Uke bros can't handle anyone looking at this war objectively. That's really the sad fact here. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 7:33:35 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. Sorry bud, many have earned it with their behavior, it doesn't do their cause any favors. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 8:56:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia has been trying to do regime change for over a year. They sent hundreds of men to infiltrate the capital and kill Zelenskyy. They failed. It has a Wiki page and everything. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_Volodymyr_Zelenskyy |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 8:58:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't consider the USSR days either. They were never tested. Now they are. Now it's obvious they are a joke, just as they were likely a joke then. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Now do the big map and expand it over the last year.  The “2nd best” army in the world has taken 10 months and tens of thousands of lives to take a few kilometers of a shitty little piece of ground. Epic troll tho. I wouldn't consider Russia the 2nd best army in the world. During the USSR days, yeah, I would. Now they aren't even close. Unless they start throwing nukes around, then yeah, 2nd best. I wouldn't consider the USSR days either. They were never tested. Now they are. Now it's obvious they are a joke, just as they were likely a joke then. That's not what the CIA and DoD said. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 9:04:55 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that. Why not? Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers........and the sane ones in the middle. Domestic example: Antifa and Proud Boys......and the sane ones in the middle. But if you(not you personally) self describe as a Uke Bro, it would be very hard to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post, from the other side. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 9:22:19 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not? Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers........and the sane ones in the middle. Domestic example: Antifa and Proud Boys......and the sane ones in the middle. But if you(not you personally) self describe as a Uke Bro, it would be very hard to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post, from the other side. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that. Why not? Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers........and the sane ones in the middle. Domestic example: Antifa and Proud Boys......and the sane ones in the middle. But if you(not you personally) self describe as a Uke Bro, it would be very hard to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post, from the other side. Antifa and a Proud Boys are actual groups of people with membership and silly costumes. Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers are simply terms used by the intellectually lazy as a substitute for substantive debate. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 9:47:14 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol The fact that your entire explanation seems to be predicated on the assumption that I am being emotional is pretty funny, and says a lot about the strength of your argument. I haven't really participated in this thread, but read it just to make sure everyone is behaving. My point remains the same, and I am telling you as a relatively indifferent observer and mod; Your own posts make it look like you are trolling. It is just an observation, and you can do whatever you want with that information - including being defensive and calling me emotional. Makes no difference to me.  Being less than fully informed and having a contrary opinion or being factually incorrect isn't trolling IMO. I don't think OP's goal is trying to incite a reaction. Disagreeing with a particularly vocal group is noisy, always has been, but the alternative is no discussion. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 9:56:56 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that. I imagine they'd disagree with you. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 11:37:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well since the Russians are "losing" when do you expect Zelensky to declare victory so we can pull our troops out of the Ukraine, as well as stop sending tax payer monies and our vital military resources to him? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hi Save that comparison for the Ukrainian offensive, if they can even launch one. Russia says they can. They also scoffed last September and October but look what happened. 15 months later Russia is weaker with no goals accomplished. 15 months later Ukraine is a lot stronger. "15 months later Ukraine is a lot stronger." - Yeah, not really seeing that but ok.. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/288245/FvZ2h8CXoAYwYWE_jpeg-2807394.JPG well factually they are several times over stronger than the start of the war. from all the weapons given from the west, and all the armor russia donated to ukraine retreating during the khakiv offensive last year. (which russia became the biggest supplier to ukraine out of all the countrys combined, lol). so yes they are VERY much stronger. russia has lost all there combat experienced brigades. and they are bringing out 50 year old tanks out of storage. no way you can argue that Ukraine is not stronger. you can say it sure, but you would be wrong. You do know bakhmut isn't the only area where there is fighting right??,  Since day one of this war Ukraine has took back more than what russia gained in the first month..you need to pay attention or learn basic math/geography. Russia has lost more land that they took since 15 months ago. So according to your own ideology of how this war is going Ukraine is fucking slaying russia. Taking 10 blocks of the 58th largest city in Ukraine over the course of 9 months is not considered "winning" lol Well since the Russians are "losing" when do you expect Zelensky to declare victory so we can pull our troops out of the Ukraine, as well as stop sending tax payer monies and our vital military resources to him? When Ukraine pushes the Russian pigs all the way back to pre 2014 borders. 
