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Posted: 6/12/2020 3:01:59 AM EDT
[#1]
It needs a SFA straight up full stop.
I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 3:09:17 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. Only things I don't like is the IFS, EB engine, and an asking price that is probably way too high for what it is. The 2.3 is my only concern. No one has been really impressed with it's performance in the Ranger. I'm sure it's capable of more power, but are they gonna make that happen? It needs 350hp to really blow the competition away. This ain't Japan in the '90s, with a stupid gentleman's agreement on horsepower. We need some one-upmanship in this class. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 3:22:02 AM EDT
[#3]
Kinda wanting one
definitely wanting to know more |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 3:59:44 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the Bronco is what it appears to be, the aftermarket is going to start cranking shit out. Especially overland style stuff. Any new product runs into the aftermarket issue, I'm sure they'll be fine. After reviewing the leaks, honestly I don't think this is going to be much of a threat to Wrangler sales. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 4:00:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many of those levers have actual physical linkages? More and more transmissions are shifted electronically, even if there's some kind of shift lever. The lever is just a big, expensive, space wasting electronic switch. My 4Runners is physically linked. Bitch could double as a vibrator for the wife in a pinch. 
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Posted: 6/12/2020 4:02:16 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't hold out for that as stock, but possibly an option. All that padded vinyl and poorly inserted bow just covers up what likely is a standard rollover spec steel roof. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Same. Especially if the roof is removable.  I wouldn't hold out for that as stock, but possibly an option. All that padded vinyl and poorly inserted bow just covers up what likely is a standard rollover spec steel roof. Why do you hurt me like this? |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 4:14:04 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It needs a SFA straight up full stop. I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand I don't think IFS is the problem with the FJ or 4Runner. The problem IMO is lack of power. A turbo diesel would give it the low end torque it desperately needs off road. It's 2020 and Toyota is selling a 4Runner with an almost 20 year old motor in it. There are production 4 cylinder engines that are putting out similar numbers. It's inexcusable especially when a TRD or TRD Pro is almost 50K. That is what Toyota is missing here. Right now their only competition is the Wrangler. They are able to steal market share away from the Wrangler because the Wrangler isn't as reliable, its loud inside, hot in the summer, cold in the winter and I haven't seen a Wrangler yet that didn't leak is some form or another within a few years of ownership. In contrast the 4Runner is reliable, comfortable and still capable. If Ford can make the Bronco the best of both of these worlds Toyota and Jeep are in trouble if they don't start innovating right now. Especially if it proves popular because I wouldn't be surprised if GM didn't get in on this in some fashion as well. A modern K5 would be  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 5:10:57 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After reviewing the leaks, honestly I don't think this is going to be much of a threat to Wrangler sales. I never said it would be. In the "overland market" you see more diversity but mainly Jeeps & Toyota's. That market is where Ford can compete and actually get customers. They will get their own buyers there and the Bronco appears competitive for those needs so it could get sales from former Wrangler or 4R owners. It won't be a huge percentage of Wrangler or 4R sales though, as people buy those "because Wrangler" and "because Toyota." That's not a threat, it's just a win for consumers, and it's likely a win for Ford. The removable top might get some non-hardcore Jeep owners also. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 7:01:43 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The company has more than enough write offs. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 7:52:47 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If Ford does well with the Bronco, read: takes market share from Jeep, then who else will take the plunge? |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 8:30:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 2.3 is my only concern. No one has been really impressed with it's performance in the Ranger. I'm sure it's capable of more power, but are they gonna make that happen? It needs 350hp to really blow the competition away. This ain't Japan in the '90s, with a stupid gentleman's agreement on horsepower. We need some one-upmanship in this class. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Interesting. Only things I don't like is the IFS, EB engine, and an asking price that is probably way too high for what it is. The 2.3 is my only concern. No one has been really impressed with it's performance in the Ranger. I'm sure it's capable of more power, but are they gonna make that happen? It needs 350hp to really blow the competition away. This ain't Japan in the '90s, with a stupid gentleman's agreement on horsepower. We need some one-upmanship in this class. Ford has a 2.3 EcoBoost performance kit (320hp/355ft/lbs) for the Ranger, hopefully available for the Bronco https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a32170394/ford-performance-ranger-tune/ |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 8:35:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After reviewing the leaks, honestly I don't think this is going to be much of a threat to Wrangler sales. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If the Bronco is what it appears to be, the aftermarket is going to start cranking shit out. Especially overland style stuff. Any new product runs into the aftermarket issue, I'm sure they'll be fine. After reviewing the leaks, honestly I don't think this is going to be much of a threat to Wrangler sales. It’s a brand new vehicle in a segment that rarely has brand new vehicles. It will put a dent in Wrangler sales. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 8:54:46 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I cut my teeth off roading in a 77 Bronco with a three speed auto, never considered a manual an advantage or even desirable off road. Hope they have the cooling figured out. My Tacoma is the first auto 4x4 I have owned/wheeled. It is so much easier wheeling an auto. Not as fun in some situations but way more point and shoot. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 8:59:08 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It needs a SFA straight up full stop. I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand I cant disagree with this. Toyota never tried to cultivate the image of the "offroad lifestyle" like jeep does. No, most people aren't going to take their expensive Wrangler and drag it through the Rubicon, fordyce, or take it on the black trails at Windrock.....but the image that they portray is that you CAN do that if you really want to. Most of the soccer moms and Jeep Bros want to portray the image of being hardcore offroaders, they dont want to actually do it. Then there's guys like me who aren't having fun if there's not broken parts and body damage involved I'm interested to see how the bronco does, maybe they will make that IFS more capable that your run of the mill setup, but I have my doubts. I look for it to be more akin to what is available on the chevy colorado offroad trim packages, better than typical but still not suitable for hardcore wheeling. