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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:14:53 PM EST
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If I remember correctly there are 8 guns in a battery . A fire mission is all eight. After spotter calls fire for effect. Facing modern defended positions on foot is insanity. How long have you been out? Most cannon arty battalions are 3x6 plus 1 ORF gun. Negative. 2x8, with each battery having 2 4 gun platoons, in IBCTs. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:17:18 PM EST
[#2]
Quoted:
Depends on the munition being used and the size of the artillery piece. A 105mm howitzer isn't going to put as much hurt on an area as a 155mm or 152mm howitzer.  Planning for 105 is 35 meter radius. Planning for M107 HE is 50 meter radius. All dumb howitzers can easily fire a sweep & zone in order to cover a larger area. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:19:06 PM EST
[#3]
Quoted:
Danger Close is administrative in nature, creeping adjustment is done and the FDC is to compute QE to .10 of a mil. Special Instructions: Use Gunner's Quadrant 
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:26:44 PM EST
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Danger Close is administrative in nature, creeping adjustment is done and the FDC is to compute QE to .10 of a mil. honest question: same gun, same round type, how much distance can each shot vary? For each type round, charge, range, and trajectory there is a probable error in range and a probable error in deflection...since my background is 105s, using an old TFT...a M119 firing a standard weight HE, M1, charge 6, low angle, at 7500 meters the PER is 16 and PED is 4. Well within the effects radius for that round. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:29:26 PM EST
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It really doesn't make much difference. It's not likely to be just one round, unless it's for registration or adjust. There's probably several dozen more right behind it, prox, burst, DPICM, delay, whatever. Or there could be a couple of hundred right behind it, like this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8 Then there's nothing you can do, no where to run. That is a whole lot of shut the fuck up right there..  All I see is glowing things floating off into the night sky, like those paper lanterns. For those of us who have never been in the military, what are we seeing? A world of hurt. Drag reduction module in the base of a M864 ICM round. It reduces suction drag in flight by filling the void behind the projo with gas similar to that produced by a tracer. So the vacuum is filled by basically smoke? For some reason I was always under the impression that they used something else. I'm not sure what I thought used though, maybe compressed C02 or something.... -K |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:32:11 PM EST
[#6]
Quoted: I would argue that we are hollowing out our artillery. The Army. The Marines are fine. I fear you are correct. -K |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:32:28 PM EST
[#7]
Quoted: So the vacuum is filled by basically smoke? For some reason I was always under the impression that they used something else. I'm not sure what I thought used though, maybe compressed C02 or something.... -K Not smoke, per se, but burning something to create a low pressure area and thus reduce the base drag. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:33:38 PM EST
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: We have to pray we don't ever go to war with a force that has ACTUAL conventional artillery superior to our own. Not in this century. I'm not so sure. US SP Field Artillery is among the most out dated and obsolete in the Western World. While Bush/Rummy share some of the blame, I think 0bama/Gates gets most of the credit for this. -K |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:36:23 PM EST
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: So the vacuum is filled by basically smoke? For some reason I was always under the impression that they used something else. I'm not sure what I thought used though, maybe compressed C02 or something.... -K Not smoke, per se, but burning something to create a low pressure area and thus reduce the base drag. I wonder what kind of hazard this creates with regard to fires or a vehicle taking incoming rounds that penetrate the armor. Granted, the explosives in the projectile poses enough of a problem in that regard, but they may be less sensitive and are basically surrounded by steel. -K |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:38:56 PM EST
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So the vacuum is filled by basically smoke? For some reason I was always under the impression that they used something else. I'm not sure what I thought used though, maybe compressed C02 or something.... -K Not smoke, per se, but burning something to create a low pressure area and thus reduce the base drag. I wonder what kind of hazard this creates with regard to fires or a vehicle taking incoming rounds that penetrate the armor. Granted, the explosives in the projectile poses enough of a problem in that regard, but they may be less sensitive and are basically surrounded by steel. 155 is a separate loading munition. You have powder all over the place. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:40:48 PM EST
[#11]
Quoted:
It really doesn't make much difference. It's not likely to be just one round, unless it's for registration or adjust. There's probably several dozen more right behind it, prox, burst, DPICM, delay, whatever. Or there could be a couple of hundred right behind it, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8
Then there's nothing you can do, no where to run. And many martyrs were made on that night! The power inside one of those shells can turn a house into a crater, I can't even fathom the destruction visited on the dumb bastards that were on the receiving end of that barrage. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:41:43 PM EST
[#12]
Quoted: I'm not so sure. US SP Field Artillery is among the most out dated and obsolete in the Western World. While Bush/Rummy share some of the blame, I think 0bama/Gates gets most of the credit for this. How do you figure? Obama didn't cancel the Crusader... |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:42:26 PM EST
[#13]
Quoted:
100m kill radius on the 155 IIRC But Wiki says The kill zone is approximately a radius of 50 meters and casualty radius is 100 meters.