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Posted: 5/7/2023 11:44:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "I was more commenting on your "guess"" - First, let me make it clear that I'm not implying/saying that I have a better insight as to what's actually going on with the war in Ukraine. As I have previously stated, I'm not really interested in the minutiae of the Ukraine war. However, that doesn't mean I'm not looking at the bigger picture and formulating opinions based on life experiences and summations. "What happens if Ukraine doesn't adjust its timetable based on that picture?" - To avoid being called a troll let me ask you, what do you think it meant when the Russians did that? Why now and why that? Do you not think this will affect what's going on in Bakhmut? Will there be a Bakhmut left to defend? Will time play a factor in regaining Bakhmut? etc etc I ask you these questions not as a troll but rather I'm giving you an insight as to how my mind works. When I see something that seems interesting my OCD kicks in and I start analyzing it by asking myself a bunch of questions to paint a picture. I hope this helps you to understand my thought process. Is Bakhmut on the way to Melitopol or something? You're the one who said Ukraine better hurry up and launch its counteroffensive. Explain it to us. Why does the counteroffensive hinge on the fate of Bakhmut being firebombed some more or not? You're not interested in the minutiae of the war... that's why you started an entire thread on a small town that Russia has spent months meat grinding through and, at this point, has no hope of turning into a breakthrough to more easily overcome defenses. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 12:06:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Antifa and a Proud Boys are actual groups of people with membership and silly costumes. Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers are simply terms used by the intellectually lazy as a substitute for substantive debate. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that. Why not? Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers........and the sane ones in the middle. Domestic example: Antifa and Proud Boys......and the sane ones in the middle. But if you(not you personally) self describe as a Uke Bro, it would be very hard to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post, from the other side. Antifa and a Proud Boys are actual groups of people with membership and silly costumes. Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers are simply terms used by the intellectually lazy as a substitute for substantive debate. It was an analogy and useful as such. You just want to be argumentative in a thread you call trolling. Pot meet kettle. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 12:28:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was an analogy and useful as such. You just want to be argumentative in a thread you call trolling. Pot meet kettle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that. Why not? Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers........and the sane ones in the middle. Domestic example: Antifa and Proud Boys......and the sane ones in the middle. But if you(not you personally) self describe as a Uke Bro, it would be very hard to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post, from the other side. Antifa and a Proud Boys are actual groups of people with membership and silly costumes. Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers are simply terms used by the intellectually lazy as a substitute for substantive debate. It was an analogy and useful as such. You just want to be argumentative in a thread you call trolling. Pot meet kettle. I’m not making an argument, I’m stating a fact. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 12:34:54 PM EDT
[#25]
So did Bakhmut fall or not? Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?
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Posted: 5/7/2023 12:36:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, I'm sure you're right, the Ukraine has to be "a lot stronger" after losing most of Bakhmut. Makes total sense! Oh so far he entire Uke army is in Bakmut? |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 12:46:36 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia is a serious threat cuz they're a bunch of drunk inbreds with nuklear weapons. And letting them take Ukraine and other countries cuz we think they are weak is fucking retarded. "They're not a threat to us so we'll just let them takeover whatever they want until they are" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So you're saying Russia isn't an actual threat and it's laughable that anyone would even think they would be able to take on a force like NATO. So you agree that the claims Russia is a serious threat has been greatly exaggerated. Russia is a serious threat cuz they're a bunch of drunk inbreds with nuklear weapons. And letting them take Ukraine and other countries cuz we think they are weak is fucking retarded. "They're not a threat to us so we'll just let them takeover whatever they want until they are" "Russia is a serious threat cuz they're a bunch of drunk inbreds with nuklear weapons." - If this is the case why would we want to get into a war with them over a corrupt country that has no vital value to us? You guys are letting your emotions override your common sense, don't be in such a hurry to get into a war with a nuclear power, its not going to end well for anyone! "And letting them take Ukraine and other countries cuz we think they are weak is fucking retarded." - "Letting"? "They're not a threat to us so we'll just let them takeover whatever they want until they are" - We aren't the world police, it isn't our job to jump into every conflict. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 12:54:46 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When Ukraine pushes the Russian pigs all the way back to pre 2014 borders. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hi Save that comparison for the Ukrainian offensive, if they can even launch one. Russia says they can. They also scoffed last September and October but look what happened. 15 months later Russia is weaker with no goals accomplished. 15 months later Ukraine is a lot stronger. "15 months later Ukraine is a lot stronger." - Yeah, not really seeing that but ok.. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/288245/FvZ2h8CXoAYwYWE_jpeg-2807394.JPG well factually they are several times over stronger than the start of the war. from all the weapons given from the west, and all the armor russia donated to ukraine retreating during the khakiv offensive last year. (which russia became the biggest supplier to ukraine out of all the countrys combined, lol). so yes they are VERY much stronger. russia has lost all there combat experienced brigades. and they are bringing out 50 year old tanks out of storage. no way you can argue that Ukraine is not stronger. you can say it sure, but you would be wrong. You do know bakhmut isn't the only area where there is fighting right??, Since day one of this war Ukraine has took back more than what russia gained in the first month..you need to pay attention or learn basic math/geography. Russia has lost more land that they took since 15 months ago. So according to your own ideology of how this war is going Ukraine is fucking slaying russia. Taking 10 blocks of the 58th largest city in Ukraine over the course of 9 months is not considered "winning" lol Well since the Russians are "losing" when do you expect Zelensky to declare victory so we can pull our troops out of the Ukraine, as well as stop sending tax payer monies and our vital military resources to him? When Ukraine pushes the Russian pigs all the way back to pre 2014 borders. Unfortunately, based on what I've seen so far, I don't see this happening. Like I've said repeatedly, it was a huge mistake to get involved in this conflict and I have a hunch its going to blow up in our (US) faces! Could I be wrong, sure, lets hope! |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 12:56:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So did Bakhmut fall or not? Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies? "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 12:57:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh so far he entire Uke army is in Bakmut? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, I'm sure you're right, the Ukraine has to be "a lot stronger" after losing most of Bakhmut. Makes total sense! Oh so far he entire Uke army is in Bakmut? No |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 1:04:37 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately, based on what I've seen so far, I don't see this happening. Like I've said repeatedly, it was a huge mistake to get involved in this conflict and I have a hunch its going to blow up in our (US) faces! Could I be wrong, sure, lets hope! It's a good argument. The world would not be better for anyone if China or Russia were in control of it. So that's an abstract or high level motivation for being the worlds police. My knee jerk reaction is to agree with you that we have no vital interest in Ukraine, I've made that argument myself, but as time goes on and other event take place in the world I recognize that America's influence is a net positive, even if every individual thing we do along the way may not be. I'm not naive to our flaws but I still believe in us more than I believe in Russia or China. I'd pursue the ejection of Russia from Ukrainian soil differently, if we believe it serves our interest to oppose Russia, I'd do it more forcefully with the overarching goal of ending the conflict as quickly as possible. We're in or out, half measures seem to provide the worst of all outcomes. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 1:08:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) There's that big picture focus. What happens if/when they take Bakhmut? No need for nitty gritty details. Just the broad strokes, please. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 1:18:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's that big picture focus. What happens if/when they take Bakhmut? No need for nitty gritty details. Just the broad strokes, please.
