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Posted: 10/2/2019 10:19:53 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If there were serious consequences to the negative behaviors associated with drug use, I doubt the rise would be as great as you think it would be. After an initial uptick, you'd see it drop back down. You're trying to sound all reasonable, but your argument is just the same "Freedom is scary!" busybody line anti-gunners push all the time. If your society doesn't punish drug users who hurt others, don't blame the drugs for others getting hurt, blame your society for tolerating it. 
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Posted: 10/2/2019 10:22:49 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah just like with heroin
https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/heroin/images/heroin-graph_1185px.jpg |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 10:25:59 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah just like with heroin
https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/heroin/images/heroin-graph_1185px.jpg It's mostly poor, young, white males. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 10:43:54 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where on that timeline did they legalize heroin? Quote HistoryQuoted: Where on that timeline did they legalize heroin? If there were serious consequences to the negative behaviors associated with drug use, I doubt the rise would be as great as you think it would be.
After an initial uptick, you'd see it drop back down. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 10:44:14 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What concentrations were the salts at and what were the freebases at? Trying to learn more, I found a chart that shows that the blood levels of nicotine are much higher from conventional cigarettes compared to vaping (besides this benzoic acid salt method). Do you think vapers are taking in a lot more particle matter (ie bigger hits) to make up for the lower amount of nicotine that gets to the bloodstream? Or are they just settling for reduced nicotine blood levels (or maybe a little of both)? https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1267/5363/files/juulgraph_grande.jpg?v=1514396395 https://www.ruthlessvapor.com/blogs/ruthless-e-liquid/nicotine-salt-vs-freebase-why-nicotine-salt-is-the-new-craze Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: In my experience, the people who have been vaping the longest, are those who were in the exact same boat as him, though. They are older people who were lifelong smokers, and they quit smoking and went to vaping. These were the early adopters who got into the game when ecigs were almost exclusively used as a smoking replacement. As opposed to nowadays, where it's become a "thing" for teens to do and for those simply wanting to jump on the bandwagon for recreational purposes. So something doesn't jive, IMO. I have been vaping for 6 or 7 years now. Smoked traditional cigs from age 16 or so, until then (so about 29/30ish yrs old). I have always felt better than when I smoked cigs. Never had shortness of breath or any other issues. The only time I had an issue, is when I tried nic salts last year, which is another form of nicotine. It made me cough, so I just stopped using it and went back to regular freebase nicotine, and haven't had a problem since. Never tried THC juices, so I can't comment on that area. There have to be other factors at play here. There's just too much inconsistency. Whether it's simply differing reactions with different people, or the fact that there are countless companies making ejuice and ejuice ingredients these days, making it hard to narrow it down for reliable testing, a combination of those, or something else entirely. I dunno. https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1267/5363/files/juulgraph_grande.jpg?v=1514396395 https://www.ruthlessvapor.com/blogs/ruthless-e-liquid/nicotine-salt-vs-freebase-why-nicotine-salt-is-the-new-craze I regularly use 6mg/mL freebase nic in a rebuildable tank system at medium power. That's pretty average, too. That's the type of setup I've been using for the majority of my vaping experience. For comparison, one traditional cigarette contains, on average, 12mg of nicotine. But nicotine is absorbed differently depending on what form its in. Nic salts are absorbed quicker in your body and has a longer lasting effect than freebase nic. You generally take much smaller hits with high mg nic salts than you do freebase nic, yet still get a bigger, faster "nic buzz". That's why nic salts are so popular. In theory, you can take a few quick pulls and be satisfied for awhile. So that's less juice consumption (less $), and less time you need to actually be taking hits to satisfy nicotine cravings. With my 6mg freebase setup, if I step out to get my nic fix, I will be taking in quite a bit more vapor than if I were to use 50mg nic salts, to feel satisfied. I'm kinda surprised that tests show lower nicotine levels in your blood with ejuice than with traditional cigarettes. Given the difference in nicotine concentration. But like I said, nicotine is absorbed differently depending on what form it's in. So I suppose that accounts for it. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 10:47:33 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Posted to refute the theory that a harmful drug would result in a up and downtick. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Posted to refute the theory that a harmful drug would result in a up and downtick. If there were serious consequences to the negative behaviors associated with drug use, I doubt the rise would be as great as you think it would be.