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 9:43:51 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never said it would be. In the "overland market" you see more diversity but mainly Jeeps & Toyota's. That market is where Ford can compete and actually get customers. They will get their own buyers there and the Bronco appears competitive for those needs so it could get sales from former Wrangler or 4R owners. It won't be a huge percentage of Wrangler or 4R sales though, as people buy those "because Wrangler" and "because Toyota." That's not a threat, it's just a win for consumers, and it's likely a win for Ford. The removable top might get some non-hardcore Jeep owners also. Yeah that is what I see. I see this fitting in the market as a budget Jeep unless it has some yet to be revealed killer feature. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 9:44:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a brand new vehicle in a segment that rarely has brand new vehicles. It will put a dent in Wrangler sales. It will also bring business to Jeep as people start comparing this to a Wrangler. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 9:49:02 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I cant disagree with this. Toyota never tried to cultivate the image of the "offroad lifestyle" like jeep does. No, most people aren't going to take their expensive Wrangler and drag it through the Rubicon, fordyce, or take it on the black trails at Windrock.....but the image that they portray is that you CAN do that if you really want to. Most of the soccer moms and Jeep Bros want to portray the image of being hardcore offroaders, they dont want to actually do it. Then there's guys like me who aren't having fun if there's not broken parts and body damage involved I'm interested to see how the bronco does, maybe they will make that IFS more capable that your run of the mill setup, but I have my doubts. I look for it to be more akin to what is available on the chevy colorado offroad trim packages, better than typical but still not suitable for hardcore wheeling. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It needs a SFA straight up full stop. I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand I cant disagree with this. Toyota never tried to cultivate the image of the "offroad lifestyle" like jeep does. No, most people aren't going to take their expensive Wrangler and drag it through the Rubicon, fordyce, or take it on the black trails at Windrock.....but the image that they portray is that you CAN do that if you really want to. Most of the soccer moms and Jeep Bros want to portray the image of being hardcore offroaders, they dont want to actually do it. Then there's guys like me who aren't having fun if there's not broken parts and body damage involved I'm interested to see how the bronco does, maybe they will make that IFS more capable that your run of the mill setup, but I have my doubts. I look for it to be more akin to what is available on the chevy colorado offroad trim packages, better than typical but still not suitable for hardcore wheeling. That's exactly why it has an IFS. Ford is going down the same road as the new Defender. With the correct marketing, it will have plenty of bona fides for the majority of buyers. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 9:50:08 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It will also bring business to Jeep as people start comparing this to a Wrangler. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s a brand new vehicle in a segment that rarely has brand new vehicles. It will put a dent in Wrangler sales. It will also bring business to Jeep as people start comparing this to a Wrangler. So....I've never wanted a Wrangler before, but now that the Bronco is out, I want one? |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 10:14:26 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe. Kind of odd that they would get video of a test mule while they are out driving (while getting a thumbs up from the driver) and exclusive leaks in the same week. Ford being “pissed” and banning them from the debut is just cover so they don’t catch shit for favoritism from other outlets. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't think Ford would be stomping on TFL's nuts if this wasn't a legit, unwanted leak. Most of the "leaks" aren't, but I think this one was. As far as that bit of non-news, I read somewhere earlier this week that statement was made in some kind of internal call. Maybe. Kind of odd that they would get video of a test mule while they are out driving (while getting a thumbs up from the driver) and exclusive leaks in the same week. Ford being “pissed” and banning them from the debut is just cover so they don’t catch shit for favoritism from other outlets. I assume that manufacturers want the test mules to be seen more often than not. The close up photos TFL got leak some pretty big details that I don't think Ford would willingly release to a random YouTube channel before anyone else. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 11:11:14 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I assume that manufacturers want the test mules to be seen more often than not. The close up photos TFL got leak some pretty big details that I don't think Ford would willingly release to a random YouTube channel before anyone else. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think Ford would be stomping on TFL's nuts if this wasn't a legit, unwanted leak. Most of the "leaks" aren't, but I think this one was. As far as that bit of non-news, I read somewhere earlier this week that statement was made in some kind of internal call. Maybe. Kind of odd that they would get video of a test mule while they are out driving (while getting a thumbs up from the driver) and exclusive leaks in the same week. Ford being “pissed” and banning them from the debut is just cover so they don’t catch shit for favoritism from other outlets. I assume that manufacturers want the test mules to be seen more often than not. The close up photos TFL got leak some pretty big details that I don't think Ford would willingly release to a random YouTube channel before anyone else. They do want the mules to be seen and make sure they are seen by the outlets (time and place, etc.). Outside of someone breaking into one of the mules while it was parked, the pics came from Ford. They aren't of the full interior, they are small little Easter eggs to keep the chatter/buzz going in the dead time before the debut. It's a win/win for both parties. TFL gets exclusive content and Ford gets to keep the hype train stoked. The value of being at the debut for TFL is minimal as everyone is releasing the same info at the same time. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 11:43:27 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think IFS is the problem with the FJ or 4Runner. The problem IMO is lack of power. A turbo diesel would give it the low end torque it desperately needs off road. It's 2020 and Toyota is selling a 4Runner with an almost 20 year old motor in it. There are production 4 cylinder engines that are putting out similar numbers. It's inexcusable especially when a TRD or TRD Pro is almost 50K. That is what Toyota is missing here. Right now their only competition is the Wrangler. They are able to steal market share away from the Wrangler because the Wrangler isn't as reliable, its loud inside, hot in the summer, cold in the winter and I haven't seen a Wrangler yet that didn't leak is some form or another within a few years of ownership. In contrast the 4Runner is reliable, comfortable and still capable. If Ford can make the Bronco the best of both of these worlds Toyota and Jeep are in trouble if they don't start innovating right now. Especially if it proves popular because I wouldn't be surprised if GM didn't get in on this in some fashion as well. A modern K5 would be I somewhat agree with the motor comment. I don't give a shit about it being 20yo design as I'll take a time tested and proven design over a latest/greatest techo bomb anyday and I don't give a rats ass about gas mileage or the ozone layer, I just want power and reliability. The biggest mistake they made with the Gen5 T4R IMO was dropping the V8 option. If I could get a new T4R-OR with the V8 then I one would have one sitting in my garage right now. As for this new Bronco... overall I'm glad to see they didn't just make another karenmobile with a classic name (Chevy Blazer cough, cough). As for some of the comments about IFS, etc. I