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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:28:11 PM EDT
[#1]
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I boil it first How much lye would it take to bring 3.5 million acre feet of water to a boil? 
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:28:22 PM EDT
[#2]
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Looks like they are down there clearing the river. http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/57/11/57/12360651/7/1024x1024.jpg That guy better be making $300/hr........minimum. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:29:27 PM EDT
[#3]
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I believe he was being sarcastic, to illustrate the absurdity of how liberals "think" (using their feelz of course) and how they prioritize things. Jesus I feel like an idiot now.This thread is moving so fast my rational thinking wasn't keeping up. 
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:29:45 PM EDT
[#4]
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yes. I suspect so. What I found interesting about is that there was a fair amount of speculation (here and elsewhere) that the crack in the bedrock downstream of the weir near the parking lot junction was the disaster in waiting and what may have led to the declaring imminent failure of the espillway. But as of the latest pictures they are not working on that area at all. I'm not following the why on fixing the far end road. They are going to spend beaucoup $ fixing roads, spillways, etc. saving that road seems - odd. Its a couple hundred feet from the end of the parking lot weir to that corner - who cares if that corner washes out? Placing bags o' rock there is not going to change the source of the water that is causing the washout (if thats the problem). The topography may direct a bit of spill water from the parking area off in that direction down a different ravine to the river - maybe they are worried about debris and power line structures down there. dunno. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ìnteresting. The work is being done at the base of the highest portion of the weir and along the road between it and the primary spillway. Nothing on the hole where the main weir ends and the smaller weir along the parking lot begins. Doesnt show the far end of the lot at all. yes. I suspect so. What I found interesting about is that there was a fair amount of speculation (here and elsewhere) that the crack in the bedrock downstream of the weir near the parking lot junction was the disaster in waiting and what may have led to the declaring imminent failure of the espillway. But as of the latest pictures they are not working on that area at all. I'm not following the why on fixing the far end road. They are going to spend beaucoup $ fixing roads, spillways, etc. saving that road seems - odd. Its a couple hundred feet from the end of the parking lot weir to that corner - who cares if that corner washes out? Placing bags o' rock there is not going to change the source of the water that is causing the washout (if thats the problem). The topography may direct a bit of spill water from the parking area off in that direction down a different ravine to the river - maybe they are worried about debris and power line structures down there. dunno. I believe the road is being fixed so that they can run trucks to the trouble areas. Using helicopters is both expensive and inefficient for the amount of mass they need to move. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:29:51 PM EDT
[#5]
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Explosions at the base of a nearly full reservoir? What could go wrong?  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I found a report that says the river valve outlet was partially repaired in 2014, and tested in 2014 - 2015 up to half capacity. Since the river valve uses the same tunnels as the plant, they can not open it without further flooding to the plant due to the debri at the end of the spillway backing up the water. They use howitzers to clear avalanche build ups, why not drop some precision guided munitions on the debris build up to clear it out? |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:29:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same arguement from the early pages of the thread, dropping the surface of the lake 30+ feet is preferable to watching the dam fail from overtopping Except dams/lakes/spillways don't fail like that. The water typically will cut a channel from point A. (the low point of the reservoir) to Point B (the low point outside of the reservoir.) If the Espillway fails, it won't just drop the top 30 feet off and that be it. It is all going that same as if the dam were breached. If it doesn't take all, it will be close to all. The power of the water concentrated at the breach is too powerful. It was starting to happen. Look at the pics. The channel on the outside was already formed. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:32:01 PM EDT
[#7]
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But the hillside I snuck down must've been completely covered with poison oak. Fels Naptha bar soap works wonders on the ivy. He can find that in the laundry soap aisle in Walmart |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:32:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Does anyone know the normal full level of the lake?
