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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:12:16 AM EDT
[#1]
The tag didnt work and I'm only just now seeing this.
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:13:03 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exactly. MOA is easier for a lot of people because it is very close to 1” at 100 yds, 2” at 200 yds etc. With MIL the math is just so much more elegant and simple. I have and use both but lean to MIL. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't see how one is superior or inferior. They're just different scales. Exactly. MOA is easier for a lot of people because it is very close to 1” at 100 yds, 2” at 200 yds etc. With MIL the math is just so much more elegant and simple. I have and use both but lean to MIL. Like metric/imperial I can and do use both but wish one stopped existing. Don't care which. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:13:48 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mils are metric Metric is gay and European Therfore mils are gay and European Thats actually not correct. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:14:41 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MILS, MOA, who cares? Dialing is for homos https://cdn.horusvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/TREMOR3-Poster.png The Tremor 3 reticle has too much bullshit going on and is dumb. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:15:34 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember the good old days of MOA dials and MIL dot reticles... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/17973/math_jpg-2732592.JPG I'm still living in those days. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:21:20 AM EDT
[#6]
I've run both at distance. What I have found is that I prefer the degree of movement per click, with MIL. scopes. This probably sounds random, buy MOA scopes are 1/4 MOA per click, which is actually too fine 1/4 MOA and a meaningless adjustment, or too coarse at (1/2 MOA), which can overshoot.
With MIL, 1 click is 1/10 MIL which is about 1/3 MOA. I actually quite like 1/3 MOA per click, which is small enough to be fine, and large enough to matter. I just like it better. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:35:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've run both at distance. When I run distance, I'm usually a sweaty mess and out of breath. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:33:19 AM EDT
[#8]
2pi = 6.2831 radians = 360 degree
or 6283 mRad = 360 degrees or 1 degree = 17.45 mRad 1 degree = 60 MOA 1/60 degree = 1MOA = 0.29 mRad or 1mRad = 3.44 MOA However, NATO being NATO decided there were 6400 mils to cover 360 degrees (for convenience e.g. compass) so in this instance 1 degree = 17.77 mils 1/60 degree = 0.2961 or 1 NATO mil = 3.377 MOA From a distance perspective 1mil at 100m ~10cm (9.99cm), 0.1mil at 100m ~ 1cm and 1MOA at 100yds ~ 1 inch (1.047) |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:37:01 AM EDT
[#9]
No one should have mismatched knobs to reticle at this point. If the reticle and knobs match then no real math is involved.
Also, no none is counting clicks; you read the numbers on the knobs (unless you are shooting in the dark). Good luck using the mil relation formula for precise shots much past 600 yards. Even a small error in target size results in a distance error usually larger than the ballistics of the cartridge can make up for. Laser range finders are a must for real precision at longer distances. Like Lazyengineer said, mil units result in less knob turning. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:37:39 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ummm.... you know thats not a BDC reticle right? Its MILs Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: MILS, MOA, who cares? Dialing is for homos https://cdn.horusvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/TREMOR3-Poster.png Ummm.... you know thats not a BDC reticle right? Its MILs  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:49:38 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 3/4/2023 7:25:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or that it isnt really the American optic cause you can get turrets in actual 1/4 inch adjustments. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wait until y’all find out that you can use mils and yards together. Wait until they find out MOA isn’t an inch. Or that it isnt really the American optic cause you can get turrets in actual 1/4 inch adjustments. YUP. US Optics and probably others (for the right $$$) will install turrets in IPHY (inch per hundred yards) i'm sure all the fudds and boomers know this already but IPHY and MOA are NOT the same MOA and MIL are both just units of measurement, why not use the one that is more common and allows for better communication with others |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 9:32:53 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mils on a non KAC rifle. Gay and Gay. Meaning not gay? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Mils are metric Metric is gay and European Therfore mils are gay and European Mils on a non KAC rifle. Gay and Gay. Meaning not gay? No that's double gay |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 10:36:26 AM EDT
[#14]
How did I miss this? lol
"I was raised thinking in inches, so I use MOA, not that metric European crap!" J/K - I'm a milradian Chad. Also, Tremor reticles are ghey. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:05:13 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No that's double gay KAC people are funny. Spending extra money to flex on the poors, but your guns aren't better than Geissele. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:09:33 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: YUP. US Optics and probably others (for the right $$$) will install turrets in IPHY (inch per hundred yards) i'm sure all the fudds and boomers know this already but IPHY and MOA are NOT the same MOA and MIL are both just units of measurement, why not use the one that is more common and allows for better communication with others There are actually reasons to use moa over mils in certain shooting disciplines. OP has literally never done any of that stuff. I have. It's kinda boring, tbh. For the type of shooting OP does, a simple BDC with a barrel and load that matches the subtensions within about a minute out to 600 yards at SATP conditions is probably the best solution. ETA: For the type of shooting I do competitively, mils is king. It is the most intuitive. It's the easiest to communicate with between shooter and spotter. It is precise enough. Moa is dumb. OP has literally watched me and a bunch of other people absolutely shred a course of fire with mils that every boomer trying to use minutes either took too long or just couldn't figure it out at all, including a SOTIC qualified 18B. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:13:54 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are actually reasons to use moa over mils in certain shooting disciplines. OP has literally never done any of that stuff. I have. It's kinda boring, tbh. For the type of shooting OP does, a simple BDC with a barrel and load that matches the subtensions within about a minute out to 600 yards at SATP conditions is probably the best solution. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: YUP. US Optics and probably others (for the right $$$) will install turrets in IPHY (inch per hundred yards) i'm sure all the fudds and boomers know this already but IPHY and MOA are NOT the same MOA and MIL are both just units of measurement, why not use the one that is more common and allows for better communication with others There are actually reasons to use moa over mils in certain shooting disciplines. OP has literally never done any of that stuff. I have. It's kinda boring, tbh. For the type of shooting OP does, a simple BDC with a barrel and load that matches the subtensions within about a minute out to 600 yards at SATP conditions is probably the best solution. If you shoot F Class or Benchrest or something else along those lines where the majority uses moa then speak the same language as them. In PRS the majority is mil |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:14:44 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you shoot F Class or Benchrest or something else along those lines where the majority uses moa then speak the same language as them. In PRS the majority is mil Yeah, like I said. OP has literally never done any of that stuff. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:17:30 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are actually reasons to use moa over mils in certain shooting disciplines. OP has literally never done any of that stuff. I have. It's kinda boring, tbh. For the type of shooting OP does, a simple BDC with a barrel and load that matches the subtensions within about a minute out to 600 yards at SATP conditions is probably the best solution. ETA: For the type of shooting I do competitively, mils is king. It is the most intuitive. It's the easiest to communicate with between shooter and spotter. It is precise enough. Moa is dumb. OP has literally watched me and a bunch of other people absolutely shred a course of fire with mils that every boomer trying to use minutes either took too long or just couldn't figure it out at all, including a SOTIC qualified 18B. Yeah, Sniperbros usually have their asses handed to them at their first few matches, just like everyone else. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:22:48 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those that use Metric, and those that have put a man on the moon. Yoou mean in that heavy German inspired Rocket ? |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:27:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Saying mils is better for competition is like saying a building is stronger because the drawings are in metric dimensions. He who reads the wind better wins. The particular units used don’t matter.
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:33:38 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MOA scopes with 1/4-MOA clicks adjust 0.26175 inches per click at 100-yards. MIL scopes with 1/10-MIL clicks adjust 0.36 inches per click at 100-yards. So MOA scopes offer finer adjustment and thus, higher accuracy. It's science  ...and this is why I bought a Element MOA for my air rifle. The finer adjustment |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:34:02 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 2pi = 6.2831 radians = 360 degree or 6283 mRad = 360 degrees or 1 degree = 17.45 mRad 1 degree = 60 MOA 1/60 degree = 1MOA = 0.29 mRad or 1mRad = 3.44 MOA However, NATO being NATO decided there were 6400 mils to cover 360 degrees (for convenience e.g. compass) so in this instance 1 degree = 17.77 mils 1/60 degree = 0.2961 or 1 NATO mil = 3.377 MOA From a distance perspective 1mil at 100m ~10cm (9.99cm), 0.1mil at 100m ~ 1cm and 1MOA at 100yds ~ 1 inch (1.047) Too much math. Radian being sweep about the arc of a circle that is equal to tbe length of the radius. 3600 inches in 100 yards. Mil is short for "1/1000". 1/1000 of 3600 inches is 3.6 inches. So easy to think of. And no I am not converting radians to degrees. As for MOA. That is just fucking learn how to tangent/trig... |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:36:28 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: KAC people are funny. Spending extra money to flex on the poors, but your guns aren't better than Geissele. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No that's double gay KAC people are funny. Spending extra money to flex on the poors, but your guns aren't better than Geissele. Mod2 Gas E3 bolt URX4 Advantage KAC |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:40:36 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Saying mils is better for competition is like saying a building is stronger because the drawings are in metric dimensions. He who reads the wind better wins. The particular units used don’t matter. Not saying that one or the other is better as they are both just units of measurement But, another way to look at it through the lenses of the analogy you used would be to have the blue prints drawn using the same units that the tape measures and all the other tools and measuring equipment will be in that the majority of the workers will be using on the jobsite. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 11:43:38 AM EDT
[#26]
Out of 3 scopes, only my fanciest one is in mils. Use whatever you like.