get it but its just not realistic in today's market. I admit, I don't like the engine they choice as I'm old school and if it was up to me, this thing would come with the 5.0 coyote motor (or at least be an option) but I won't hold my breath on that. I would also love to see a stripped down version without all the electronics but again, I know that's not going to happen. I use to be a huge Ford fan but have pretty much sworn off all of the big 3. That said, this is one of the few new offerings from the big 3 that has even tempted me in a very long time. The wife and I having been looking for a new SUV for daily duties and maybe getting an older TJ for weekend fun but this could serve both purposes but I still wouldn't buy a first year model regardless of what the final version end up being? I'll let you all Beta test it  |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 3:46:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ford has a 2.3 EcoBoost performance kit (320hp/355ft/lbs) for the Ranger, hopefully available for the Bronco https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a32170394/ford-performance-ranger-tune/ That's actually pretty cool! |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 4:20:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think IFS is the problem with the FJ or 4Runner. The problem IMO is lack of power. A turbo diesel would give it the low end torque it desperately needs off road. It's 2020 and Toyota is selling a 4Runner with an almost 20 year old motor in it. There are production 4 cylinder engines that are putting out similar numbers. It's inexcusable especially when a TRD or TRD Pro is almost 50K. That is what Toyota is missing here. Right now their only competition is the Wrangler. They are able to steal market share away from the Wrangler because the Wrangler isn't as reliable, its loud inside, hot in the summer, cold in the winter and I haven't seen a Wrangler yet that didn't leak is some form or another within a few years of ownership. In contrast the 4Runner is reliable, comfortable and still capable. If Ford can make the Bronco the best of both of these worlds Toyota and Jeep are in trouble if they don't start innovating right now. Especially if it proves popular because I wouldn't be surprised if GM didn't get in on this in some fashion as well. A modern K5 would be https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/73787/IMG_0653_JPG-1458213.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It needs a SFA straight up full stop. I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand I don't think IFS is the problem with the FJ or 4Runner. The problem IMO is lack of power. A turbo diesel would give it the low end torque it desperately needs off road. It's 2020 and Toyota is selling a 4Runner with an almost 20 year old motor in it. There are production 4 cylinder engines that are putting out similar numbers. It's inexcusable especially when a TRD or TRD Pro is almost 50K. That is what Toyota is missing here. Right now their only competition is the Wrangler. They are able to steal market share away from the Wrangler because the Wrangler isn't as reliable, its loud inside, hot in the summer, cold in the winter and I haven't seen a Wrangler yet that didn't leak is some form or another within a few years of ownership. In contrast the 4Runner is reliable, comfortable and still capable. If Ford can make the Bronco the best of both of these worlds Toyota and Jeep are in trouble if they don't start innovating right now. Especially if it proves popular because I wouldn't be surprised if GM didn't get in on this in some fashion as well. A modern K5 would be https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/73787/IMG_0653_JPG-1458213.JPG I'm not sure I agree with either of you. There are reasons most of the industry has bailed on SFAs. They're the right choice for some people but, they're in the minority. Outside of durability under really heavy vehicles, SFAs only really shine in a certain subset of off road driving that few people do. Most people aren't buying $40k+ trucks and bashing them on rocks. SFAs can also be a disadvantage for things like desert running and driving on trails and rough roads/paths at speeds faster than a crawl. Power has pretty much always taken a back seat to gearing on 4x4s, and I'd argue there are reasons for that. For starters, most of them aren't really designed or built for speed, and they get sketchy when driven quickly. Beyond that, making more power usually means a choice between a high strung smaller engine that runs hotter or moving to a bigger, heavier engine. For some vehicles, neither of those are really optimal. A 4.0L V6 that's lazily humming out 270 hp and 278 lb-ft isn't winning any races, but it's a good choice for longevity and for people who will work it hard. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 4:25:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryI don't understand why they still use camo when we've already seen the vehicle.  |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 4:54:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So....I've never wanted a Wrangler before, but now that the Bronco is out, I want one? Well of you never wanted a Wrangler why would you want a Bronco? |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 5:00:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Need a sales rep in AK? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The company has more than enough write offs. There are two big P66 players up there. Nice people. That really know their shit. I’d have to buy a place in WA first. But our next step is south East. Like SC or southern Va. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 5:01:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well of you never wanted a Wrangler why would you want a Bronco? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So....I've never wanted a Wrangler before, but now that the Bronco is out, I want one? Well of you never wanted a Wrangler why would you want a Bronco? It's the new hotness. Everybody has a Jeep and they all look the same. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 5:31:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's exactly why it has an IFS. Ford is going down the same road as the new Defender. With the correct marketing, it will have plenty of bona fides for the majority of buyers. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It needs a SFA straight up full stop. I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand I cant disagree with this. Toyota never tried to cultivate the image of the "offroad lifestyle" like jeep does. No, most people aren't going to take their expensive Wrangler and drag it through the Rubicon, fordyce, or take it on the black trails at Windrock.....but the image that they portray is that you CAN do that if you really want to. Most of the soccer moms and Jeep Bros want to portray the image of being hardcore offroaders, they dont want to actually do it. Then there's guys like me who aren't having fun if there's not broken parts and body damage involved I'm interested to see how the bronco does, maybe they will make that IFS more capable that your run of the mill setup, but I have my doubts. I look for it to be more akin to what is available on the chevy colorado offroad trim packages, better than typical but still not suitable for hardcore wheeling. That's exactly why it has an IFS. Ford is going down the same road as the new Defender. With the correct marketing, it will have plenty of bona fides for the majority of buyers. The only thing a SFA excels at is rock crawling. Since 99.9% of purchasers aren't going to take their new vehicle out and bash it up on rocks for no reason IFS makes more sense. Properly set up its superior in almost all applications. For the type of offroading I do which is mainly cutting through muddy fields and going up logging roads IFS is fine. Nobody has ever said the Raptor of H1 Hummer lacked off road prowess for example. As for durability I had two Rams with the Dana 44 in front. I laugh in front axle seal replacement. I got to where I could do them in an hour since I did them so frequently. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 5:34:37 PM EDT
[#29]
I may trade my 4Runner in on one if these...