At its "normal full" level is the water supposed to be contacting the weir or just up to it? |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:34:27 PM EDT
[#9]
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With ~98k CCFS outflow, its dropping at about 3.85 feet per 12hrs. Looks like they only have 36hrs before the next big storm. That's not going to be good. It's interesting the way the inflow and level drop numbers are fluxuating. Inflow has been anywhere from 18k to 43k in the past six hours. Drop has been as much as .54 and as little as .27 No real trend, just jumping around. I wonder if it is a data issue or if the flow really is that varied. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:34:47 PM EDT
[#10]
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It's used in hydro test because it behaves essentially incompressible - which means if the test article breaks or leaks, it looses pressure nearly instantaneously and doesn't become a bomb - like a scuba tank or something. Used to have items pressure tested to several thousand psi. You do not want something pressurized with air to many thousands of lbs of pressure - you basically have a bomb if it lets loose. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is taken into account in a pipeline hydrotest. The pipe is filled with water and pressurized greater than the MAOP (maximum allowable operating pressure) of the line so if it's inclined to rupture it does so with water rather than whatever was planned to go in it. It would be common to see tests at 1,800 psi. The compresibility varies by temperature. It's not much...that's a big part of why water is used. It's used in hydro test because it behaves essentially incompressible - which means if the test article breaks or leaks, it looses pressure nearly instantaneously and doesn't become a bomb - like a scuba tank or something. Used to have items pressure tested to several thousand psi. You do not want something pressurized with air to many thousands of lbs of pressure - you basically have a bomb if it lets loose. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:35:26 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except dams/lakes/spillways don't fail like that. The water typically will cut a channel from point A. (the low point of the reservoir) to Point B (the low point outside of the reservoir.) If the Espillway fails, it won't just drop the top 30 feet off and that be it. It is all going that same as if the dam were breached. If it doesn't take all, it will be close to all. The power of the water concentrated at the breach is too powerful. It was starting to happen. Look at the pics. The channel on the outside was already formed. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:37:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the emergency spillway runs the length of the parking lot. However it does switch from the weir shape to something else that only appears as a speed bump above ground. Water flowed over that speed bump just like the rest of the Emergency spillway... water was spread over the ground there until it formed into channels... one of which was forced left by the road. That spot they are evidently concerned about because that's where they were dropping the rock bags yesterday. They probably don't want that road washing out there... which it definitely would do if flow had continued. I thought it was strange they are filling that gully. When they first mentioned it, it sounded like they were doing something at the end of weir in the parking lot. But you can see from the video that idiot took from within the spill zone, that the weir is uphill from the gully. In the first few seconds looking uphill it doesn't seem like there is any white water on the end section. I think they are more trying to divert water back to the east and toward the already washed out road to prevent a breech of the roadway there going on down hill and cutting another channel to the river. This still doesn't put to rest what is going to happen with the western end of the wier if the level goes up up to 2 or 3 feet over the weir. Does water just run around the end and scour a channel to bedrock? Or does it zipper the whole lower weir out? Ogee spillways, from what I've read this last week, should have a stilling basin in front of them. Water slides down the spillway, into the basin and away to where ever. At Oroville there is lip at the bottom and an ever steeper hillside. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:37:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Just started watching, but this looks like they're working in earnest in the main e-spill area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9MSHoVL2g |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:37:40 PM EDT
[#14]
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It's been discussed many times in this thread. There is a distinction between the two and how emergency flows are handled. IE, one of them would require the emergency spill to have concrete paved down. Apparently there was some environmentalists throwing a fit about that fact and they changed the classification in order to avoid the work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It was always a water storage dam from its inception along with hydroelectric generation and flood control. Where did you get the idea it was only built for flood control? It's been discussed many times in this thread. There is a distinction between the two and how emergency flows are handled. IE, one of them would require the emergency spill to have concrete paved down. Apparently there was some environmentalists throwing a fit about that fact and they changed the classification in order to avoid the work. The Oroville dam was one of the first key pieces built for the State Water Project. The purpose of the State Water Project was to capture water and deliver it south for irrigation, industrial use, and drinking water. Also to generate hydroelectric power as immense amounts of electrical power are needed for pumps etc throughout the system. And also providing flood control. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:39:05 PM EDT
[#15]
has there been any talk of closing the main spillway to get a look at the damage from the 100K release?