So I'm probably wrong
Um, yeah. But also bear in mind that an HE shell is made of a fairly thick solid steel casing which, upon detonation, blasts into fragments ranging from a few grams to several pounds in weight. The heavier pieces can and will travel several hundred meters, and it would highly suck to be the unlucky bastard that gets hit by one of those. Thankfully, I was always the shipper; never the receiver. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 8:44:41 PM EST
[#14]
I have seen controlled dets of 155s and a MATV hit by one.......I would say 100m away minimum....50 to 100 youre probably going to get messed up pretty bad
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Posted: 6/8/2011 9:11:26 PM EST
[#15]
Quoted:
Anything that relies on frag is a crap shoot.......had a hand grenade go off 5 feet from me, not a scratch, last deployment we routinely hit buildings with Excal rounds and didn't hurt a single person inside. On the other hand....I know a guy that knows a guy that was killed by frag from a VBIED that was many hundreds of meters away. Blast is a pretty uniform way to kill people, but you need much more bang to get the same radius I'm still confused by some of the frag stuff I saw. I had a mortar land where (it felt like) I could have caught it... not a scratch. I've also had an HEPD 40mm round fired very short that I was within 10 or so feet that did nothing to me but be loud. (Soldier in question later stated he was aiming directly at where he intended to shoot with the M68 instead of trying to lob the grenade.) But one of the other joes was hit by frags from a grenade when he was at least 40m from the explosion. The craziest part was that there were other Soldiers directly between him and the explosion who were unscathed. (Minor wound) |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 9:34:58 PM EST
[#16]
Quoted:
I'm still confused by some of the frag stuff I saw. I had a mortar land where (it felt like) I could have caught it... not a scratch. I've also had an HEPD 40mm round fired very short that I was within 10 or so feet that did nothing to me but be loud. (Soldier in question later stated he was aiming directly at where he intended to shoot with the M68 instead of trying to lob the grenade.) But one of the other joes was hit by frags from a grenade when he was at least 40m from the explosion. The craziest part was that there were other Soldiers directly between him and the explosion who were unscathed. (Minor wound) Often ,not always, but often the projectile may go into the ground a little, this will force frgments up and over causing a bullseye like fragmentation pattern with no or few fragments landing in the 2nd ring. This is why the US often uses proximity fuses and has since WWII so that the round goes off 40 feet up not in the dirt where the fragments are stopped by soil. In Iraq in 03 and the 40mm grenades impact fuses are used. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 10:03:16 PM EST
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Mythbusters did a cool thing about blast radius. Assuming the blast is at ground level, it takes very little cover to reduce the kill radius to a casualty. Even as little as a wooden table. It blocks/reduces the pressure wave. I liked that episode, although they didn't factor in shrapnel in their experiment. One of the drop zones at Fort Chaffee used to be an artillery range, I think it was Chickasaw DZ but may have been Arrowhead (it's been 20 years). There's a small hill in the middle of it called Potato Hill....it used to be a big hill until it was pounded with thousands of shells through the 1940's and 1950's. I hated jumping on that DZ, it was littered with large rusty chunks of steel that hurt like hell when you rolled onto one doing one of your "dynamite PLF's" in the middle of the night. Anyway, I picked up a piece of steel about the size of my fist, weighs about 10 pounds and still has rifling on it. I was told it was part of a 155mm round. I still have it, use it as a paperweight. I most definitely would not want to get in the way of this hunk of metal, it has a world of hurt written all over it (and put a world of hurt on one of my kidneys when I landed on this little piece of s@*#). Can anybody positively identify what this is? Ft Chaffee was used in 1940's and 50's, then shut down till the 509th was stationed there in late 80's. Sorry of the pictures are small, trying to do this on my cell phone. 
