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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:21:14 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Our old F and R's did not have flight data/ voice recorders..there was an empty rack in the tail near the ramp/ after door for one..but the system wasn't installed. It's been a while, but I don't recall if the T's from NY and Tx has them installed. This sucks. It's mandated. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:24:47 PM EDT
[#2]
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There would have been a Loadmaster on board, it had pax and cargo on board. Required for USN and USMC legacy Hercs when carrying pax and cargo, it's probably the same for the J's. But now that I think about it, it was our own people..and was rare. They'd be on this flight. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:28:13 PM EDT
[#3]
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Reading the reports, it sounds like the cockpit separated from the fuselage before the plane hit the ground. Wings still attached would seem to preclude turbulence, because they should break first. Explosion? Catastrophic engine failure that launched an entire prop through the fuselage like a buzz saw? I had been wondering about the possibility of a cargo door blowout at altitude, but the crash looks like the doors are still there. But the cockpit separating from the rest of the plane... If this is actually a J model then the entire world is going to be screwed while the fleet is grounded. If it's a T model, then they may have just seen their last flights. Sad for the crews' and passengers' families, friends and squadron mates. But a problem that grounds the entire C-130 fleet takes this beyond a tragedy within the USMC aviation community, it becomes a crisis riding on that tragedy's coattails. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:30:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would explain bodies being found miles away from the crash site. But HOW TF does a C-130 cockpit separate from the rest of the airframe? Wings still attached would seem to preclude turbulence, because they should break first. Explosion? Catastrophic engine failure that launched an entire prop through the fuselage like a buzz saw? I had been wondering about the possibility of a cargo door blowout at altitude, but the crash looks like the doors are still there. But the cockpit separating from the rest of the plane... If this is actually a J model then the entire world is going to be screwed while the fleet is grounded. If it's a T model, then they may have just seen their last flights. Sad for the crews' and passengers' families, friends and squadron mates. But a problem that grounds the entire C-130 fleet takes this beyond a tragedy within the USMC aviation community, it becomes a crisis riding on that tragedy's coattails. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:31:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Any chance a rotor or blade flew off?
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:33:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The KC-135 out of Manas a few years ago tore itself apart in flight. Rudder boost malfunction I believe. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That would explain bodies being found miles away from the crash site. But HOW TF does a C-130 cockpit separate from the rest of the airframe? Wings still attached would seem to preclude turbulence, because they should break first. Explosion? Catastrophic engine failure that launched an entire prop through the fuselage like a buzz saw? I had been wondering about the possibility of a cargo door blowout at altitude, but the crash looks like the doors are still there. But the cockpit separating from the rest of the plane... If this is actually a J model then the entire world is going to be screwed while the fleet is grounded. If it's a T model, then they may have just seen their last flights. Sad for the crews' and passengers' families, friends and squadron mates. But a problem that grounds the entire C-130 fleet takes this beyond a tragedy within the USMC aviation community, it becomes a crisis riding on that tragedy's coattails. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:33:39 PM EDT
[#7]
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We've had load's load and lock down a pallet and a few pax and NOT be on board when we're going from A to B and we got people to offload.. A Loadmaster was also required for all polar flights. The only time a Loadmaster was not required was no pax no cargo, then an observer or another crew member could perform the pre/in-flight/post checks/inspections that the Loadmaster would normally do. Crazy not to carry a Loadmaster with pax or cargo since there are boldfaced emergency procedures that the loadmaster has to perform. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:34:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The KC-135 out of Manas a few years ago tore itself apart in flight. Rudder boost malfunction I believe. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:34:41 PM EDT
[#9]
MARSOC has confirmed 6 of the Marines and the Corpsman were theirs.
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:35:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If this is actually a J model The Marine reserves out of New York fly KC-130T's. The official Marine news release states it was a KC-130T. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:36:34 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:36:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not a J model. The Marine reserves out of New York fly KC-130T's. The official Marine news release states it was a KC-130T. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:38:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It wasn't a C-130J, it was a Marine Reserve KC-130T from New York. They were transporting a MARSOC team. The entire team may not have been on board the Herc, sometimes they send an ADVON out before the main DET. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was afraid of that but something aint making sense then . C-130 J crew is 3 They were transporting a MARSOC team. The entire team may not have been on board the Herc, sometimes they send an ADVON out before the main DET. Their "cargo" would have been highly unusual, and the FBI has an interest in protecting the wreckage. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:44:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yaw damper issue that (with other issues) lead to dutch roll. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That would explain bodies being found miles away from the crash site. But HOW TF does a C-130 cockpit separate from the rest of the airframe? Wings still attached would seem to preclude turbulence, because they should break first. Explosion? Catastrophic engine failure that launched an entire prop through the fuselage like a buzz saw? I had been wondering about the possibility of a cargo door blowout at altitude, but the crash looks like the doors are still there. But the cockpit separating from the rest of the plane... If this is actually a J model then the entire world is going to be screwed while the fleet is grounded. If it's a T model, then they may have just seen their last flights. Sad for the crews' and passengers' families, friends and squadron mates. But a problem that grounds the entire C-130 fleet takes this beyond a tragedy within the USMC aviation community, it becomes a crisis riding on that tragedy's coattails. . One of my best friends was the IP for AC on that flight. Hit him hard.