or has the main spillway become the epsill and they will not shut it down, ie. the lake level has to lower below the spillway intake before they will see the damage. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:39:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except dams/lakes/spillways don't fail like that. The water typically will cut a channel from point A. (the low point of the reservoir) to Point B (the low point outside of the reservoir.) If the Espillway fails, it won't just drop the top 30 feet off and that be it. It is all going that same as if the dam were breached. If it doesn't take all, it will be close to all. The power of the water concentrated at the breach is too powerful. It was starting to happen. Look at the pics. The channel on the outside was already formed. earthen dams will fail from over topping because you create an erosion path that accelerates as it erodes. If the weir were to let loose - that would be unlikely to happen because you have primarily bedrock below it. You'd have a huge outpouring of water to the level of failure (which would be really bad downstream) but if the rock under the weir is reasonably solid it would stop at that point. If the ground between the primary spillway and the end of the parking lot is fill, rather than natural rock, then it would carve out a path and keep draining the reservoir until it did hit rock. The few drawings that have cropped up seem to indicate the bottom of the weir is to be on rock. The geologists / rock guys here will have to comment on the ability of the fractured surface rock shown to erode slowly enough to prevent catastrophic failure of the rock itself. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:39:23 PM EDT
[#17]
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That guy better be making $300/hr........minimum. I was thinking the same thing. I realize that it's not likely that the dam will fail at this point, but still... I'd be watching that giant wall of dirt very closely while trying to do my job (for whatever reason I dunno... it's not like he could get out of there in time if it failed). |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:40:43 PM EDT
[#18]
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I believe the road is being fixed so that they can run trucks to the trouble areas. Using helicopters is both expensive and inefficient for the amount of mass they need to move. Yeah, but it's looks way cool and important and stuff. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:40:49 PM EDT
[#19]
Updates? I been busy since they ordered the evac
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:41:45 PM EDT
[#20]
Oroville Dam made the White House presser. Emphasized White House working with the 1st District's Representative and other officials... no mention of the Gov.
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:43:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jesus I feel like an idiot now.This thread is moving so fast my rational thinking wasn't keeping up. No worries... this thread has been moving faster than any Arf thread that I remember over the past 14 years. At least any thread that I participated in. It's kind of like the ultimate vehicle pile-up. We're all driving by slowly, gawking, Monday morning quarterbacking, and in total awe of the forces involved. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:44:48 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
earthen dams will fail from over topping because you create an erosion path that accelerates as it erodes. If the weir were to let loose - that would be unlikely to happen because you have primarily bedrock below it. You'd have a huge outpouring of water to the level of failure (which would be really bad downstream) but if the rock under the weir is reasonably solid it would stop at that point. If the ground between the primary spillway and the end of the parking lot is fill, rather than natural rock, then it would carve out a path and keep draining the reservoir until it did hit rock. The few drawings that have cropped up seem to indicate the bottom of the weir is to be on rock. The geologists / rock guys here will have to comment on the ability of the fractured surface rock shown to erode slowly enough to prevent catastrophic failure of the rock itself. Did you see all of those cracks? All of that side of the mountain will end up in the ocean if the water is high enough to flow over the Espillway and there is a breach. They know that and that is why they are not going to let any more water go over that spillway. None. Not a drop. Watch and see. They will open the gates wide-open and lat the chips fall where they may before throttling that flow back again. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:45:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Same arguement from the early pages of the thread, dropping the surface of the lake 30+ feet is preferable to watching the dam fail from overtopping Given that the dam proper and the spillway gatehouse share a road on top and the gatehouse and dam are the same height, the picture bellow should illustrate the fact that the e-weir is somewhat lower. 