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Posted: 6/12/2020 7:45:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He is correct, the lever is a mechanical lever sticking out of the transfer case and into the cab, however, there is an ADD in the front axle that disengages the passenger side axle shaft when in 2wd so that the front differential and drive shaft don't spin, to help MPG. Basically the same thing as manual locking hubs, but driven by an electric motor. They are generally very reliable, but as I alluded to above, if you have a CEL, it won't engage. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That is not how its explained on T4R. One more thing you have mixed in there--the CDL, or center differential lock. Even on the TRD/Trail models (and the Land Cruiser, LX570 and GX460), the CDL is a button-activated electrically actuated motor/servo on the T-case that locks the case and splits torque 50/50 front and rear. The SR5 just has one more rod/servo in the electrical shift motor to engage low range, where the TRD uses a lever, but they both still have the electric shift motor for the CDL. I'm a 4Runner fan boi, but this has my interest. I'm more into the car-camping scene than the 'bash your truck on rocks' scene, so I'm perfectly fine with IFS. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 7:57:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a brand new vehicle in a segment that rarely has brand new vehicles. It will put a dent in Wrangler sales. Ford is the first to attempt it since the Nissan Xterra I believe. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 8:03:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the Bronco is what it appears to be, the aftermarket is going to start cranking shit out. Especially overland style stuff. Any new product runs into the aftermarket issue, I'm sure they'll be fine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Jeep has a tremendous aftermarket. It is going to take a while before the Bronco will threaten the Jeep market share. If the Bronco is what it appears to be, the aftermarket is going to start cranking shit out. Especially overland style stuff. Any new product runs into the aftermarket issue, I'm sure they'll be fine. No doubt, but expect it to take a few years to really mature. Some of the more well regarded of the aftermarket jeep companies have only now begun to round off their product lines for the JL. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 8:13:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's the new hotness. Everybody has a Jeep and they all look the same. So I could buy a Ford that looks like a Jeep. 
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Posted: 6/12/2020 8:17:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No doubt, but expect it to take a few years to really mature. Some of the more well regarded of the aftermarket jeep companies have only now begun to round off their product lines for the JL. Thats fine. Lots of owners will hold off on serious mods due to warranty anyways. Minor stuff that won't matter warranty wise will probably be some of the first stuff available. |
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Posted: 6/12/2020 8:28:24 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One more thing you have mixed in there--the CDL, or center differential lock. Even on the TRD/Trail models (and the Land Cruiser, LX570 and GX460), the CDL is a button-activated electrically actuated motor/servo on the T-case that locks the case and splits torque 50/50 front and rear. The SR5 just has one more rod/servo in the electrical shift motor to engage low range, where the TRD uses a lever, but they both still have the electric shift motor for the CDL. I'm a 4Runner fan boi, but this has my interest. I'm more into the car-camping scene than the 'bash your truck on rocks' scene, so I'm perfectly fine with IFS. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That is not how its explained on T4R. One more thing you have mixed in there--the CDL, or center differential lock. Even on the TRD/Trail models (and the Land Cruiser, LX570 and GX460), the CDL is a button-activated electrically actuated motor/servo on the T-case that locks the case and splits torque 50/50 front and rear. The SR5 just has one more rod/servo in the electrical shift motor to engage low range, where the TRD uses a lever, but they both still have the electric shift motor for the CDL. I'm a 4Runner fan boi, but this has my interest. I'm more into the car-camping scene than the 'bash your truck on rocks' scene, so I'm perfectly fine with IFS. The only 4Runner trim with a diff lock is the Limited. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 12:22:36 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure I agree with either of you. There are reasons most of the industry has bailed on SFAs. They're the right choice for some people but, they're in the minority. Outside of durability under really heavy vehicles, SFAs only really shine in a certain subset of off road driving that few people do. Most people aren't buying $40k+ trucks and bashing them on rocks. SFAs can also be a disadvantage for things like desert running and driving on trails and rough roads/paths at speeds faster than a crawl. Power has pretty much always taken a back seat to gearing on 4x4s, and I'd argue there are reasons for that. For starters, most of them aren't really designed or built for speed, and they get sketchy when driven quickly. Beyond that, making more power usually means a choice between a high strung smaller engine that runs hotter or moving to a bigger, heavier engine. For some vehicles, neither of those are really optimal. A 4.0L V6 that's lazily humming out 270 hp and 278 lb-ft isn't winning any races, but it's a good choice for longevity and for people who will work it hard. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It needs a SFA straight up full stop. I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand I don't think IFS is the problem with the FJ or 4Runner. The problem IMO is lack of power. A turbo diesel would give it the low end torque it desperately needs off road. It's 2020 and Toyota is selling a 4Runner with an almost 20 year old motor in it. There are production 4 cylinder engines that are putting out similar numbers. It's inexcusable especially when a TRD or TRD Pro is almost 50K. That is what Toyota is missing here. Right now their only competition is the Wrangler. They are able to steal market share away from the Wrangler because the Wrangler isn't as reliable, its loud inside, hot in the summer, cold in the winter and I haven't seen a Wrangler yet that didn't leak is some form or another within a few years of ownership. In contrast the 4Runner is reliable, comfortable and still capable. If Ford can make the Bronco the best of both of these worlds Toyota and Jeep are in trouble if they don't start innovating right now. Especially if it proves popular because I wouldn't be surprised if GM didn't get in on this in some fashion as well. A modern K5 would be https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/73787/IMG_0653_JPG-1458213.JPG I'm not sure I agree with either of you. There are reasons most of the industry has bailed on SFAs. They're the