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:03:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mod2 Gas E3 bolt URX4 Advantage KAC -Geissele has proprietary engineering improvements to the gas system too. -Gimmick, doesn't make a difference. -Geissele has their own rails too. Both work. Doesnt make much difference besides rails not being easily user changeable. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:06:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Saying mils is better for competition is like saying a building is stronger because the drawings are in metric dimensions. He who reads the wind better wins. The particular units used don’t matter. Mils are easier and faster to work with. This is a big difference maker when speed counts, especially under stress and fatigue. You are welcome to come to Cola Warrior Keystone and prove me wrong. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:07:33 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mils are easier and faster to work with. This is a big difference maker when speed counts, especially under stress and fatigue. You are welcome to come to Cola Warrior Keystone and prove me wrong. Is 6.5 Creed cheating at keystone? |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:13:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is 6.5 Creed cheating at keystone? No. You can bring whatever you want, because everyone still has to run up the worst hill I've ever had to try running on, and everyone has to shoot the first rifle stage, which would be an absolute nightmare with a large frame set up for PRS. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:15:27 PM EDT
[#31]
MOA. But I'm not an operator. So there's that.
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:17:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: -Geissele has proprietary engineering improvements to the gas system too. -Gimmick, doesn't make a difference. -Geissele has their own rails too. Both work. Doesnt make much difference besides rails not being easily user changeable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Mod2 Gas E3 bolt URX4 Advantage KAC -Geissele has proprietary engineering improvements to the gas system too. -Gimmick, doesn't make a difference. -Geissele has their own rails too. Both work. Doesnt make much difference besides rails not being easily user changeable. Geissele 3 port will be really cool |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:24:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, Sniperbros usually have their asses handed to them at their first few matches, just like everyone else. I've seent it. I know you've seen some of my posts about my journey over the last 3 years and gave me some very good advice that helped me a lot. To describe the experience as humbling is a massive understatement. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:28:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Geissele 3 port will be really cool Even with the incremental changes already present in the super duty rifles, it is already accomplishing the same thing as the KAC. The 3 port is HNL. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:31:18 PM EDT
[#35]
But a 300lb basement dwelling neckbeard said metric is for losers
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:36:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But a 300lb basement dwelling neckbeard said metric is for losers I am only 290 pounds |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 12:47:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: MILS, MOA, who cares? Dialing is for homos https://cdn.horusvision.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/TREMOR3-Poster.png Ummm.... you know thats not a BDC reticle right? Its MILs What is confusing you about this? |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:10:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is confusing you about this? The part about it being mils or the part about it being confusing? Tremors are way too busy. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:14:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The part about it being mils or the part about it being confusing? Tremors are way too busy. 100% agree. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:15:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah, the good old days. Where your finest elevation adjustment in a L&S M3 Ultra was 1 moa and windage was .5 moa. (IIRCC) Zero was 200m with a wind call. Dope was gathered every 100m and scope mechanical accuracy didn’t matter because there were no ballistic computers. M24’s were king and some sniper schools still had you use the iron sights to shoot out to 600m Camp Perry style with a bicep cuff sling and a shooting glove. No sand socks allowed. I miss it. Not the equipment. But being 23 again. When the wars were young and fun. And so was I. I’m still rocking the 1 MOA elevation and .5 MOA windage . My only scope is a Mk4 3.5-10 |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:24:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But a 300lb basement dwelling neckbeard said metric is for losers I actually like SI units better for some things, SAE units for others. The thing is, radians and degrees are both angular measurements that come from trigonometry. Which length units they are applied to is irrelevant. Radians still works with SAE units. One milliradian at 1000 inches is still one inch. 1000 yards is still 36 inches. 1000 miles is still one mile. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:44:55 PM EDT
[#42]
I think people arguing one way or the other should post their rifles... for science
 I'll start  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 1:55:03 PM EDT
[#43]
As a long time Highpower/ Midrange shooter I'm just more used to using MOA .
Using mil scope I just consider 1/10 mil click to be 1/3 moa & 3 for full moa for wind calls. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 2:03:48 PM EDT
[#44]
Mil/mil
 Cleared Cola NW with it. Mil/mil 
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Posted: 3/4/2023 2:09:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Moa is better for f class and bench shooting mils are better for prs and steel because you are just trying to hit a piece of steel not the same bullet hole.
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Posted: 3/4/2023 2:13:34 PM EDT
[#46]
Kentucky windage for the win.
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Posted: 3/4/2023 2:13:34 PM EDT
[#47]
Spotter: “You’re about 7 inches high and 2.5 inches left at 500 yards”.
Mil users: “Cool. Can you hand me my calculator?” MOA users: “Hit.” But really Mils is just relearning. I’m just stubborn and when things are called in inches it’s easier for me to not do any mathing. I really don’t see an issue with either. |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 2:14:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Two kinds of nations on this Earth. Those that use Metric, and those that have put a man on the moon.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 2:16:43 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Spotter: “You’re about 7 inches high and 2.5 inches left at 500 yards”. Mil users: “Cool. Can you hand me my calculator?” MOA users: “Hit.” Lmao, and how does the spotter know its 7 inches x 2.5 inches off? Any measurement the spotter is making is either just a guess based off the size of the target, in which case the shooter can guess the offset in the opposite direction and send rounds... Or... the spotter is using a reticle, and can give the correction in mils/moa... |
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Posted: 3/4/2023 2:20:58 PM EDT
[#50]
  Welp, here toy go. My two main match rifles... I'm not digging out the others. @BMSMB |
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