After an initial uptick, you'd see it drop back down. You're trying to sound all reasonable, but your argument is just the same "Freedom is scary!" busybody line anti-gunners push all the time. If your society doesn't punish drug users who hurt others, don't blame the drugs for others getting hurt, blame your society for tolerating it. You argue like a Democrat. 
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Posted: 10/2/2019 10:54:28 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tocopheryl acetate is a fat soluble vitamin. Tocopheryl acetate is a salt, it is not an oil. It may be soluable in oil, but it is *not* oil. "Quit spouting bullshit." Right back at ya 
So what we have here is you thinking every bit of information counter to your opinion is a lie or bullshit. We will find out in time. What is your motivation, are you a nicotine vaper? Defending the product you like? Deflection again on the kabooms btw. The second amendment can be repealed, or at least neutered. Why not push for class action suit against these backwoods tainted thc vape carts? Arguing with those refusing to see the truth is beyond me, good day to you sir, And god help you. Edit clarification on salt |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 10:57:00 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Posted to refute the theory that a harmful drug would result in a up and downtick. The fact that heroin use is on the rise despite being illegal is actually counter to some of your arguments in this thread. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 11:03:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That comment was made in reference to legalization, the line of reasoning being that laws aren't what keep the vast majority of people from doing heroin, nor do they stop the people who would choose to partake. The fact that heroin use is on the rise despite being illegal is actually counter to some of your arguments in this thread. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 11:12:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think its because he switched completely over, no smoke products. IMO the smoke activates genes/pathways that protect (end result is p53 activation and apoptosis of damaged cells). I'm looking on google scholar for studies showing p53 activation with whole nicotine smoke and p53 activation with filtered smoke, but haven't been successful so far. I'm thinking the recent surge is because people are putting down their cigarettes completely in favor of vape. I've shown with marijuana how the partial smoke profile does not trigger p53. Just have to find it with nicotine. If I do, I think I've solved it. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 11:14:00 AM EDT
[#11]
Here I am feeding the troll again. Promise no more, no matter what bullshit he spouts. I'll let someone else take up the torch.
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Posted: 10/2/2019 11:44:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That comment was made in reference to legalization, the line of reasoning being that laws aren't what keep the vast majority of people from doing heroin, nor do they stop the people who would choose to partake. The fact that heroin use is on the rise despite being illegal is actually counter to some of your arguments in this thread. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 12:16:30 PM EDT
[#13]
If only we had other countries with legalized drugs to look to and see what happens.......not that even real facts will stop OP and his histrionic rantings
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Posted: 10/2/2019 12:34:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just so I'm sure, you're saying nicotine dependence/addiction is comparable to rock climbing and the other things I listed? One of the reasons for living is to get enjoyment from activities we do. Our behavior is affected by our anticipated enjoyment. Like a more complex version of Pavlov's dog. When I sink a 3 pointer in someone's face, that action and result is coupled with a positive reinforcement. I'll seek to achieve that good feeling again by mimicing my shooting motion to drain another one. Drugs interfere with this. They provide positive reinforcement of our pleasure system for simply sucking in smoke. Or injecting heroin into ones veins. Meanwhile pleasure gained from doing our everyday things or special things that we get extra enjoyment from are diminished. Why go do X,Y,Z when I can just stand around smoking cigarettes, pot, heroin or whatever and get pleasure that way instead. This is addiction in a nutshell. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: All those things you list also alter a person's mind. One of the reasons for living is to get enjoyment from activities we do. Our behavior is affected by our anticipated enjoyment. Like a more complex version of Pavlov's dog. When I sink a 3 pointer in someone's face, that action and result is coupled with a positive reinforcement. I'll seek to achieve that good feeling again by mimicing my shooting motion to drain another one. Drugs interfere with this. They provide positive reinforcement of our pleasure system for simply sucking in smoke. Or injecting heroin into ones veins. Meanwhile pleasure gained from doing our everyday things or special things that we get extra enjoyment from are diminished. Why go do X,Y,Z when I can just stand around smoking cigarettes, pot, heroin or whatever and get pleasure that way instead. This is addiction in a nutshell. The reason that opiates work at all is that they mimic chemicals that the body naturally releases when in pain or stressed. Those natural chemicals, called "endorphins", create very similar feelings in the body that the opiates do - just, instead of a needle full of heroin, you have to run 5 miles. Gambling, extreme sports, motor racing, amusement park rides - all can and sometimes do have an addictive component. Once again - it is none of your business how someone else gets pleasure, so long as it isn't breaking your leg or picking your pocket. It is not your place to compel in others behavior according to your precepts, nor to save people from themselves. Butt out. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 12:35:10 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, you're in the wrong thread
Go start a thread something like "Thall shall not touch our vape juice! Pro-vapers unite." I won't intrude |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 12:35:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I should let you know it sounds insensitive to diminish life by saying more people died doing X. What if an arfcommer got sick from this? Would you still make such a comment? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Wow. Only 85 more and it will match the number of people killed by trees falling on them. What if an arfcommer got sick from this? Would you still make such a comment? |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 12:37:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah just like with heroin
https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/heroin/images/heroin-graph_1185px.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If there were serious consequences to the negative behaviors associated with drug use, I doubt the rise would be as great as you think it would be. After an initial uptick, you'd see it drop back down. You're trying to sound all reasonable, but your argument is just the same "Freedom is scary!" busybody line anti-gunners push all the time. If your society doesn't punish drug users who hurt others, don't blame the drugs for others getting hurt, blame your society for tolerating it.