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:44:26 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MARSOC's mission, and much of their unorthodox equipment, is frequently classified. Their "cargo" would have been highly unusual, and the FBI has an interest in protecting the wreckage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I was afraid of that but something aint making sense then . C-130 J crew is 3 They were transporting a MARSOC team. The entire team may not have been on board the Herc, sometimes they send an ADVON out before the main DET. Their "cargo" would have been highly unusual, and the FBI has an interest in protecting the wreckage. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:46:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And sometimes you just use what you have handy until the actual correct answer is available on scene. I don't doubt that the FBI could get there before the NCIS agents could arrive. Peetty sure the FBI has a Field Office in Memphis and Jackson, MS. I doubt NICS does. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:47:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup. That was improperly handled yaw damp issue. Could have been survivable . One of my best friends was the IP for AC on that flight. Hit him hard. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:48:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it's a T model The USAF is not going to retire their H models. There are only 4 (lockheed) models of the C-130. YC-130 = Model 082 C-130A = Model 182 C-130B = Model 282 C-130E = Model 382 C-130H = Model 382 C-130R = Model 382 Anything else is a subset of one of those models. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:49:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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LOL, and you worked on Air Force C130's? They're hanging on the copilot's side just aft of the 245. If you worked on C130's, you know what the 245 is. Are you talking station numbers? I loaded cargo and pax, and had exactly zero reason to go into the cockpit, nor was it my job to give a fuck about what crew equipment was on board. I spoke to the load who was in the back. You can open the doors regardless of the cargo load. I know that. My point was depending on cargo, getting to them may be difficult. Releasing cargo in an H is a lot different than in a J from what I remember. The Js have electronic cargo locks vs the mechanical once the previous models have. Though I never fucked with any of that shit either, aside from the manual pallet locks in position 6. It's also been a few years since I set foot on one, so I may misremembering. You're right that they probably wouldn't have had time, and they were, from the looks of things, in a flat spin *AND* inverted, so there probably wasn't a lot of people standing. I don't think anyone was belted in. I'd say that close to 99% of the time I fly, nobody is wearing their seatbelt. If that was SOP in this instance, I'd be astonished if they could have gotten the plane righted and flying again as they ping ponged around the inside, much less get to and put on a seatbelt. Scary shit. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:51:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Truth. That crash site looks to have had damn near 100% vertical airspeed. Almost no forward component to it. Damn...
What's the typical cruise speed of a KC-130? |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 3:52:35 PM EDT
[#21]
What would MARSOC have on board that would blow the cockpit off of a C130 from the inside if it went screwy? Flight profile, no distress call, and reports of a midair explosion have me wondering if aerodynamic failure was not the case here. Granted you want to aviate before communicating, which explains no distress call, but that plane looks real intact for some sort of catestrophic failure at 20,000 feet caused by a structural failure.
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Posted: 7/11/2017 4:04:31 PM EDT
[#22]
I transported 15,000 lbs of good ole Dyno Nobel dynamite to an outcamp in Antarctica in 1995.
No passengers on board. The next plane that came in was carrying 5,000 lbs of blasting caps and fuses. When it was time to leave the camp the retarded pilot had them load the dynamite and the blasting caps together on the plane. 
I was not part of that clusterfuck evolution. The Loadmaster and the pilot got in some deep shit over that one. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 4:06:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 245 is the wall at the front end of the cargo area where they store the stanchions and assorted shit. On the J model it's where the computer that controls the locks is located. In the cargo area, just aft of the 245 on the right side is where the parachutes hang. Right where you were setting the locks on E/H models just inside the crew door is the 245. I don't think anyone was belted in. I'd say that close to 99% of the time I fly, nobody is wearing their seatbelt. If that was SOP in this instance, I'd be astonished if they could have gotten the plane righted and flying again as they ping ponged around the inside, much less get to and put on a seatbelt. Scary shit. Also, from the video, it looks like everything from 245 forward is gone... |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 4:09:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pax may not wear them, but flying aircrew do 100% of the time... Also, from the video, it looks like everything from 245 forward is gone... |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 4:13:58 PM EDT
[#25]
NVM..read wrong.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10 years as a Loadmaster, and while I wore my seatbelt most of the time, it certainly wasn't 100% of the time. Most of the time we were belted in, unless you were a load master sleeping on top of mail..Up front, we were belted in if not moving around. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 4:14:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think anyone was belted in. I'd say that close to 99% of the time I fly, nobody is wearing their seatbelt. If that was SOP in this instance, I'd be astonished if they could have gotten the plane righted and flying again as they ping ponged around the inside, much less get to and put on a seatbelt. Scary shit. The fuselage was twisted after the crash with the cockpit being upside down. The engineer was knocked out, when he came to he was looking at the upper instrument panel, upside down, still strapped in his seat. The panel was lit up like a Christmas tree. His first words were "I think we have an engine out". Before the crew had a chance to stop him he released his belts and fell out of the chair. They could not get out due to the twisted fuselage and the cargo that had broke loose during the crash and was blocking the 245 "stairway". They had to take the crash axe and chop out the side window. 