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Posted: 6/8/2011 10:03:42 PM EST
[#18]
We had some 81s guys in Yuma when a 155 shot WAY off target. Like 2 klicks.
Round landed approx 17 meters from them and I believe only 1 Marine was wounded although others took some shrapnel to their vests and brain buckets. IIRC the battery C.O., X.O. OpsO/FDC and Gunny all relieved. They were doing a hip shoot and an aiming stake got knocked part way over. Someone pointed it out to the Gunny and he told them to shoot anyway. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 10:18:26 PM EST
[#19]
Quoted:
Just seen too many Hollywood war movies. Say a 155mm lands next to you. How far would you have to be to be unscathed and just require a make-up touch-up. These must be the same war movies with 800 round magazines and every round hits it's target, M1911's and Berettas that put a round between a man's eyes at 100 meters, a single hand grenade wipes out an entire building, your average ground pounding infantryman can jump into a helicopter and fly areal combat, and every soldier gets to deliver a 2 minute soliloquy about duty, honor, and Mary Jane back home before he dies...."I done good Sarge, right? Ooh, it hurts...tell my girl I done my best...." |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 10:23:20 PM EST
[#20]
danger close is like 600 meters for 155, IIRC. So the fragmentation range is pretty far.
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Posted: 6/8/2011 10:28:56 PM EST
[#21]
google JFIRES manual for REDS (risk estimated distance) I keep a laminated copy in my pocket.
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Posted: 6/8/2011 10:37:13 PM EST
[#22]
Quoted: Stalin called artillery The God of War. It's why Arfcoms obsession with individual weapons isn't really necessary. No doubt. Artillery has been the most important ground asset for quite some time and will continue to stay that way when fighting a near-peer enemy. |
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Posted: 6/8/2011 11:12:48 PM EST
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm not so sure. US SP Field Artillery is among the most out dated and obsolete in the Western World. While Bush/Rummy share some of the blame, I think 0bama/Gates gets most of the credit for this. How do you figure? Obama didn't cancel the Crusader... Correct, but when Bush/Rummy canceled the Crusader they at least did so knowing that the FCS was in development, and that the NLOS-C component would be ready relatively soon. The NLOS-C was one of the first programs that 0bama/Gates killed, and they did so with essentially nothing in the works to replace the Paladin. Now they are planning on yet another upgrade to the Paladin.  -K |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 12:44:40 AM EST
[#24]
entirely depends on luck, I've seen guys 100m away get hit with shrapnel but witnessed a mortar round land less than 10 feet away and it literally knocked him out of his boot but all he had was abrasions, concussion, and ringing ears...indirect fire is a funny thing
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Posted: 6/9/2011 1:33:28 AM EST
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Mythbusters did a cool thing about blast radius. Assuming the blast is at ground level, it takes very little cover to reduce the kill radius to a casualty. Even as little as a wooden table. It blocks/reduces the pressure wave. I liked that episode, although they didn't factor in shrapnel in their experiment. One of the drop zones at Fort Chaffee used to be an artillery range, I think it was Chickasaw DZ but may have been Arrowhead (it's been 20 years). There's a small hill in the middle of it called Potato Hill....it used to be a big hill until it was pounded with thousands of shells through the 1940's and 1950's. I hated jumping on that DZ, it was littered with large rusty chunks of steel that hurt like hell when you rolled onto one doing one of your "dynamite PLF's" in the middle of the night. Anyway, I picked up a piece of steel about the size of my fist, weighs about 10 pounds and still has rifling on it. I was told it was part of a 155mm round. I still have it, use it as a paperweight. I most definitely would not want to get in the way of this hunk of metal, it has a world of hurt written all over it (and put a world of hurt on one of my kidneys when I landed on this little piece of s@*#). Can anybody positively identify what this is? Ft Chaffee was used in 1940's and 50's, then shut down till the 509th was stationed there in late 80's. Sorry of the pictures are small, trying to do this on my cell phone. http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq176/Snowbound-n-NH/1704ff68.jpg http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq176/Snowbound-n-NH/d686cc8c.jpg Fragments from the base of a round, probably 155mm the serrations on the top one are where the rotating band is set into the round. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 1:48:00 AM EST
[#26]
Quoted: Wonder what the kill radius is on a 16" shell from a naval gun? Or some old WWI rail gun stuff that was something like 400mm? Casualty radius for 16"50 HC Mk 13 was approx 850 meters. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 1:51:01 AM EST
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
A great video of the power of the 11th Marines! It really doesn't make much difference. It's not likely to be just one round, unless it's for registration or adjust. There's probably several dozen more right behind it, prox, burst, DPICM, delay, whatever. Or there could be a couple of hundred right behind it, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8
Then there's nothing you can do, no where to run. 