https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/heroin/images/heroin-graph_1185px.jpg |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 12:41:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If we legalized heroin, its use would be even higher. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: That comment was made in reference to legalization, the line of reasoning being that laws aren't what keep the vast majority of people from doing heroin, nor do they stop the people who would choose to partake. The fact that heroin use is on the rise despite being illegal is actually counter to some of your arguments in this thread. Your ability to control an adult ends at the outer layer of your skin. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 12:41:45 PM EDT
[#19]
With millions and millions of people vaping, aren't the statistical odds in favor of 15 of them dying of some type of breathing illness anyway?
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Posted: 10/2/2019 1:09:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seriously - you never heard of a "runner's high"? "Adrenaline junkie"? "Thrill seeker"? The reason that opiates work at all is that they mimic chemicals that the body naturally releases when in pain or stressed. Those natural chemicals, called "endorphins", create very similar feelings in the body that the opiates do - just, instead of a needle full of heroin, you have to run 5 miles. Gambling, extreme sports, motor racing, amusement park rides - all can and sometimes do have an addictive component. Once again - it is none of your business how someone else gets pleasure, so long as it isn't breaking your leg or picking your pocket. It is not your place to compel in others behavior according to your precepts, nor to save people from themselves. Butt out. Here's where my psych 223 instructor has ended up 15 years later. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/profiles/results/directory/profile/0656049/ryan-vandrey https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2123150930_Ryan_G_Vandrey I digress. Feeling compelled to engage in an enjoyful activity is not the same chemically as inhaling a huge amount of nicotine and elevating your blood levels significantly. The first is what gives us enjoyment in life and is responsible for our drive and motivation to complete behaviors that benefit us. The second is some fake high taken in exogenous form in order to hijack natural signal pathways and manipulate them for instant gratification. Not the same thing. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 1:17:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're talking to me like I'm 10, but I've taken a course on psychopharmacology, 200 level psych course (psych 223 at UVM if you're interested). I got an A. If you want to read up and bring yourself up to my knowledge level, go read Ryan Vandrey's work. He was my psych 223 instructor and he's done a ton of work on addiction, especially with marijuana and nicotine. I've taken several 000 and 100 level psych courses. I spend quite a bit of my free time reading medical journal articles. Here's where my psych 223 instructor has ended up 15 years later. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/profiles/results/directory/profile/0656049/ryan-vandrey https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2123150930_Ryan_G_Vandrey I digress. Feeling compelled to engage in an enjoyful activity is not the same chemically as inhaling a huge amount of nicotine and elevating your blood levels significantly. The first is what gives us enjoyment in life and is responsible for our drive and motivation to complete behaviors that benefit us. The second is some fake high taken in exogenous form in order to hijack natural signal pathways and manipulate them for instant gratification. Not the same thing. Maybe they would over there <- |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 1:33:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I spend quite a bit of my free time reading medical journal articles. https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124 |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 1:43:19 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Give this one a read: https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124 
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Posted: 10/2/2019 1:45:57 PM EDT
[#24]
The first is what gives us enjoyment in life and is responsible for our drive and motivation to complete behaviors that benefit us. The second is some fake high taken in exogenous form in order to hijack natural signal pathways and manipulate them for instant gratification. Not the same thing. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 4:13:24 PM EDT
[#25]
 Milton Friedman - Why Drugs Should Be Legalized Ill just leave this here. On a side note TAMU just banned vaping on campus, for the children. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 5:41:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're talking to me like I'm 10, but I've taken a course on psychopharmacology, 200 level psych course (psych 223 at UVM if you're interested). I got an A. If you want to read up and bring yourself up to my knowledge level, go read Ryan Vandrey's work. He was my psych 223 instructor and he's done a ton of work on addiction, especially with marijuana and nicotine. I've taken several 000 and 100 level psych courses. I spend quite a bit of my free time reading medical journal articles. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 5:56:00 PM EDT
[#27]
It doesn’t matter how many people die from vaping. It’ll never come within 1% of the 1,300 people that die EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. from smoking regular cigarettes.