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:45:59 PM EDT
[#24]
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I can't tell if you're agreeing with me when I indicate "It's not much...that's a big part of why it is used" or what. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is taken into account in a pipeline hydrotest. The pipe is filled with water and pressurized greater than the MAOP (maximum allowable operating pressure) of the line so if it's inclined to rupture it does so with water rather than whatever was planned to go in it. It would be common to see tests at 1,800 psi. The compresibility varies by temperature. It's not much...that's a big part of why water is used. It's used in hydro test because it behaves essentially incompressible - which means if the test article breaks or leaks, it looses pressure nearly instantaneously and doesn't become a bomb - like a scuba tank or something. Used to have items pressure tested to several thousand psi. You do not want something pressurized with air to many thousands of lbs of pressure - you basically have a bomb if it lets loose. I agree. I've been around smaller items (i.e. rocket engine components) pressurized to many thousands of lbs of pressure. They are always tested in a secure enclosure. Failures can certainly be dramatic - but nothing like they would be if pressurized with a highly compressible substance. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:46:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It being discussed doesn't make it so. The Oroville dam was one of the first key pieces built for the State Water Project. The purpose of the State Water Project was to capture water and deliver it south for irrigation, industrial use, and drinking water. Also to generate hydroelectric power as immense amounts of electrical power are needed for pumps etc throughout the system. And also providing flood control. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It was always a water storage dam from its inception along with hydroelectric generation and flood control. Where did you get the idea it was only built for flood control? It's been discussed many times in this thread. There is a distinction between the two and how emergency flows are handled. IE, one of them would require the emergency spill to have concrete paved down. Apparently there was some environmentalists throwing a fit about that fact and they changed the classification in order to avoid the work. The Oroville dam was one of the first key pieces built for the State Water Project. The purpose of the State Water Project was to capture water and deliver it south for irrigation, industrial use, and drinking water. Also to generate hydroelectric power as immense amounts of electrical power are needed for pumps etc throughout the system. And also providing flood control. Lake Meade would LOVE to have all of this runoff (and no doubt could easily handle it as low as it's been for the past several years). It's too bad it couldn't be piped over there. Even if it were possible... the tree-hugging idiots in CA would oppose it simply because they are flat-out contrarians |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:47:04 PM EDT
[#26]
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Considering the amount of times the deferred repairs topic has been brought up, that was taken as granted in my post. I was only addressing the statement that they were out of use entirely. According to the contractor report, the river valve repairs were initiated to allow draining water from the lake for other uses in drought conditions when the level gets below the pump/powerplant lakeside tunnel entries, not as a safety feature to allow draining it between the powerplant and spillway operating levels. Apparently all interest in fully repairing the valve system by installing a new baffle ring evaporated the moment the reservoir level rose above the lowest drought levels and the hydro plant could be operated normally again. IIRC the same report put the flow capacity of the two diversion tunnels at 165k during the construction of the dam. I guess it might be possible to bore through the lake bottom to these tunnels from above with oil drilling equipment, but controlling their flow would be a major problem. And it would probably ruin the powerplant, if it's not badly flooded already. Another option might be to install bigger valves in both tunnels and then bore through the roofs. Doesn't seem like something that could be planned and implemented in a big hurry though. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:47:07 PM EDT
[#27]
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Just started watching, but this looks like they're working in earnest in the main e-spill area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9MSHoVL2g Couple observations: Looks like they set up lights along the main spillway last night. They're watching it closely. Worried? The scale of the thing really comes through with those vehicles there. Frankly, looks like trying to patch a swimming pool with a cup of gravel... they've been busting ass for days moving material and there's just not that much new material there to work with. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:47:20 PM EDT
[#28]
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taxation is theft. I'll do it with my tannerite and muh rifle Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I found a report that says the river valve outlet was partially repaired in 2014, and tested in 2014 - 2015 up to half capacity. Since the river valve uses the same tunnels as the plant, they can not open it without further flooding to the plant due to the debri at the end of the spillway backing up the water. They use howitzers to clear avalanche build ups, why not drop some precision guided munitions on the debris build up to clear it out?  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:48:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much lye would it take to bring 3.5 million acre feet of water to a boil? 
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:50:36 PM EDT
[#30]
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I don't know, but I've read that the dam proper is some 20' taller than the e-weir. The dam itself will never be overtopped. Given that the dam proper and the spillway gatehouse share a road on top and the gatehouse and dam are the same height, the picture bellow should illustrate the fact that the e-weir is somewhat lower. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Oroville_dam.jpg There is 21' from the top of the weir to the top of the dam. So that weir is something like 60' high at that point. There is concrete weir structure all the way to the far side of the parking lot. It's not as substantial as the weir section shown here. Somewhere out there there is a photograph that clearly shows it, I just can't seem to find it. The drawings of the dam showed it and showed the 2 different sections. It does not show how it is anchored or even if it is anchored to the rock. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:51:07 PM EDT