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Posted: 7/11/2017 4:15:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10 years as a Loadmaster, and while I wore my seatbelt most of the time, it certainly wasn't 100% of the time. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 4:23:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Their Confirming on the News here in NC 6 Marines and 1 Corpsman were from Camp Luejene.
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Posted: 7/11/2017 4:23:14 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pax may not wear them, but flying aircrew do 100% of the time... Also, from the video, it looks like everything from 245 forward is gone... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The 245 is the wall at the front end of the cargo area where they store the stanchions and assorted shit. On the J model it's where the computer that controls the locks is located. In the cargo area, just aft of the 245 on the right side is where the parachutes hang. Right where you were setting the locks on E/H models just inside the crew door is the 245. I don't think anyone was belted in. I'd say that close to 99% of the time I fly, nobody is wearing their seatbelt. If that was SOP in this instance, I'd be astonished if they could have gotten the plane righted and flying again as they ping ponged around the inside, much less get to and put on a seatbelt. Scary shit. Also, from the video, it looks like everything from 245 forward is gone... C-130 Damage from In-Flight Prop Separation |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 5:21:21 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryMost active duty 130's had a red line painted in the inside, showing the arc of the props. I never sat near that line. You never know... Those props would go through the plane like it was butter.
Edit: Not applicable here but the load master is often one of the lookouts for AA fire/rocket trails over a combat zone, so rarely belted in. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 5:31:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Big Update Confirms now what we thought
Linky Military cargo plane that 'exploded at 20,000 feet' and crashed killing 16 was carrying an elite special forces-ops Marine unit, equipment and ammunition that may have contributed to the fatal accident Officials are investigating whether ammunition and weaponry aboard the military plane that crashed killing an elite group of Marines, could have caused the mid-air explosion. Seven members of the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC) were aboard the Lockheed KC-130T on Monday, when it exploded at 20,000 feet and crashed into a soybean field in in LeFlore County, Mississippi. The six Marines and one Navy sailor from MARSOC, all from the Camp Lejeune-based 2d Marine Raider Battalion, North Carolina, had been flying from the nearby Air Station Cherry Point, for pre-deployment training at the Marine Corps Air Station Yuma. All seven members of the special forces were killed in the crash, alongside nine other military personnel and crew. 'Our thoughts and prayers are with the entire MARSOC family at this time,' the MARSOC chief of staff said in a statement. 'The incredible demands of this dangerous and demanding calling forge some of the tightest unit and family bonds found in the U.S. military. This loss impacts us all.' |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 5:32:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most active duty 130's had a red line painted in the inside, showing the arc of the props. I never sat near that line. You never know... Those props would go through the plane like it was butter. Edit: Not applicable here but the load master is often one of the lookouts for AA fire/rocket trails over a combat zone, so rarely belted in. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 5:36:27 PM EDT
[#33]
Damn. Carrying dangerous cargo is part of the life. RIP to all those dead.
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Posted: 7/11/2017 5:45:09 PM EDT
[#34]
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Even then I would expect Navy criminal investigators to take the lead. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have not read the entire thread, but I saw a news report saying the FBI is involved now. Any ideas on that? Mike Those LA guys....well, I guess Deeks might be free. The fella down in weeziana I think are all dead of something. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 5:49:27 PM EDT
[#35]
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Any chance a rotor or blade flew off? Edit: Here you go. I don't remember it being an Arab Herc and it's #3, but it shows you where the prop blade hits, and you can see it's right on the line. If this happened in flight... 