If I were a smoker, I know which one I’d choose. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 5:58:16 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just found my new favorite copypasta. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 6:05:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're talking to me like I'm 10, but I've taken a course on psychopharmacology, 200 level psych course (psych 223 at UVM if you're interested). I got an A. If you want to read up and bring yourself up to my knowledge level, go read Ryan Vandrey's work. He was my psych 223 instructor and he's done a ton of work on addiction, especially with marijuana and nicotine. I've taken several 000 and 100 level psych courses. I spend quite a bit of my free time reading medical journal articles. Here's where my psych 223 instructor has ended up 15 years later. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/profiles/results/directory/profile/0656049/ryan-vandrey https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2123150930_Ryan_G_Vandrey I digress. Feeling compelled to engage in an enjoyful activity is not the same chemically as inhaling a huge amount of nicotine and elevating your blood levels significantly. The first is what gives us enjoyment in life and is responsible for our drive and motivation to complete behaviors that benefit us. The second is some fake high taken in exogenous form in order to hijack natural signal pathways and manipulate them for instant gratification. Not the same thing. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 6:57:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just found my new favorite copypasta. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You're talking to me like I'm 10, but I've taken a course on psychopharmacology, 200 level psych course (psych 223 at UVM if you're interested). I got an A. If you want to read up and bring yourself up to my knowledge level, go read Ryan Vandrey's work. He was my psych 223 instructor and he's done a ton of work on addiction, especially with marijuana and nicotine. I've taken several 000 and 100 level psych courses. I spend quite a bit of my free time reading medical journal articles.
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Posted: 10/2/2019 7:41:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just found my new favorite copypasta. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You're talking to me like I'm 10, but I've taken a course on psychopharmacology, 200 level psych course (psych 223 at UVM if you're interested). I got an A. If you want to read up and bring yourself up to my knowledge level, go read Ryan Vandrey's work. He was my psych 223 instructor and he's done a ton of work on addiction, especially with marijuana and nicotine. I've taken several 000 and 100 level psych courses. I spend quite a bit of my free time reading medical journal articles.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 7:52:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You didn't refute shit because you intentionally ignored the most important part of my post, which I've highlighted in red. You argue like a Democrat. Probably just wants to give the ATF more reasons to murder women and children. 
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Posted: 10/2/2019 7:55:03 PM EDT
[#33]
OP is a statist of the highest level.
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Posted: 10/2/2019 7:55:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just found my new favorite copypasta. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You're talking to me like I'm 10, but I've taken a course on psychopharmacology, 200 level psych course (psych 223 at UVM if you're interested). I got an A. If you want to read up and bring yourself up to my knowledge level, go read Ryan Vandrey's work. He was my psych 223 instructor and he's done a ton of work on addiction, especially with marijuana and nicotine. I've taken several 000 and 100 level psych courses. I spend quite a bit of my free time reading medical journal articles. |
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Posted: 10/2/2019 7:57:48 PM EDT
[#35]
It's a Jake Leg Vape
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Posted: 10/3/2019 1:30:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just found my new favorite copypasta. 
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Posted: 10/3/2019 1:38:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Welcome to you are doom." Someone didn't pay attention in school Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I just found my new favorite copypasta. 