[#31]
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No worries... this thread has been moving faster than any Arf thread that I remember over the past 14 years. At least any thread that I participated in. It's kind of like the ultimate vehicle pile-up. We're all driving by slowly, gawking, Monday morning quarterbacking, and in total awe of the forces involved. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jesus I feel like an idiot now.This thread is moving so fast my rational thinking wasn't keeping up. No worries... this thread has been moving faster than any Arf thread that I remember over the past 14 years. At least any thread that I participated in. It's kind of like the ultimate vehicle pile-up. We're all driving by slowly, gawking, Monday morning quarterbacking, and in total awe of the forces involved. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:52:37 PM EDT
[#32]
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There is 21' from the top of the weir to the top of the dam. So that weir is something like 60' high at that point. There is concrete weir structure all the way to the far side of the parking lot. It's not as substantial as the weir section shown here. Somewhere out there there is a photograph that clearly shows it, I just can't seem to find it. The drawings of the dam showed it and showed the 2 different sections. It does not show how it is anchored or even if it is anchored to the rock. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:52:43 PM EDT
[#33]
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Just started watching, but this looks like they're working in earnest in the main e-spill area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9MSHoVL2g That's a really good view. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:54:32 PM EDT
[#34]
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Except dams/lakes/spillways don't fail like that. The water typically will cut a channel from point A. (the low point of the reservoir) to Point B (the low point outside of the reservoir.) If the Espillway fails, it won't just drop the top 30 feet off and that be it. It is all going that same as if the dam were breached. If it doesn't take all, it will be close to all. The power of the water concentrated at the breach is too powerful. It was starting to happen. Look at the pics. The channel on the outside was already formed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Same arguement from the early pages of the thread, dropping the surface of the lake 30+ feet is preferable to watching the dam fail from overtopping Except dams/lakes/spillways don't fail like that. The water typically will cut a channel from point A. (the low point of the reservoir) to Point B (the low point outside of the reservoir.) If the Espillway fails, it won't just drop the top 30 feet off and that be it. It is all going that same as if the dam were breached. If it doesn't take all, it will be close to all. The power of the water concentrated at the breach is too powerful. It was starting to happen. Look at the pics. The channel on the outside was already formed. I have been in here since the beginning and am aware of the failure areas. Here, Oroville, and others I have posted in this thread like Teton. The main danger with any earthen dam is overtopping. It will fail if you allow flow over the top. Yes they can fail other ways such as leakage thru or underneath but overflow is a guaranteed fail. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:54:45 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
earthen dams will fail from over topping because you create an erosion path that accelerates as it erodes. If the weir were to let loose - that would be unlikely to happen because you have primarily bedrock below it. You'd have a huge outpouring of water to the level of failure (which would be really bad downstream) but if the rock under the weir is reasonably solid it would stop at that point. If the ground between the primary spillway and the end of the parking lot is fill, rather than natural rock, then it would carve out a path and keep draining the reservoir until it did hit rock. The few drawings that have cropped up seem to indicate the bottom of the weir is to be on rock. The geologists / rock guys here will have to comment on the ability of the fractured surface rock shown to erode slowly enough to prevent catastrophic failure of the rock itself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
<strong>Quoted:</strong>
Except dams/lakes/spillways don't fail like that. The water typically will cut a channel from point A. (the low point of the reservoir) to Point B (the low point outside of the reservoir.) If the Espillway fails, it won't just drop the top 30 feet off and that be it. It is all going that same as if the dam were breached. If it doesn't take all, it will be close to all. The power of the water concentrated at the breach is too powerful. It was starting to happen. Look at the pics. The channel on the outside was already formed. earthen dams will fail from over topping because you create an erosion path that accelerates as it erodes. If the weir were to let loose - that would be unlikely to happen because you have primarily bedrock below it. You'd have a huge outpouring of water to the level of failure (which would be really bad downstream) but if the rock under the weir is reasonably solid it would stop at that point. If the ground between the primary spillway and the end of the parking lot is fill, rather than natural rock, then it would carve out a path and keep draining the reservoir until it did hit rock. The few drawings that have cropped up seem to indicate the bottom of the weir is to be on rock. The geologists / rock guys here will have to comment on the ability of the fractured surface rock shown to erode slowly enough to prevent catastrophic failure of the rock itself. I'd love to see real drawings of the facility. The incident report on the Teton dam failure posted in this thread (sorry, don't remember the page number) had actual drawings that showed the various rock/soil layers, compaction, etc. That would explain quite a bit about what we're speculating about. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:55:55 PM EDT