right choice for some people but, they're in the minority. Outside of durability under really heavy vehicles, SFAs only really shine in a certain subset of off road driving that few people do. Most people aren't buying $40k+ trucks and bashing them on rocks. SFAs can also be a disadvantage for things like desert running and driving on trails and rough roads/paths at speeds faster than a crawl. Power has pretty much always taken a back seat to gearing on 4x4s, and I'd argue there are reasons for that. For starters, most of them aren't really designed or built for speed, and they get sketchy when driven quickly. Beyond that, making more power usually means a choice between a high strung smaller engine that runs hotter or moving to a bigger, heavier engine. For some vehicles, neither of those are really optimal. A 4.0L V6 that's lazily humming out 270 hp and 278 lb-ft isn't winning any races, but it's a good choice for longevity and for people who will work it hard. Yeah, and only a subset of people take their hellcat up to 160mph. The way I see it, the only types of offroading most people actually care about are overlanding on medium trails and crawling over difficult rocks and obstacles. Fast desert racing can be done in 2WD. Ford needs a SFA on at least one trim level of Bronco or it will die like the FJ  . It will be viewed as another "amost made it." I guarantee if the limited trail team addition FJC came out with a SFA it would be here today. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 12:50:28 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Yeah, and only a subset of people take their hellcat up to 160mph. The way I see it, the only types of offroading most people actually care about are overlanding on medium trails and crawling over difficult rocks and obstacles. Fast desert racing can be done in 2WD. Ford needs a SFA on at least one trim level of Bronco or it will die like the FJ . It will be viewed as another "amost made it." I guarantee if the limited trail team addition FJC came out with a SFA it would be here today. I don't think think the lack of SFA will kill it. I do think it would do just fine with one and it is what I would prefer but that means nothing in the grand scheme. With as much money as people throw at their rigs nowadays it won't be long before someone swaps a $10,000 Dynatrac 60 or the like into it. I've seen so many builds with half again what the rig cost dumped into them before they have 1000 miles. Casey Currie just had a JT built on 40's with all kinds of stuff and the rig had like 8 miles. Must be nice to have Magpul and the like paying for your toys. I am actually coming around to the JT even though I hated them at first but they sure come out nice. The short bed is the real deal killer for me. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 12:54:18 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only 4Runner trim with a diff lock is the Limited. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That is not how its explained on T4R. One more thing you have mixed in there--the CDL, or center differential lock. Even on the TRD/Trail models (and the Land Cruiser, LX570 and GX460), the CDL is a button-activated electrically actuated motor/servo on the T-case that locks the case and splits torque 50/50 front and rear. The SR5 just has one more rod/servo in the electrical shift motor to engage low range, where the TRD uses a lever, but they both still have the electric shift motor for the CDL. I'm a 4Runner fan boi, but this has my interest. I'm more into the car-camping scene than the 'bash your truck on rocks' scene, so I'm perfectly fine with IFS. The only 4Runner trim with a diff lock is the Limited. CDL is only necessary on full time 4wd vehicles. Landcruisers primarily, from the 80 series to the 200. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 12:58:24 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: CDL is only necessary on full time 4wd vehicles. Landcruisers primarily, from the 80 series to the 200. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That is not how its explained on T4R. One more thing you have mixed in there--the CDL, or center differential lock. Even on the TRD/Trail models (and the Land Cruiser, LX570 and GX460), the CDL is a button-activated electrically actuated motor/servo on the T-case that locks the case and splits torque 50/50 front and rear. The SR5 just has one more rod/servo in the electrical shift motor to engage low range, where the TRD uses a lever, but they both still have the electric shift motor for the CDL. I'm a 4Runner fan boi, but this has my interest. I'm more into the car-camping scene than the 'bash your truck on rocks' scene, so I'm perfectly fine with IFS. The only 4Runner trim with a diff lock is the Limited. CDL is only necessary on full time 4wd vehicles. Landcruisers primarily, from the 80 series to the 200. Had a couple Protege's with that. Dad made crystal clear that I was not to engage it on pavement. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:04:02 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, and only a subset of people take their hellcat up to 160mph. The way I see it, the only types of offroading most people actually care about are overlanding on medium trails and crawling over difficult rocks and obstacles. Fast desert racing can be done in 2WD. Ford needs a SFA on at least one trim level of Bronco or it will die like the FJ . It will be viewed as another "amost made it." I guarantee if the limited trail team addition FJC came out with a SFA it would be here today. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It needs a SFA straight up full stop. I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand I don't think IFS is the problem with the FJ or 4Runner. The problem IMO is lack of power. A turbo diesel would give it the low end torque it desperately needs off road. It's 2020 and Toyota is selling a 4Runner with an almost 20 year old motor in it. There are production 4 cylinder engines that are putting out similar numbers. It's inexcusable especially when a TRD or TRD Pro is almost 50K. That is what Toyota is missing here. Right now their only competition is the Wrangler. They are able to steal market share away from the Wrangler because the Wrangler isn't as reliable, its loud inside, hot in the summer, cold in the winter and I haven't seen a Wrangler yet that didn't leak is some form or another within a few years of ownership. In contrast the 4Runner is reliable, comfortable and still capable. If Ford can make the Bronco the best of both of these worlds Toyota and Jeep are in trouble if they don't start innovating right now. Especially if it proves popular because I wouldn't be surprised if GM didn't get in on this in some fashion as well. A modern K5 would be https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/73787/IMG_0653_JPG-1458213.JPG I'm not sure I agree with either of you. There are reasons most of the industry has bailed on SFAs. They're the right choice for some people but, they're in the minority. Outside of durability under really heavy vehicles, SFAs only really shine in a certain subset of off road driving that few people do. Most people aren't buying $40k+ trucks and bashing them on rocks. SFAs can also be