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Posted: 10/3/2019 2:32:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is the whole point of that episode. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 4:31:01 AM EDT
[#39]
Death toll reaches 16.
https://science.slashdot.org/story/19/10/02/2332201/lung-damage-from-vaping-resembles-chemical-burns-report-says The lung damage in some people who have become ill after vaping nicotine or marijuana products resembles a chemical burn, doctors from the Mayo Clinic reported on Wednesday. Their findings are based on samples of lung tissue from 17 patients around the country whose biopsy specimens were sent to Mayo to be examined under the microscope by experts in lung pathology. Two samples came from patients who died. The findings were published on Wednesday in The New England Journal of Medicine and involved samples from 13 men and four women whose ages ranged from 19 to 67. About 70 percent had a history of vaping marijuana or cannabis oils. Eleven were in Arizona, five in Minnesota and one in Florida.
Medical investigators have been unable to identify exactly what is causing the lung damage, or even how many harmful substances are involved. They do not know whether the source is the liquids being vaped, or a toxin released from the materials used to make vaping devices. It is also unclear whether some devices used in vaping may be defective. But Dr. Brandon T. Larsen, a surgical pathologist at the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Ariz, said the Mayo researchers saw no signs of oil accumulating in the lung tissue. Instead, they saw many immune cells called macrophages with what he described as "the fine, foamy-looking appearance that is characteristic of chemical injuries." "So maybe we need to look more closely at the chemical compounds, and not just oils, but the chemical constituents, to figure out which ones are injurious," Dr. Larsen said. "All 17 of our cases show a pattern of injury in the lung that looks like a toxic chemical exposure, a toxic chemical fume exposure, or a chemical burn injury," said Dr. Brandon T. Larsen, a surgical pathologist at the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Ariz. "To be honest, they look like the kind of change you would expect to see in an unfortunate worker in an industrial accident where a big barrel of toxic chemicals spills, and that person is exposed to toxic fumes and there is a chemical burn in the airways." Dr. Larsen likened the injuries to those seen in people exposed to poisons like mustard gas, a chemical weapon used in World War I. associated lung injury, as has been proposed" https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMc1913069/suppl_file/nejmc1913069_appendix.pdf While they say the oil carrier theory can't be ruled out, they didn't see any evidence of it. More than 800 cases of lung illness in 46 states have been linked to vaping, and 16 people have died. The majority have vaped THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, but some say they have vaped only nicotine. There goes the marijuana only theory. My vape doesn't activate p53 theory still holds water |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 6:34:30 AM EDT
[#40]
If I've read correctly so far, all the info on whether or not people have used THC products or only nicotine, have come from surveying the sick people? If so, that leaves the possibility that they simply lied. Not wanting to admit you've used THC products, wouldn't be unrealistic, for various reasons.
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Posted: 10/3/2019 7:05:10 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Death toll reaches 16. https://science.slashdot.org/story/19/10/02/2332201/lung-damage-from-vaping-resembles-chemical-burns-report-says From the study " None of the cases showed granulomatous inflammation, and none showed histologic evidence of exogenous lipoid pneumonia. (...) Notably, none of our cases showed histologic features of exogenous lipoid pneumonia, calling into question the diagnostic utility of identifying lipid-laden macrophages or performing oil red O staining on bronchioloalveolar lavage fluid as a marker of vaping- associated lung injury, as has been proposed" https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMc1913069/suppl_file/nejmc1913069_appendix.pdf While they say the oil carrier theory can't be ruled out, they didn't see any evidence of it. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/02/health/vaping-illnesses.html There goes the marijuana only theory. My vape doesn't activate p53 theory still holds water Quote HistoryQuoted:
Death toll reaches 16. https://science.slashdot.org/story/19/10/02/2332201/lung-damage-from-vaping-resembles-chemical-burns-report-says The lung damage in some people who have become ill after vaping nicotine or marijuana products resembles a chemical burn, doctors from the Mayo Clinic reported on Wednesday. Their findings are based on samples of lung tissue from 17 patients around the country whose biopsy specimens were sent to Mayo to be examined under the microscope by experts in lung pathology. Two samples came from patients who died. The findings were published on Wednesday in The New England Journal of Medicine and involved samples from 13 men and four women whose ages ranged from 19 to 67. About 70 percent had a history of vaping marijuana or cannabis oils. Eleven were in Arizona, five in Minnesota and one in Florida.