[#36]
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Some of us are currently in the flood zone if the thing fails. A flood zone that is absolutely massive, by the way. Just about everything along the Sacramento River, including most of Sacramento itself and the surrounding infill/suburb areas to the south/southwest. There are already some levee problems in the area. Roger that... and I certainly don't want to see loss of life or property. My prayers and thoughts are with you. Now... if this thing was in the middle of nowhere and had absolutely no effect of life and limb, then I'd want to see some catastrophic failure... just because it would be something to behold. But no... I don't want your home and belongings swept away. Stay safe and err on the side of caution. I know that I sure as hell would be staying out of the floodpath of that thing right now. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:57:16 PM EDT
[#37]
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Lake Meade would LOVE to have all of this runoff (and no doubt could easily handle it as low as it's been for the past several years). It's too bad it couldn't be piped over there. Even if it were possible... the tree-hugging idiots in CA would oppose it simply because they are flat-out contrarians Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It was always a water storage dam from its inception along with hydroelectric generation and flood control. Where did you get the idea it was only built for flood control? It's been discussed many times in this thread. There is a distinction between the two and how emergency flows are handled. IE, one of them would require the emergency spill to have concrete paved down. Apparently there was some environmentalists throwing a fit about that fact and they changed the classification in order to avoid the work. The Oroville dam was one of the first key pieces built for the State Water Project. The purpose of the State Water Project was to capture water and deliver it south for irrigation, industrial use, and drinking water. Also to generate hydroelectric power as immense amounts of electrical power are needed for pumps etc throughout the system. And also providing flood control. Lake Meade would LOVE to have all of this runoff (and no doubt could easily handle it as low as it's been for the past several years). It's too bad it couldn't be piped over there. Even if it were possible... the tree-hugging idiots in CA would oppose it simply because they are flat-out contrarians When the Oroville dam was being proposed, the powers in SoCal opposed it because they thought their rights to the Colorado river water would be taken away. Now they get water from both. It might be back to almost exclusively Colorado river water if there's a major breach in any of the structure. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:58:14 PM EDT
[#38]
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The Espill is on top of the hill. Even DWR is using 30 ft as the figure of lake drop. Say they reinforce the Espill and it holds perfectly and the water keeps climbing to the top of the dam, unlikely yes,but this dam isn't designed to be anywhere near this full. I have been in here since the beginning and am aware of the failure areas. Here, Oroville, and others I have posted in this thread like Teton. The main danger with any earthen dam is overtopping. It will fail if you allow flow over the top. Yes they can fail other ways such as leakage thru or underneath but overflow is a guaranteed fail. Yup. I've brought up the Teton damn since the early pages of this thread because images of that still haunt my memories as a kid. I grew-up in western Wyoming... just over the "hill" from that carnage and remember the stories of how that went down and the pictures. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:58:43 PM EDT
[#39]
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Couple observations: Looks like they set up lights along the main spillway last night. They're watching it closely. Worried? The scale of the thing really comes through with those vehicles there. Frankly, looks like trying to patch a swimming pool with a cup of gravel... they've been busting ass for days moving material and there's just not that much new material there to work with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just started watching, but this looks like they're working in earnest in the main e-spill area: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9MSHoVL2g" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9MSHoVL2g</a> Couple observations: Looks like they set up lights along the main spillway last night. They're watching it closely. Worried? The scale of the thing really comes through with those vehicles there. Frankly, looks like trying to patch a swimming pool with a cup of gravel... they've been busting ass for days moving material and there's just not that much new material there to work with. Lights on the remaining spillway is just being prudent. With the issues they have experienced, it would be negligent to be in the dark about the spillway's status |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 2:59:11 PM EDT
[#40]
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I agree. I've been around smaller items (i.e. rocket engine components) pressurized to many thousands of lbs of pressure. They are always tested in a secure enclosure. Failures can certainly be dramatic - but nothing like they would be if pressurized with a highly compressible substance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It is taken into account in a pipeline hydrotest. The pipe is filled with water and pressurized greater than the MAOP (maximum allowable operating pressure) of the line so if it's inclined to rupture it does so with water rather than whatever was planned to go in it. It would be common to see tests at 1,800 psi. The compresibility varies by temperature. It's not much...that's a big part of why water is used. It's used in hydro test because it behaves essentially incompressible - which means if the test article breaks or leaks, it looses pressure nearly instantaneously and doesn't become a bomb - like a scuba tank or something. Used to have items pressure tested to several thousand psi. You do not want something pressurized with air to many thousands of lbs of pressure - you basically have a bomb if it lets loose. I agree. I've been around smaller items (i.e. rocket engine components) pressurized to many thousands of lbs of pressure. They are always tested in a secure enclosure. Failures can certainly be dramatic - but nothing like they would be if pressurized with a highly compressible substance. 