a disadvantage for things like desert running and driving on trails and rough roads/paths at speeds faster than a crawl. Power has pretty much always taken a back seat to gearing on 4x4s, and I'd argue there are reasons for that. For starters, most of them aren't really designed or built for speed, and they get sketchy when driven quickly. Beyond that, making more power usually means a choice between a high strung smaller engine that runs hotter or moving to a bigger, heavier engine. For some vehicles, neither of those are really optimal. A 4.0L V6 that's lazily humming out 270 hp and 278 lb-ft isn't winning any races, but it's a good choice for longevity and for people who will work it hard. Yeah, and only a subset of people take their hellcat up to 160mph. The way I see it, the only types of offroading most people actually care about are overlanding on medium trails and crawling over difficult rocks and obstacles. Fast desert racing can be done in 2WD. Ford needs a SFA on at least one trim level of Bronco or it will die like the FJ . It will be viewed as another "amost made it." I guarantee if the limited trail team addition FJC came out with a SFA it would be here today.  The FJ had some pretty major drawbacks, and the lack of SFA wasn't even close to being on the radar for a meaningful number of potential buyers. It was expensive, it was relatively impractical, the engine had a shockingly bad combination of poor efficiency and low power, and the design didn't age well at all. Also, the visibility was surprisingly bad. And then there was that whole Great Recession thing with $4 per gallon gas. And the whole time Toyota built the FJ, they also built the 4Runner which was more or less the same vehicle in a much more practical layout. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:08:45 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FJ had some pretty major drawbacks, and the lack of SFA wasn't even close to being on the radar for a meaningful number of potential buyers. It was expensive, it was relatively impractical, the engine had a shockingly bad combination of poor efficiency and low power, and the design didn't age well at all. Also, the visibility was surprisingly bad. And then there was that whole Great Recession thing with $4 per gallon gas. And the whole time Toyota built the FJ, they also built the 4Runner which was more or less the same vehicle in a much more practical layout. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It needs a SFA straight up full stop. I am an FJ guy, and as I get deeper into wheeling, I become more disillusioned with the IFS and Toyota as a brand. People can love on the series 80s all day, but it's a big ass Subaru outback on a truck frame. The FJ had the looks and the initial hype, but couldn't deliver off the showroom floor. It takes transferable M16 money to make the FJ do what a rubicon can do with just a 4" lift and some 35s. Had Toyota made even one trim level with Dana 44s or Toyota equivalent, it would have been lauded by land cruiser and jeep types as a true jeep rival (not jeep killer though). The base model didn't need one. Lots of 4 and 6 banger mustangs/camaros/challengers have been sold because their car had one really fast model in the stable. I will probably SAS my FJ at some point. It's just a crying fucking shame they didn't understand I don't think IFS is the problem with the FJ or 4Runner. The problem IMO is lack of power. A turbo diesel would give it the low end torque it desperately needs off road. It's 2020 and Toyota is selling a 4Runner with an almost 20 year old motor in it. There are production 4 cylinder engines that are putting out similar numbers. It's inexcusable especially when a TRD or TRD Pro is almost 50K. That is what Toyota is missing here. Right now their only competition is the Wrangler. They are able to steal market share away from the Wrangler because the Wrangler isn't as reliable, its loud inside, hot in the summer, cold in the winter and I haven't seen a Wrangler yet that didn't leak is some form or another within a few years of ownership. In contrast the 4Runner is reliable, comfortable and still capable. If Ford can make the Bronco the best of both of these worlds Toyota and Jeep are in trouble if they don't start innovating right now. Especially if it proves popular because I wouldn't be surprised if GM didn't get in on this in some fashion as well. A modern K5 would be https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/73787/IMG_0653_JPG-1458213.JPG I'm not sure I agree with either of you. There are reasons most of the industry has bailed on SFAs. They're the right choice for some people but, they're in the minority. Outside of durability under really heavy vehicles, SFAs only really shine in a certain subset of off road driving that few people do. Most people aren't buying $40k+ trucks and bashing them on rocks. SFAs can also be a disadvantage for things like desert running and driving on trails and rough roads/paths at speeds faster than a crawl. Power has pretty much always taken a back seat to gearing on 4x4s, and I'd argue there are reasons for that. For starters, most of them aren't really designed or built for speed, and they get sketchy when driven quickly. Beyond that, making more power usually means a choice between a high strung smaller engine that runs hotter or moving to a bigger, heavier engine. For some vehicles, neither of those are really optimal. A 4.0L V6 that's lazily humming out 270 hp and 278 lb-ft isn't winning any races, but it's a good choice for longevity and for people who will work it hard. Yeah, and only a subset of people take their hellcat up to 160mph. The way I see it, the only types of offroading most people actually care about are overlanding on medium trails and crawling over difficult rocks and obstacles. Fast desert racing can be done in 2WD. Ford needs a SFA on at least one trim level of Bronco or it will die like the FJ . It will be viewed as another "amost made it." I guarantee if the limited trail team addition FJC came out with a SFA it would be here today. The FJ had some pretty major drawbacks, and the lack of SFA wasn't even close to being on the radar for a meaningful number of potential buyers. It was expensive, it was relatively impractical, the engine had a shockingly bad combination of poor efficiency and low power, and the design didn't age well at all. Also, the visibility was surprisingly bad. And then there was that whole Great Recession thing with $4 per gallon gas. And the whole time Toyota built the FJ, they also built the 4Runner which was more or less the same vehicle in a much more practical layout. None of which would have mattered much if it could articulate better over rocks. Seriously, it would have been a whole different demographic looking at it. The power in the FJ is already sufficient enough that it will break CV shafts under articulation. I have broken one and carry a spare any time I head to any serious trails. That's not getting any better with a slap-on supercharger or a high torque diesel. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:31:05 AM EDT
[#42]
The same FJ on the same obstacle before and after a solid axle swap. Note the teeter-tottering in the first video and conspicuous absence in the second.