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Posted: 7/11/2017 5:50:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Big Update Confirms now what we thought
Linky Military cargo plane that 'exploded at 20,000 feet' and crashed killing 16 was carrying an elite special forces-ops Marine unit, equipment and ammunition that may have contributed to the fatal accident Officials are investigating whether ammunition and weaponry aboard the military plane that crashed killing an elite group of Marines, could have caused the mid-air explosion. Seven members of the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC) were aboard the Lockheed KC-130T on Monday, when it exploded at 20,000 feet and crashed into a soybean field in in LeFlore County, Mississippi. The six Marines and one Navy sailor from MARSOC, all from the Camp Lejeune-based 2d Marine Raider Battalion, North Carolina, had been flying from the nearby Air Station Cherry Point, for pre-deployment training at the Marine Corps Air Station Yuma. All seven members of the special forces were killed in the crash, alongside nine other military personnel and crew. 'Our thoughts and prayers are with the entire MARSOC family at this time,' the MARSOC chief of staff said in a statement. 'The incredible demands of this dangerous and demanding calling forge some of the tightest unit and family bonds found in the U.S. military. This loss impacts us all.' |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:12:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We had a triple nuts at 234. Same one? I don't remember the first three, but pretty sure it the same Edit:. Now I'm thinking it was 162000  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:16:51 PM EDT
[#38]
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That's a pretty big piece of bang if an AD of something took down the plane. We may never know what Exactly happened only thing is now that truly matters is 16 Families are with out their loved ones.
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:26:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When that was the case, we often, if not all the time, strapped in. I can't speak for other squadrons' aircraft, but we had small seats bolted to the troop doors, as well as seat belt hard points. We strapped in, because if they're gonna have to maneuver, we didn't want to get tossed around. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most active duty 130's had a red line painted in the inside, showing the arc of the props. I never sat near that line. You never know... Those props would go through the plane like it was butter. Edit: Not applicable here but the load master is often one of the lookouts for AA fire/rocket trails over a combat zone, so rarely belted in. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:27:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Interesting that this comment from the NYT article is the only time seen mention of someone attempting to parachute out:
Clarence Garrard was working at a cluster of commercial catfish ponds nearby when he heard a noise that at first he thought was thunder. He said he turned to see the doomed aircraft twisting and losing altitude, and saw one person jump from it and open a parachute. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:28:02 PM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:32:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 245 is the wall at the front end of the cargo area where they store the stanchions and assorted shit. On the J model it's where the computer that controls the locks is located. In the cargo area, just aft of the 245 on the right side is where the parachutes hang. Right where you were setting the locks on E/H models just inside the crew door is the 245. I don't think anyone was belted in. I'd say that close to 99% of the time I fly, nobody is wearing their seatbelt. If that was SOP in this instance, I'd be astonished if they could have gotten the plane righted and flying again as they ping ponged around the inside, much less get to and put on a seatbelt. Scary shit. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:44:38 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They never belted me in(secondary lookout). We were up high, all doors closed and looking out windows. It was only occasional AA threats, not a highly active area, and not a special aircraft/pax. Enough said, sorry for the detour. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most active duty 130's had a red line painted in the inside, showing the arc of the props. I never sat near that line. You never know... Those props would go through the plane like it was butter. Edit: Not applicable here but the load master is often one of the lookouts for AA fire/rocket trails over a combat zone, so rarely belted in. *These were AF H-3 models. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:48:36 PM EDT
[#44]
I'm guessing the fires have been put out by now. Have there been any newer images of the aircraft sans fire? It would be interesting to count engines and props.
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:50:51 PM EDT
[#45]
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A military safety board investigates military accidents. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I heard the same report. Who would normally investigate a military incident? NTSB or Military? Prayers out to all involved. I've been retired since '85 - this shit still upsets me. I can't imagine how members here who worked on that aircraft or possibly knew the crew must feel. Stay strong brothers - RIP to the fallen. Also, while it seems fun for some here to speculate on what the cause was, its pointless to even go down that route. Let the investigation run its course. There are very smart investigators and engineers at Lockheed who will nail down the cause in due time. The DFDR (digital flight data recorder) and CVR (cockpit voice recorder) will yield some answers very quickly. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 6:54:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Damn.
That reporter in the OP link wasn't very subtle, "We are being kept 5 miles from the crashed plane due to airplane parts being strewn all over, and body parts." I doubt anything "normal" happened, it's probably a new defect that they'll retrofit for or something. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 7:04:21 PM EDT
[#47]
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I'm guessing the fires have been put out by now. Have there been any newer images of the aircraft sans fire? It would be interesting to count engines and props. Source 
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Posted: 7/11/2017 7:13:11 PM EDT
[#48]
It was said the cockpit was found 1 mile away from the main wreckage.
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Posted: 7/11/2017 7:19:16 PM EDT
[#49]
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It was said the cockpit was found 1 mile away from the main wreckage. If true, that's a hell of an unusual failure mode for a C-130. Could have been a catastrophic gearbox/prop failure, but there are a dozen safety features designed to prevent that from happening. |
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Posted: 7/11/2017 7:20:04 PM EDT
[#50]
RIP Semper Fi brothers! |
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