In pipeline we can't really have a secure enclosure. A lot of the pipe will be buried which is safer but there are always exposed sections. It's definitely dangerous but, of course, water is much better than any alternative in our situation for the same reasons it is in yours. Better than finding out once product is moving through it like natural gas or whatever. I agree with the almost insignificant compresibility. I think it's in the neighborhood of 0.2%/1,000 psi. I guess we're off on a tangent...this is not really applicable or relevant to the dam. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:00:16 PM EDT
[#41]
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When the Oroville dam was being proposed, the powers in SoCal opposed it because they thought their rights to the Colorado river water would be taken away. Now they get water from both. It might be back to almost exclusively Colorado river water if there's a major breach in any of the structure. Nah, all the need to do is build a few hundred desal plants and a hundred or so nuke plants to run them easy peasy |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:01:02 PM EDT
[#42]
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Couple observations: Looks like they set up lights along the main spillway last night. They're watching it closely. Worried? The scale of the thing really comes through with those vehicles there. Frankly, looks like trying to patch a swimming pool with a cup of gravel... they've been busting ass for days moving material and there's just not that much new material there to work with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just started watching, but this looks like they're working in earnest in the main e-spill area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9MSHoVL2g Couple observations: Looks like they set up lights along the main spillway last night. They're watching it closely. Worried? The scale of the thing really comes through with those vehicles there. Frankly, looks like trying to patch a swimming pool with a cup of gravel... they've been busting ass for days moving material and there's just not that much new material there to work with. Good video of what is going on... I was expecting much more activity there... say 2X to 5X as many trucks/equipment. I'd bet Parker Schnabel would have more stuff there if he was in charge
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:01:35 PM EDT
[#43]
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... Come on, let's see a little leniency here. Most of these guys no formal experience, education or knowledge of mechanical engineering systems Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Water is not compressible. Depending on the distance between the debris and the face of the dam, using explosives could cause dam failures from the shockwaves. C'mon guys...you guys haven't seen Force 10 from Navarone? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/2980/force-10-from-navarone-146620.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/2980/thB2FCSQNH-146621.JPG ... Come on, let's see a little leniency here. Most of these guys no formal experience, education or knowledge of mechanical engineering systems But without that knowledge or experience, we can rely on Hollywood right? |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:03:13 PM EDT
[#44]
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There is 21' from the top of the weir to the top of the dam. So that weir is something like 60' high at that point. There is concrete weir structure all the way to the far side of the parking lot. It's not as substantial as the weir section shown here. Somewhere out there there is a photograph that clearly shows it, I just can't seem to find it. The drawings of the dam showed it and showed the 2 different sections. It does not show how it is anchored or even if it is anchored to the rock. Google street view in the parking lot. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:03:20 PM EDT
[#45]
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A view of the intake during construction and an overview of the site. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148098/IMG-0206-146633.png https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/148098/IMG-0207-146634.png http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/43/31/32/9279145/3/1024x1024.jpg |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:04:24 PM EDT
[#46]
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That's a really good view. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just started watching, but this looks like they're working in earnest in the main e-spill area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9MSHoVL2g That's a really good view. Also how big those erosion cuts are just below where they're moving equipment.
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:04:50 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote Historyyup, thats one of the ones I was remembering. thanks. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:05:12 PM EDT
[#48]
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Exactly, what difference does it make if its the dam, spillway or esplliway? Same effect, downstream is hosed, lakeside hones and businesses are hosed, the Cali water supply is hosed, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Except dams/lakes/spillways don't fail like that. The water typically will cut a channel from point A. (the low point of the reservoir) to Point B (the low point outside of the reservoir.) If the Espillway fails, it won't just drop the top 30 feet off and that be it. It is all going that same as if the dam were breached. If it doesn't take all, it will be close to all. The power of the water concentrated at the breach is too powerful. It was starting to happen. Look at the pics. The channel on the outside was already formed. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:06:22 PM EDT
[#49]
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Good find, much clearer picture! I believe thats the intake for the hydro plant, notice the dam is to the right of it. |
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Posted: 2/14/2017 3:08:08 PM EDT
[#50]
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Just started watching, but this looks like they're working in earnest in the main e-spill area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9MSHoVL2g |
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