Before  FJ Cruiser Tackles Camp Road at Land Cruiser Mountain Park |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:31:37 AM EDT
[#43]
After
 camp road sas FJ cruiser |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:38:14 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: None of which would have mattered much if it could articulate better over rocks. Seriously, it would have been a whole different demographic looking at it. The power in the FJ is already sufficient enough that it will break CV shafts under articulation. I have broken one and carry a spare any time I head to any serious trails. That's not getting any better with a slap-on supercharger or a high torque diesel. Ya know what I think... I think it was just available at the wrong point in time. The FJC (and the H3) from a design standpoint is an ideal competitor in the "overland market" which wasn't as popular at that time. Obviously the design would need some modern refreshing but otherwise it (they) fit the needs. Yes SFA would get a certain demographics attention, but what makes them willing to switch from the Jeep's they already have? Toyota reliability? Maybe, but I doubt it. It certainly wouldn't be cheaper, so price isn't the answer. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:43:29 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ya know what I think... I think it was just available at the wrong point in time. The FJC (and the H3) from a design standpoint is an ideal competitor in the "overland market" which wasn't as popular at that time. Obviously the design would need some modern refreshing but otherwise it (they) fit the needs. Yes SFA would get a certain demographics attention, but what makes them willing to switch from the Jeep's they already have? Toyota reliability? Maybe, but I doubt it. It certainly wouldn't be cheaper, so price isn't the answer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: None of which would have mattered much if it could articulate better over rocks. Seriously, it would have been a whole different demographic looking at it. The power in the FJ is already sufficient enough that it will break CV shafts under articulation. I have broken one and carry a spare any time I head to any serious trails. That's not getting any better with a slap-on supercharger or a high torque diesel. Ya know what I think... I think it was just available at the wrong point in time. The FJC (and the H3) from a design standpoint is an ideal competitor in the "overland market" which wasn't as popular at that time. Obviously the design would need some modern refreshing but otherwise it (they) fit the needs. Yes SFA would get a certain demographics attention, but what makes them willing to switch from the Jeep's they already have? Toyota reliability? Maybe, but I doubt it. It certainly wouldn't be cheaper, so price isn't the answer. The used market bears your argument out. There are low milage FJs still in the $30k range. They are more desired now than when they were new! I don't think Toyota had to make EVERY FJ SFA. Just a TRD or Trail Teams addition. Jeep people are going to buy Jeeps, but I think a worthy competitor would have at least gotten an approving nod from Jeepers vs the LOLs they get now. That feeling of a rivalry would have had a lot more serious off-roaders buying them. The Bronco can do this now if they try the same strategy. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:49:38 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: CDL is only necessary on full time 4wd vehicles. Landcruisers primarily, from the 80 series to the 200. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That is not how its explained on T4R. One more thing you have mixed in there--the CDL, or center differential lock. Even on the TRD/Trail models (and the Land Cruiser, LX570 and GX460), the CDL is a button-activated electrically actuated motor/servo on the T-case that locks the case and splits torque 50/50 front and rear. The SR5 just has one more rod/servo in the electrical shift motor to engage low range, where the TRD uses a lever, but they both still have the electric shift motor for the CDL. I'm a 4Runner fan boi, but this has my interest. I'm more into the car-camping scene than the 'bash your truck on rocks' scene, so I'm perfectly fine with IFS. The only 4Runner trim with a diff lock is the Limited. CDL is only necessary on full time 4wd vehicles. Landcruisers primarily, from the 80 series to the 200. I don’t think I explained it very well, my bad. All fourth generation four-wheel-drive 4Runners (whether full time or part time 4x4) as well as 100 and 200 series land cruisers, and the GX 460 all have a center differential lock. It’s a little button on the dash with a picture of the drivetrain with an X over the center differential. It has nothing to do with being full or part time four wheel drive, and it’s not the rear differential. When you push the button, a servo drives a steel rod in the transfer case locking the transfer case. I was just pointing out that The 4th gen SR5 just has two rods driven by electrical motors—one for the CDL, and one for low range. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:51:34 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The used market bears your argument out. There are low milage FJs still in the $30k range. They are more desired now than when they were new! I don't think Toyota had to make EVERY FJ SFA. Just a TRD or Trail Teams addition. Jeep people are going to buy Jeeps, but I think a worthy competitor would have at least gotten an approving nod from Jeepers vs the LOLs they get now. That feeling of a rivalry would have had a lot more serious off-roaders buying them. The Bronco can do this now if they try the same strategy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: None of which would have mattered much if it could articulate better over rocks. Seriously, it would have been a whole different demographic looking at it. The power in the FJ is already sufficient enough that it will break CV shafts under articulation. I have broken one and carry a spare any time I head to any serious trails. That's not getting any better with a slap-on supercharger or a high torque diesel. Ya know what I think... I think it was just available at the wrong point in time. The FJC (and the H3) from a design standpoint is an ideal competitor in the "overland market" which wasn't as popular at that