Medical investigators have been unable to identify exactly what is causing the lung damage, or even how many harmful substances are involved. They do not know whether the source is the liquids being vaped, or a toxin released from the materials used to make vaping devices. It is also unclear whether some devices used in vaping may be defective. But Dr. Brandon T. Larsen, a surgical pathologist at the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Ariz, said the Mayo researchers saw no signs of oil accumulating in the lung tissue. Instead, they saw many immune cells called macrophages with what he described as "the fine, foamy-looking appearance that is characteristic of chemical injuries." "So maybe we need to look more closely at the chemical compounds, and not just oils, but the chemical constituents, to figure out which ones are injurious," Dr. Larsen said. "All 17 of our cases show a pattern of injury in the lung that looks like a toxic chemical exposure, a toxic chemical fume exposure, or a chemical burn injury," said Dr. Brandon T. Larsen, a surgical pathologist at the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, Ariz. "To be honest, they look like the kind of change you would expect to see in an unfortunate worker in an industrial accident where a big barrel of toxic chemicals spills, and that person is exposed to toxic fumes and there is a chemical burn in the airways." Dr. Larsen likened the injuries to those seen in people exposed to poisons like mustard gas, a chemical weapon used in World War I. associated lung injury, as has been proposed" https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMc1913069/suppl_file/nejmc1913069_appendix.pdf While they say the oil carrier theory can't be ruled out, they didn't see any evidence of it. More than 800 cases of lung illness in 46 states have been linked to vaping, and 16 people have died. The majority have vaped THC, the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, but some say they have vaped only nicotine. There goes the marijuana only theory. My vape doesn't activate p53 theory still holds water |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:28:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I've read correctly so far, all the info on whether or not people have used THC products or only nicotine, have come from surveying the sick people? If so, that leaves the possibility that they simply lied. Not wanting to admit you've used THC products, wouldn't be unrealistic, for various reasons. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:30:32 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People lie. Especially about health problems they might get in trouble over. I'm sure you've figured it out and all the doctors and scientists are just being fooled. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:41:18 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're talking to me like I'm 10, but I've taken a course on psychopharmacology, 200 level psych course (psych 223 at UVM if you're interested). I got an A. If you want to read up and bring yourself up to my knowledge level, go read Ryan Vandrey's work. He was my psych 223 instructor and he's done a ton of work on addiction, especially with marijuana and nicotine. I've taken several 000 and 100 level psych courses. I spend quite a bit of my free time reading medical journal articles. Here's where my psych 223 instructor has ended up 15 years later. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/profiles/results/directory/profile/0656049/ryan-vandrey https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2123150930_Ryan_G_Vandrey I digress. Feeling compelled to engage in an enjoyful activity is not the same chemically as inhaling a huge amount of nicotine and elevating your blood levels significantly. The first is what gives us enjoyment in life and is responsible for our drive and motivation to complete behaviors that benefit us. The second is some fake high taken in exogenous form in order to hijack natural signal pathways and manipulate them for instant gratification. Not the same thing. Lots of juice on your reference..... But... Who are you, who is he, to do more than relay info for consumption and use? Who are you, who is he to dictate at the point of a gun that people need to live the way they say? Who are you, who is he....to be making decisions for others? That's where I get off the bus. Great, educate people....that's good. But when your "education" is done forcibly at the point of the government's gun....fuck that. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:43:38 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was using 50mg/mL nic salts. That's a pretty average concentration for closed pod systems like Juuls and whatnot. I was using it in a rebuildable tank system at low power. Bout the same output as a closed pod system. But even trying lower concentrations made me cough. I regularly use 6mg/mL freebase nic in a rebuildable tank system at medium power. That's pretty average, too. That's the type of setup I've been using for the majority of my vaping experience. For comparison, one traditional cigarette contains, on average, 12mg of nicotine. But nicotine is absorbed differently depending on what form its in. Nic salts are absorbed quicker in your body and has a longer lasting effect than freebase nic. You generally take much smaller hits with high mg nic salts than you do freebase nic, yet still get a bigger, faster "nic buzz". That's why nic salts are so popular. In theory, you can take a few quick pulls and be satisfied for awhile. So that's less juice consumption (less $), and less time you need to actually be taking hits to satisfy nicotine cravings. With my 6mg freebase setup, if I step out to get my nic fix, I will be taking in quite a bit more vapor than if I were to use 50mg nic salts, to feel satisfied. I'm kinda surprised that tests show lower nicotine levels in your blood with ejuice than with traditional cigarettes. Given the difference in nicotine concentration. But like I said, nicotine is absorbed differently depending on what form it's in. So I suppose that accounts for it. Its also interesting how the freebase nicotine via smoking has a very high level of transfer into the blood, whereas with vaping it does not seem to get into the bloodstream nearly as well. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:44:42 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If we legalized heroin, its use would be even higher. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: That comment was made in reference to legalization, the line of reasoning being that laws aren't what keep the vast majority of people from doing heroin, nor do they stop the people who would choose to partake. The fact that heroin use is on the rise despite being illegal is actually counter to some of your arguments in this thread. Banning something can actually increase interest in it. Just look how interest in evil black rifles surged after the AWB. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:45:11 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have any evidence of this? Or are you just unwilling to accept that some of these cases are caused by nicotine vaping? Makes us very very very wary of anything said about this right now. Roll this back to just science with no tax, regulating, or profit motivations.... might have got somewhere. Now..... everyone is going to dig their feet in because it's obvious that this is a money grab, at least from government and tobacco. If they actually gave a shit about us, they'd ban smoking tobacco and leave only vaping legal....if you look at only the numbers of lives saved, vaping is way better, especially as you look at large populations instead of individuals. 400k deaths per year is a pretty large number to reach to be as bad as tobacco. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:50:51 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't matter how many people die from vaping. It'll never come within 1% of the 1,300 people that die EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. from smoking regular cigarettes. If I were a smoker, I know which one I'd choose. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:54:27 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have any evidence of this? Or are you just unwilling to accept that some of these cases are caused by nicotine vaping? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If I've read correctly so far, all the info on whether or not people have used THC products or only nicotine, have come from surveying the sick people? If so, that leaves the possibility that they simply lied. Not wanting to admit you've used THC products, wouldn't be unrealistic, for various reasons. But am I right in that all the "THC vs no THC" information has come from simply surveying the sick people? If so, do you not believe, or are you unwilling to accept, that there are many situations where someone might lie when asked "Have you used any THC vape products?"? I won't rule out the possibility that some of these people have truly only used nicotine products. But I also won't rule out the possibility that people lied. Why would you, or anyone, rule out the possibility that people lied, when in this specific situation, there could be many reasons why someone would lie. A teen's parent is in the room when the doctor asks about THC, an adult is worried about work related or legal repercussions, etc. These are valid possibilities. |
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Posted: 10/3/2019 8:59:54 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you think your cough, if you kept going with the salt nicotine, would have ended up like some of these patients? This is interesting and I wonder if it might be a glimpse at the cause. Its also interesting how the freebase nicotine via smoking has a very high level of transfer into the blood, whereas with vaping it does not seem to get into the bloodstream nearly as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I was using 50mg/mL nic salts. That's a pretty average concentration for closed pod systems like Juuls and whatnot. I was using it in a rebuildable tank system at low power. Bout the same output as a closed pod system. But even trying lower concentrations made me cough. I regularly use 6mg/mL freebase nic in a rebuildable tank system at medium power. That's pretty average, too. That's the type of setup I've been using for the majority of my vaping experience. For comparison, one traditional cigarette contains, on average, 12mg of nicotine. But nicotine is absorbed differently depending on what form its in. Nic salts are absorbed quicker in your body and has a longer lasting effect than freebase nic. You generally take much smaller hits with high mg nic salts than you do freebase nic, yet still get a bigger, faster "nic buzz". That's why nic salts are so popular. In theory, you can take a few quick pulls and be satisfied for awhile. So that's less juice consumption (less $), and less time you need to actually be taking hits to satisfy nicotine cravings. With my 6mg freebase setup, if I step out to get my nic fix, I will be taking in quite a bit more vapor than if I were to use 50mg nic salts, to feel satisfied. I'm kinda surprised that tests show lower nicotine levels in your blood with ejuice than with traditional cigarettes. Given the difference in nicotine concentration. But like I said, nicotine is absorbed differently depending on what form it's in. So I suppose that accounts for it. Its also interesting how the freebase nicotine via smoking has a very high level of transfer into the blood, whereas with vaping it does not seem to get into the bloodstream nearly as well. |
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