They did it on the 'Canal and the did it in Iraq. Best damn video of a fire mission I've ever seen. 
From the video it sounds like they were using submunitions-dispensing projectiles. Anti-armour mission perhaps? |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 1:54:16 AM EST
[#28]
Quoted:
Modern programmable proximity fusing is a BITCH. Surviving a modern artillery barrage is terribly unlikely. We have to pray we don't ever go to war with a force that has ACTUAL conventional artillery superior to our own. Individual weapons and tactical vests don't mean shit, artillery determines the outcome. From what I've heard, the Georgians used their artillery with devastating effect upon the Russians. Apparently the branch performed the best during the war. I've read that it took a while for the Russians to break through initially because they kept getting hit with heavy fire from Georgian artillery. The country would have fallen a couple of days sooner, otherwise. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 1:58:12 AM EST
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So the vacuum is filled by basically smoke? For some reason I was always under the impression that they used something else. I'm not sure what I thought used though, maybe compressed C02 or something.... -K Not smoke, per se, but burning something to create a low pressure area and thus reduce the base drag. I assume this is what base bleed refers to. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 1:59:59 AM EST
[#30]
Quoted: danger close is like 600 meters for 155, IIRC. So the fragmentation range is pretty far. Danger close is just FDC's warning to the spotter and the supported element that the rounds are going to impact in an area at the edge of the FDC's "safety" fan, nothing to do with effective casualty radius of the round. FDC can bring rounds in closer by refining the calculations down with only a marginal effect to safety. 5 inch NGFS has a danger close of 750 meters and it's a smaller round than 155mm, really all danger close is telling you is that any drop shorts are going to be close something I worried about more with NGFS as they fall along the axis of the gun target line in a generally vertical sheaf where as arty tends to have a more horizontal orientation to the gun target line. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 2:12:31 AM EST
[#31]
The Mission of the Artillery is to give some class to what would otherwise be merely a vulgar brawl.
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Posted: 6/9/2011 2:15:20 AM EST
[#32]
Quoted:
The Mission of the Artillery is to give some class to what would otherwise be merely a vulgar brawl. I've seen a cartoon with that line that had a bunch of vulgar looking guys going at it crazily with a snobby guy in a spiffy uniform gently placing a flame on the fuze of a cannon point right at them. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 2:24:21 AM EST
[#33]
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Posted: 6/9/2011 2:42:21 AM EST
[#34]
The one I'm thinking of was funnier...from an American or British paper circa the 1850s or 1860s. But that's the gist of it. I've always been fascinated by artillery, whether on ships or land, especially the major calibre pieces.
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Posted: 6/9/2011 4:25:13 AM EST
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A great video of the power of the 11th Marines! It really doesn't make much difference. It's not likely to be just one round, unless it's for registration or adjust. There's probably several dozen more right behind it, prox, burst, DPICM, delay, whatever. Or there could be a couple of hundred right behind it, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8
Then there's nothing you can do, no where to run.
They did it on the 'Canal and the did it in Iraq. Best damn video of a fire mission I've ever seen.
From the video it sounds like they were using submunitions-dispensing projectiles. Anti-armour mission perhaps? It was a Repulblican Guard assembly area from what I understand. Each one of those shells has 72 or 88 submunitions, depending on the type. I don't know how many guns are in that regiment or if it was reinforced and I don't know how many rounds per gun. I'd say the target was probably several square kilometers. So if the regiment had 48 guns, and each fired 10 rounds, that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000+ submunitions bouncing around an area the size of a neighborhood. They probably fired more than 10 rounds so I figure I'm being conservative. I doubt there was a single living creature left. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 4:39:19 AM EST
[#36]
At the time 70 of the 72 tubes were firing.
We were in about 2x2 square KM area so it was quite impressive. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 4:48:58 AM EST
[#37]
That was awesome to watch, you could hear the whole thing go down and understand how helpless you would be.