time. Obviously the design would need some modern refreshing but otherwise it (they) fit the needs. Yes SFA would get a certain demographics attention, but what makes them willing to switch from the Jeep's they already have? Toyota reliability? Maybe, but I doubt it. It certainly wouldn't be cheaper, so price isn't the answer. The used market bears your argument out. There are low milage FJs still in the $30k range. They are more desired now than when they were new! I don't think Toyota had to make EVERY FJ SFA. Just a TRD or Trail Teams addition. Jeep people are going to buy Jeeps, but I think a worthy competitor would have at least gotten an approving nod from Jeepers vs the LOLs they get now. That feeling of a rivalry would have had a lot more serious off-roaders buying them. The Bronco can do this now if they try the same strategy. The FJC was and is a failure because Toyota pussed out on making it an actual modern FJ40 analogue. With two doors, losing the stupid suicide rear doors, and a removable top, like an actual FJ, the stupid IFS would have been forgivable. Instead they made it a slightly shorter and imminently less practical 4runner with some stupid styling cues and an easy-break windshield. I have a built 80 series and so does my brother, his wife has the chick car FJC. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:52:19 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The used market bears your argument out. There are low milage FJs still in the $30k range. They are more desired now than when they were new! I don't think Toyota had to make EVERY FJ SFA. Just a TRD or Trail Teams addition. Jeep people are going to buy Jeeps, but I think a worthy competitor would have at least gotten an approving nod from Jeepers vs the LOLs they get now. That feeling of a rivalry would have had a lot more serious off-roaders buying them. The Bronco can do this now if they try the same strategy. From a consumer perspective I get it. Make a halo trim to fanboy. From a business perspective it doesn't make a ton of sense. If they can't get a significant market share with the halo trim then the R&D is wasteful. You'd most likely be relying on the halo trim to sell lesser trims like how the Mustang works out, but models like the Raptor or ZR2 kinda show that the halo trim doesn't necessarily have to be the biggest badass on the block and just be significantly more capable than average. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:54:04 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t think you guys are understanding what I’m saying. All fourth and fifth generation four-wheel-drive 4Runners (whether full time or part time 4x4) as well as 100 and 200 series land cruisers, and the GX 460 all have a center differential lock. It’s a little button on the dash with a picture of the drivetrain with an X over the center differential. It has nothing to do with being full or part time four wheel drive, and it’s not the rear differential. When you push the button, a servo drives a steel rod in the transfer case locking the transfer case. I was just pointing out that even the TRD model still has an electrical actuator (CDL) in the transfer case, as well as a lever for low range. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That is not how its explained on T4R. One more thing you have mixed in there--the CDL, or center differential lock. Even on the TRD/Trail models (and the Land Cruiser, LX570 and GX460), the CDL is a button-activated electrically actuated motor/servo on the T-case that locks the case and splits torque 50/50 front and rear. The SR5 just has one more rod/servo in the electrical shift motor to engage low range, where the TRD uses a lever, but they both still have the electric shift motor for the CDL. I'm a 4Runner fan boi, but this has my interest. I'm more into the car-camping scene than the 'bash your truck on rocks' scene, so I'm perfectly fine with IFS. The only 4Runner trim with a diff lock is the Limited. CDL is only necessary on full time 4wd vehicles. Landcruisers primarily, from the 80 series to the 200. I don’t think you guys are understanding what I’m saying. All fourth and fifth generation four-wheel-drive 4Runners (whether full time or part time 4x4) as well as 100 and 200 series land cruisers, and the GX 460 all have a center differential lock. It’s a little button on the dash with a picture of the drivetrain with an X over the center differential. It has nothing to do with being full or part time four wheel drive, and it’s not the rear differential. When you push the button, a servo drives a steel rod in the transfer case locking the transfer case. I was just pointing out that even the TRD model still has an electrical actuator (CDL) in the transfer case, as well as a lever for low range. I have 3 Landcruisers, 2 80s and a 100. I’m not the least bit confused as to what a CDL is or why it’s needed. On a part time 4wd vehicle it’s not, period. On a full time 4wd vehicle it locks the viscous coupler that allows differentiation between front and rear axle speeds on road. My built 80 series has front, center, and rear factory lockers, and they get used. I know exactly what they do and when to use them. |
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Posted: 6/13/2020 1:57:51 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FJC was and is a failure because Toyota pussed out on making it an actual modern FJ40 analogue. With two doors, losing the stupid suicide rear doors, and a removable top, like an actual FJ, the stupid IFS would have been forgivable. Instead they made it a slightly shorter and imminently less practical 4runner with some stupid styling cues and an easy-break windshield. I have a built 80 series and so does my brother, his wife has the chick car FJC. -The suicide doors don't bother me. It's actually kinda cool when you see the tube door versions. -The FJ40 was also pretty impractical from a utility perspective. Same as a 2-door jeep. -Stupid styling cues are subjective. A stock FJC is kinda mini cooper on a truck frame, but they look fantastic with 33s or bigger with a nice bumper, etc. -The windshield...breaks. But I love it from an aesthetic standpoint. -Girls love to mall-crawl Jeeps, too. They look as bad as the FJ with 31" tires and no lift. Kinda like a Model-T Ford. Edit: Your 80 doesn't have a removable top either. But I agree there. |
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