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Posted: 5/7/2023 1:39:18 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So did Bakhmut fall or not? Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies? "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) How much does this objective further their strategic goal? |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:24:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is an argument or philosophy that an engaged US, promoting our vision of the way the world should be is better than China or Russia doing the same. It's a good argument. The world would not be better for anyone if China or Russia were in control of it. So that's an abstract or high level motivation for being the worlds police. My knee jerk reaction is to agree with you that we have no vital interest in Ukraine, I've made that argument myself, but as time goes on and other event take place in the world I recognize that America's influence is a net positive, even if every individual thing we do along the way may not be. I'm not naive to our flaws but I still believe in us more than I believe in Russia or China. I'd pursue the ejection of Russia from Ukrainian soil differently, if we believe it serves our interest to oppose Russia, I'd do it more forcefully with the overarching goal of ending the conflict as quickly as possible. We're in or out, half measures seem to provide the worst of all outcomes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Unfortunately, based on what I've seen so far, I don't see this happening. Like I've said repeatedly, it was a huge mistake to get involved in this conflict and I have a hunch its going to blow up in our (US) faces! Could I be wrong, sure, lets hope! It's a good argument. The world would not be better for anyone if China or Russia were in control of it. So that's an abstract or high level motivation for being the worlds police. My knee jerk reaction is to agree with you that we have no vital interest in Ukraine, I've made that argument myself, but as time goes on and other event take place in the world I recognize that America's influence is a net positive, even if every individual thing we do along the way may not be. I'm not naive to our flaws but I still believe in us more than I believe in Russia or China. I'd pursue the ejection of Russia from Ukrainian soil differently, if we believe it serves our interest to oppose Russia, I'd do it more forcefully with the overarching goal of ending the conflict as quickly as possible. We're in or out, half measures seem to provide the worst of all outcomes. "There is an argument or philosophy that an engaged US, promoting our vision of the way the world should be is better than China or Russia doing the same." - Its actually a good argument and I agree with it. It looks like we think along the same lines however where I believe we differ, or what drives my concerns is that I see the incompetent Biden administration doing everything wrong to achieve this objective. Instead of promoting peace talks Biden's pushing war and calling for regime change of a world leader. I'm not sure people are contemplating the fallout from China and France and not the US getting Zelensky to agree to a peace deal with Russia. As if the world doesn't already see how feeble America is with Biden at the helm, a win for Russia and China will only amplify our friend's concerns that they're on the wrong team. Biden's stupidity is pushing our friends and enemies towards China and Russia at a time the US is preparing for a war with China and potentially sparking WWIII. With our military in disarray and lead by dumbasses, it was idiotic to have wasted our vital resources on a war that's unwinnable in the Ukraine! I have a suspicion this isn't going to end well for us. I'm sure the Ukraine bros, blinded by their emotions will discard my differing perspective by posting their usual child like quips but that doesn't really address my concerns. I hope I'm wrong but at this point I don't see where I am. By the way, thank you for an actual discussion, I really appreciate the change of pace!  |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:30:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's that big picture focus. What happens if/when they take Bakhmut? No need for nitty gritty details. Just the broad strokes, please. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) There's that big picture focus. What happens if/when they take Bakhmut? No need for nitty gritty details. Just the broad strokes, please. "What happens if/when they take Bakhmut?" - Good question, I'm not sure why that objective was chosen. I haven't dug down deep enough to see what is so important about that area. I saw where someone said it gave good/strategic access to other areas of the Ukraine but I don't know how valid that is. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:30:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sketti gets to change the title again. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There's that big picture focus. What happens if/when they take Bakhmut? No need for nitty gritty details. Just the broad strokes, please.  |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:32:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "What happens if/when they take Bakhmut?" - Good question, I'm not sure why that objective was chosen. I haven't dug down deep enough to see what is so important about that area. I saw where someone said it gave good/strategic access to other areas of the Ukraine but I don't know how valid that is.The real question is why have YOU chosen it as an area of focus to the exclusion of the literal bigger map picture of Ukraine? |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:33:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How much does this objective further their strategic goal? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So did Bakhmut fall or not? Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies? "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) How much does this objective further their strategic goal? Well I know this will get me the TROLL label again but I honestly don't know. I have no clue as to what Russia's plans are and what they hope to accomplish. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:35:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I know this will get me the TROLL label again but I honestly don't know. I have no clue as to what Russia's plans are and what they hope to accomplish. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So did Bakhmut fall or not? Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies? "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) How much does this objective further their strategic goal? Well I know this will get me the TROLL label again but I honestly don't know. I have no clue as to what Russia's plans are and what they hope to accomplish. It must be important to invest over nine months and tens of thousands of casualties for. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:36:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The real question is why have YOU chosen it as an area of focus to the exclusion of the literal bigger map picture of Ukraine?