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Posted: 6/9/2011 4:56:32 AM EST
[#38]
Holy crap. The first round dropped right on the rocket launcher. I wonder how far away the gun was? That's amazing.
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Posted: 6/9/2011 5:12:15 AM EST
[#39]
Quoted:
At the time 70 of the 72 tubes were firing. We were in about 2x2 square KM area so it was quite impressive. Do you know how many rounds in effect? |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 5:17:16 AM EST
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It really doesn't make much difference. It's not likely to be just one round, unless it's for registration or adjust. There's probably several dozen more right behind it, prox, burst, DPICM, delay, whatever. Or there could be a couple of hundred right behind it, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYR-H4Hgoz8
Then there's nothing you can do, no where to run. That is a whole lot of shut the fuck up right there.. All I see is glowing things floating off into the night sky, like those paper lanterns. For those of us who have never been in the military, what are we seeing? RAP rounds are a possibility (Rocket Assisted Projectile). I'm not arty, so I can't say for sure. Those are M864 Base-Bleed DPICM 
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Posted: 6/9/2011 5:24:22 AM EST
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If I remember correctly there are 8 guns in a battery . A fire mission is all eight. After spotter calls fire for effect. Facing modern defended positions on foot is insanity. How long have you been out? Most cannon arty battalions are 3x6 plus 1 ORF gun. Negative. 2x8, with each battery having 2 4 gun platoons, in IBCTs. That is true. HBCT/SBCT artillery battalions are 3x6 +1 |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 5:52:58 AM EST
[#42]
Quoted:
Wow, so suffice it to say if the germans had current US artillery and fire control, D-Day would have been a flop. Iwo Jima same thing. How do massed troops making an assault survive this stuff at all? I've seen it from a distance in person, and always wondered how anyone could have succesfully stormed Iwo Jima when huge guns had LOS on the beaches. Damn good suppressing fire? Reading books about the landings on Iwo Jima and so forth, it was written that the soft valcanic ash on those beaches helped to "muffle" the artillary significantly. As for French beaches, the sand would probably help, not so much as the ash in the pacific. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 6:02:13 AM EST
[#43]
5 meters
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Posted: 6/9/2011 6:05:18 AM EST
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If I remember correctly there are 8 guns in a battery . A fire mission is all eight. After spotter calls fire for effect. Facing modern defended positions on foot is insanity. How long have you been out? Most cannon arty battalions are 3x6 plus 1 ORF gun. Negative. 2x8, with each battery having 2 4 gun platoons, in IBCTs. That is true. HBCT/SBCT artillery battalions are 3x6 +1 HBCT is 2x8 as well. SBCT is 3x6 |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 6:59:20 AM EST
[#45]
Wow I still have that print somewhere. Dad was USMC Artillery 59-79 IIRC. He was Reserves for most of that time. We still have a couple of spent shell casings at my mom's place I don't recall if they were 105 or 155 but big fuckers. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 7:39:21 AM EST
[#46]
Quoted: Wow I still have that print somewhere. Dad was USMC Artillery 59-79 IIRC. He was Reserves for most of that time. We still have a couple of spent shell casings at my mom's place I don't recall if they were 105 or 155 but big fuckers. They'd be 105, 155 is a seperate loaded ammo projo then powder bags. 105 is a semi-fixed round with a base charge and 6 powder increments contained in its canister. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 7:50:10 AM EST
[#47]
i think there are about 3 kilos of the good stuff in a 105mm he round.
for comparison, there are around 6kilos in an average AT mine. |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 7:57:51 AM EST
[#48]
Looks like farther then 100m, if you look at the bottom left corner of the screen when it hits on the overview, fragments are hitting out of view.
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Posted: 6/9/2011 10:26:06 AM EST
[#49]
Big frags can fly a LONG way. As demonstrated:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24083832/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/cat-dies-when-misfired-artillery-shell-hits-home/ |
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Posted: 6/9/2011 10:46:49 AM EST
[#50]
Quoted:
I was a Forward Observer in Vietnam for a rifle company in the Central Highlands. I have fired 105mm to within 25 meters of my position. 155mm to within 75 meters of my position, 8 inch to within 100 meters. I have also put in air strikes with 500 pound bombs and Zuni rockets so close the fragments were cutting down large trees right over us. I don't like doing this but some times you just have to do what you have to do. Wow talk about danger close. |
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