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:44:20 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The real question is why have YOU chosen it as an area of focus to the exclusion of the literal bigger map picture of Ukraine? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "What happens if/when they take Bakhmut?" - Good question, I'm not sure why that objective was chosen. I haven't dug down deep enough to see what is so important about that area. I saw where someone said it gave good/strategic access to other areas of the Ukraine but I don't know how valid that is.The real question is why have YOU chosen it as an area of focus to the exclusion of the literal bigger map picture of Ukraine? Actually my focus wasn't Bakhmut per say, I just happened to see an article about the Russians taking most of Bakhmut and used it to point out another Biden administration foreign policy blunder by getting us involved in the war in Ukraine. OP: "As of today, Bakhmut is pretty much in Russian hands. Looks like another foreign policy win for the Biden administration. So where do we (US) go from here? What should we expect from our enemies and do we even have a leadership and the military might to do what needs to be done?" |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:46:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It must be important to invest over nine months and tens of thousands of casualties for. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So did Bakhmut fall or not? Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies? "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) How much does this objective further their strategic goal? Well I know this will get me the TROLL label again but I honestly don't know. I have no clue as to what Russia's plans are and what they hope to accomplish. It must be important to invest over nine months and tens of thousands of casualties for. Yup, I'm guessing both sides have their reasons for Bakhmut |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:46:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I know this will get me the TROLL label again but I honestly don't know. I have no clue as to what Russia's plans are and what they hope to accomplish. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:50:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup, I'm guessing both sides have their reasons for Bakhmut Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So did Bakhmut fall or not? Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies? "So did Bakhmut fall or not?" - Mostly (see Tile and OP) "Did the Russian meat grander gain anything with all those dead bodies?" - Its looking that way (objective: Bakhmut) How much does this objective further their strategic goal? Well I know this will get me the TROLL label again but I honestly don't know. I have no clue as to what Russia's plans are and what they hope to accomplish. It must be important to invest over nine months and tens of thousands of casualties for. Yup, I'm guessing both sides have their reasons for Bakhmut For the Ukrainians it has been an opportunity to wreck the Russian military by being the defenders in an urban environment when they are willing to cede land if the situation is untenable at the time. For the Russians, it was useful for a while to kill a bunch of their prisoners. Since then you got me. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:50:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m not making an argument, I’m stating a fact. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "That's not an apology to you" "That's feeling bad for your upcoming sadness because Russia is going to lose a lot more stolen lands." - Why would you feel bad for me and why would I feel sad if Russian forces start losing? Anyone saying "Uke bros" probably can't handle an objective take on the war themselves. I have yet to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post from someone like that. Why not? Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers........and the sane ones in the middle. Domestic example: Antifa and Proud Boys......and the sane ones in the middle. But if you(not you personally) self describe as a Uke Bro, it would be very hard to see anything remotely resembling an intelligent, thoughtful, informed post, from the other side. Antifa and a Proud Boys are actual groups of people with membership and silly costumes. Uke Bros & Putin Knobbers are simply terms used by the intellectually lazy as a substitute for substantive debate. It was an analogy and useful as such. You just want to be argumentative in a thread you call trolling. Pot meet kettle. I’m not making an argument, I’m stating a fact. >>Snort<< Factual, but disconnected from the point under discussion. It added nothing but a tangent. Pot meet the troll kettle. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 2:58:27 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be honest you've pretty much earned the troll title after this thread. Half the pages are you just repeating yourself over and over again... when you Posted the thread you knew the title was wrong and refused to change it for a while even after you were clearly wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well I know this will get me the TROLL label again but I honestly don't know. I have no clue as to what Russia's plans are and what they hope to accomplish. He's also stated multiple times he doesn't care what happens yet he drags out the thread multiple times a day arguing about something he cares nothing about.  
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Posted: 5/7/2023 3:02:04 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's really the sad fact here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Because Uke bros can't handle anyone looking at this war objectively. That's really the sad fact here. Doesnt really matter what govnmt! |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 3:08:04 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be honest you've pretty much earned the troll title after this thread. Half the pages are you just repeating yourself over and over again... when you Posted the thread you knew the title was wrong and refused to change it for a while even after you were clearly wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well I know this will get me the TROLL label again but I honestly don't know. I have no clue as to what Russia's plans are and what they hope to accomplish. "Half the pages are you just repeating yourself over and over again" - So I've been consistent in what I say, yup definitely troll stuff  "you Posted the thread you knew the title was wrong and refused to change it for a while even after you were clearly wrong." - Actually I didn't realize a single word would have triggered a bunch of grown men. I figured people would have read the OP and determined as to what I was referring to. My bad for seeing things/word meanings differently. In my defense, I did add an extra word to the title, which for some reason eased the pain and suffering of those triggered. |
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Posted: 5/7/2023 3:11:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everything you disagree with isn't a Russian influence op. Some of it is...but not all. Never said or implied that it was. I do think it is a perfectly relevant question to ask the OP why he is focused so much on a small town when he claims he only cares about "the bigger picture." |
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